NYC Congestion Pricing

[1995hoo]

Staten Island is geographically, geologically, and topographically, New Jersey. Why it was ever considered part of NY is beyond me. It has extremely similar terrain and geological features as eastern NJ, and the borough as a whole does not look at all like it's a part of "New York City". Driving on the West Shore Expressway you would not think you were in a city or anywhere near one. It is more rural than parts of Long Island. The Verrazano Bridge, going from NY to NY, span is almost 2.5 miles long and the Geothals bridge is only 1/2 - 1 mile long at most. It has 3 short bridges connecting it to NJ, but one, long bridge connecting it to NYC, showing that it most likely broke off from NJ ages ago. Also, redesignating it NJ may show how ridiculous the double-toll is to drive from NJ to Brooklyn. The goethals bridge shouldn't be tolled, only the Verrazano, since that is the real "Hudson River Crossing". Also, this would allow the speed limits to be bumped to 55 mph, since NYC caps all highways at 50 mph within it's confines.. To summarize, it is closer, and looks very much more like NJ than NY, let alone NYC. Please forgive me of this has been discussed elsewhere in the forums years ago. I just joined the site this month, and while I do look at the first page of threads in a topic, like off-topic, to see if someone already started a similar topic, but I don't check every page, also I might be sharing a new specific reason/justification of why that same idea should be implemented, so Don't get all "oh FritzOwl already included that in his pave all of America with roads plan!"

Maybe if you got your wish and Staten Island were part of New Jersey, the Staten Island Expressway could be turned over to the New Jersey Turnpike and upgraded to some version of a dual-dual setup (though space constraints might require use of double-decking to pull that off, which would would raise various other issues relating both to aesthetic issues and how to tie it into the approach to the Verrazzano). That, in turn, would reduce the amount of congestion on the SIE and maybe reduce the amount of time it shows as "Black" or "Red" on Google Maps.

[tmoore952]

Florida has a couple of surface roads that are tolled, though I don't believe any of them have traffic lights.

A US location with a toll to drive through a neighborhood might be Lake Harmony, Pennsylvania. You have to pay a toll to use Moseywood Road as a shortcut from PA-940 to PA-903. It's a privately-owned road.

Another place like that is Hilton Head, SC. We wanted to go to the lighthouse at the far southern end of the island, but south of the last entry/exit for the route to the mainland (which is the roundabout at the end of US 278), is a toll booth. Everything south of that point is privately owned and we had to pay to pass that point.

EDIT - yes - just noticed that I am mentioning US 278 in a thread where many other posts are mentioning I-278 for good reason.

[RoadRage2023]

Staten Island is geographically, geologically, and topographically, New Jersey. Why it was ever considered part of NY is beyond me. It has extremely similar terrain and geological features as eastern NJ, and the borough as a whole does not look at all like it's a part of "New York City". Driving on the West Shore Expressway you would not think you were in a city or anywhere near one. It is more rural than parts of Long Island. The Verrazano Bridge, going from NY to NY, span is almost 2.5 miles long and the Geothals bridge is only 1/2 - 1 mile long at most. It has 3 short bridges connecting it to NJ, but one, long bridge connecting it to NYC, showing that it most likely broke off from NJ ages ago. Also, redesignating it NJ may show how ridiculous the double-toll is to drive from NJ to Brooklyn. The goethals bridge shouldn't be tolled, only the Verrazano, since that is the real "Hudson River Crossing". Also, this would allow the speed limits to be bumped to 55 mph, since NYC caps all highways at 50 mph within it's confines.. To summarize, it is closer, and looks very much more like NJ than NY, let alone NYC. Please forgive me of this has been discussed elsewhere in the forums years ago. I just joined the site this month, and while I do look at the first page of threads in a topic, like off-topic, to see if someone already started a similar topic, but I don't check every page, also I might be sharing a new specific reason/justification of why that same idea should be implemented, so Don't get all "oh FritzOwl already included that in his pave all of America with roads plan!"

