I think the Greenville Mall and Goldsboro Mall in Greenville and Goldsboro need to be demolished badly. They are boring and too small for the city, I wish those were rebuilt as a bigger mall.
A couple of malls in the Springfield, MA area have to go: Eastfield Mall, and Enfield Square in Enfield, CT. Both are overshadowed by Holyoke Mall and the latter by Buckland Hills Mall. Eastfield has seen all 3 of its anchors (Sears, Macy's, and Penney's) pull out in the past 8 years, and the only remaining anchor left in Enfield is Target (which is much newer in relation to the nearly 50 year old mall). Enfield also lost a Sears, Penney's, and Macy's.
For now I won't say any in specific, but I'm sure there are some ones that are empty or have an increasing amount of vacant space that probably won't be filled for quite some time. Brick & Mortar Retail has definitely been on the decline, and I think we all know why. K-Mart, Sears & many other big box & mall stores have been disappearing at a rapid rate.
Landmark Mall in Alexandria, Virginia. The only business that's still open there is Sears, although the former Hecht's space is now being used as (this is not a joke) a homeless shelter. The parking garage behind the mall is partially leased to a nearby Honda dealer for vehicle storage because the dealer's lot is small, and this summer part of the mall's parking is being used for commuter parking during the partial Metro shutdown (a rush-hour-only shuttle bus runs between the mall and the Pentagon subway stop).
There are plans to rebuild Landmark as a "mixed-use" development in line with the current fad, but who knows whether it'll happen because they've been talking about the idea for years now. I wouldn't be surprised if they're stalling in the hope that Sears goes under. As is the case at many malls, Sears owns their own space (and the Sears Auto Center across the way) instead of leasing it from mall management, so even if the rest of the mall is demolished, the Sears store will remain.
I think we've had a thread similar to this in the past. Edited to add: I suppose the "Dead Malls" thread is what came to mind, though it's not quite the same as this topic. (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=4059.0)
(Edited a second time to fix a punctuation error.)
My vote goes for the Logan Valley Mall in Altoona, PA. It was a dead mall when I first started visiting the area in the early 1990s, and it's only gotten deader since then.
The era of mall building is probably over. New suburbs and new cities will just not have malls anymore. An exception may exist for "lifestyle" type malls, such as the "mixed use" faux city street deals (Easton Town Center in Columbus for example). And also the outlet mall destination places (the various ones named this or that Mill, is one chain) are also doing OK.
Existing malls will tedder along. An industry is developing to repurpose malls into new things. Megachurches, swap meets, office space. Lots will just be left to rot, because unless the land has values, why spend money? Some places, the old mall might be tract housing, or a new factory, or whatever. Most places, will just sit and rot.
Couple of repurposings I can think of. In High Point, NC, the mall was purchased by nearby High Point University for eventual use, with some of the mall construction turned into academic space. Charleston, WV 's second mall, which was a traditional inside mall, was converted, with doors placed to the outside of about one-third of the space individually, the local DMV put in one of those spaces, and the remaining interior converted into the statewide backoffice of the entire DMV.
Quote from: roadman on August 16, 2019, 08:57:56 AM
My vote goes for the Logan Valley Mall in Altoona, PA. It was a dead mall when I first started visiting the area in the early 1990s, and it's only gotten deader since then.
I went to that mall last year, and it was far from dead. In fact, other than Sears, it was rather lively for a Friday evening.
The Manchester Mall in Fresno is largely derelict and has a Sears as the lone remaining anchor store. A lot of the mall has been gutted to convert to office space (ironically Caltrans has an office) and largely sits unused. The structure has this whole weird 1970s "brown" look and vibe to it that isn't all that appealing.
I was waiting to see if anyone would choose this mall Eastland Center in Harper Woods Michigan and take half the population of Detroit with it.
I forgot to mention, Wilson and Vernon park malls should be demolished too in North Carolina.
Wilson mall basically has nothing open.
Vernon Park Mall has only one store open and it's Belk.
Ford City Mall that borders Chicago and Burbank
I see no point in demolishing a mall, even if it's almost empty.
