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Update on I-69 Extension in Indiana

Started by mukade, June 25, 2011, 08:55:31 AM

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ITB

#4900
Another set. Again, photos were taken Friday, November 10, 2023.


Looking north from the State Road 144 overpass in Johnson County. Traffic was backed up because work was still continuing on the lane re-striping after the traffic shift.


North of the SR 144 overpass, traffic was redirected onto the right shoulder to allow for the removal of old lane markings. There was a team of four at work, on their hands and knees, working to scrap and pull up the old stripes. These workers were awfully close to the vehicular traffic, only three or four feet away. That's no exaggeration. To say the least, it was a less than ideal situation.


It was getting dark quickly.


Another perspective looking north.


Turning around, here's the view looking south. There was a significant traffic backup on the northbound exit ramp. Not a good situation at all.


Another view of the ramp backup; looking southeast. This is what happens when drivers have difficultly entering a traffic circle. Yes, roundabouts do have limitations. They're great for lightly traveled rural interchanges, but, otherwise, can be problematic when there is moderate and heavy traffic present.


Here's a southeast perspective with the twin mainline bridges over Bluff Creek in the foreground. The heavy ramp traffic is due in part to the current closure of the northbound exit ramp at the Smith Valley Road interchange. Also, there might have been a football game at Center Grove High School, where games tend to draw a pretty big crowd. At any rate, this is an untenable situation if it persists long term.


Looking south across the SR 144 roadway.


And another, showing the decorative element at the interchange.


Here's another view looking north from the overpass.


One more looking south from the SR 144 overpass.

To wrap up, there was a sign near the Smith Valley Road interchange informing that access to Fairview Road would be closed on or after November 16.


tdindy88

Quote from: ilpt4u on November 11, 2023, 01:04:59 PM
This is a spot where state-based controls would work fine. 465 WB: Illinois. 465 EB: Ohio

IF a 65 shield is added to WB with Chicago, would have to add one EB with Louisville, also

But 465 doesn't go anywhere near Illinois or Ohio. As much as I don't mind control cities on 3dis, I don't think they would work too well on I-465 without overcrowding the sign. You could sign Chicago, but the airport would be just as useful of a control city (an airport logo would be very useful here,) how about St. Louis then while we're at it, or even Kokomo for those wanting to head up to the north end of the city and take US 31 north. In that case, why JUST Chicago? This is why we don't do control cities on I-465, being the Crossroads of America means you just have so many potential destinations out of the city.

This sign is just a result of I-74 being multiplexed on I-465. You remove the 465 shield and suddenly the sign would work at any standard interstate-to-interstate junction. It's weird but I understand putting up I-74's control cities and actually acknowledging that I-74 is on the route. I'm very curious to see what they plan for the I-65 junction with 465/69/74. Will we get both 69 and 74's control cites listed there?

While I do think it's neat seeing Fort Wayne signed from here, I do have to wonder, what about Indianapolis? It's signed as the control city from Evansville (soon) up all the way to past Southport Road and then it just disappears. There's nothing signed to specifically direct you toward Downtown Indianapolis. I wish INDOT would just put signs up at the county line letting you know that you are now entering Indianapolis instead of just assuming you can figure it out from here.

ilpt4u

#4902
Quote from: tdindy88 on November 11, 2023, 01:47:46 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on November 11, 2023, 01:04:59 PM
This is a spot where state-based controls would work fine. 465 WB: Illinois. 465 EB: Ohio

IF a 65 shield is added to WB with Chicago, would have to add one EB with Louisville, also

But 465 doesn't go anywhere near Illinois or Ohio. As much as I don't mind control cities on 3dis, I don't think they would work too well on I-465 without overcrowding the sign. You could sign Chicago, but the airport would be just as useful of a control city (an airport logo would be very useful here,) how about St. Louis then while we're at it, or even Kokomo for those wanting to head up to the north end of the city and take US 31 north. In that case, why JUST Chicago? This is why we don't do control cities on I-465, being the Crossroads of America means you just have so many potential destinations out of the city.

This sign is just a result of I-74 being multiplexed on I-465. You remove the 465 shield and suddenly the sign would work at any standard interstate-to-interstate junction. It's weird but I understand putting up I-74's control cities and actually acknowledging that I-74 is on the route. I'm very curious to see what they plan for the I-65 junction with 465/69/74. Will we get both 69 and 74's control cites listed there?

