As kind of a spinoff of the topic about control cities, what are some control "cities" that aren't actually cities? I'm talking here about major destinations on freeways, not just exit signs for surface roads. I know the Chicago area uses states a lot-Indiana, Iowa, Wisconsin and I think even Ohio all appear as control "cities" on some roads there. I don't know anywhere else that uses states so frequently for control cities. I do know of at least one other place that does it-I-635 from I-29 in Missouri is signed as just "Kansas"-probably to make it clear that it goes into Kansas since I-29 is already in Kansas City(Missouri) at that point.
Another one I know of is "Delaware Water Gap" for I-80 WB in New Jersey. One of my favorites is the short stub of I-8 W. of I-5 in San Diego being signed as simply "Beaches".
Quote from: huskeroadgeek on February 13, 2011, 03:08:47 PM
As kind of a spinoff of the topic about control cities, what are some control "cities" that aren't actually cities? I'm talking here about major destinations on freeways, not just exit signs for surface roads. I know the Chicago area uses states a lot-Indiana, Iowa, Wisconsin and I think even Ohio all appear as control "cities" on some roads there. I don't know anywhere else that uses states so frequently for control cities. I do know of at least one other place that does it-I-635 from I-29 in Missouri is signed as just "Kansas"-probably to make it clear that it goes into Kansas since I-29 is already in Kansas City(Missouri) at that point.
Another one I know of is "Delaware Water Gap" for I-80 WB in New Jersey. One of my favorites is the short stub of I-8 W. of I-5 in San Diego being signed as simply "Beaches".
Actually, there's a very small, but incorporated, town in Pennsylvania called "Delaware Water Gap." Right at the first exit. But I'm guessing that's not what they mean.
New Jersey has lots of "Shore Points"es.
"Del Mem Br" (Delaware Memorial Bridge) on I-295 southbound in New Jersey, once you're too far south for "Camden" to work.
"NJ -NY" where I-295 forks of 95 northbound in Delaware.
"Airport, Sports Complex" on I-76 eastbound in Philadelphia.
Va Beach has "Oceanfront" and "Va BeachOceanfront" on I-264 EB in Va Beach
and then of course Tysons Corner for the I-495/Capital Beltway Inner Loop from I-95/395 in VA
Quoteand then of course Tysons Corner for the I-495/Capital Beltway Inner Loop from I-95/395 in VA
Arguable. While not officially a city, it's a CDP (Census Designated Place) and very much urbanized.
More appropriate would be the "Northern Virginia" used for the Outer Loop in Montgomery County.
Sticking with the DC theme, I was on the George Washington Parkway yesterday and noticed that at the end it uses "Virginia" and "Maryland" for I-495 southbound and northbound respectively.
There's an exit off of Southern Parkway that lies just barely north of the Utah-Arizona border (as in the southern on- and off-ramps would be in Arizona if placed any further south). On the westbound off-ramp, there's a sign that directs you to left to Arizona, or right to Utah (I really wish I had a picture of this). Rather ambiguous, but there you have it.
On I-65 south bound, the last exit for the I-10 interchange uses MISSISSIPPI and FLORIDA for control points.
In Ruston, LA: when approaching the I-20 interchange on US 167 south, the control point sign has 2 cities and one town:
MONROE (for I-20 east) GRAMBLING and SHREVEPORT (for I-20 west)
The Grambling exit is 4 miles from here (POP: just over 1100 *I think*). The only thing in Grambling that gives the town a reason to exist is Grambling State University. There is no mention of Grambling on any other sign at this interchange (north or south). The only other place Grambling is used as a control point is I-20 west when passing the Choudrant exit, 6 miles east of Ruston. It is on a mileage sign:
RUSTON 5
GRAMBLING 11
SHREVEPORT 73
I-81 north of Watertown, NY: Canada.
Oregon uses "Ocean Beaches" as a control city on a lot of the routes heading to the coast from the Willamette Valley.
-Some signs alone the Massachusetts Turnpike list NH-Maine as a control city for both I-495 and I-95.
-Signs along I-95 in New Hampshire list "To All Maine Points"
-Signs along I-95 southbound in southern Maine list both New Hampshire and Massachusetts as control cities.
-The control city "Seacoast" can be seen as a control city for many routes heading south/eastward in New Hampshire
-"Points South" can be seen on signs along I-295 southbound approaching exit 11 (I-95) in Maine
Exit 116 on I-75 in South Florida has a control city of "Gulf Beaches."
Michigan uses "Mackinac Bridge" on I-75.
I-55 Nbd in Chicago has a control of "Lake Shore Drive" starting at the Ryan. Then there's the control of "O'Hare" on the Tri-State Twy, I-190, and Kennedy Expy. And let's not forget the stellar controls of "Northwest Suburbs", "West Suburbs", and "Southwest Suburbs" for I-355. IL-53 has a control of "North Suburbs" as well.
Downtown St. Louis has "Illinois" on I-70/64/55
WB I-94 at 95th st has "Chicago Loop"
I-10 Eb east of San Bernardino 'Other Desert Cities'
CA 91 Wb 'Beach Cities'
If I may be permitted to internationalize this, England has lots of signs saying things like "The NORTH" or "The SOUTH WEST" - capitalized thus.
I-605-'THRU TRAFFIC'.
I-84 East in Danbury, CT has a control city of New York State...I know that from the Saw Mill Parkway South onto I-87/I-287 has Albany listed and the Tappan Zee Bridge...
Plus the signs on I-29 at Soiux Falls that dont have control cities at I-90.
Quote from: PennDOTFan on February 13, 2011, 09:42:50 PM
-Some signs alone the Massachusetts Turnpike list NH-Maine as a control city for both I-495 and I-95.
this can be found at other on-ramps to 495 and 95 as well. I think route 140 at 495 has it, for example.
Quote from: cu2010 on February 13, 2011, 07:44:15 PM
I-81 north of Watertown, NY: Canada.
related: Alberta 43 heading out of Edmonton has a control city of Alaska, because it connects to BC-2, which connects to the Alaska Highway.
Edmonton was a major staging point for Alaska-bound traffic, so it is sometimes considered the beginning of the Alaska Highway. But the road to Dawson Creek had already existed - the brand new Alaska Highway, as built during World War II, started at Dawson Creek.
(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/AB/AB19340021i1.jpg)
(not quite sure what the relationship is between old AB-2 and current AB-43 but 2 also runs through Edmonton...)
Last US 2 exit on I-89 NB: Lake Champlain Islands.
Quote from: xonhulu on February 13, 2011, 09:22:52 PM
Oregon uses "Ocean Beaches" as a control city on a lot of the routes heading to the coast from the Willamette Valley.
In a few cases, "Oregon Coast" had replaced "Ocean Beaches" as a control city.
"Airport" seems to be a pretty common one.
Some parts of I-70 in Columbus have "Downtown".
Quote from: Central Avenue on February 14, 2011, 02:16:58 AM
"Airport" seems to be a pretty common one.
Some parts of I-70 in Columbus have "Downtown".
"Downtown" is seen a lot on signs leading to interstate spurs.
More Chicago examples:
I-80, I-90, I-94 East: Indiana
I-90, I-94 West: Wisconsin
At least they were there from my childhood there.
"Kentucky" is used in a few places along the freeways in Cincinnati.
The ramp from US 50 to I-275 in Indiana uses "Ohio" and "Kentucky."
On I-430 at its interchange with I-630 in western Little Rock, the BGSs had listed as control cities for I-630 as: "Baptist Med Center - University Ave."
Quote from: hbelkins on February 14, 2011, 11:24:03 AM
"Kentucky" is used in a few places along the freeways in Cincinnati.
The ramp from US 50 to I-275 in Indiana uses "Ohio" and "Kentucky."
Probably the most clever signing method out there! :)
similarly, I-710 northbound alternates its control city between the pipe dream of Pasadena, and its actual terminus of Valley Blvd.
Quote from: Henry on February 14, 2011, 08:24:30 AM
Quote from: Central Avenue on February 14, 2011, 02:16:58 AM
"Airport" seems to be a pretty common one.
Some parts of I-70 in Columbus have "Downtown".
"Downtown" is seen a lot on signs leading to interstate spurs.
More Chicago examples:
I-80, I-90, I-94 East: Indiana
I-90, I-94 West: Wisconsin
At least they were there from my childhood there.
They still are.
I-94 at I-90 (Skyway)
Chicago Skyway
To Indiana Toll Rd
Any Chicago Expressway inside the Tri-State says Chicago Loop (Especially if you're inside the Chicago city limits.)
I-90 West at I-294/I-190
Chicago - O'Hare (on the same line)
I-90 at I-290 north terminus:
Northwest Suburbs, Southwest Suburbs
I-90/94 at I-290 east terminus:
West Suburbs
Chicago Loop (even though you're right there) - NOTE: Congress Pkwy is also shown
Tri-State west at I-80 west
Iowa
I-80/94 at Indiana Toll Road (Can't remember, but I believe I-65 has it too):
Indiana Toll Road
I-90/94 at I-55
Eastbound has "Lake Shore Dr", but the expressway is NOT Lake Shore Drive.
