Control "cities" that aren't cities

Started by huskeroadgeek, February 13, 2011, 03:08:47 PM

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brownpelican

Quote from: Grzrd on February 15, 2011, 09:23:42 PM
I haven't been to New Orleans in a while, but I think "Vieux Carre" is still used for the French Quarter on I-10 westbound.

You are correct. Also on I-10 west, you see on the guide signage from Carrollton to Causeway Blvd:
N O Intl Airport
Baton Rouge


nyratk1

There's Eastern LI for various exits onto I-495 (particularly in Nassau and NYC) and I believe there's a control area of "South Shore" for the exit off of I-495 for the southbound Sagtikos Pkwy.

PAHighways

Quote from: Michael in Philly on February 14, 2011, 11:43:12 AMWho hates Cleveland?  There's actually a "Pittsburgh, Cleveland" for through traffic where I-70 leaves the Turnpike at New Stanton.

It's a mutual hatred stemming from the longest rivalry in the American Football Conference.

"Ohio and West" are used from Exit 57 heading west on 76, but "Youngstown OH" is used on I-79 and I-376 as a control city for the Turnpike.

PAHighways

Appropriately enough, the city with the second highest number of bridges behind Venice, Italy, has control bridges on the Interstates:

I-279 North
Fort Duquesne Bridge

I-579 South
Veterans Bridge
Liberty Bridge

cjk374

Quote from: 74/171FAN on February 16, 2011, 12:15:21 PM
I totally forgot about my current school  ;-)



Exit 84 on I-20 here in Louisiana used to have Louisiana Tech University as the control point.  Exit 81 used to have Grambling State Univ. listed underneath Grambling (town's name) as control points (w/o the LA 149 shield).  But when they poured new concrete between Ruston and Grambling in the early 90s, all of the signs were changed.  Exit 81 just had Grambling listed as the control point (with the LA 149 shield added), and exit 84 wound up with Ruston listed as the control point.  Both schools are still mentioned on smaller BGSs about a mile and a half from their respective exits.
Runnin' roads and polishin' rails.

hbelkins

Quote from: 74/171FAN on February 16, 2011, 12:15:21 PM
I totally forgot about my current school  ;-)



That's fairly new, isn't it? Didn't that sign used to say "Bluefield" (or maybe "Bluefield, W. Va.?)


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

Michael in Philly

Quote from: PAHighways on February 16, 2011, 06:58:11 PM
Quote from: Michael in Philly on February 14, 2011, 11:43:12 AMWho hates Cleveland?  There's actually a "Pittsburgh, Cleveland" for through traffic where I-70 leaves the Turnpike at New Stanton.

It's a mutual hatred stemming from the longest rivalry in the American Football Conference.

"Ohio and West" are used from Exit 57 heading west on 76, but "Youngstown OH" is used on I-79 and I-376 as a control city for the Turnpike.

Wouldn't the oldest rivalry in the AFC be the Steelers and Ravens?  Just think about Cleveland's football history....
RIP Dad 1924-2012.

agentsteel53

nah, it's the Steelers and Raiders.  the Raiders are actually successful on occasion.
live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com

PAHighways

Quote from: Michael in Philly on February 17, 2011, 01:29:24 PMWouldn't the oldest rivalry in the AFC be the Steelers and Ravens?  Just think about Cleveland's football history....

The Ravens have only been around since the 1996 NFL Season but ignoring the Browns' lack of success, Cleveland is closer than Baltimore.

Mr_Northside

Quote from: PAHighways on February 17, 2011, 01:51:26 PM
Quote from: Michael in Philly on February 17, 2011, 01:29:24 PMWouldn't the oldest rivalry in the AFC be the Steelers and Ravens?  Just think about Cleveland's football history....

The Ravens have only been around since the 1996 NFL Season but ignoring the Browns' lack of success, Cleveland is closer than Baltimore.

I guess it just depends on how you treat the moving of a team.  I was kind of surprised when I had heard that Art Modell was even nominated for the Hall Of Fame after that crap he pulled.  (Especially with the H.O.F. just down I-77 from Cleveland). 
I don't have opinions anymore. All I know is that no one is better than anyone else, and everyone is the best at everything

Hot Rod Hootenanny

Quote from: Mr_Northside on February 17, 2011, 01:57:28 PM
Quote from: PAHighways on February 17, 2011, 01:51:26 PM
Quote from: Michael in Philly on February 17, 2011, 01:29:24 PMWouldn't the oldest rivalry in the AFC be the Steelers and Ravens?  Just think about Cleveland's football history....