While I do think it's neat seeing Fort Wayne signed from here, I do have to wonder, what about Indianapolis? It's signed as the control city from Evansville (soon) up all the way to past Southport Road and then it just disappears. There's nothing signed to specifically direct you toward Downtown Indianapolis. I wish INDOT would just put signs up at the county line letting you know that you are now entering Indianapolis instead of just assuming you can figure it out from here.
All fair and legitimate points

Indy Airport certainly should be signed, especially due to traffic returning from IU-Bloomington.

I believe the only time the Airport is signed as a Control for 465 is 65 SB approaching 465 SB, which has a similar college traffic pattern coming from PU-West Lafayette

Regarding Indy, I wonder if the signage at the NB Harding St/I-69 split will direct Indy traffic to follow Harding St/Old 37 to downtown?

tdindy88

Quote from: ilpt4u on November 11, 2023, 02:37:25 PM
Regarding Indy, I wonder if the signage at the NB Harding St/I-69 split will direct Indy traffic to follow Harding St/Old 37 to downtown?

The signage plans for that interchange just mention Epler Ave and Harding St at the exit, there's no mention of downtown at all. Technically there will be another Indianapolis sign, at the I-65 interchange, since I-69 follows the I-465 loop. Same thing at the I-70 interchange on the east side.

roadman65

Quote from: tdindy88 on November 11, 2023, 02:47:39 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on November 11, 2023, 02:37:25 PM
Regarding Indy, I wonder if the signage at the NB Harding St/I-69 split will direct Indy traffic to follow Harding St/Old 37 to downtown?

The signage plans for that interchange just mention Epler Ave and Harding St at the exit, there's no mention of downtown at all. Technically there will be another Indianapolis sign, at the I-65 interchange, since I-69 follows the I-465 loop. Same thing at the I-70 interchange on the east side.

Does I-74 EB or WB into I-435 sign Downtown as well?  I think not. So this will not be an oddity. It's basically not controlling you only to Downtown, but all parts of the city via the I-465 loop.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

tdindy88

Quote from: roadman65 on November 11, 2023, 02:56:03 PM
Quote from: tdindy88 on November 11, 2023, 02:47:39 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on November 11, 2023, 02:37:25 PM
Regarding Indy, I wonder if the signage at the NB Harding St/I-69 split will direct Indy traffic to follow Harding St/Old 37 to downtown?

The signage plans for that interchange just mention Epler Ave and Harding St at the exit, there's no mention of downtown at all. Technically there will be another Indianapolis sign, at the I-65 interchange, since I-69 follows the I-465 loop. Same thing at the I-70 interchange on the east side.

Does I-74 EB or WB into I-435 sign Downtown as well?  I think not. So this will not be an oddity. It's basically not controlling you only to Downtown, but all parts of the city via the I-465 loop.

No it does not. Good point.

nwi_navigator_1181

Quote from: tdindy88 on November 11, 2023, 01:47:46 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on November 11, 2023, 01:04:59 PM
This is a spot where state-based controls would work fine. 465 WB: Illinois. 465 EB: Ohio

IF a 65 shield is added to WB with Chicago, would have to add one EB with Louisville, also

But 465 doesn't go anywhere near Illinois or Ohio. As much as I don't mind control cities on 3dis, I don't think they would work too well on I-465 without overcrowding the sign. You could sign Chicago, but the airport would be just as useful of a control city (an airport logo would be very useful here,) how about St. Louis then while we're at it, or even Kokomo for those wanting to head up to the north end of the city and take US 31 north. In that case, why JUST Chicago? This is why we don't do control cities on I-465, being the Crossroads of America means you just have so many potential destinations out of the city.

This sign is just a result of I-74 being multiplexed on I-465. You remove the 465 shield and suddenly the sign would work at any standard interstate-to-interstate junction. It's weird but I understand putting up I-74's control cities and actually acknowledging that I-74 is on the route. I'm very curious to see what they plan for the I-65 junction with 465/69/74. Will we get both 69 and 74's control cites listed there?

While I do think it's neat seeing Fort Wayne signed from here, I do have to wonder, what about Indianapolis? It's signed as the control city from Evansville (soon) up all the way to past Southport Road and then it just disappears. There's nothing signed to specifically direct you toward Downtown Indianapolis. I wish INDOT would just put signs up at the county line letting you know that you are now entering Indianapolis instead of just assuming you can figure it out from here.