Quote from: ET21 on August 16, 2019, 04:29:50 PM
Ford City Mall that borders Chicago and Burbank
Why? It's got a lot of stores, even if one anchor is empty.
Ford City is a good mall just in a bad area.
Starcourt Mall in Hawkins.
Everett Mall is dying because it's in an awful area and competes with Alderwood (which was quick to adopt the village-style lifestyle center before Mill Creek gained traction).
While a lot of malls are dying, the small ethnic malls in some communities are booming. And in Vancouver, most of the malls have been redeveloped into full-on urban villages with high-rises.
Quote from: roadman on August 16, 2019, 08:57:56 AM
My vote goes for the Logan Valley Mall in Altoona, PA. It was a dead mall when I first started visiting the area in the early 1990s, and it's only gotten deader since then.
Logan Valley Mall is fine. It's admittedly not great, and the recent loss of Sears was a hit. But it serves the region. Draw a "5-sided figure" around Pittsburgh, Morgantown, Hagerstown, Harrisburg and State College: that's a large region and Logan Valley Mall has the only Macy's.
You probably know this, but there was a HUGE overnight fire there back in December 1994. In retrospect, it was a good thing. It allowed a re-freshing of the mall that put it a step above some of the regional competition (malls in Johnstown and Indiana - those malls are closer to dead).
Mall of America
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on August 17, 2019, 06:21:58 PM
Mall of America
And why is that? Because malls are pointless and need to turn them into mixed use development?
Quote from: mrhappy1261 on August 17, 2019, 08:58:41 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on August 17, 2019, 06:21:58 PM
Mall of America
And why is that? Because malls are pointless and need to turn them into mixed use development?
Methinks you are missing the joke.
Quote from: Brandon on August 17, 2019, 09:32:00 PM
Quote from: mrhappy1261 on August 17, 2019, 08:58:41 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on August 17, 2019, 06:21:58 PM
Mall of America
And why is that? Because malls are pointless and need to turn them into mixed use development?
Methinks you are missing the joke.
I don't even get why people do that. It makes me laugh!! :bigass: :bigass:
Quote from: Brandon on August 17, 2019, 09:32:00 PM
Quote from: mrhappy1261 on August 17, 2019, 08:58:41 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on August 17, 2019, 06:21:58 PM
Mall of America
And why is that? Because malls are pointless and need to turn them into mixed use development?
Methinks you are missing the joke.
It's also somewhat not a joke. Many natives, myself included, consider the Mall of America highly overrated.
I would really like to see the Buckland Hills Mall go away. But it's not a dead mall so it'll probably stay a little while longer.
Quote from: Brandon on August 16, 2019, 05:05:15 PM
Quote from: ET21 on August 16, 2019, 04:29:50 PM
Ford City Mall that borders Chicago and Burbank
Why? It's got a lot of stores, even if one anchor is empty.
That anchor closed because the company went Chapter 7. I still find it hard to believe that a failing department store would identify its most successful stores and sell them as is (with inventory and staff) or sell the building/lease
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on August 17, 2019, 10:46:46 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 17, 2019, 09:32:00 PM
Quote from: mrhappy1261 on August 17, 2019, 08:58:41 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on August 17, 2019, 06:21:58 PM
Mall of America
And why is that? Because malls are pointless and need to turn them into mixed use development?
Methinks you are missing the joke.
It's also somewhat not a joke. Many natives, myself included, consider the Mall of America highly overrated.
Ended up going there once when my plane was delayed 12 hours with my immediate family. Even by Mid-1990s standards it was incredibly garish, I can't imagine how poorly that place has aged with modern retail killing anchor stores.
The Mall. So we can have a full set of Capitol Streets, with the missing West Capitol Street replacing it :bigass:.
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on August 18, 2019, 03:18:33 PM
The Mall. So we can have a full set of Capitol Streets, with the missing West Capitol Street replacing it :bigass:.