In Dubuque, IA
US 20 West at US-52/US-61/US-151 has Illinois for US 20. US-52/US-61/US-151 has no control point in either direction.
PA Turnpike:
Used to have signs saying "Ohio and West" (They really do hate Cleveland)
Ohio Turnpike:
Main roadway shows "THRU TRAFFIC"
Exit lane shows "Exit Only"
NOTE: This is on older signs.
Quote from: Master son on February 14, 2011, 11:33:06 AM
Quote from: Henry on February 14, 2011, 08:24:30 AM
Quote from: Central Avenue on February 14, 2011, 02:16:58 AM
"Airport" seems to be a pretty common one.
Some parts of I-70 in Columbus have "Downtown".
"Downtown" is seen a lot on signs leading to interstate spurs.
More Chicago examples:
I-80, I-90, I-94 East: Indiana
I-90, I-94 West: Wisconsin
At least they were there from my childhood there.
They still are.
I-94 at I-90 (Skyway)
Chicago Skyway
To Indiana Toll Rd
Any Chicago Expressway inside the Tri-State says Chicago Loop (Especially if you're inside the Chicago city limits.)
I-90 West at I-294/I-190
Chicago - O'Hare (on the same line)
I-90 at I-290 north terminus:
Northwest Suburbs, Southwest Suburbs
I-90/94 at I-290 east terminus:
West Suburbs
Chicago Loop (even though you're right there) - NOTE: Congress Pkwy is also shown
Tri-State west at I-80 west
Iowa
I-80/94 at Indiana Toll Road (Can't remember, but I believe I-65 has it too):
Indiana Toll Road
I-90/94 at I-55
Eastbound has "Lake Shore Dr", but the expressway is NOT Lake Shore Drive.
In Dubuque, IA
US 20 West at US-52/US-61/US-151 has Illinois for US 20. US-52/US-61/US-151 has no control point in either direction.
PA Turnpike:
Used to have signs saying "Ohio and West" (They really do hate Cleveland)
Ohio Turnpike:
Main roadway shows "THRU TRAFFIC"
Exit lane shows "Exit Only"
NOTE: This is on older signs.
Who hates Cleveland? There's actually a "Pittsburgh, Cleveland" for through traffic where I-70 leaves the Turnpike at New Stanton.
That "Ohio and West" was paired with "New Jersey and East" (or "New Jersey and New York," which boils down to the same thing if you're far enough north; if you're not, you get wet.)
Westbound entrances, well at least one of them, in the Philadelphia area used to say "Harrisburg, Pittsburgh and Ohio." After that, the "Harrisburg" they use today just seems inadequate.
haha - that's supposed to be a joke (You'd get it if you were a Steelers fan)
In Vermont, the only control city that is an actual city is Newport. Brattleboro and St J are not classified as "cities", and White River Junction is an "unincorporated village/CDP".
(perhaps I've read too much into the definition of a "city")
On I-89, Montpelier, Barre, Burlington, and St Albans are all cities. WRJ to the south (same as above), and of course, CANADA is used further up.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on February 14, 2011, 11:29:44 AM
similarly, I-710 northbound alternates its control city between the pipe dream of Pasadena, and its actual terminus of Valley Blvd.
I-280 in San Francisco (east of US 101) has its northbound control city as "Sixth Street"
"Mountain Resorts" can be found on eastbound Route 210 and for northbound Route 330 in San Bernardino.
While in Texas, I-45 in Galveston has "East Beach" as its control City in addtion to Downtown. In San Antonio, some freeways leading into downtown have "The Alamo" as a supplemental control city. SH 151 has "Sea World" as its westbound control city.
Not a "control city" but many old mileage signs in SW Virginia use "W VA Turnpike" as an upcoming "city", rather than "Princeton". You still see these on US 460, US 52, and US 19 throughout the area. A remnant from the era when, if you were traveling in SW Virginia (and through traffic did not, much) the then two lane Turnpike was actually better than the local roads you were on. An era that ended in the very early 70s.
^^^Arkansas does the same thing also. They will use SR, US, and interstate junctions on their mileage signs.
I know Ohio uses route number on mileage signs as well.
Here are some examples:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2699%2F4227305867_373181039b.jpg&hash=e7493654db8a4e1eda1842a55a1fb6a32b0b1ed9) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mightyace/4227305867/)
20091224 I-71 N @ MM 29-C (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mightyace/4227305867/) by mightyace (http://www.flickr.com/people/mightyace/), on Flickr
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2763%2F4283636335_869913a87e.jpg&hash=b0996fded345c5e4b281796443f6178aefeca75c) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mightyace/4283636335/)
20091224 I-71 N @ MM 38-C (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mightyace/4283636335/) by mightyace (http://www.flickr.com/people/mightyace/), on Flickr
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2705%2F4283636595_2e6c09c4a1.jpg&hash=480beff6cbff80ffaceb9b8a61c9a0580c59eba3) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mightyace/4283636595/)
20091224 I-71 N @ MM 45-C (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mightyace/4283636595/) by mightyace (http://www.flickr.com/people/mightyace/), on Flickr
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2776%2F4283624885_1357c246d8.jpg&hash=7c34ca49b54b49c38ddc7b5a9bfdc091c6dd3920) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mightyace/4283624885/)
20091224 I-71 N @ MM 80-C (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mightyace/4283624885/) by mightyace (http://www.flickr.com/people/mightyace/), on Flickr
Considering CalTrans's love of using the city name within city limits as control city (in lieu of "downtown") it is actually more surprising when downtown IS used as the control city itself, as is the case with Route 163 south in San Diego!
Other examples in this state:
- Bay Bridge and Golden Gate Bridge on I-80 and US 101 respectively in San Francisco
- "Port of SF" and downtown for I-280 north at the Alemany Maze
- Civic Center for US 101 in San Francisco
- Echo Park for Route 2 north in Los Angeles
- LAX Airport for I-105 west
- SF International Airport for I-380 east
- "Other Desert Cities" on I-10 east
- San Mateo Bridge on Route 92 and Dumbarton Bridge on Route 84
For I-110 in Baton Rouge at I-10:
Downtown (formerly "Business District")
Metro Airport
In New Orleans, US 90B uses "Westbank" (as in west bank of the Mississippi River) as a control point.
LA 47/Paris Road northbound at I-10 uses "Little Woods" which is a neighborhood of eastern New Orleans as opposed to a separate city.
Also "Huey P Long Bridge" is used in various places around the area, most prominently at Clearview Parkway @ I-10.
I haven't been to New Orleans in a while, but I think "Vieux Carre" is still used for the French Quarter on I-10 westbound.
The exits for Briley Parkway (TN 155) on I-65 and on the east side of town on I-40 used to have "Opryland" on them before recent rebuilding projects, IIRC.
Of course, the Opryland theme park has been gone for many years now, though the Opryland Hotel and Grand Old Opry still exist.
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How's this for one? The control city is another Interstate!
In Great Britain, we have a list of "primary destinations", which function as control destinations on major roads. Because of the legal differences between city status in the UK (a royal charter is needed, and not often given - normally some special event is needed, like the year 2000 or 50 years of the Queen's reign, which were the last two times city status was granted - and they gave it to an unprecedented 7 places, bringing the total to 66), I'll count those places that have town charters as cities and because I can't be bothered to see whether small welsh and Scottish places have town charters, I'll leave off those places that are small settlements that are at road junctions
de jure: Channel Tunnel, Heathrow Airport, Gatwick Airport, Stansted Airport, Manchester Airport, Dartford Crossing, Tyne Tunnel, Humber Bridge, Tay Bridge, Forth Bridge, Erskine Bridge, Scotch Corner.
de facto: Birmingham Airport & National Exhibition Centre, Glasgow Airport, Liverpool Airport, Blackwall Tunnel
possible de facto (includes Northern Ireland as there's no list I've seen for there): East Midlands Airport, Prestwick Airport, Belfast International Airport, Belfast City Airport.
In addition, we have regional destinations, a lot of which are compass points (The NORTH, The NORTH EAST, The NORTH WEST, The SOUTH, The SOUTH WEST, The WEST, The EAST), so function a bit like the cardinal directions on US signage, however there are others that don't: NORTH WALES, SCOTLAND, SOUTH WALES, The LAKES, The MIDLANDS, Mid WALES (unofficial) and ENGLAND (unofficial and only appears on a couple of signs).
----
Reading the Irish Road sign manual earlier, they use 'terminal destinations' (and on more minor roads, such as those that go around the coast, additional intermediate destinations). On Motorways and National Roads, the following aren't settlements or roads: Dublin Port, Dublin Airport, Cork Airport, Belview Port (near Waterford).
AASHTO maintains an official list of control cities over here too, but not for three-digit interstates. Plus, if states wish to deviate from the official list, nothing happens...
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 16, 2011, 11:10:56 AM
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How's this for one? The control city is another Interstate!