Placing control cities outside of the ones tied to I-74 would be a mess, considering there's a mishmash of controls that would be assigned for I-465 westbound (St. Louis, Chicago) and eastbound (Louisville, Dayton, Fort Wayne - though Fort Wayne could be viable because of I-69s concurrency).

Just to keep it simple, use the airport symbol and "TO I-70" for westbound, and "TO I-65" for eastbound. That should be a serviceable frame of reference for drivers until they reach the respective junctions proper.
"Slower Traffic Keep Right" means just that.
You use turn signals. Every Time. Every Transition.

Interstate 69 Fan

Quote from: ITB on November 11, 2023, 12:07:58 PM


Here's the sign in the front of the Epler Avenue overpass; looking northwest. Peoria, huh? It is what it is. Besides we knew about it beforehand. But how about putting underneath an I-65 shield and adding Chicago.
This, to me, screams that we'll be getting some sort of ramp opening by mid-Summer. My best bet is probably 465EB to 69SB, or maybe even 69NB to 465EB.
Wonder when signs for 69 on 465 will start going up, they should start showing up sometime soon, considering the interchange is expected to open in 2024.
Apparently I’m a fan of I-69.  Who knew.

nwi_navigator_1181

Quote from: ITB on November 11, 2023, 12:07:58 PM
Here's the sign in the front of the Epler Avenue overpass; looking northwest. Peoria, huh? It is what it is. Besides we knew about it beforehand. But how about putting underneath an I-65 shield and adding Chicago.

Would've helped myself if I saw this before I made the post I made earlier. My bad.

I figured the mainline interstates would be given their respective control cities; even though the trajectory from that point would favor I-65 and Chicago, I-70 and St. Louis is right at the doorstep, and that would likely get the nod first.

I'm pretty sure the space is simply a result of circumstance, seeing it's a whole APL sign with a lot of information on that right side.

With all that being said, it would be helpful to provide supplemental signage before the split. Maybe something like,
"TO I-65, USE I-465/74 EAST
TO I-70/Airport, USE I-465/74 WEST" (As i said previously, an airport symbol could easily suffice.)

Or, a la Illinois, use another overhead gantry with BGS supplemental signage,

"St. Louis-Chicago, use I-465/74 WEST
Louisville-Dayton, use I-465/74 EAST"

In either scenario, long range drivers have some frame of reference of where to go. Those going for Downtown Indianapolis will have references in extreme close proximity with I-65 and I-70 very close by.
"Slower Traffic Keep Right" means just that.
You use turn signals. Every Time. Every Transition.

tdindy88

I got a chance to see this corridor yesterday evening and loved what I was seeing with the construction. One further note about the mentions of I-65 and I-70 at the upcoming I-69/I-465 interchange:  I saw there is a dynamic message sign several miles back with the travel times to I-465, I-65 via I-465 east (signed as 465E/65,) and I-70 via I-465 west (signed as 465W/70.) So, I guess 65 and 70 are sort of being mentioned for those traveling north on I-69. Similarly, on I-69 southbound on approaching I-465 on the north side they do the same thing except with I-465 west to US 31 and I-465 south to I-70. I suppose that's one way of doing this.

mrsman

Quote from: ilpt4u on November 11, 2023, 02:37:25 PM
Quote from: tdindy88 on November 11, 2023, 01:47:46 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on November 11, 2023, 01:04:59 PM
This is a spot where state-based controls would work fine. 465 WB: Illinois. 465 EB: Ohio

IF a 65 shield is added to WB with Chicago, would have to add one EB with Louisville, also

But 465 doesn't go anywhere near Illinois or Ohio. As much as I don't mind control cities on 3dis, I don't think they would work too well on I-465 without overcrowding the sign. You could sign Chicago, but the airport would be just as useful of a control city (an airport logo would be very useful here,) how about St. Louis then while we're at it, or even Kokomo for those wanting to head up to the north end of the city and take US 31 north. In that case, why JUST Chicago? This is why we don't do control cities on I-465, being the Crossroads of America means you just have so many potential destinations out of the city.

This sign is just a result of I-74 being multiplexed on I-465. You remove the 465 shield and suddenly the sign would work at any standard interstate-to-interstate junction. It's weird but I understand putting up I-74's control cities and actually acknowledging that I-74 is on the route. I'm very curious to see what they plan for the I-65 junction with 465/69/74. Will we get both 69 and 74's control cites listed there?