That actually happened in Fresno with Fulton Mall being reopened as Fulton Street in recent years. Some of the signage in the parking garages in downtown still say "Fulton Mall." The pedestrian plaza mall type over former roadways was in large part a giant disaster in cities out west that ended implementing it.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 18, 2019, 03:21:49 PM
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on August 18, 2019, 03:18:33 PM
The Mall. So we can have a full set of Capitol Streets, with the missing West Capitol Street replacing it :bigass:.
That actually happened in Fresno with Fulton Mall being reopened as Fulton Street in recent years. Some of the signage in the parking garages in downtown still say "Fulton Mall." The pedestrian plaza mall type over former roadways was in large part a giant disaster in cities out west that ended implementing it.
I'm pretty sure that no other city in the US has DC's style of "mall".
Quote from: 1 on August 18, 2019, 04:16:51 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 18, 2019, 03:21:49 PM
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on August 18, 2019, 03:18:33 PM
The Mall. So we can have a full set of Capitol Streets, with the missing West Capitol Street replacing it :bigass:.
That actually happened in Fresno with Fulton Mall being reopened as Fulton Street in recent years. Some of the signage in the parking garages in downtown still say "Fulton Mall." The pedestrian plaza mall type over former roadways was in large part a giant disaster in cities out west that ended implementing it.
I'm pretty sure that no other city in the US has DC's style of "mall".
Not really, I was trying to steer it back to retail oriented malls that were once through streets.
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on August 17, 2019, 10:46:46 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 17, 2019, 09:32:00 PM
Quote from: mrhappy1261 on August 17, 2019, 08:58:41 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on August 17, 2019, 06:21:58 PM
Mall of America
And why is that? Because malls are pointless and need to turn them into mixed use development?
Methinks you are missing the joke.
It's also somewhat not a joke. Many natives, myself included, consider the Mall of America highly overrated.
But isn't it mainly intended to be a tourist destination moreso than just a retail establishment?
Quote from: hbelkins on August 18, 2019, 08:06:34 PM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on August 17, 2019, 10:46:46 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 17, 2019, 09:32:00 PM
Quote from: mrhappy1261 on August 17, 2019, 08:58:41 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on August 17, 2019, 06:21:58 PM
Mall of America
And why is that? Because malls are pointless and need to turn them into mixed use development?
Methinks you are missing the joke.
It's also somewhat not a joke. Many natives, myself included, consider the Mall of America highly overrated.
But isn't it mainly intended to be a tourist destination moreso than just a retail establishment?
It was a ballpark at one point.
Quote from: Brandon on August 16, 2019, 05:05:15 PM
Quote from: ET21 on August 16, 2019, 04:29:50 PM
Ford City Mall that borders Chicago and Burbank
Why? It's got a lot of stores, even if one anchor is empty.
Since when? Granted I haven't seen it in 3 or 4 years but last I checked it was not looking good for the mall. There were many articles and stories about how it was losing tenants and went through many hands to try and redevelop the space
IMHO, the Tri-State Mall in Claymont, DE (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.8154435,-75.4486496,3a,75y,348.37h,83.71t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIMx1c0lSMzfTWvTw4HajLQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656). Such has been largely a ghost town for years. Many of the smaller stores that were once in the mall moved over to an adjacent strip mall.
Lol, GoogleMaps apparently thinks that Claymont is in PA... NOT!
Quote from: PHLBOS on August 19, 2019, 01:53:04 PM
IMHO, the Tri-State Mall in Claymont, DE (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.8154435,-75.4486496,3a,75y,348.37h,83.71t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIMx1c0lSMzfTWvTw4HajLQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656). Such has been largely a ghost town for years. Many of the smaller stores that were once in the mall moved over to an adjacent strip mall.
Lol, GoogleMaps apparently thinks that Claymont is in PA... NOT!
Shhh! If PA Department of Revenue gets wind of that, they'll force merchants in the mall to collect PA sales tax. Just ask the architects of Pheasant Lane Mall in Nashua why the corner of Macy's is irregularly shaped.