Maybe if you got your wish and Staten Island were part of New Jersey, the Staten Island Expressway could be turned over to the New Jersey Turnpike and upgraded to some version of a dual-dual setup (though space constraints might require use of double-decking to pull that off, which would would raise various other issues relating both to aesthetic issues and how to tie it into the approach to the Verrazzano). That, in turn, would reduce the amount of congestion on the SIE and maybe reduce the amount of time it shows as "Black" or "Red" on Google Maps.

What's this?? I never said that anywhere. You're just making stuff up now?

I was giving this site the benefit of the doubt, but reading the comments on this topic is confirming my first impression.

"Baiting" people into bans, immediately accusing new members of duplicate accounts for having the same opinions of banned users, somehow bringing race into the topic of highway overpasses/etc.  Now manufacturing quotes. I never said any borough of NYC shouldn't be part of the city, or anything about speed limits, or the Verrazano bridge. Where are you getting this from?

Googlemaps showing slow and stopped traffic all the time has nothing to do with what state parts of NYC exist in. It's the amount of cars. I don't think widening every road in the city (impossible).to even the size of route 95 in NJ would help more than a little.

Is there a way to delete my account? It seems this forum isn't a place of fair/normal discussion.

[Scott5114]

Generally, when a user no longer wishes to participate in the forum, we recommend that they scramble their password and cease using the account. We do not delete user accounts on request because doing so interferes with certain functions of the forum.

[TheDon102]

According to the MTA's report congestion will actually increase in the Bronx especially the Cross-Bronx Expressway. So we are just shifting traffic from the 'CBD' of Manhattan to the less affluent outer boroughs. Manhattan below 60th street is majority white and has a median income of $83,008, the Bronx which is around 90% non-white  and has a per capita income of $23,862, seems like they want to shift traffic from white areas to non-white neighborhoods. Also I don't know how this will affect traffic flow in Manhattan, delivery trucks will continue to clog Manhattan streets unless everyone gets a cargo bike and taxis/ubers are still needed in Manhattan and will also clog streets. NYCDOT is on a mission to make driving in Manhattan worse and worse and this congestion pricing further drives that mission but trucks and taxis aren't going away anytime soon regardless of what politicians and new urbanists want.

Also a couple of things, the London congestion pricing is only in effect from 7 am to 6 PM M-F and from noon-6 PM on Saturday/sunday and covers a much smaller geographical area, NYC congestion pricing is 24/7 including weekends from my understanding.

[TheDon102]

I did the math, and with the current toll increases and proposed rates to drive in midtown Manhattan next year,  a commuter from Elizabeth NJ to Midtown would pay approximately $85 in tolls in total to commute both ways. (Using the Optimal Route of I-278/Battery tunnel)

First of all, if you're commuting to Manhattan on a daily basis and you insist on getting there by car instead of by train, you need to seriously reevaluate your choices in life.

I wonder what all those vehicular tunnels and bridges going in and out of Manhattan are for then.

[RoadRage2023]

According to the MTA's report congestion will actually increase in the Bronx especially the Cross-Bronx Expressway. So we are just shifting traffic from the 'CBD' of Manhattan to the less affluent outer boroughs. Manhattan below 60th street is majority white and has a median income of $83,008, the Bronx which is around 90% non-white  and has a per capita income of $23,862, seems like they want to shift traffic from white areas to non-white neighborhoods. Also I don't know how this will affect traffic flow in Manhattan, delivery trucks will continue to clog Manhattan streets unless everyone gets a cargo bike and taxis/ubers are still needed in Manhattan and will also clog streets. NYCDOT is on a mission to make driving in Manhattan worse and worse and this congestion pricing further drives that mission but trucks and taxis aren't going away anytime soon regardless of what politicians and new urbanists want.

Also a couple of things, the London congestion pricing is only in effect from 7 am to 6 PM M-F and from noon-6 PM on Saturday/sunday and covers a much smaller geographical area, NYC congestion pricing is 24/7 including weekends from my understanding.

London's fee is around $16. That could be either a little cheaper or a little more expensive than the NYC plan, depending on how they define the "peak hours" here. I agree with the rest of the comment, hit the nail on the head.

[MikeTheActuary]

I wonder what all those vehicular tunnels and bridges going in and out of Manhattan are for then.