While I do think it's neat seeing Fort Wayne signed from here, I do have to wonder, what about Indianapolis? It's signed as the control city from Evansville (soon) up all the way to past Southport Road and then it just disappears. There's nothing signed to specifically direct you toward Downtown Indianapolis. I wish INDOT would just put signs up at the county line letting you know that you are now entering Indianapolis instead of just assuming you can figure it out from here.
All fair and legitimate points

Indy Airport certainly should be signed, especially due to traffic returning from IU-Bloomington.

I believe the only time the Airport is signed as a Control for 465 is 65 SB approaching 465 SB, which has a similar college traffic pattern coming from PU-West Lafayette

Regarding Indy, I wonder if the signage at the NB Harding St/I-69 split will direct Indy traffic to follow Harding St/Old 37 to downtown?


Control cities for the I-465 Beltway.

As noted it is INDOT practice to only sign the control cities for 74 (and now 69) over the portions that are overlapped with those routes and ignoring the other controls that exist around town.

Essentially, in their view, 465 has no control cities, but 74 and 69 do.

Should this be the case? IMO, No.  Control cities for a beltway are an extremely valid way to route long distance traffic around a city center.  There is a place for them, independent of the coexistance of other routes.  Of course, the fact that 1 interstate (soon to be 2 interstates) and several state and US highways are also quietly multiplexed along this route allows for an even greater need to at least guide people where they need to go.  And IMO, since there are sign limitations, the bigger cities should take precedence within reason.  So of course, we cannot sign the seven other controls of the 2 dis that emanate from Indianapolis, but there is definitely room for 2 controls in each direction, for the ENTIRE BELTWAY.

So what would I do at this location?

465 WEST 74 WEST                    465 EAST 74 EAST 69 NORTH
Peoria                                         Cincinnati
Chicago                                       Fort Wayne

A supplemental sign will indicate taking 465 east to 65 north for Downtown Indianapolis.


From the other highways, I'd use the following controls if the signs are up to being updated:

65 from Louisville:  Peoria/Chicago and Cincinnati/Fort Wayne
74 from Cincinnati: St Louis/Peoria and Fort Wayne/Chicago
70 from Dayton:  St Louis/Peoria and Fort Wayne/Chicago
69 from Fort Wayne:  Louisville/Evansville and Chicago/Peoria
865: FOrt Wayne/Cincinnati   65 from Chicago to 465: Evansville/Louisville
74 from Peoria: Chicago/Fort Wayne  and  Louisville/Cincinnatti
70 from St Louis:  Chicago/Fort Wayne  and  Louisville/Cincinnatti

Again, each routing would get the control cities that long distance travel is likely going to that are on the opposite side of town.  Dayton is not used on 465 as Cincinnatti does denote the general area until reaching the eastern 465/70 interchange.  Supplemental signage for other control cities can be used if there is demand for such.  I would also support supplemental signage to guide travel to Downtown Indy onto 65 or 70 or a really good arterial and signage to guide travel for the several US and state highways that are also quietly routed along the beltway.

roadman65

Control cities for other interstates could be placed on supplementary signage if need be for I-70 West to St. Louis, etc.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

paulthemapguy

In that case, the only valid control city for I-465, a beltway completely within one municipality, is "Indianapolis." Or "In Circles".
Avatar is the last interesting highway I clinched.
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National collection status: 361/425. Only 64 route markers remain

cjw2001

Quote from: paulthemapguy on November 12, 2023, 09:48:42 PM
In that case, the only valid control city for I-465, a beltway completely within one municipality, is "Indianapolis." Or "In Circles".
I465 also passes through Carmel, Beech Grove, and Lawrence in addition to Indianapolis.

SEWIGuy

So the control city obsession has spread to this topic as well.

NWI_Irish96

Quote from: cjw2001 on November 13, 2023, 04:15:22 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on November 12, 2023, 09:48:42 PM
In that case, the only valid control city for I-465, a beltway completely within one municipality, is "Indianapolis." Or "In Circles".
I465 also passes through Carmel, Beech Grove, and Lawrence in addition to Indianapolis.

Also Speedway and unincorporated Boone County
Indiana: counties 100%, highways 100%
Illinois: counties 100%, highways 61%
Michigan: counties 100%, highways 56%
Wisconsin: counties 86%, highways 23%

Rothman

Quote from: SEWIGuy on November 13, 2023, 04:28:23 PM
So the control city obsession has spread to this topic as well.
Spreading like a plague of useless subjectivity.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

roadman65

Hey at least INDOT is finally adding control destinations to the overlaps on I-465 with I-74. In the past it never had.