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on August 19, 2019, 02:45:29 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on August 19, 2019, 01:53:04 PM
IMHO, the Tri-State Mall in Claymont, DE (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.8154435,-75.4486496,3a,75y,348.37h,83.71t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIMx1c0lSMzfTWvTw4HajLQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656). Such has been largely a ghost town for years. Many of the smaller stores that were once in the mall moved over to an adjacent strip mall.
Lol, GoogleMaps apparently thinks that Claymont is in PA... NOT!
Shhh! If PA Department of Revenue gets wind of that, they'll force merchants in the mall to collect PA sales tax. Just ask the architects of Pheasant Lane Mall in Nashua why the corner of Macy's is irregularly shaped.
For the moment, I'll assume that you were being sarcastic with your post; but in case you weren't, you're comparing apples & oranges. The Tri-State Mall & its parking lot (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.8159414,-75.4502509,568m/data=!3m1!1e3) is all inside Delaware.
The strip-mall plaza north of it (where Service King Collision & Sid Harvey's are located) OTOH has a portion of its parking lot in PA (Lower Chichester Township, Delaware County). PA
could (not sure if such is already being done) tax the owner of that plaza for that piece of parking lot.
ctusal
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on August 19, 2019, 02:45:29 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on August 19, 2019, 01:53:04 PM
IMHO, the Tri-State Mall in Claymont, DE (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.8154435,-75.4486496,3a,75y,348.37h,83.71t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIMx1c0lSMzfTWvTw4HajLQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656). Such has been largely a ghost town for years. Many of the smaller stores that were once in the mall moved over to an adjacent strip mall.
Lol, GoogleMaps apparently thinks that Claymont is in PA... NOT!
Shhh! If PA Department of Revenue gets wind of that, they'll force merchants in the mall to collect PA sales tax. Just ask the architects of Pheasant Lane Mall in Nashua why the corner of Macy's is irregularly shaped.
It's the JCPenney, not the Macy's: https://goo.gl/maps/xnmxcVofatjVEzQC7
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on August 19, 2019, 02:45:29 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on August 19, 2019, 01:53:04 PM
IMHO, the Tri-State Mall in Claymont, DE (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.8154435,-75.4486496,3a,75y,348.37h,83.71t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIMx1c0lSMzfTWvTw4HajLQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656). Such has been largely a ghost town for years. Many of the smaller stores that were once in the mall moved over to an adjacent strip mall.
Lol, GoogleMaps apparently thinks that Claymont is in PA... NOT!
Shhh! If PA Department of Revenue gets wind of that, they'll force merchants in the mall to collect PA sales tax. Just ask the architects of Pheasant Lane Mall in Nashua why the corner of Macy's is irregularly shaped.
It's actually JCPenney. But yup that would be the reason. If that wasn't like that it would force the entire mall to have to collect Massachusetts sales taxes.
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 19, 2019, 06:59:01 PM
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on August 19, 2019, 02:45:29 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on August 19, 2019, 01:53:04 PM
IMHO, the Tri-State Mall in Claymont, DE (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.8154435,-75.4486496,3a,75y,348.37h,83.71t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIMx1c0lSMzfTWvTw4HajLQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656). Such has been largely a ghost town for years. Many of the smaller stores that were once in the mall moved over to an adjacent strip mall.
Lol, GoogleMaps apparently thinks that Claymont is in PA... NOT!
Shhh! If PA Department of Revenue gets wind of that, they'll force merchants in the mall to collect PA sales tax. Just ask the architects of Pheasant Lane Mall in Nashua why the corner of Macy's is irregularly shaped.
It's actually JCPenney. But yup that would be the reason. If that wasn't like that it would force the entire mall to have to collect Massachusetts sales taxes.
Does that little patio area on the Buffalo Wild Wings extend over the state line and if so, is that considered to not be a part of its main building?
Also the Sears store just to the east comes right up to the state line, but does not cross it.
Mike
I'm surprised the BWW chose to open in the mall rather than down the street in MA. NH has a restaurant and hotel tax of 9%, while MA has the general sales tax rate of 6.25%. It explains why all the retail establishments around there are on the NH side of the border (no sales tax), while most of the restaurants are in MA.