I actually don't understand this one - is it to avoid confusion, or some other reason? Why not just a "to 270" next to the 255 shield?
Edit: Okay, I think I understand it at least a little bit: 255 loops around to 270, but to the south of the city. Some few miles back the upper half of 270 had exited, so a "to 270" there might be confusing. But so would the "Interstate 270" control city. Ugh.
Maybe it's because Memphis is in one direction and I-270 is the other? Kind of silly if they only did that to guarantee one control point in each direction...
I totally forgot about my current school ;-)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi622.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ftt304%2F24DIDNOTWIN%2FUS460WESTATUS460BUSINESSEXITS5A-B.jpg&hash=eaace8457a41b5c1b1031b764ce94098a9c45aac)
Years ago at the entrance ramp from Business US 20 State St. in Rockford to I-90 NW Tollway, there used to be signs that said 'Wisconsin and North' and 'Chicago and East'. I am sure they have been changed when I-90 was rebuilt thru there.
Also, when I-355 was extended, the first signs for the control cities on I-55 just said 'Suburbs'. They (IDOT) have since covered that in a green blank. At the actually exit, they now say 'Northwest Suburbs' and 'Southwest Suburbs'.
On IL 50 Cicero Ave Southbound at I-294, there are 2 different signs. The one on the gantry says 'West Suburbs' and the one posted on the ground says 'Wisconsin'.
The Indiana Toll Road uses 'Ohio' for it's eastbound control city and not South Bend or Toledo or Cleveland.
The control cities for I-794 in Milwaukee are 'Lakefront' and 'Port of Milw.'
Quote from: RustyK on February 16, 2011, 12:05:13 PM
I actually don't understand this one - is it to avoid confusion, or some other reason? Why not just a "to 270" next to the 255 shield?
Edit: Okay, I think I understand it at least a little bit: 255 loops around to 270, but to the south of the city. Some few miles back the upper half of 270 had exited, so a "to 270" there might be confusing. But so would the "Interstate 270" control city. Ugh.
I-270 is where IL-255 becomes I-255. I favor "Alton" as the control city for Nbd traffic (and "Collinsville" for Sbd IL-255). Right now, it switches from "Interstate 270" to "Wood River" at I-270 for Nbd traffic, and from "Interstate 270" to "Memphis" for Sbd traffic.
Quote from: hobsini2 on February 16, 2011, 12:27:46 PM
Also, when I-355 was extended, the first signs for the control cities on I-55 just said 'Suburbs'. They (IDOT) have since covered that in a green blank. At the actually exit, they now say 'Northwest Suburbs' and 'Southwest Suburbs'.
Yeah, that one's struck me as bizarre from the beginning. You'd think "Schaumburg" and "New Lenox" might make better controls at I-55.
Quote from: Brandon on February 16, 2011, 12:44:41 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on February 16, 2011, 12:27:46 PM
Also, when I-355 was extended, the first signs for the control cities on I-55 just said 'Suburbs'. They (IDOT) have since covered that in a green blank. At the actually exit, they now say 'Northwest Suburbs' and 'Southwest Suburbs'.
Yeah, that one's struck me as bizarre from the beginning. You'd think "Schaumburg" and "New Lenox" might make better controls at I-55.
I agree with Schaumburg but i would have used South Suburbs instead of New Lenox because New Lenox is not that big and more people use the "extension" as an alternate way to get to Indiana and I-57. But, if 355 is ever extended to I-57, then make it Kankakee.
Quote from: Grzrd on February 15, 2011, 09:23:42 PM
I haven't been to New Orleans in a while, but I think "Vieux Carre" is still used for the French Quarter on I-10 westbound.
You are correct. Also on I-10 west, you see on the guide signage from Carrollton to Causeway Blvd:
N O Intl Airport
Baton Rouge
There's Eastern LI for various exits onto I-495 (particularly in Nassau and NYC) and I believe there's a control area of "South Shore" for the exit off of I-495 for the southbound Sagtikos Pkwy.
Quote from: Michael in Philly on February 14, 2011, 11:43:12 AMWho hates Cleveland? There's actually a "Pittsburgh, Cleveland" for through traffic where I-70 leaves the Turnpike at New Stanton.
It's a mutual hatred stemming from the longest rivalry in the American Football Conference.
"Ohio and West" are used from Exit 57 heading west on 76, but "Youngstown OH" is used on I-79 and I-376 as a control city for the Turnpike.
Appropriately enough, the city with the second highest number of bridges behind Venice, Italy, has control bridges on the Interstates:
I-279 North
Fort Duquesne Bridge (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Pittsburgh,+PA&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Pittsburgh,+Allegheny,+Pennsylvania&ll=40.438937,-80.006921&spn=0.001915,0.004823&z=18&layer=c&cbll=40.438965,-80.006996&panoid=FufZFAId2NHMYbJdsiyNGQ&cbp=12,305.55,,0,-2.31)
I-579 South
Veterans Bridge (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Pittsburgh,+PA&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Pittsburgh,+Allegheny,+Pennsylvania&ll=40.457213,-79.998719&spn=0.001898,0.004823&z=18&layer=c&cbll=40.457303,-79.998757&panoid=y9Uz5Tj2X8qxpBR8PMMEmw&cbp=12,157.77,,0,-7.01)
Liberty Bridge (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Pittsburgh,+PA&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Pittsburgh,+Allegheny,+Pennsylvania&ll=40.441807,-79.99411&spn=0.001898,0.004823&z=18&layer=c&cbll=40.441845,-79.994231&panoid=zV5HAPUWcPn_CJbEOnZAmQ&cbp=12,117.43,,0,-5.31)
Quote from: 74/171FAN on February 16, 2011, 12:15:21 PM
I totally forgot about my current school ;-)
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Exit 84 on I-20 here in Louisiana used to have Louisiana Tech University as the control point. Exit 81 used to have Grambling State Univ. listed underneath Grambling (town's name) as control points (w/o the LA 149 shield). But when they poured new concrete between Ruston and Grambling in the early 90s, all of the signs were changed. Exit 81 just had Grambling listed as the control point (with the LA 149 shield added), and exit 84 wound up with Ruston listed as the control point. Both schools are still mentioned on smaller BGSs about a mile and a half from their respective exits.
Quote from: 74/171FAN on February 16, 2011, 12:15:21 PM
I totally forgot about my current school ;-)
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That's fairly new, isn't it? Didn't that sign used to say "Bluefield" (or maybe "Bluefield, W. Va.?)
Quote from: PAHighways on February 16, 2011, 06:58:11 PM
Quote from: Michael in Philly on February 14, 2011, 11:43:12 AMWho hates Cleveland? There's actually a "Pittsburgh, Cleveland" for through traffic where I-70 leaves the Turnpike at New Stanton.
It's a mutual hatred stemming from the longest rivalry in the American Football Conference.
"Ohio and West" are used from Exit 57 heading west on 76, but "Youngstown OH" is used on I-79 and I-376 as a control city for the Turnpike.
Wouldn't the oldest rivalry in the AFC be the Steelers and Ravens? Just think about Cleveland's football history....
nah, it's the Steelers and Raiders. the Raiders are actually successful on occasion.
Quote from: Michael in Philly on February 17, 2011, 01:29:24 PMWouldn't the oldest rivalry in the AFC be the Steelers and Ravens? Just think about Cleveland's football history....
The Ravens have only been around since the 1996 NFL Season but ignoring the Browns' lack of success, Cleveland is closer than Baltimore.
Quote from: PAHighways on February 17, 2011, 01:51:26 PM
Quote from: Michael in Philly on February 17, 2011, 01:29:24 PMWouldn't the oldest rivalry in the AFC be the Steelers and Ravens? Just think about Cleveland's football history....
The Ravens have only been around since the 1996 NFL Season but ignoring the Browns' lack of success, Cleveland is closer than Baltimore.
I guess it just depends on how you treat the moving of a team. I was kind of surprised when I had heard that Art Modell was even nominated for the Hall Of Fame after that crap he pulled. (Especially with the H.O.F. just down I-77 from Cleveland).
Quote from: Mr_Northside on February 17, 2011, 01:57:28 PM
Quote from: PAHighways on February 17, 2011, 01:51:26 PM
Quote from: Michael in Philly on February 17, 2011, 01:29:24 PMWouldn't the oldest rivalry in the AFC be the Steelers and Ravens? Just think about Cleveland's football history....
The Ravens have only been around since the 1996 NFL Season but ignoring the Browns' lack of success, Cleveland is closer than Baltimore.
I guess it just depends on how you treat the moving of a team. I was kind of surprised when I had heard that Art Modell was even nominated for the Hall Of Fame after that crap he pulled. (Especially with the H.O.F. just down I-77 from Cleveland).
Nominated by the same folks who do the Irsays the same way Cleveland would do Modell.
Beyond that, Modell will never step inside the Football HOF while alive.
Quote from: Michael in Philly on February 17, 2011, 01:29:24 PM
Wouldn't the oldest rivalry in the AFC be the Steelers and Ravens? Just think about Cleveland's football history....
