RTOR question

[Scott5114]

Near where I work are two signalized intersections with three lanes on the side streets: one left-turn-only lane, one left-turn, straight, and right-turn lane, and one right-turn-only lane, for three lanes in all. In both cases the arterial that is intersected is four lane undivided.

• If a red ball is displayed, can I still make a right turn from the center option lane after stopping?
• If a doghouse signal on the right lane is displaying a green right arrow and red ball and the regular signal above the center option lane is also displaying a red ball, can I still make a right turn from the center lane? If so, do I need to stop?
• If a regular signal on the right lane is displaying a green right arrow and the regular signal above the center option lane is also displaying a red ball, can I still make a right turn from the center lane? If so, do I need to stop?
• Is the answer to #3 different if pavement markings direct the right-turn-only lane around the curve to "create" a new lane on the arterial, and the green arrow for the right lane permanently displayed?

I expect I know the answers, but what is expected and what is the law are often totally different things.

[realjd]

• If a red ball is displayed, can I still make a right turn from the center option lane after stopping?

I think this one is state dependent. Here in Florida the answer is yes. There are a few places with a double or triple right turn where they will put up a sign that say something like "no right turn on red for second lane", but those are rare.

• If a doghouse signal on the right lane is displaying a green right arrow and red ball and the regular signal above the center option lane is also displaying a red ball, can I still make a right turn from the center lane? If so, do I need to stop?

There's no actual 1-signal-per-lane requirement, so I would say the green arrow counts for any lane.

• If a regular signal on the right lane is displaying a green right arrow and the regular signal above the center option lane is also displaying a red ball, can I still make a right turn from the center lane? If so, do I need to stop?

Same.

• Is the answer to #3 different if pavement markings direct the right-turn-only lane around the curve to "create" a new lane on the arterial, and the green arrow for the right lane permanently displayed?

I don't know about legally, but I'd stop in this case. If nothing else, safety would dictate it since the green arrow doesn't indicate a protected turn for your lane like it would for the previous examples.

I think the "proper" way to signalize this would be like so:

[RLA]     [RB]        [RB]      [RRA]
[YLA] [YLA][YB] [YB][YRA] [YRA]
[GLA] [GLA][GB] [GB][GRA] [GRA]

Around here they will either do it like this, or sometimes leave off the 3-head signals on the side leaving only the doghouses.

[NE2]

I suspect this differs among the states. I know some states allow turning right on a red arrow and others don't.

[myosh_tino]

I suspect this differs among the states. I know some states allow turning right on a red arrow and others don't.

A few years go I was in Portland, OR and I was shocked to see cars making a right turn on a right-red-arrow (this happened on the southbound I-205 exit ramp to US 26/SE Powell Blvd).  Here in California, that is a no-no but I guess it's legal in Oregon.

[froggie]

I know some states allow turning right on a red arrow and others don't.

Correct.  8 states specifically allow a right turn on red arrow, while 9 states plus DC and Puerto Rico specifically prohibit it.  The remainder apparently do not have any language either way.

[corco]

It probably varies by cop just as much as by state

[J N Winkler]

I think I understand the scenario Scott describes, after reading his post carefully three times.  My difficulty understanding it comes from incredulity that anyone could think the lane configuration described was a good idea.

[NE2]

It probably varies by cop just as much as by state

In Florida it's been pretty well established that you can turn right on a red arrow, and that you can turn right from any lane of a multilane right turn configuration. I doubt the fact that it's a left-and-straight lane would change anything, since it doesn't affect turning on red from the right lane when there's no turn-only lane. So in Florida I believe you would be allowed to turn right on red from an option lane no matter what (unless no turn on red is signed, of course).

Do any states assign meaning to the location of normal traffic lights above the lane? I would think that any light would apply to any lane (unless a sign says otherwise).

[Scott5114]

I looked on Google Maps and it appears even though I go through the intersections in question every day, I misremembered the lane config on at least one of them (the one in #1 and #2)–it has no left turn option for the center lane. The other intersection I can't check as it has recently underwent reconstruction to the described layout. (It may very well have an all-three-movement option from the center lane.)

[froggie]

Do any states assign meaning to the location of normal traffic lights above the lane? I would think that any light would apply to any lane (unless a sign says otherwise).