Busses, trucks, and masochists.

[kalvado]

I wonder what all those vehicular tunnels and bridges going in and out of Manhattan are for then.

Busses, trucks, and masochists.

Lol... I wrote half a page of a response yesterday, and then decided not to post. Now you said same thing in 3 words!

[1995hoo]

I wonder what all those vehicular tunnels and bridges going in and out of Manhattan are for then.

Busses, trucks, and masochists.

Bridges and tunnels are built for people to kiss each other? Who knew?

[kphoger]

Busses, trucks, and masochists.

Bridges and tunnels are built for people to kiss each other? Who knew?

meh.  It's just an older plural form.

[kalvado]

Busses, trucks, and masochists.

Bridges and tunnels are built for people to kiss each other? Who knew?

meh.  It's just an older plural form.

No internet community is complete without a nitpicker, grammar nazi, and the most hated person.

[MikeTheActuary]

I wonder what all those vehicular tunnels and bridges going in and out of Manhattan are for then.

Busses, trucks, and masochists.

Bridges and tunnels are built for people to kiss each other? Who knew?

Those of us who post before we're fully caffeinated need love too. 

[roadman65]

It's all for the birds anyway.  Just like the technology dependency we have.

Both inflation and technology are both  a thing we will never able to control.

No sense in saying what we should have done or should be doing.  It's a thing that just spins and spins.

[D-Dey65]

The old proposals of Robert Moses just keep looking better and better.

Robert Moses built overpasses purposefully low so buses full of Black people couldn't get to the beaches as easily.

I still reject that lie. There's no logic behind it whatsoever. Oh, so you want me to think white people drive cars and blacks and Hispanics only use trucks and buses? Where were the entrance ramps with "Whites Only" signs on them? I've seen enough historic images of the parkways to know there isn't a single one.

Do you know what other kinds of vehicles used to be forbidden from the parkways? Motorcycles and station wagons?  How is that an attempt to keep minorities from using the beaches, or any other parks?

Did you also know that Moses' original plan for the Sheridan Expressway was to make it a trucks-only highway, and it was going to include what became the New England Thruway? In time that road was going to have to accept buses as well.

See the funny thing of that is, there IS a bus to Jones Beach, which uses the Moses-planned Meadowbrook Parkway. No, the overpasses in that area have not been raised from their original construction. No, it does not use special low-clearance buses.

And, well, this makes sense because if you look at a map you'll realize there is no access to Jones Beach without using one of the parkways. Trucks need to be able to get there to deliver stuff, so the overpasses on the parkways leading there were built high enough to accommodate them in at least one lane, and by virtue of this can also accommodate buses.

Also, if NY 135 had been completed with the extension to Wantagh State Parkway, trucks would've been better able to deliver goods to Jones Beach without having to use any of the other parkways. I still remember maps of of the Wantagh State Parkway that had the dual name "Jones Beach Causeway" from south of where that wye interchange with NY 135 was supposed to be.

[jeffandnicole]

The old proposals of Robert Moses just keep looking better and better.

Robert Moses built overpasses purposefully low so buses full of Black people couldn't get to the beaches as easily.

I still reject that lie. There's no logic behind it whatsoever. Oh, so you want me to think white people drive cars and blacks and Hispanics only use trucks and buses? Where were the entrance ramps with "Whites Only" signs on them? I've seen enough historic images of the parkways to know there isn't a single one.

Do you know what other kinds of vehicles used to be forbidden from the parkways? Motorcycles and station wagons?  How is that an attempt to keep minorities from using the beaches, or any other parks?

Look back to the time when the roadways were proposed and built. Different era than today.

[The Ghostbuster]

There is no way any of the parkways could be modified to accommodate trucks. Any attempts would likely require massive numbers of homes and businesses to be demolished, which would make the locals go ballistic. Also, there are massive space constraints that would also prevent any such project from taking place. It's a no-win situation.

[Rothman]

The old proposals of Robert Moses just keep looking better and better.

Robert Moses built overpasses purposefully low so buses full of Black people couldn't get to the beaches as easily.