The Ravens have only been around since the 1996 NFL Season but ignoring the Browns' lack of success, Cleveland is closer than Baltimore.

I guess it just depends on how you treat the moving of a team.  I was kind of surprised when I had heard that Art Modell was even nominated for the Hall Of Fame after that crap he pulled.  (Especially with the H.O.F. just down I-77 from Cleveland). 

Nominated by the same folks who do the Irsays the same way Cleveland would do Modell.
Beyond that, Modell will never step inside the Football HOF while alive.
Please, don't sue Alex & Andy over what I wrote above

mightyace

Quote from: Michael in Philly on February 17, 2011, 01:29:24 PM
Wouldn't the oldest rivalry in the AFC be the Steelers and Ravens?  Just think about Cleveland's football history....

This or Pittsburgh-Cleveland is true for the AFC.  But, I include the AFL in as well so you have things like:
Denver-KC, Jets - Bills - New England with Miami joining in later (but Miami may not count as they did become good until after the merger.
My Flickr Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mightyace

I'm out of this F***KING PLACE!

74/171FAN

#62
Quote from: hbelkins on February 17, 2011, 11:30:04 AM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on February 16, 2011, 12:15:21 PM
I totally forgot about my current school  ;-)

That's fairly new, isn't it? Didn't that sign used to say "Bluefield" (or maybe "Bluefield, W. Va.?)
I'm sure it did and  believe it should but I did not actually visit VT until about a year ago.
I am now a PennDOT employee.  My opinions/views do not necessarily reflect the opinions/views of PennDOT.

BigMattFromTexas


Kacie Jane

Quote from: mightyace on February 17, 2011, 10:33:26 PM
Quote from: Michael in Philly on February 17, 2011, 01:29:24 PM
Wouldn't the oldest rivalry in the AFC be the Steelers and Ravens?  Just think about Cleveland's football history....

This or Pittsburgh-Cleveland is true for the AFC.  But, I include the AFL in as well so you have things like:
Denver-KC, Jets - Bills - New England with Miami joining in later (but Miami may not count as they did become good until after the merger.

Emphasis in the first post added by me.

Especially if we're talking about rivalries, then the Ravens are the Ravens, and the Browns are the Browns.  The same fans who rooted for the Browns until 1995 root for the new Browns, and no one in Cleveland roots for the Ravens.  Since I think it's the fans and the passion more than anything that determine a rivalry, that all had to start from scratch with the Ravens, but when the Browns came back, they picked up right where they left off.

So Steelers-Browns is definitely the oldest rivalry in the AFC, since they've been butting heads since the '40s.  The old AFL teams didn't start until the '60s.

BigMattFromTexas

So arguing about the biggest rivalry in the AFC has nothing to do with control destinations..
BigMatt

kharvey10

southbound IL 255

Why can't we have both in the same direction

Also, IL 203 also uses it, and all of I-24 in Illinois has the northbound westbound control city for Interstate 57.

I-24

IL 203 North

Last but not least, don't forget about this

I-255 north at IL 162

Scott5114

Quote from: BigMatt on February 18, 2011, 07:07:08 PM
So arguing about the biggest rivalry in the AFC has nothing to do with control destinations..
BigMatt

Indeed. I am going to end the discussion by unilaterally declaring the biggest rivalry in the AFC to be between the Florida Marlins and Jeff Gordon, and any disagreement with this will be punishable by death..
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

nexus73

The 101/199 partial interchange has as 101 north's control city "Oregon Coast".

Rick
US 101 is THE backbone of the Pacific coast from Bandon OR to Willits CA.  Industry, tourism and local traffic would be gone or severely crippled without it being in functioning condition in BOTH states.

SignBridge

#69
I could write a book on this subject, but I'll try to keep it brief here. In the New York City metro area, New York State DOT for many years used common sense destinations like the names of bridges and tunnels, which are numerous around NY City and regions like Eastern L.I. and South Shore, mentioned in an above post. Those were logical and intuitive. For better or worse (I say worse) NYSDOT in recent years has gone on a strict control cities kick which they call "sign requirements programs". Apparently they decided it was more important to strictly comply with the Federal MUTCD, which requires city names.

So now, if you're looking for I-95 South/George Washington Bridge/New Jersey, the sign may say I-95 South/Newark or Trenton. Technically correct, but not very logical in some cases, depending which direction you're coming from. And I think most drivers knew to look for the George Washington Bridge.

And I agree with those who say the control city name should not be used if you're already in that city. In Los Angeles, at the interchange of "the 405 and "the 101" it used to say "Los Angeles" even though you're well inside the city, where "Downtown L A" would have made more sense.