Pecanland Mall in Monroe, LA. Why you ask?
1. The mall isn't dead yet. In fact, there are many businesses that have opened around it and they too are doing quite well. But at night, the mall becomes "ghetto".
2. Monroe's tax rate is at or very near 10%! I deem this as absolutely rediculous!
3. The mall is nearing 40 years old. For its age, it isn't "ugly"...but it's an eyesore to probably just me because....
4. A large grove of pecan trees was lost building this mall (hence the name "Pecanland"). There are still many pecan trees still standing around it, but I hate losing "country land" for the ever encroaching "cityscape".
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on August 20, 2019, 12:28:12 AM
I'm surprised the BWW chose to open in the mall rather than down the street in MA. NH has a restaurant and hotel tax of 9%, while MA has the general sales tax rate of 6.25%. It explains why all the retail establishments around there are on the NH side of the border (no sales tax), while most of the restaurants are in MA.
NH might have less restrictive blue laws than MA
Tanglewood Mall Roanoke VA. Roanoke is too small to support 2 malls. Everyone goes to Valley View. I can't believe Lafayette Square in Indianapolis is still open. The last few years I have driven by on I-65 the place looks so dead you would think it's already closed. Richmond Town Square in suburban Cleveland is another one that comes to mind. No anchor stores basically dead everyone in the area goes to Beachwood. Closer to home I would say Forest Mall in Fond Du Lac is done.
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on August 17, 2019, 10:46:46 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 17, 2019, 09:32:00 PM
Quote from: mrhappy1261 on August 17, 2019, 08:58:41 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on August 17, 2019, 06:21:58 PM
Mall of America
And why is that? Because malls are pointless and need to turn them into mixed use development?
Methinks you are missing the joke.
It's also somewhat not a joke. Many natives, myself included, consider the Mall of America highly overrated.
I'm not even a local, and I agree that it's overrated. Besides the amusement park, it's basically just like any other mall with more people and more stores. Flyover America is cool to do at least once, but other than that, there's nothing particularly amazing at MOA that can't be found elsewhere.
Golden East Crossing would also be ideal to demolish and rebuild. There's nothing there, really.
Kennedy Mall in Dubuque, IA. It's probably at only 50% capacity. There is nothing left in the food court. Two of the original 3 anchors, Sears, and Younkers, are closed, and JC Penney is on life support. The former Sears is still empty, and the former Younkers has been turned into a Vertical Jump trampoline bouncy house arcade type place. Half the people in the mall at ay one time seem to just be mall walkers, and you better not get in their way! Gets more depressing each time we're in there and we see another store has closed.
Eventually, all but maybe 10-15% of the malls we have now will be demolished. Many consumers like the "town center", open air concept. Plus, I believe leases aren't as high at a town center verses an enclosed mall, however, don't quote me. I would have to do some research to find this out.
Also, with the proliferation of online shopping, both enclosed mall owners and town center owners will be facing more competition and will be dealing with less traffic in their stores. While quickly reading some articles on leases and concepts, I read one particular article on how malls are "evolving" by having different types of businesses in them instead of just shops. We will have to see.
What could happen is that there could be one dominant "mall" in an area (see Syracuse, NY) that ends up closing 2-5 other malls in the area. The other malls are either going to just close (and sit there for Dead Mall fans to go through and document) then be demolished with either a town center or business park put up in its place. This has been happening regularly since the 1990's.
There are so many different variables that can end a mall's run: poor management, high leases, a change in demographics in the area, anchor stores going bankrupt (everybody's favorite whipping business--Montgomery Ward included here; the "death knell" of a mall), a change in shopping tastes, and online shopping. Some malls have survived, more malls have not. Some of these lots that malls were on have now become nice looking town centers (Tower Mall in Portsmouth, VA now Tower Place; Crestview Hills Mall in Crestview Hills, KY now Crestview Towne Center). Others are business parks, a car dealership (Penn-Can), empty lots, dying, or still looming like the crazy uncle no one wants to see, but can't help it anyway.