This or Pittsburgh-Cleveland is true for the AFC. But, I include the AFL in as well so you have things like:
Denver-KC, Jets - Bills - New England with Miami joining in later (but Miami may not count as they did become good until after the merger.
Quote from: hbelkins on February 17, 2011, 11:30:04 AM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on February 16, 2011, 12:15:21 PM
I totally forgot about my current school ;-)
That's fairly new, isn't it? Didn't that sign used to say "Bluefield" (or maybe "Bluefield, W. Va.?)
I'm sure it did and believe it should but I did not actually visit VT until about a year ago.
Goodfellow AFB here in Angelo..
Quote from: mightyace on February 17, 2011, 10:33:26 PM
Quote from: Michael in Philly on February 17, 2011, 01:29:24 PM
Wouldn't the oldest rivalry in the AFC be the Steelers and Ravens? Just think about Cleveland's football history....
This or Pittsburgh-Cleveland is true for the AFC. But, I include the AFL in as well so you have things like:
Denver-KC, Jets - Bills - New England with Miami joining in later (but Miami may not count as they did become good until after the merger.
Emphasis in the first post added by me.
Especially if we're talking about rivalries, then the Ravens are the Ravens, and the Browns are the Browns. The same fans who rooted for the Browns until 1995 root for the new Browns, and no one in Cleveland roots for the Ravens. Since I think it's the fans and the passion more than anything that determine a rivalry, that all had to start from scratch with the Ravens, but when the Browns came back, they picked up right where they left off.
So Steelers-Browns is definitely the oldest rivalry in the AFC, since they've been butting heads since the '40s. The old AFL teams didn't start until the '60s.
So arguing about the biggest rivalry in the AFC has nothing to do with control destinations..
BigMatt
southbound IL 255 (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=wood+river,+il&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Wood+River,+Madison,+Illinois&gl=us&t=h&layer=c&cbll=38.877738,-90.060553&panoid=44Aul09wPFuZszKgNS1GsQ&cbp=12,189.31,,0,5&ll=38.877625,-90.060613&spn=0.000898,0.005284&z=18)
Why can't we have both in the same direction
Also, IL 203 also uses it, and all of I-24 in Illinois has the northbound westbound control city for Interstate 57.
I-24 (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Goreville,+IL&aq=&sll=38.877737,-90.060554&sspn=0.002,0.005284&gl=us&g=Wood+River,+Madison,+Illinois&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Goreville,+Johnson,+Illinois&ll=37.447193,-88.88543&spn=0.00204,0.005284&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=37.447116,-88.885571&panoid=CZ6kxQvGXlJ2M6xYJuphUA&cbp=12,78.12,,0,5)
IL 203 North (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Granite+City,+IL&aq=2&sll=37.447117,-88.885569&sspn=0.00204,0.005284&gl=us&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Granite+City,+Madison,+Illinois&ll=38.750181,-90.104054&spn=0.003974,0.010568&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=38.750181,-90.104054&panoid=XzzneR-i1QK0CLZXshAXhA&cbp=12,37.33,,0,5)
Last but not least, don't forget about this
I-255 north at IL 162 (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Granite+City,+IL&aq=2&sll=37.447117,-88.885569&sspn=0.00204,0.005284&gl=us&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Granite+City,+Madison,+Illinois&ll=38.727388,-90.035802&spn=0.004009,0.010568&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=38.727502,-90.035877&panoid=rLQIxM_3D7xxKp0OzQhbJg&cbp=12,317.31,,0,5)
Quote from: BigMatt on February 18, 2011, 07:07:08 PM
So arguing about the biggest rivalry in the AFC has nothing to do with control destinations..
BigMatt
Indeed. I am going to end the discussion by unilaterally declaring the biggest rivalry in the AFC to be between the Florida Marlins and Jeff Gordon, and any disagreement with this will be punishable by death..
The 101/199 partial interchange has as 101 north's control city "Oregon Coast".
Rick
I could write a book on this subject, but I'll try to keep it brief here. In the New York City metro area, New York State DOT for many years used common sense destinations like the names of bridges and tunnels, which are numerous around NY City and regions like Eastern L.I. and South Shore, mentioned in an above post. Those were logical and intuitive. For better or worse (I say worse) NYSDOT in recent years has gone on a strict control cities kick which they call "sign requirements programs". Apparently they decided it was more important to strictly comply with the Federal MUTCD, which requires city names.
So now, if you're looking for I-95 South/George Washington Bridge/New Jersey, the sign may say I-95 South/Newark or Trenton. Technically correct, but not very logical in some cases, depending which direction you're coming from. And I think most drivers knew to look for the George Washington Bridge.
And I agree with those who say the control city name should not be used if you're already in that city. In Los Angeles, at the interchange of "the 405 and "the 101" it used to say "Los Angeles" even though you're well inside the city, where "Downtown L A" would have made more sense.
When the BGS's show destinations that are technically correct but not logical and intuitive, I say we are strangling ourselves in rules, instead of using common sense. And this defeats the purpose of guide signs.
You might need to step back and consider the viewpoint of someone not familiar with NYC. If I was from, say, Atlanta and headed home from a vacation in, say, Maine, I doubt "George Washington Bridge" would be a very useful control point. You're more likely to find "I-95 south" or the next major city after New York helpful. If you're from out of town, you won't be familiar with which bridges go where. "New Jersey" is marginally more useful but a state is a pretty big place. A road with a control city of "New Jersey" could just as easily be bound for Trenton as it is for Atlantic City.
Think about it in terms of an unfamiliar city–if you, a Long Islander, were headed east through the I-35/I-40 split in OKC, would "Wichita" and "Ft Smith" be more helpful, or "Remington Park" and "Tinker AFB"? The latter might be more helpful for locals but probably not for the folks from out of town–who are the most likely to need the signs!
One should also bear in mind that nobody's destination is the George Washington Bridge. It may be a handy waypoint in navigating but it is not a plausible final destination, which control cities are intended to be.
Quote from: SignBridge on February 28, 2011, 10:17:40 PM
And I agree with those who say the control city name should not be used if you're already in that city. In Los Angeles, at the interchange of "the 405 and "the 101" it used to say "Los Angeles" even though you're well inside the city, where "Downtown L A" would have made more sense.
Still does, as a matter of fact! I'm not sure "Downtown LA" is used very much as a control city, even when individual districts elsewhere (Echo Park, Hollywood) ARE.
Quote from: Scott5114Think about it in terms of an unfamiliar city–if you, a Long Islander, were headed east through the I-35/I-40 split in OKC, would "Wichita" and "Ft Smith" be more helpful, or "Remington Park" and "Tinker AFB"? The latter might be more helpful for locals but probably not for the folks from out of town–who are the most likely to need the signs!
It actually depends: are the out-of-towners thru thraffic, OR are they trying to navigate within the city itself?
I think that most signs should use two control cities whenever possible (not always possible, mind you), one for the long-distance control, and one for the nearest local control. CalTrans is pretty good about this, especially in rural areas (i.e. San Luis Obispo/San Francisco on US 101 northbound near Pismo Beach), though there are many examples (often in downtowns) where they go much more local than one would expect.
There are no long-distance control cities in SF, with I-80 being Bay Bridge/Oakland and US 101 being either Civic Center/Golden Gate Bridge or San Jose, no mention of Sacramento, Los Angeles, or Eureka.
In downtown Los Angeles, the only long-distance control city in use is Sacramento for I-5 (replacing the old US 99-era Bakersfield that was in use until the 1980s), with 101 being signed north for Hollywood/Ventura (no mention of San Francisco), 5 south being given the Santa Ana control city (not San Diego) and 10 being signed either for Santa Monica or San Bernardino (not Phoenix).
There is at least one case here where the bridge absolutely would be a legitimate destination control city, and that is the Golden Gate Bridge on 101 in SF.
Sacramento's control cities on the other hand tend to be much more like what you describe, Scott, with no local controls except for "Roseville" off of Route 160 north (old US 40/99E). I-80 and Business 80/US 50 west are both signed for San Francisco, I-80 and Business 80 east for Reno, US 50 east for South Lake Tahoe (with some signage for Placerville), I-5 north almost entirely signed for Redding, I-5 south for Los Angeles, and Route 99 south for Fresno (formerly Los Angeles prior to I-5 being built). Woodland does get mentioned a little bit on 5 north.
In that situation, I think that a few more local secondary controls would be very helpful (Elk Grove for 99 south, Stockton for 5 south, Roseville for 80 and Business 80 east, maybe Davis for 80 west).
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 01, 2011, 11:26:45 AM
You might need to step back and consider the viewpoint of someone not familiar with NYC. If I was from, say, Atlanta and headed home from a vacation in, say, Maine, I doubt "George Washington Bridge" would be a very useful control point. You're more likely to find "I-95 south" or the next major city after New York helpful. If you're from out of town, you won't be familiar with which bridges go where. "New Jersey" is marginally more useful but a state is a pretty big place. A road with a control city of "New Jersey" could just as easily be bound for Trenton as it is for Atlantic City.