I still reject that lie. There's no logic behind it whatsoever. Oh, so you want me to think white people drive cars and blacks and Hispanics only use trucks and buses? Where were the entrance ramps with "Whites Only" signs on them? I've seen enough historic images of the parkways to know there isn't a single one.

Do you know what other kinds of vehicles used to be forbidden from the parkways? Motorcycles and station wagons?  How is that an attempt to keep minorities from using the beaches, or any other parks?

Look back to the time when the roadways were proposed and built. Different era than today.

Also look at the racial makeup of those who owned cars and would use them for the originally intended purpose.

Then, look at where Moses located parks under his tenure...

The idea that racial considerations did not come into play is pretty weak when one considers the wealth of evidence to the contrary, whether in The Power Broker or otherwise.

[D-Dey65]

He built parks and parkways in the city too. You know that right?

Again, I've never dismissed the fact that he was a racist, but there have never been any signs restricting white people to Jones Beach and non-whites to Jacob Riis Park

[Rothman]

He built parks and parkways in the city too. You know that right?

Again, I've never dismissed the fact that he was a racist, but there have never been any signs restricting white people to Jones Beach and non-whites to Jacob Riis Park

Dear heavens, of course.  It's where in the City he built them.

Right, no overt signage.  The North learned quickly that was a bad look, unlike the South.  So, us Northerners refined and mastered covert racism...

[kalvado]

He built parks and parkways in the city too. You know that right?

Again, I've never dismissed the fact that he was a racist, but there have never been any signs restricting white people to Jones Beach and non-whites to Jacob Riis Park

Dear heavens, of course.  It's where in the City he built them.

Right, no overt signage.  The North learned quickly that was a bad look, unlike the South.  So, us Northerners refined and mastered covert racism...

Ok, let's throw an oddball.
Parkways are still "cars only", not even relieved to normal max height - essentially upholding Moses values.
Do you think that the fact parkways rules are not changing and not opening up to things like commercial vans means current NY administration is also racist?

[TheDon102]

How does congestion pricing right the wrongs of the Moses era? Are we going to start tolling the parkways too? I don't quite understand the relevance here. Manhattan south of 60th street is majority non-hispanic white as of the latest census, The outer boroughs sans Staten Island are all majority non-white...see the pattern here. If you drive in the wealthy white areas in Manhattan you will be tolled, the outer boroughs get the shaft in regards to more pollution/more traffic...as usual.

[Rothman]

How does congestion pricing right the wrongs of the Moses era? Are we going to start tolling the parkways too? I don't quite understand the relevance here. Manhattan south of 60th street is majority non-hispanic white as of the latest census, The outer boroughs sans Staten Island are all majority non-white...see the pattern here. If you drive in the wealthy white areas in Manhattan you will be tolled, the outer boroughs get the shaft in regards to more pollution/more traffic...as usual.

That's a much better question and no, it doesn't.

[kalvado]

How does congestion pricing right the wrongs of the Moses era? Are we going to start tolling the parkways too? I don't quite understand the relevance here. Manhattan south of 60th street is majority non-hispanic white as of the latest census, The outer boroughs sans Staten Island are all majority non-white...see the pattern here. If you drive in the wealthy white areas in Manhattan you will be tolled, the outer boroughs get the shaft in regards to more pollution/more traffic...as usual.

What kind of routings you have in mind saying "the outer boroughs get ...more traffic"? Manhattan is the destination as a center of a  very high-profile city. Outer boroughs are much less so.

[D-Dey65]

How does congestion pricing right the wrongs of the Moses era? Are we going to start tolling the parkways too? I don't quite understand the relevance here. Manhattan south of 60th street is majority non-hispanic white as of the latest census, The outer boroughs sans Staten Island are all majority non-white...see the pattern here. If you drive in the wealthy white areas in Manhattan you will be tolled, the outer boroughs get the shaft in regards to more pollution/more traffic...as usual.

That's a much better question and no, it doesn't.

That's right, it doesn't. Here's the true relevance, though -- Congestion pricing is an attack on drivers, and limited-access highways aren't. Plus, south of 60th Street isn't dominated by one class of people. The "wealthy white areas" are all north of 60th Street, until you get to Harlem.