New York State Thruway

[kalvado]

As noted, the issue isn't right-of-way [...]

So what, then, is the issue? What specific law or treaty condition–or even general principle–do the Senecas cite that would prevent NYSTA from carrying out maintenance on the highway? (The article isn't immediately readable to all of us.)

https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/seneca-report.pdf
https://www.courthousenews.com/tribal-challenge-to-thruway-put-on-chopping-block/
The biggest thing they want is a share of tolls - and to make it more fun, a retroactive charge to the day Thruway was built. $1 per car for 3 miles of the road seems steep, though, but I suspect they will get at least something.

[cl94]

They're gonna get something. But $1/car is more than twice the current toll for that stretch, which I think a judge or arbitrator will note.

[empirestate]

As noted, the issue isn't right-of-way [...]

So what, then, is the issue? What specific law or treaty condition–or even general principle–do the Senecas cite that would prevent NYSTA from carrying out maintenance on the highway? (The article isn't immediately readable to all of us.)

https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/seneca-report.pdf
https://www.courthousenews.com/tribal-challenge-to-thruway-put-on-chopping-block/
The biggest thing they want is a share of tolls - and to make it more fun, a retroactive charge to the day Thruway was built. $1 per car for 3 miles of the road seems steep, though, but I suspect they will get at least something.

That's what they want, but what do they claim the state is doing wrong? Or to put it another way, how does the Seneca nation rebut this assertion (from the second article): "There is no violation to address, and there is nothing to order state officials to do, without first negating one or more of [those] points"? What violation do they claim? What are they ordering state officials to do (or not do)?

The first article mentions trespassing–is that it? Do the Senecas simply assert that when crews arrive to perform maintenance, they are unlawfully entering someone else's property? Or has that been superseded by later decisions?

(I haven't read these documents in full–the answer's probably in there somewhere. But I figured it would be helpful to place the relevant facts into this discussion, since we're already considering the merits of the case, as it were.)

[kalvado]

As noted, the issue isn't right-of-way [...]

So what, then, is the issue? What specific law or treaty condition–or even general principle–do the Senecas cite that would prevent NYSTA from carrying out maintenance on the highway? (The article isn't immediately readable to all of us.)

https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/seneca-report.pdf
https://www.courthousenews.com/tribal-challenge-to-thruway-put-on-chopping-block/
The biggest thing they want is a share of tolls - and to make it more fun, a retroactive charge to the day Thruway was built. $1 per car for 3 miles of the road seems steep, though, but I suspect they will get at least something.

That's what they want, but what do they claim the state is doing wrong? Or to put it another way, how does the Seneca nation rebut this assertion (from the second article): "There is no violation to address, and there is nothing to order state officials to do, without first negating one or more of [those] points"? What violation do they claim? What are they ordering state officials to do (or not do)?

The first article mentions trespassing–is that it? Do the Senecas simply assert that when crews arrive to perform maintenance, they are unlawfully entering someone else's property? Or has that been superseded by later decisions?

(I haven't read these documents in full–the answer's probably in there somewhere. But I figured it would be helpful to place the relevant facts into this discussion, since we're already considering the merits of the case, as it were.)

My understanding: Senecas allowed a road through their land, and got some change for that. Now they claim the contract wasn't executed properly (they may have some point about it, and not all I's are dotted - that's for sure) so want a redo - for more money. Legal position - the original contract is illegal, so the road is built illegally, state personnel is not welcome on that patch of land.  No maintenance, no construction, no nothing - it is their property, no trespassing please. When things would go sour, blocking all uninvited visitors to their land (aka blocking stretch of thruway for drivers) can become an option.

[cl94]

When things would go sour, blocking all uninvited visitors to their land (aka blocking stretch of thruway for drivers) can become an option.

Which they have done in the past. They're known for setting up roadblocks.

[steviep24]

When things would go sour, blocking all uninvited visitors to their land (aka blocking stretch of thruway for drivers) can become an option.

Which they have done in the past. They're known for setting up roadblocks.

Yep. Usually in the form of a giant tire fire.

[SignBridge]

Yeah, if they are alleging that the state's maintenance crews would be trespassing, then isn't their position also that the general public is trespassing when using the road? And if that's the case why have they not permanently closed the road at their border?  That would get the State Government's attention real quick!

Of course then they couldn't be claiming entitlement to a share of toll revenues. LOL And I guess they feel they have more to gain in the long run by making their case the legally correct way, thru the courts.

[SignBridge]

Coming from Long Island I've never travelled to that part of Western New York State and I have I have no knowledge of the politics or economy of that area.

However I must ask this historical question: Given that the State had to negotiate a payment to the Indian Nation to build the road in the first place, wouldn't it have been easier and smarter to by-pass the Reservation and avoid the whole issue? Or was there a compelling need to build the Thruway strictly along the Lake shore? Were other alignments considered at the time?

Looking at the map the Thruway could have gone straight south from Buffalo to Gowanda and then gradually curved back west and joined the current route southwest of Fredonia. Would that not have been a reasonable alternative route?   

[cl94]

Looking at the map the Thruway could have gone straight south from Buffalo to Gowanda and then gradually curved back west and joined the current route southwest of Fredonia. Would that not have been a reasonable alternative route?