Think about it in terms of an unfamiliar city–if you, a Long Islander, were headed east through the I-35/I-40 split in OKC, would "Wichita" and "Ft Smith" be more helpful, or "Remington Park" and "Tinker AFB"? The latter might be more helpful for locals but probably not for the folks from out of town–who are the most likely to need the signs!
One should also bear in mind that nobody's destination is the George Washington Bridge. It may be a handy waypoint in navigating but it is not a plausible final destination, which control cities are intended to be.
The flip side of the "a state is a pretty big place" argument is that "New Jersey" may be more meaningful to people not from a narrow slice of the east coast than "Trenton" is. Since, if you're in upper Manhattan or the Bronx, the George Washington Bridge is a reasonable route to get to
any point in New Jersey, why not just say "New Jersey" rather than single out a medium-sized (90,000 or so) city 60-odd miles away? Going the other direction, they changed "New England" to "New Haven" and "Upstate NY" to "Albany." I don't see that either of those is an improvement. I used to like the "New England" signs; evocative of seafood and history and childhood vacations....
But as I've said many times, American "control city" practices are wildly inconsistent. (I'm not clear what "control city" even means.) They drive Europeans - who are used to being able to follow, say, "Lyon" from 400 miles away and care less about route numbers - nuts; it's the main complaint you see on European forums about American signage. Which is their problem to some extent, but they've got a point; would it kill New Jersey to recognize that I-80 goes to places more significant than the Delaware Water Gap, or would it kill Pennsylvania to recognize Philadelphia in Pittsburgh and vice versa?
Well.................lots of good opinions on this issue. Scott, you actually make a valid point about the NYC area signs. And the engineers who wrote the Federal MUTCD agree with you. The national policy stated in the Manual is that Freeway signs should be oriented for drivers not familiar with the area, which is what NYSDOT seems to be doing nowadays.
But I still take the one exception in areas like Philadelphia, or NYC where there are easily a dozen bridges and tunnels that many drivers look for by name. Maybe where sign space permits, both the control city and the bridge/tunnel could be shown.
Michael, how about "Albany - Tappan Zee Br." for the Thruway out of NYC? (chuckle!) I actually agree with their having replaced "New England" as a destination. It was too general, as it applies to the whole Northeast area from NYC. But it might be reasonable to show "Connecticut" instead of New Haven..........
BTW, since you brought up European practice, have you seen the signs on the northbound NJ Turnpike approaching the big toll barrier at the Exit
16/18 split? "George Wash. Bridge" is shown on the top line, with the route shields for 46-80-95 on the bottom line like on the German Autobahn. A rare exception to standard American practice. You can see it on Google Earth, by the big Secaucus Rail Station.
Quote from: SignBridge on March 01, 2011, 08:59:55 PM
Well.................lots of good opinions on this issue. Scott, you actually make a valid point about the NYC area signs. And the engineers who wrote the Federal MUTCD agree with you. The national policy stated in the Manual is that Freeway signs should be oriented for drivers not familiar with the area, which is what NYSDOT seems to be doing nowadays.
But I still take the one exception in areas like Philadelphia, or NYC where there are easily a dozen bridges and tunnels that many drivers look for by name. Maybe where sign space permits, both the control city and the bridge/tunnel could be shown.
Michael, how about "Albany - Tappan Zee Br." for the Thruway out of NYC? (chuckle!) I actually agree with their having replaced "New England" as a destination. It was too general, as it applies to the whole Northeast area from NYC. But it might be reasonable to show "Connecticut" instead of New Haven..........
BTW, since you brought up European practice, have you seen the signs on the northbound NJ Turnpike approaching the big toll barrier at the Exit
16/18 split? "George Wash. Bridge" is shown on the top line, with the route shields for 46-80-95 on the bottom line like on the German Autobahn. A rare exception to standard American practice. You can see it on Google Earth, by the big Secaucus Rail Station.
Re "New England," the same thing I said about "New Jersey" applies: whether you're going to Greenwich, northern Maine, or some place in between, it's all the same direction when you're on the Alexander Hamilton Bridge.
Although now that I think of it, if I were heading for Vermont or the Berkshires, I probably would take 87....) But if we have to use cities, how about Boston and Philadelphia rather than New Haven and Trenton (neither of which I'd describe as "major").
Another instance where naming the bridge is much more useful than a destination would be the Whitestone and Throgs Neck - if you're in the Bronx and you're heading for any point from eastern Queens east, the two are interchangeable and which one you take is going to be a function of what traffic reports are saying at the moment. So I don't see how you sign 295 and 678 informatively except by naming the bridges (and the route numbers themselves of course).
Quote from: Kacie Jane on February 18, 2011, 06:42:26 PM
So Steelers-Browns is definitely the oldest rivalry in the AFC, since they've been butting heads since the '40s. The old AFL teams didn't start until the '60s.
×
Coelacanth: Typically purple text means that a moderator has spoken, and discussion should end. ;-)
Reviving the topic with another example, "Naval Base" is the control city on I-64 West then I-564 West in Norfolk, Va., in addition to being the control point for I-564's split from I-64. Plus I've also seen signs listing the Downtown and Midtown Tunnels (or just Tunnel, or even Tunnel to Norfolk/Portsmouth) as control points.
Quote from: SignBridge on February 28, 2011, 10:17:40 PM
So now, if you're looking for I-95 South/George Washington Bridge/New Jersey, the sign may say I-95 South/Newark or Trenton. Technically correct, but not very logical in some cases, depending which direction you're coming from. And I think most drivers knew to look for the George Washington Bridge.
(Bolding added by me...)
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 01, 2011, 11:26:45 AM
You might need to step back and consider the viewpoint of someone not familiar with NYC. If I was from, say, Atlanta and headed home from a vacation in, say, Maine, I doubt "George Washington Bridge" would be a very useful control point. You're more likely to find "I-95 south" or the next major city after New York helpful. If you're from out of town, you won't be familiar with which bridges go where. "New Jersey" is marginally more useful but a state is a pretty big place. A road with a control city of "New Jersey" could just as easily be bound for Trenton as it is for Atlantic City.
Two points... First, I don't think it's "technically correct" to sign I-95 south as bound for Trenton, given the gap. IMHO, if we're looking for specifically a New Jersey control city, there's Newark of course, but that may be too close to NYC, but New Brunswick works and is IMHO more significant than Trenton.
Also, while it's true that a state is "a pretty big place", I think the geography of the area makes it such that it works fine as a control city. That is, no matter where in (or beyond) New Jersey you're going, if you're in the Bronx, I-95 is the way to go. Whether you're going to Trenton or Atlantic City, you're going to end up on the Turnpike at least as far as Exit 11, and as I mentioned above the Turnpike isn't really bound for either.
In California
I-8 westbound in San Diego "Beaches"
I-405 Southbound In some spots "LAX Airport"
I know near the end of I-55 in Chicago, Lake Shore Drive is used as the control city.
In Detroit, MI: I-96 is "Bridge to Canada" once you're too far east for "Detroit" to work, the same "control city" appears on I-96 interchange signs on I-94 and I-75. and in the suburb of Taylor, on U.S. 24 (Telegraph Road) at Ecorse Road NB, it's "THRU TRAFFIC".
More California:
CA-217: Airport/UCSB
US-101 north out of downtown L.A.: Hollywood (although as signs are being replaced they're now using Ventura)
CA-241: South County (as in Orange)
Somewhere upthread someone mentioned California rarely uses "Downtown" even when they're already within said city, CA-163 in San Diego being an exception. I-280 does use "Downtown San Jose" between I-880 and US-101, and I believe CA-87 does as well. That's the only other one I can think of.
Quote from: DTComposer on March 06, 2011, 01:11:28 AM
Somewhere upthread someone mentioned California rarely uses "Downtown" even when they're already within said city, CA-163 in San Diego being an exception. I-280 does use "Downtown San Jose" between I-880 and US-101, and I believe CA-87 does as well. That's the only other one I can think of.
One other exception that stands out to me is I-280 in SF, signed for downtown from US 101 north.
An awkward example though of the traditional practice is on US 50 east in West Sacramento (in another county, and on the other side of the Sacramento River) - the exit for (former) Route 275 east is "Downtown Sacramento", while US 50/Business 80 east is signed for "Sacramento/South Lake Tahoe."
Southbound Interstate 25 approaching Colorado Springs has several distance signs listing the distance to specific exits in the Springs. There's a few northbound near Denver too.
Also, on the north end there's a "North Entrance-U.S. Air Force Academy" control.
The sign on I-87 NB says "New England" for I-84 EB.
Mackinac Bridge is used on US 127 as well as I-75, despite US 127 ending south of Grayling, nearly 90 miles south of the bridge.