Not sure if there's any legal standing relating to this, but up until recently, VDOT's policy was one signalhead per lane.  Since they maintain the vast majority of roads in the state, their policies are generally the defacto statewide policy.

[Brandon]

Near where I work are two signalized intersections with three lanes on the side streets: one left-turn-only lane, one left-turn, straight, and right-turn lane, and one right-turn-only lane, for three lanes in all. In both cases the arterial that is intersected is four lane undivided.

Can't speak for Oklahoma, but in Illinois it is as follows,

• If a red ball is displayed, can I still make a right turn from the center option lane after stopping?

Only if there is no "No Turn On Red" signage.  Otherwise, no.  Usually around here, we have signs that say "No Turn On Red Except From Right Lane".

• If a doghouse signal on the right lane is displaying a green right arrow and red ball and the regular signal above the center option lane is also displaying a red ball, can I still make a right turn from the center lane? If so, do I need to stop?

We use towers here, but the idea is the same.  You do not need to stop, and you can make the turn.  Just make sure your signal is on. 

• If a regular signal on the right lane is displaying a green right arrow and the regular signal above the center option lane is also displaying a red ball, can I still make a right turn from the center lane? If so, do I need to stop?

Again, no, see answer to #2.

• Is the answer to #3 different if pavement markings direct the right-turn-only lane around the curve to "create" a new lane on the arterial, and the green arrow for the right lane permanently displayed?

Again, no.

I expect I know the answers, but what is expected and what is the law are often totally different things.

Good question though, and I'm sure the answer will vary by state or province.

[Traffic]

As a signal designer in NC, I can tell you the law here, but it will differ from state to state as laws vary, despite the definitions referenced in the MUTCD.

Currently in NC, you can turn right on red on a red ball or red arrow unless a "NO TURN ON RED" sign is posted to prohibit the turn.  In the case of dual rights (or combo right), right on red is allowed from either lane unless signed.  NC is working towards revising state law to comply with the MUTCD and prohibit rights on red arrows, but it is not law yet.

We don't have many situations that have a right and thru-right combo with a green arrow, but the few that I know of allow the right turn from either lane on the green arrow, as long the lead car in the second lane is not going thru.  For this reason, we generally avoid right turn overlaps (red ball and green arrow) for thru-right combo lanes.  Exclusive dual rights are OK, but combos are not, and we try to avoid them.  I recently vised a signal to remove one because a study found that most rights used the exclusive lane so they could turn on red easier.

[Alps]

Usually, you can't make a right turn from the center lane on red, but check your state's laws. Some states allow it unless signed otherwise, others prohibit.

Second question: As long as your way is clear, you can turn freely without stopping because of the green arrow.

Third question: I'd say the same. Your movement is permitted.

Fourth question: In that case I'd stop first, just because it's unclear, but still proceed after that.

[Duke87]

You know, I would have never even thought that a blanket prohibition on turns on red from a lane other than the rightmost lane might exist. I know there's a spot here in Stamford where we have a sign that explicitly says "Right Turn on Red from Right Lane Only". And thus... my logic always has been that if there's a sign in location X saying it's not allowed, no such sign in location Y must mean it's legal.

Of course, this is the sort of esoteric technicality where my concern as a driver would simply be whether or not it looks safe to do. I will do it if it is, legal or not. And not worry about getting in trouble since it would take a real dick of a cop to stop me for something like that.

Besides, if you pull up to a red light looking to go right, you would in most cases logically get into the rightmost lane, anyway. Only exception is if you know you're going to make a left shortly afterward.

[Ace10]

You know, I would have never even thought that a blanket prohibition on turns on red from a lane other than the rightmost lane might exist. I know there's a spot here in Stamford where we have a sign that explicitly says "Right Turn on Red from Right Lane Only". And thus... my logic always has been that if there's a sign in location X saying it's not allowed, no such sign in location Y must mean it's legal.

There's a sign like that when exiting north onto Bluebonnet (or is it Siegen Lane?) from the Mall of Louisiana in Baton Rouge, LA. You could make a right on red only from the right-most lane. And I think both right-turn lanes used arrows. But I'd always see people turn right from the lane closer to the middle on red.