Not only is it significantly longer, there's only a strip of a couple miles from the lake that has flat terrain. Gowanda area is relatively hilly. The reservation is basically a strip of land that follows Cattaraugus Creek from the lake to the Gowanda village limit. Back in the 1950s, this wasn't a major political issue. Then casinos happened...

[SignBridge]

Okay, so you're saying given that it wasn't a major political issue at the time, it was more practical and more economical to pay the Indian Nation a one-time sum of money, than to detour 15 to 20 miles around the Reservation thru hilly terrain. Is that about right?

[vdeane]

This article has a bit more information about the history of the issue: https://www.newyorkupstate.com/western-ny/2018/04/seneca_nation_sues_new_york_state_over_thruway_being_built_on_native_land.html
https://newsmaven.io/indiancountrytoday/archive/seneca-nation-says-that-thruway-fight-is-only-the-beginning-5wIgYxe2t0-Ra5oIxfcCWQ/

This one is interesting because it details how the fight extended to a bridge inspection.  If the Thruway is like NYSDOT, work would typically be done by in-house maintenance forces and not contracted out, which I guess the Senecas don't like. https://buffalonews.com/2019/09/15/thruway-authority-to-senecas-were-ready-to-fix-the-road/

This PDF has a lot of history regarding the easement, including the federal "termination era" regarding the reservations: https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/seneca-complaint.pdf

[okc1]

Is giving the Senecas more land adjacent to the reservation an option, as was done near Salamanca for I-86?

[empirestate]

Random thought I had while driving the NJ Turnpike today (we haven't done this yet, have we?): What if we had named the Thruway service areas the way the NJTP does; that is, after a prominent person associated with the nearby area?

For a couple of examples, the Ardsley plaza could be John D. Rockefeller or Washington Irving, the Seneca and Ontario plazas could be Susan B. Anthony and Frederick Douglass, the Chittenango plaza for L. Frank Baum, and so forth. Others?

[WNYroadgeek]

We have an agreement!

The New York State Thruway Authority today announced an agreement with the Seneca Nation of Indians to begin work to the approximately three-mile stretch of the New York State Thruway (I-90 eastbound and westbound) that runs through the Cattaraugus Territory. Work on this critical infrastructure project between exit 57A (Eden — Angola) and exit 58 (Silver Creek) will begin tomorrow and will be completed in phases to properly rebuild the roadway.

http://www.thruway.ny.gov/news/pressrel/2019/09/2019-09-25-seneca-nation-agreement.html

[CtrlAltDel]

Wow, that is fast:

Work on this critical infrastructure project [...] will begin tomorrow and will be completed in phases to properly rebuild the roadway.

(emphasis mine)

Still, I wonder what the agreement consists of. There was nothing in the press release about that.

[seicer]

It's repairs for this year and what seems to be a partial reconstruction next year, taking the highway down to the concrete roadway, performing full-depth repairs, and installing a new asphalt driving surface.

[SignBridge]

Let's hope this flies. The NYSTA must have given some substantial concession to the Seneca Nation to get this agreement done.

[webny99]

It's repairs for this year and what seems to be a partial reconstruction next year

I understood the partial reconstruction was going to be this year as well, at least if they can get it done before winter:

The project is expected to be completed within eight to 10 weeks barring any unforeseen conditions or circumstances, and weather permitting. If the weather makes full completion not possible before winter, it will be resumed and completed as soon as the weather allows in the spring.

[hbelkins]

So, will they finally build an exit to that Indian tobacco shop? 

[cl94]

So, will they finally build an exit to that Indian tobacco shop? 

I'd use it if it were built. Makes it easier to get cheap rez gas!

[kalvado]

So, will they finally build an exit to that Indian tobacco shop? 

I'd use it if it were built. Makes it easier to get cheap rez gas!

They can build a service plaza with tobacco shop, gas station, and Taste NY store - all being just outside of FHWA jurisdiction.   

[D-Dey65]

So what was it that made the Seneca Nation change their minds, if it wasn't money?

[Beltway]

So what was it that made the Seneca Nation change their minds, if it wasn't money?

Lack of a direct interchange with the Thruway?

[Duke87]

Yeah, if they are alleging that the state's maintenance crews would be trespassing, then isn't their position also that the general public is trespassing when using the road? And if that's the case why have they not permanently closed the road at their border?  That would get the State Government's attention real quick!

That's not how trespassing works.

First of all, legally, you are allowed by default to walk (or drive) onto private property unless the owner of said property informs you to the contrary. This is why you see signs that say "Posted - No Trespassing" - the signs establish that you're not allowed to be there and the owner of the property can legally press charges against you (or in many states, but not in New York, shoot you) for disregarding them with no further dialogue required. If there aren't signs, the owner can still verbally tell you "hey, get off of my property", but then so long as you promptly comply with that request you have committed no crime.

The other important thing here is the owner of the property is not obligated to apply the same rules to everyone. They can tell some people "get off, you're not welcome" while allowing other people to roam freely about.

Ergo, it is perfectly consistent with property law for the Senecas to tell the state government they're not allowed to touch the road and call it trespassing if they do, while still permitting everyone else to drive through unimpeded.

[Buffaboy]

So apparently NYSTA has started work on cashless tolling around Albany and Syracuse...

The article I read says that completion systemwide will be around the end of next year.

It's a $355 million project in that area.