Downtown Orlando on I-4 in Florida uses the name "Bob Carr" for the exit to US 17 & 92, and FL 50. Bob Carr is actually the performing arts center in Orlando once part of Centoplex that was the previous control city until the new Amway Center opened last Fall. There were originally three venues in Centroplex, then two when the Orlando Expo Center closed, and now one with the old Amway Arena sitting idle.
How about Bear Mountain for the Palisades Interstate Parkway in New York and US 6 from NY 17 in Harriman!
NYC uses waterway crossings on its highways.
Shore Points in New Jersey for US 9 in many places as well as the Southbound Exit on I-95 to the Garden State Parkway in Woodbridge, NJ.
Interesting that you mentioned "Shore Points" re: the G.S. Parkway exit on the N.J. Turnpike. I've always wondered what city they could use to be technically correct. Maybe "Atlantic City", a popular destination. Or "Cape May", the southern terminus of the Parkway.
Shore points is only used here! The Garden State Parkway does not like to use control cities at all for their signs! Even mileage signs for cities and even the Gas Food Lodging signs. Try finding a motel along the 173 plus miles when you arrive in South Jersey off the last ferry from Lewes Delaware at night!
That's true. Most entrances to the G.S. Parkway are just signed North or South with no destination. Not MUTCD compliant.
Wow, I did not know that! I figured something was odd with the NJ Highway Authority and the way they sign the road. I though it was me!
Here's one I don't think has been mentioned: On I-15 in Las Vegas, approaching the Las Vegas Beltway, I-215 east is signed appropriately for Henderson, but Clark Co. 215 west is signed "215 West".
NDOT and CCPW could not find any suitable control city to use in this direction. "Las Vegas" seemed redundant at that point, "North Las Vegas, Reno or Salt Lake City would be inappropriate due to other routes being more direct. The area can be most identified with "Summerlin", but NDOT wouldn't use it since it's a corporate name (master planned community) and not an actual place name. However, "Spring Valley", the unincorporated township that encompasses much of this area, is not very well known to most people to be useful for navigation.
There really was nothing else that could be put there that would make sense. Interesting to note that no other signs for I-215 or CC 215 in the Vegas area have control cities on them.
Quote from: roadfro on March 22, 2011, 10:37:14 PM
Here's one I don't think has been mentioned: On I-15 in Las Vegas, approaching the Las Vegas Beltway, I-215 east is signed appropriately for Henderson, but Clark Co. 215 west is signed "215 West".
NDOT and CCPW could not find any suitable control city to use in this direction. "Las Vegas" seemed redundant at that point, "North Las Vegas, Reno or Salt Lake City would be inappropriate due to other routes being more direct. The area can be most identified with "Summerlin", but NDOT wouldn't use it since it's a corporate name (master planned community) and not an actual place name. However, "Spring Valley", the unincorporated township that encompasses much of this area, is not very well known to most people to be useful for navigation.
There really was nothing else that could be put there that would make sense. Interesting to note that no other signs for I-215 or CC 215 in the Vegas area have control cities on them.
They could take a hint from IDOT and ISTHA and use "West Suburbs". X-(
What about "West Las Vegas" or "West Las Vegas Valley"
Quote from: nyratk1 on February 16, 2011, 03:26:58 PM
There's Eastern LI for various exits onto I-495 (particularly in Nassau and NYC) and I believe there's a control area of "South Shore" for the exit off of I-495 for the southbound Sagtikos Pkwy.
Those date back to when NYSDOT was still hoping to bring the Long Island Expressway past Riverhead.
Quote from: Brandon on March 23, 2011, 01:25:52 PM
Quote from: roadfro on March 22, 2011, 10:37:14 PM
Here's one I don't think has been mentioned: On I-15 in Las Vegas, approaching the Las Vegas Beltway, I-215 east is signed appropriately for Henderson, but Clark Co. 215 west is signed "215 West".
NDOT and CCPW could not find any suitable control city to use in this direction. "Las Vegas" seemed redundant at that point, "North Las Vegas, Reno or Salt Lake City would be inappropriate due to other routes being more direct. The area can be most identified with "Summerlin", but NDOT wouldn't use it since it's a corporate name (master planned community) and not an actual place name. However, "Spring Valley", the unincorporated township that encompasses much of this area, is not very well known to most people to be useful for navigation.
There really was nothing else that could be put there that would make sense. Interesting to note that no other signs for I-215 or CC 215 in the Vegas area have control cities on them.
They could take a hint from IDOT and ISTHA and use "West Suburbs". X-(
Quote from: Interstate Trav on March 23, 2011, 01:42:44 PM
What about "West Las Vegas" or "West Las Vegas Valley"
Most people don't consider any part of Vegas as "suburbs", no matter how far out from the downtown core you are. The three cities and the unincorporated townships flow so seamlessly together nowadays...the only real suburb is Boulder City.
"West Las Vegas" is a term associated with a historically African American neighborhood just northwest of downtown (which, when first established, was on the more western outskirts)
I can't believe I forgot this one: on I-20 here in Louisiana, the control point for exit 78 is "Industry". There is a glass plant, machine shop, particle board plant, and 2 closed down Weyerhaeuser plants (LVL/I-joist mill and a lam-beam plant).
Nov. 30, 1996, a tornado hit us here in Simsboro. It went over the school, ripped the bricks off of the glass plant (not breaking a single mason jar :wow:) and went over I-20, turning over an 18-wheeler and an RV, and destroying the BGS at the exit ramp. The local fish wrap (The Ruston Daily Disappointment :sombrero: ) refered to this area as the "community of Industry". I don't know why, but it was fingernails on a chalkboard to me. I wanted to find the writer of the story and just :pan: :pan: :pan:
Here is one place that is definetely not one, as I brought it up months ago, but now have the picture.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/54480415@N08/5975568620/in/photostream
A former mayor of Orlando is Bob Carr now with a Performing Arts Center in his memory that is pending upgrading to a new facility.
I-395 in DC has some pull-through signs that list Capitol Hill, Verizon Center, and Nationals Park as control cities. One of them right as you come off the 14th Street Bridge has Capitol Hill on the upper line and then "Nationals Park-Verizon Center" on the bottom line in very ugly thin type that was pretty clearly squeezed in as best they could; the next sign omits Verizon Center because an adjacent exit sign uses it as the control destination. The logic behind putting Nationals Park and Verizon Center on a BGS is obvious, especially since signing DC as the control city makes no sense when you're already there and when I-395 doesn't directly connect to any road that takes you directly to anywhere more prominent, but the sign assembly that puts both sports venues on the same line is really hideous.
Here's the first one; I think this whole assembly is ugly in just about every way.
http://maps.google.com/?ll=38.878038,-77.037495&spn=0.006373,0.016512&z=17&layer=c&cbll=38.87816,-77.037383&panoid=KUCPri4WRtg_WCTMtNJc7A&cbp=12,43.36,,0,-0.7
There is a sign on I-295 in DC that lists destinations of "Washington Navy-Yard" and "Downtown"; yes, for some reason there is an erroneous hyphen in "Navy Yard" on the sign. See below; the shield is particularly ugly in terms of how it was installed.
http://maps.google.com/?ll=38.866127,-76.99149&spn=0.006416,0.016512&z=17&layer=c&cbll=38.866292,-76.99134&panoid=ekyRsVAQbhTmpYBJXv51ig&cbp=12,9.48,,0,9.12
I have to give DC some credit, though, because they've made a real effort to improve their signs in the past several years. They haven't always succeeded in posting good signs, but at least the new signs they've posted do reflect some level of thought.
A previous poster pointed out that it doesn't make sense to show the destination as the city you're already in. Well..............that doesn't stop Caltrans from listing Los Angeles as the destination when you're already in that city. Check out the interchange of the 405 and the 101 freeways. If they would change it to "Downtown L.A." it would make sense.............
Has anyone pointed out that the term "control city" is a roadgeek invention? The MUTCD refers to such a sign legend as a "destination". Destinations can certainly be points that aren't cities, or arguably entire states. Only when we use the term "control city" do non-city destinations seem anomalous.
Quote from: Kacie Jane on February 18, 2011, 06:42:26 PMSo Steelers-Browns is definitely the oldest rivalry in the AFC, since they've been butting heads since the '40s. The old AFL teams didn't start until the '60s.
Yes, but they were moved to the AFC when the AFL merged into the NFL.
But getting back on the subject, aren't there some non-cities used as control cities out on the Space Coast?
The term control city originated in earlier editions of the MUTCD at least as far back as the 1970's. And is still used in some sections of the Manual. Section 2E.13-Paragraph 1 refers to major destinations and control cities. Though the term destination is more commonly used in subsequent pages.
Quote from: SignBridge on July 31, 2011, 05:15:43 PM
The term control city originated in earlier editions of the MUTCD at least as far back as the 1970's. And is still used in some sections of the Manual. Section 2E.13-Paragraph 1 refers to major destinations and control cities. Though the term destination is more commonly used in subsequent pages.
I stand corrected. But clearly, "destination" is a better term, describing the exact purpose of the sign legend without imposing the arbitrary requirement that it name a city.