When the BGS's show destinations that are technically correct but not logical and intuitive, I say we are strangling ourselves in rules, instead of using common sense. And this defeats the purpose of guide signs.  

Scott5114

You might need to step back and consider the viewpoint of someone not familiar with NYC. If I was from, say, Atlanta and headed home from a vacation in, say, Maine, I doubt "George Washington Bridge" would be a very useful control point. You're more likely to find "I-95 south" or the next major city after New York helpful. If you're from out of town, you won't be familiar with which bridges go where. "New Jersey" is marginally more useful but a state is a pretty big place. A road with a control city of "New Jersey" could just as easily be bound for Trenton as it is for Atlantic City. 

Think about it in terms of an unfamiliar city–if you, a Long Islander, were headed east through the I-35/I-40 split in OKC, would "Wichita" and "Ft Smith" be more helpful, or "Remington Park" and "Tinker AFB"? The latter might be more helpful for locals but probably not for the folks from out of town–who are the most likely to need the signs!

One should also bear in mind that nobody's destination is the George Washington Bridge. It may be a handy waypoint in navigating but it is not a plausible final destination, which control cities are intended to be.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

TheStranger

#71
Quote from: SignBridge on February 28, 2011, 10:17:40 PM


And I agree with those who say the control city name should not be used if you're already in that city. In Los Angeles, at the interchange of "the 405 and "the 101" it used to say "Los Angeles" even though you're well inside the city, where "Downtown L A" would have made more sense.

Still does, as a matter of fact!  I'm not sure "Downtown LA" is used very much as a control city, even when individual districts elsewhere (Echo Park, Hollywood) ARE.

Quote from: Scott5114Think about it in terms of an unfamiliar city–if you, a Long Islander, were headed east through the I-35/I-40 split in OKC, would "Wichita" and "Ft Smith" be more helpful, or "Remington Park" and "Tinker AFB"? The latter might be more helpful for locals but probably not for the folks from out of town–who are the most likely to need the signs!

It actually depends: are the out-of-towners thru thraffic, OR are they trying to navigate within the city itself?

I think that most signs should use two control cities whenever possible (not always possible, mind you), one for the long-distance control, and one for the nearest local control.  CalTrans is pretty good about this, especially in rural areas (i.e. San Luis Obispo/San Francisco on US 101 northbound near Pismo Beach), though there are many examples (often in downtowns) where they go much more local than one would expect.

There are no long-distance control cities in SF, with I-80 being Bay Bridge/Oakland and US 101 being either Civic Center/Golden Gate Bridge or San Jose, no mention of Sacramento, Los Angeles, or Eureka.

In downtown Los Angeles, the only long-distance control city in use is Sacramento for I-5 (replacing the old US 99-era Bakersfield that was in use until the 1980s), with 101 being signed north for Hollywood/Ventura (no mention of San Francisco), 5 south being given the Santa Ana control city (not San Diego) and 10 being signed either for Santa Monica or San Bernardino (not Phoenix).

There is at least one case here where the bridge absolutely would be a legitimate destination control city, and that is the Golden Gate Bridge on 101 in SF.

Sacramento's control cities on the other hand tend to be much more like what you describe, Scott, with no local controls except for "Roseville" off of Route 160 north (old US 40/99E).  I-80 and Business 80/US 50 west are both signed for San Francisco, I-80 and Business 80 east for Reno, US 50 east for South Lake Tahoe (with some signage for Placerville), I-5 north almost entirely signed for Redding, I-5 south for Los Angeles, and Route 99 south for Fresno (formerly Los Angeles prior to I-5 being built).   Woodland does get mentioned a little bit on 5 north.

In that situation, I think that a few more local secondary controls would be very helpful (Elk Grove for 99 south, Stockton for 5 south, Roseville for 80 and Business 80 east, maybe Davis for 80 west).

Chris Sampang

Michael in Philly

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 01, 2011, 11:26:45 AM
You might need to step back and consider the viewpoint of someone not familiar with NYC. If I was from, say, Atlanta and headed home from a vacation in, say, Maine, I doubt "George Washington Bridge" would be a very useful control point. You're more likely to find "I-95 south" or the next major city after New York helpful. If you're from out of town, you won't be familiar with which bridges go where. "New Jersey" is marginally more useful but a state is a pretty big place. A road with a control city of "New Jersey" could just as easily be bound for Trenton as it is for Atlantic City.  

Think about it in terms of an unfamiliar city–if you, a Long Islander, were headed east through the I-35/I-40 split in OKC, would "Wichita" and "Ft Smith" be more helpful, or "Remington Park" and "Tinker AFB"? The latter might be more helpful for locals but probably not for the folks from out of town–who are the most likely to need the signs!