When malls were first built in the 1960's and 1970's, it fit a niche at that time. It was a way for suburban people to go shopping without having to go "downtown". But, just like a majority of things in life, people's tastes, people's income, and the technology available for people change. In this case, it has led to dying and dead malls.
Quote from: dvferyance on August 21, 2019, 06:01:57 PM
Richmond Town Square in suburban Cleveland is another one that comes to mind. No anchor stores basically dead everyone in the area goes to Beachwood.
Richmond earned an extra few years of life after Euclid Square died. But when Sears and Penney pulled out, that was the mall's last gasp.
Quote from: amroad17 on August 31, 2019, 10:41:04 PM
Eventually, all but maybe 10-15% of the malls we have now will be demolished. Many consumers like the "town center", open air concept. Plus, I believe leases aren't as high at a town center verses an enclosed mall, however, don't quote me. I would have to do some research to find this out.
Also, with the proliferation of online shopping, both enclosed mall owners and town center owners will be facing more competition and will be dealing with less traffic in their stores. While quickly reading some articles on leases and concepts, I read one particular article on how malls are "evolving" by having different types of businesses in them instead of just shops. We will have to see.
What could happen is that there could be one dominant "mall" in an area (see Syracuse, NY) that ends up closing 2-5 other malls in the area. The other malls are either going to just close (and sit there for Dead Mall fans to go through and document) then be demolished with either a town center or business park put up in its place. This has been happening regularly since the 1990's.
There are so many different variables that can end a mall's run: poor management, high leases, a change in demographics in the area, anchor stores going bankrupt (everybody's favorite whipping business--Montgomery Ward included here; the "death knell" of a mall), a change in shopping tastes, and online shopping. Some malls have survived, more malls have not. Some of these lots that malls were on have now become nice looking town centers (Tower Mall in Portsmouth, VA now Tower Place; Crestview Hills Mall in Crestview Hills, KY now Crestview Towne Center). Others are business parks, a car dealership (Penn-Can), empty lots, dying, or still looming like the crazy uncle no one wants to see, but can't help it anyway.
When malls were first built in the 1960's and 1970's, it fit a niche at that time. It was a way for suburban people to go shopping without having to go "downtown". But, just like a majority of things in life, people's tastes, people's income, and the technology available for people change. In this case, it has led to dying and dead malls.
Biggest, though, IMHO, is that today's younger crowd is not into hanging out at the mall like they were a couple of generations ago. Many malls have been actively discouraging that kind of activity in more recent years, too. It's not the 1980s any more.
Oh well....
Mike
Quote from: tchafe1978 on August 31, 2019, 09:23:59 PM
Kennedy Mall in Dubuque, IA. It's probably at only 50% capacity. There is nothing left in the food court. Two of the original 3 anchors, Sears, and Younkers, are closed, and JC Penney is on life support. The former Sears is still empty, and the former Younkers has been turned into a Vertical Jump trampoline bouncy house arcade type place. Half the people in the mall at ay one time seem to just be mall walkers, and you better not get in their way! Gets more depressing each time we're in there and we see another store has closed.
Yeah it's so different compared to 10 years ago. Not looking good
Quote from: tchafe1978 on August 31, 2019, 09:23:59 PM
Kennedy Mall in Dubuque, IA. It's probably at only 50% capacity. There is nothing left in the food court. Two of the original 3 anchors, Sears, and Younkers, are closed, and JC Penney is on life support. The former Sears is still empty, and the former Younkers has been turned into a Vertical Jump trampoline bouncy house arcade type place. Half the people in the mall at ay one time seem to just be mall walkers, and you better not get in their way! Gets more depressing each time we're in there and we see another store has closed.
Sounds simular to Courtland Center in Burton, MI. Just a JCP for an anchor. I guess if you count Dunham's Sporting Goods as an anchor then they have two. I would say that the inside of the mall is about 75% vacant and the only people there seem to be mall walkers.