Now I-69 is finally getting them. Hopefully in Evansville we'll see NB ramps to I-69 finally signed for Indy when this project terminates.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

vtk

#4918
Indianapolis
next 14 exits
Wait, it's all Ohio? Always has been.

roadman65

Quote from: vtk on November 14, 2023, 12:38:25 AM
Indianapolis
next 14 exits

California has Long Beach Next 10 Exits on I-405 I remember back in 1988. Don't know if that sign still exists today.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

silverback1065

Quote from: vtk on November 14, 2023, 12:38:25 AM
Indianapolis
next 14 exits

I have never seen them do this for a major city, in this case i am referring to the largest city.

Moose

#4921
Around here if we call it anything else but 465. I have heard it called the 465 Loop
Never once heard it called a Beltway...
So as a control. use Indianapolis Loop.

465 does technically leave Marion County/Indianapolis. It ventures into Hamilton County/Carmel for a short bit.. it's an epic speed trap. (Also a bit into Boone)

In other news, the last stop light will be GONE.


"Motorists should expect the traffic signal at S.R. 37 and Fairview Road to be removed on or after Thursday, November 16."

https://i69finishline.com/on-track-project-update-november-13-2023/

ITB

#4922
A little new courtesy of the I-69 Finish Line newsletter. The northbound exit ramp to Smith Valley Road opened yesterday. This will be followed by the opening of the northbound entrance ramp on Friday, November 17. And as mentioned in the reply above, the traffic signal at the SR 37/Fairview Road intersection is scheduled to be removed on or after November 16.

Here's a series of recent screenshots from INDOT traffic cameras:


INDOT Traffic Camera
From last week, a team unloads rebar on the future eastbound lanes of I-465 in preparation for placement. This point is about midway between the new eastbound bridge over the White River and the future I-69 interchange. And for those interested, the sign reads Mann Road, 1 mile.


INDOT Traffic Camera
Here's the view a couple of days later. The towers of downtown Indianapolis are in the background left.


INDOT Traffic Camera
One day later, the rebar is now in place. This rebar arrangement is typical for Continuously Reinforced Concrete Pavement.


INDOT Traffic Camera
And the very next day, the paving crew at work.


INDOT Traffic Camera
Turning around, the view an hour later.


INDOT Traffic Camera
With evening rapidly approaching, they call it a day.


INDOT Traffic Camera
Early next morning work resumed. In the background construction of the north abutment of the I-69N to I-465W flyover is underway. The pilings are clearly evident where the crane is located. Whether they will need to build another pier southeast of the abutment, I don't know. That's a pretty long stretch for girders. By the time the girders are placed, traffic most likely will have been shifted to the new eastbound pavement. But if, for whatever reason, some lanes remain open, they most certainly will have to be temporarily closed during the girder placement process.


INDOT Traffic Camera
Again, placing rebar in preparation for another paving pass.


INDOT Traffic Camera
Looking south from near the SR 144 interchange at the new traffic pattern where northbound traffic is now running on the new northbound pavement.


INDOT Traffic Camera
On I-465, east of the SR 37/Harding Street interchange, preparations are underway to begin paving a new section of westbound pavement.

ITB


One more screen grab:


INDOT Traffic Camera
Nice later afternoon view showing the completed paving work depicted above. Note in the mid-background the entrance and path of the eastbound exit ramp to Harding Street/Sr 37.

It is apparent, to me at least, Walsh and Milestone are pressing hard to make the new eastbound lanes ready for a traffic shift before winter sets in. If they can accomplish that — and they probably will — the demolition of the westbound bridges (White River, Harmon Ditch, Harding Street, etc.) can then take place in January and February. That might be the plan. Let's see what happens.


Moose

Quote from: ITB on November 14, 2023, 05:45:39 PM


It is apparent, to me at least, Walsh and Milestone are pressing hard to make the new eastbound lanes ready for a traffic shift before winter sets in. If they can accomplish that — and they probably will — the demolition of the westbound bridges (White River, Harmon Ditch, Harding Street, etc.) can then take place in January and February. That might be the plan. Let's see what happens.

"By Thanksgiving much of the planned I-69 Finish Line construction for the year will be complete. Crews will continue to work during the winter months as weather permits, but overall construction and traffic should decrease noticeably.  "

Its clear they have a date goal in mind, and likely an amount of work they want done.



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