That's ironic 'cause over the last 10 years NYS DOT went on a campaign of replacing many more sensible destinations with city names, that are [in my opinion] less helpful in some cases. They called it a sign requirements program.
Not sure why nobody mentioned Cape Cod on MA 3, I-93, I-495, MA 25, and I-195.
A few more California ones:
Mtn Resorts
Valley Blvd
Terminal Isl
Vincent Thomas Br
Marina del Rey
Monterey Peninsula
North Carolina has a few around the state. Near me, I-40 has "RDU Airport" posted pretty frequently around the triangle. I believe there is one for CLT Airport somewhere around charlotte. I have seen a couple on I-95 for Fort Bragg and Pope AFB. US 301 has a few exits on 95 with just "Local Traffic" as control city. I also vaguely recall a sign on US 70 with "Crystal Coast" as control city, but I have not been able to find it in recent times.
iPad
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on November 28, 2020, 04:30:08 AM
A few more California ones:
Mtn Resorts
Valley Blvd
Terminal Isl
Vincent Thomas Br
Marina del Rey
Monterey Peninsula
I remember seeing a story once out of CA where "Beach Cities" was being used but didn't really lead to beach cities.
Illinois went to directional suburbs because every suburb that brushed the roads wanted to be on the signs..so it's all just street names . I don't know if they thought Iowa and Ohio were a similarly offended so the dropped Des Moines and Toledo on 80.
Quote from: national highway 1 on February 13, 2011, 11:43:05 PM
I-10 Eb east of San Bernardino 'Other Desert Cities'
CA 91 Wb 'Beach Cities'
I-605 Thru Traffic
CA-110 Downtown
CA-110 Hollywood
I-110 San Pedro
I remember San Francisco used to have a control city called Civic Center but that was when the Central Freeway was there as a possible extension for I-80 and US-101 to touch CA-1 aka 19th ave in the city.
Quote from: TheStranger on March 01, 2011, 12:08:24 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on February 28, 2011, 10:17:40 PM
And I agree with those who say the control city name should not be used if you're already in that city. In Los Angeles, at the interchange of "the 405 and "the 101" it used to say "Los Angeles" even though you're well inside the city, where "Downtown L A" would have made more sense.
Still does, as a matter of fact! I'm not sure "Downtown LA" is used very much as a control city, even when individual districts elsewhere (Echo Park, Hollywood) ARE.
Quote from: Scott5114Think about it in terms of an unfamiliar city–if you, a Long Islander, were headed east through the I-35/I-40 split in OKC, would "Wichita" and "Ft Smith" be more helpful, or "Remington Park" and "Tinker AFB"? The latter might be more helpful for locals but probably not for the folks from out of town–who are the most likely to need the signs!
It actually depends: are the out-of-towners thru thraffic, OR are they trying to navigate within the city itself?
I think that most signs should use two control cities whenever possible (not always possible, mind you), one for the long-distance control, and one for the nearest local control. CalTrans is pretty good about this, especially in rural areas (i.e. San Luis Obispo/San Francisco on US 101 northbound near Pismo Beach), though there are many examples (often in downtowns) where they go much more local than one would expect.
There are no long-distance control cities in SF, with I-80 being Bay Bridge/Oakland and US 101 being either Civic Center/Golden Gate Bridge or San Jose, no mention of Sacramento, Los Angeles, or Eureka.
In downtown Los Angeles, the only long-distance control city in use is Sacramento for I-5 (replacing the old US 99-era Bakersfield that was in use until the 1980s), with 101 being signed north for Hollywood/Ventura (no mention of San Francisco), 5 south being given the Santa Ana control city (not San Diego) and 10 being signed either for Santa Monica or San Bernardino (not Phoenix).
There is at least one case here where the bridge absolutely would be a legitimate destination control city, and that is the Golden Gate Bridge on 101 in SF.
Sacramento's control cities on the other hand tend to be much more like what you describe, Scott, with no local controls except for "Roseville" off of Route 160 north (old US 40/99E). I-80 and Business 80/US 50 west are both signed for San Francisco, I-80 and Business 80 east for Reno, US 50 east for South Lake Tahoe (with some signage for Placerville), I-5 north almost entirely signed for Redding, I-5 south for Los Angeles, and Route 99 south for Fresno (formerly Los Angeles prior to I-5 being built). Woodland does get mentioned a little bit on 5 north.
In that situation, I think that a few more local secondary controls would be very helpful (Elk Grove for 99 south, Stockton for 5 south, Roseville for 80 and Business 80 east, maybe Davis for 80 west).
San Jose gets some Long distance cities such as Los Angeles for US-101 South and I-280 South end and I-680 North as Sacramento but the rest of the freeways tend to have control cities within the Bay Area.
Quote from: bing101 on November 28, 2020, 12:54:02 PM
Quote from: national highway 1 on February 13, 2011, 11:43:05 PM
I-10 Eb east of San Bernardino 'Other Desert Cities'
CA 91 Wb 'Beach Cities'
I-605 Thru Traffic
CA-110 Downtown
CA-110 Hollywood
I-110 San Pedro
I remember San Francisco used to have a control city called Civic Center but that was when the Central Freeway was there as a possible extension for I-80 and US-101 to touch CA-1 aka 19th ave in the city.
Civic Center is still the control for 101 north at the Alemany Maze interchange with 280.
SAMSUNG-SM-G930A
Quote from: TheStranger on March 07, 2011, 01:23:46 PM
Quote from: DTComposer on March 06, 2011, 01:11:28 AM
Somewhere upthread someone mentioned California rarely uses "Downtown" even when they're already within said city, CA-163 in San Diego being an exception. I-280 does use "Downtown San Jose" between I-880 and US-101, and I believe CA-87 does as well. That's the only other one I can think of.
One other exception that stands out to me is I-280 in SF, signed for downtown from US 101 north.
An awkward example though of the traditional practice is on US 50 east in West Sacramento (in another county, and on the other side of the Sacramento River) - the exit for (former) Route 275 east is "Downtown Sacramento", while US 50/Business 80 east is signed for "Sacramento/South Lake Tahoe."
CA-160 in Sacramento has the control city of Downtown Sacramento too.
Minnesota:
"Wisconsin" (various)
"Iron Range" (I-35/MN 33)
"North Shore" (I-35/MN 61)
"Canadian Border" (used on some three-place signs)
"MN 61" on MN 1 East south of Ely (similar to "I-15" used on I-70 in Utah because there's nothing of note to use as an alternative)
Appears to no longer be in use, but "Mendota Bridge" was used on MN 55 near the airport until a few years ago.
Before I-64 was extended to Wentzville and the interchange there rebuilt, the control cities IIRC were:
US 40 East/US 61 South
-Forest Park
I-70 East
-Lambert Airport
40/61 West/North
-Kansas City
-Hannibal
I-70 West
-Kansas City
Although the practice seems to have declined a bit with sign replacements in recent years, I-215 in Utah is often signed with the destination of simply "Belt Route" at interchanges with other freeways.
Quote from: tylert120 on November 28, 2020, 08:26:57 AM
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on November 28, 2020, 04:30:08 AM
A few more California ones:
Mtn Resorts
Valley Blvd
Terminal Isl
Vincent Thomas Br
Marina del Rey
Monterey Peninsula
I remember seeing a story once out of CA where "Beach Cities" was being used but didn't really lead to beach cities.
Beach Cities is used on CA-91 westbound in Riverside County. CA-91 did lead to some of the "beach cities" of L.A. County (Hermosa Beach, Redondo Beach, Manhattan Beach) before it was truncated back to I-110, and you would still used the decommissioned route (via Artesia Boulevard) to get there.
CA-91 would also get you to the other beach cities in L.A. County (Santa Monica, Long Beach, etc.) by connecting to other routes, and to beach cities in Orange County (Huntington Beach, Newport Beach, etc.) by connecting to CA-55; but it is Hermosa/Manhattan/Redondo that the signage is specifically referring to (as evidenced by a mileage sign that lists 43 miles to "Beach Cities" which I'm pretty sure got you to Artesia Blvd. and Pacific Coast Highway).
The "The's" in New Jersey. The Oranges, The Caldwells...
Quote from: hbelkins on December 03, 2020, 03:13:54 PM
The "The's" in New Jersey. The Oranges, The Caldwells...
Technically citieS.
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.8413385,-78.8860227,3a,37.8y,233.28h,93.51t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1su3I_GZIWzrUlnT1EmTLlhA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Where does 55 east take you? It takes you to Apex, not Cary.
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 18, 2021, 04:09:44 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.8413385,-78.8860227,3a,37.8y,233.28h,93.51t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1su3I_GZIWzrUlnT1EmTLlhA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Where does 55 east take you? It takes you to Apex, not Cary.
Are you trying to say Cary isn't a city?
Quote from: kphoger on July 20, 2021, 01:18:54 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 18, 2021, 04:09:44 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.8413385,-78.8860227,3a,37.8y,233.28h,93.51t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1su3I_GZIWzrUlnT1EmTLlhA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Where does 55 east take you? It takes you to Apex, not Cary.