Quote from: tchafe1978 on August 31, 2019, 09:23:59 PM
Kennedy Mall in Dubuque, IA. It's probably at only 50% capacity. There is nothing left in the food court. Two of the original 3 anchors, Sears, and Younkers, are closed, and JC Penney is on life support. The former Sears is still empty, and the former Younkers has been turned into a Vertical Jump trampoline bouncy house arcade type place. Half the people in the mall at ay one time seem to just be mall walkers, and you better not get in their way! Gets more depressing each time we're in there and we see another store has closed.
I was just there last June I didn't think it was so bad. Sure there are some vacant stores but I would not call it half empty.
Northfield Square, Bradley, IL.
30% occupancy, nothing in the food court, two of the 4 anchors are gone, leaving Penney's as the only anchor.(Carson's was weird. When the mall opened, it had JC Penney, Carson's, Sears and Venture as anchors. When Venture closed, Carson's took over that space and had TWO anchors at the location.)
The only thing left open is the Cinemark theaters. I saw Dante's Peak there for free the day the theaters opened.
I don't know if something similar to what has happened at other dead Jacksonville malls will save it, so I will recommend the Regency Square Mall in the Regency area. Although not technically a mall, the festival marketplace downtown aka the Jacksonville Landing is going to be demolished as long as plans are followed upon, which they probably will be AFAIK.
Quote from: amroad17 on August 31, 2019, 10:41:04 PM
Eventually, all but maybe 10-15% of the malls we have now will be demolished. Many consumers like the "town center", open air concept. Plus, I believe leases aren't as high at a town center verses an enclosed mall, however, don't quote me. I would have to do some research to find this out.
One attraction of the town center or open air concept is that the tenants are not contributing to the heating/cooling costs of such. In contrast, tenants in a mall contribute to the heating/cooling costs of the enclosed spaces/foyers as well as their own leased spaces. The latter became a serious cost issue a decade ago when heating/cooling costs were at all-time highs.
Quote from: amroad17 on August 31, 2019, 10:41:04 PMAlso, with the proliferation of online shopping, both enclosed mall owners and town center owners will be facing more competition and will be dealing with less traffic in their stores. While quickly reading some articles on leases and concepts, I read one particular article on how malls are "evolving" by having different types of businesses in them instead of just shops. We will have to see.
IMHO, the whole
proliferation of on-line shopping contributing to the overall decline/downfall of brick-and-mortar facilities, regardless of whether such is a mall, shopping center or stand-alone facility, notion is widely overblown/exaggerated. Yes, on-line shopping is now a force to be reckoned with; however, such has not stopped nor prevented new shopping plazas/strip malls from being built. Additionally, just because one shops on-line doesn't mean one does such
100% of the time.
Quote from: amroad17 on August 31, 2019, 10:41:04 PMWhat could happen is that there could be one dominant "mall" in an area (see Syracuse, NY) that ends up closing 2-5 other malls in the area. The other malls are either going to just close (and sit there for Dead Mall fans to go through and document) then be demolished with either a town center or business park put up in its place. This has been happening regularly since the 1990's.
No offense but such activity, especially if it's been going on since the 1990s, has more to do with/say about the area than anything else.
Quote from: amroad17 on August 31, 2019, 10:41:04 PMThere are so many different variables that can end a mall's run: poor management, high leases, a change in demographics in the area, anchor stores going bankrupt (everybody's favorite whipping business--Montgomery Ward included here; the "death knell" of a mall), a change in shopping tastes, and online shopping.
Somewhat related to the demographics issue is that some malls, depending on location and/or accessibility, can become hangouts for gangs or gang activity. That alone IMHO can discourage others from shopping there.
Quote from: amroad17 on August 31, 2019, 10:41:04 PMWhen malls were first built in the 1960's and 1970's, it fit a niche at that time. It was a way for suburban people to go shopping without having to go "downtown". But, just like a majority of things in life, people's tastes, people's income, and the technology available for people change. In this case, it has led to dying and dead malls.
Personally, related heating/cooling costs, hang-out and/or gang activity, bad management/high leases and/or stores going out of business (even if such offers on-line shopping as an option) are more to blame for dead/dying malls more than anything else. As stated before, there are still plenty of malls that are thriving & actually growing; the one in King of Prussia, PA being an example.