One should also bear in mind that nobody's destination is the George Washington Bridge. It may be a handy waypoint in navigating but it is not a plausible final destination, which control cities are intended to be.

The flip side of the "a state is a pretty big place" argument is that "New Jersey" may be more meaningful to people not from a narrow slice of the east coast than "Trenton" is.  Since, if you're in upper Manhattan or the Bronx, the George Washington Bridge is a reasonable route to get to any point in New Jersey, why not just say "New Jersey" rather than single out a medium-sized (90,000 or so) city 60-odd miles away?  Going the other direction, they changed "New England" to "New Haven" and "Upstate NY" to "Albany."  I don't see that either of those is an improvement.  I used to like the "New England" signs; evocative of seafood and history and childhood vacations....

But as I've said many times, American "control city" practices are wildly inconsistent.  (I'm not clear what "control city" even means.)  They drive Europeans - who are used to being able to follow, say, "Lyon" from 400 miles away and care less about route numbers - nuts; it's the main complaint you see on European forums about American signage.  Which is their problem to some extent, but they've got a point; would it kill New Jersey to recognize that I-80 goes to places more significant than the Delaware Water Gap, or would it kill Pennsylvania to recognize Philadelphia in Pittsburgh and vice versa?
RIP Dad 1924-2012.

SignBridge

Well.................lots of good opinions on this issue. Scott, you actually make a valid point about the NYC area signs. And the engineers who wrote the Federal MUTCD agree with you. The national policy stated in the Manual is that Freeway signs should be oriented for drivers not familiar with the area, which is what NYSDOT seems to be doing nowadays.

But I still take the one exception in areas like Philadelphia, or NYC where there are easily a dozen bridges and tunnels that many drivers look for by name. Maybe where sign space permits, both the control city and the bridge/tunnel could be shown.

Michael, how about "Albany - Tappan Zee Br." for the Thruway out of NYC? (chuckle!) I actually agree with their having replaced "New England" as a destination. It was too general, as it applies to the whole Northeast area from NYC. But it might be reasonable to show "Connecticut" instead of New Haven..........

BTW, since you brought up European practice, have you seen the signs on the northbound NJ Turnpike approaching the big toll barrier at the Exit
16/18 split? "George Wash. Bridge" is shown on the top line, with the route shields for 46-80-95 on the bottom line like on the German Autobahn. A rare exception to standard American practice. You can see it on Google Earth, by the big Secaucus Rail Station.

Michael in Philly

Quote from: SignBridge on March 01, 2011, 08:59:55 PM
Well.................lots of good opinions on this issue. Scott, you actually make a valid point about the NYC area signs. And the engineers who wrote the Federal MUTCD agree with you. The national policy stated in the Manual is that Freeway signs should be oriented for drivers not familiar with the area, which is what NYSDOT seems to be doing nowadays.

But I still take the one exception in areas like Philadelphia, or NYC where there are easily a dozen bridges and tunnels that many drivers look for by name. Maybe where sign space permits, both the control city and the bridge/tunnel could be shown.

Michael, how about "Albany - Tappan Zee Br." for the Thruway out of NYC? (chuckle!) I actually agree with their having replaced "New England" as a destination. It was too general, as it applies to the whole Northeast area from NYC. But it might be reasonable to show "Connecticut" instead of New Haven..........

BTW, since you brought up European practice, have you seen the signs on the northbound NJ Turnpike approaching the big toll barrier at the Exit
16/18 split? "George Wash. Bridge" is shown on the top line, with the route shields for 46-80-95 on the bottom line like on the German Autobahn. A rare exception to standard American practice. You can see it on Google Earth, by the big Secaucus Rail Station.

Re "New England," the same thing I said about "New Jersey" applies:  whether you're going to Greenwich, northern Maine, or some place in between, it's all the same direction when you're on the Alexander Hamilton Bridge.  Although now that I think of it, if I were heading for Vermont or the Berkshires, I probably would take 87....)  But if we have to use cities, how about Boston and Philadelphia rather than New Haven and Trenton (neither of which I'd describe as "major").

Another instance where naming the bridge is much more useful than a destination would be the Whitestone and Throgs Neck - if you're in the Bronx and you're heading for any point from eastern Queens east, the two are interchangeable and which one you take is going to be a function of what traffic reports are saying at the moment.  So I don't see how you sign 295 and 678 informatively except by naming the bridges (and the route numbers themselves of course).
RIP Dad 1924-2012.



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