Are you trying to say Cary isn't a city?
I think that he should have posted that in the control cities not on the route thread.
I'm pretty sure NC-55 goes through Cary's city limits...
Quote from: kphoger on July 20, 2021, 03:27:24 PM
I'm pretty sure NC-55 goes through Cary's city limits...
It does, multiple times, and if you're going in the direction tolbs17 cited, you pass through Cary city limits before reaching Apex.
Apex was considered out in the sticks when I lived in Durham (before tolbs17 was born, according to his profile).
Quote from: kphoger on July 20, 2021, 03:27:24 PM
I'm pretty sure NC-55 goes through Cary's city limits...
Kind of like the Kickapoo Turnpike goes through Oklahoma City.
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 20, 2021, 03:36:09 PM
It does, multiple times, and if you're going in the direction tolbs17 cited, you pass through Cary city limits before reaching Apex.
Apex was considered out in the sticks when I lived in Durham (before tolbs17 was born, according to his profile).
But locals here still don't think of Cary being anywhere near NC-55. Ten years ago, there were only a few fingers of Cary reaching out that far. But nowadays, the stretch of NC-55 between the Triangle Expressway (Toll NC-540) and US-64 is mostly in Cary, even though the center of Morrisville is closer. In fact, most of this area was originally in the Morrisville zip code (27560) but has now been moved into the western Cary zip code (27519). Much of this area was in the unincorporated town of Carpenter before Morrisville and Cary got into the vicious war over annexation.
Other Desert Cities on I-10 east in California
The Grand Canyon is used on AZ-64 northbound. As is a few mileage signs on I-40 despite not going there.
Looks like the other thread got deleted instead of merged...
" AIRPORT"
Quote from: Dirt Roads on July 20, 2021, 06:28:26 PM
Quote from: kphoger on July 20, 2021, 03:27:24 PM
I'm pretty sure NC-55 goes through Cary's city limits...
Kind of like the Kickapoo Turnpike goes through Oklahoma City.
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 20, 2021, 03:36:09 PM
It does, multiple times, and if you're going in the direction tolbs17 cited, you pass through Cary city limits before reaching Apex.
Apex was considered out in the sticks when I lived in Durham (before tolbs17 was born, according to his profile).
But locals here still don't think of Cary being anywhere near NC-55. Ten years ago, there were only a few fingers of Cary reaching out that far. But nowadays, the stretch of NC-55 between the Triangle Expressway (Toll NC-540) and US-64 is mostly in Cary, even though the center of Morrisville is closer. In fact, most of this area was originally in the Morrisville zip code (27560) but has now been moved into the western Cary zip code (27519). Much of this area was in the unincorporated town of Carpenter before Morrisville and Cary got into the vicious war over annexation.
It used to say Apex if you go back on the timeline.
Compare this (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.8642477,-78.8387626,3a,75y,225.61h,100.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skb8MyJ6Va9QYunsLL4RMqA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) sign and see the huge difference.
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 20, 2021, 09:40:36 PM
Looks like the other thread got deleted instead of merged...
No its still here: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=29765.0
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=29765.0
So will this thread get merged?
Does anyone know of a circumstance where an entire county was used in place of a control city?
Reading another thread on control cities where the topic of using states in the Chicago area naturally came up. Indiana is of course the control for eastbound 80, 90, and 94 through most of the Chicago area. Of course, it is somewhat unsatisfying to list a whole state as a control, while it is difficult to list cities since there is no big enough city at the point where all the routes converge and then diverge. After the divergence, 94 east to Detroit, 65 south to Indianapolis, and 80/90 to (Toledo) Ohio*. But what would be good to use while still west of that point on either 90 or 80/94.
Perhaps signing for Lake County IN, while still within IL would make sense. I wonder if there is any precedent for signing a county as a control on freeway signage. Has anyone seen a county being signed as a control city?
My own prefernce would probably still be to list both Detroit and Toledo* as controls on EB 80/94 and 90
* My personal preference would be to replace Toledo with South Bend for the entire area.
Quote from: mrsman on October 21, 2021, 03:44:43 PM
Does anyone know of a circumstance where an entire county was used in place of a control city?
"St Charles County" on MO 370 WB (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7733155,-90.3997879,3a,41.3y,238.72h,95.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNEvLj7kqVgsyGJiH7ErDrA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
Quote from: mrsman on October 21, 2021, 03:44:43 PM
Does anyone know of a circumstance where an entire county was used in place of a control city?
Reading another thread on control cities where the topic of using states in the Chicago area naturally came up. Indiana is of course the control for eastbound 80, 90, and 94 through most of the Chicago area. Of course, it is somewhat unsatisfying to list a whole state as a control, while it is difficult to list cities since there is no big enough city at the point where all the routes converge and then diverge. After the divergence, 94 east to Detroit, 65 south to Indianapolis, and 80/90 to (Toledo) Ohio*. But what would be good to use while still west of that point on either 90 or 80/94.
Perhaps signing for Lake County IN, while still within IL would make sense. I wonder if there is any precedent for signing a county as a control on freeway signage. Has anyone seen a county being signed as a control city?
My own prefernce would probably still be to list both Detroit and Toledo* as controls on EB 80/94 and 90
* My personal preference would be to replace Toledo with South Bend for the entire area.
Indiana works for me on the control signs for heading eastbound. Around the Chicago area "Indiana" in conversations usually refers to NW IN. Like New Jersey or Connecticut in NYC region. Most drivers head to the Dunes, or other towns/sites there.
And, other NW IN counties may object to using Lake. Gary used to appear back when it was more populous. South Bend may be OK, but IN is fine.
Quote from: US20IL64 on October 21, 2021, 04:08:26 PM
Quote from: mrsman on October 21, 2021, 03:44:43 PM
Does anyone know of a circumstance where an entire county was used in place of a control city?
Reading another thread on control cities where the topic of using states in the Chicago area naturally came up. Indiana is of course the control for eastbound 80, 90, and 94 through most of the Chicago area. Of course, it is somewhat unsatisfying to list a whole state as a control, while it is difficult to list cities since there is no big enough city at the point where all the routes converge and then diverge. After the divergence, 94 east to Detroit, 65 south to Indianapolis, and 80/90 to (Toledo) Ohio*. But what would be good to use while still west of that point on either 90 or 80/94.
Perhaps signing for Lake County IN, while still within IL would make sense. I wonder if there is any precedent for signing a county as a control on freeway signage. Has anyone seen a county being signed as a control city?
My own prefernce would probably still be to list both Detroit and Toledo* as controls on EB 80/94 and 90
* My personal preference would be to replace Toledo with South Bend for the entire area.
Indiana works for me on the control signs for heading eastbound. Around the Chicago area "Indiana" in conversations usually refers to NW IN. Like New Jersey or Connecticut in NYC region. Most drivers head to the Dunes, or other towns/sites there.
And, other NW IN counties may object to using Lake. Gary used to appear back when it was more populous. South Bend may be OK, but IN is fine.
Not to mention, I-65 breaks off towards Indy in Lake County, and I always felt like signing "Indiana" was at least a partial nod to Indianapolis from Chicago via 80, 90, 94, and 294, in addition to the more northerly destinations along 80/90 and 94
Quote from: ilpt4u on October 21, 2021, 09:06:11 PM
Not to mention, I-65 breaks off towards Indy in Lake County, and I always felt like signing "Indiana" was at least a partial nod to Indianapolis from Chicago via 80, 90, 94, and 294, in addition to the more northerly destinations along 80/90 and 94
I used to be against "Indiana" as the EB control city in Chicago, until I realized that it signifies the connection to I-65 and Indianapolis by signing the whole state. Imo, it's the best option, as signing "Gary" is equivalent to signing East St Louis in St Louis, or Camden in Philadelphia.
Quote from: SkyPesos on October 21, 2021, 09:20:00 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on October 21, 2021, 09:06:11 PM
Not to mention, I-65 breaks off towards Indy in Lake County, and I always felt like signing "Indiana" was at least a partial nod to Indianapolis from Chicago via 80, 90, 94, and 294, in addition to the more northerly destinations along 80/90 and 94
I used to be against "Indiana" as the EB control city in Chicago, until I realized that it signifies the connection to I-65 and Indianapolis by signing the whole state. Imo, it's the best option, as signing "Gary" is equivalent to signing East St Louis in St Louis, or Camden in Philadelphia.
Thanks for adding more info. Using IN covers folks going to Indy, Evansville, and even Louisville/Nashville. And E. St. Louis used to be a control city, but is now in same vein as Gary.
Wisconsin works same way, many on 90 or 94 out of Chicago land, are heading to points in that state. Milwaukee works interchangeably on I-94.
Didn't see this thread... Damn.
Kenly. I-795 doesn't take you to Kenly, damn you! Add "TO US 301" to make more sense.
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.6874402,-77.9670061,3a,29.6y,141.67h,96.81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGrOLMsUI1ISNhJSP7k4TVw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192