Quote from: ftballfan on August 20, 2019, 06:35:04 PM
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on August 20, 2019, 12:28:12 AM
I'm surprised the BWW chose to open in the mall rather than down the street in MA. NH has a restaurant and hotel tax of 9%, while MA has the general sales tax rate of 6.25%. It explains why all the retail establishments around there are on the NH side of the border (no sales tax), while most of the restaurants are in MA.
NH might have less restrictive blue laws than MA
The meals tax rate in Tyngsboro MA is 7%. Mass towns can add their own 0.75% local option, and at this point almost all have. That difference is $1 on $50 of a bill. I've also seen a large share of Massachusetts restaurants on their side of the border die and at a rate at or higher than the NH side.
But hey, the BWW has a patio outside the restaurant inside the mall, which is bizarre and useless as it sounds.
The Greendale Mall in Worcester needs to come down. I worked very close to it for over a decade and saw it go to hell in that time. It has a couple anchors (but they're Best Buy and Homegoods), is superseded by the nearby Solomon Pond Mall, and has an over 70% vacancy rate. It's actually a nice structure, but it's never coming back from the dead.
Its Bath & Body Works and GNC are still alive. They are the 2 violin players still playing when a mall has hit the proverbial iceberg.
Quote from: PHLBOS on September 04, 2019, 11:51:14 AM
Quote from: amroad17 on August 31, 2019, 10:41:04 PM
Eventually, all but maybe 10-15% of the malls we have now will be demolished. Many consumers like the "town center", open air concept. Plus, I believe leases aren't as high at a town center verses an enclosed mall, however, don't quote me. I would have to do some research to find this out.
One attraction of the town center or open air concept is that the tenants are not contributing to the heating/cooling costs of such. In contrast, tenants in a mall contribute to the heating/cooling costs of the enclosed spaces/foyers as well as their own leased spaces. The latter became a serious cost issue a decade ago when heating/cooling costs were at all-time highs.
Quote from: amroad17 on August 31, 2019, 10:41:04 PMAlso, with the proliferation of online shopping, both enclosed mall owners and town center owners will be facing more competition and will be dealing with less traffic in their stores. While quickly reading some articles on leases and concepts, I read one particular article on how malls are "evolving" by having different types of businesses in them instead of just shops. We will have to see.
IMHO, the whole proliferation of on-line shopping contributing to the overall decline/downfall of brick-and-mortar facilities, regardless of whether such is a mall, shopping center or stand-alone facility, notion is widely overblown/exaggerated. Yes, on-line shopping is now a force to be reckoned with; however, such has not stopped nor prevented new shopping plazas/strip malls from being built. Additionally, just because one shops on-line doesn't mean one does such 100% of the time.
Quote from: amroad17 on August 31, 2019, 10:41:04 PMWhat could happen is that there could be one dominant "mall" in an area (see Syracuse, NY) that ends up closing 2-5 other malls in the area. The other malls are either going to just close (and sit there for Dead Mall fans to go through and document) then be demolished with either a town center or business park put up in its place. This has been happening regularly since the 1990's.
No offense but such activity, especially if it's been going on since the 1990s, has more to do with/say about the area than anything else.
Quote from: amroad17 on August 31, 2019, 10:41:04 PMThere are so many different variables that can end a mall's run: poor management, high leases, a change in demographics in the area, anchor stores going bankrupt (everybody's favorite whipping business--Montgomery Ward included here; the "death knell" of a mall), a change in shopping tastes, and online shopping.
Somewhat related to the demographics issue is that some malls, depending on location and/or accessibility, can become hangouts for gangs or gang activity. That alone IMHO can discourage others from shopping there.
Quote from: amroad17 on August 31, 2019, 10:41:04 PMWhen malls were first built in the 1960's and 1970's, it fit a niche at that time. It was a way for suburban people to go shopping without having to go "downtown". But, just like a majority of things in life, people's tastes, people's income, and the technology available for people change. In this case, it has led to dying and dead malls.
Personally, related heating/cooling costs, hang-out and/or gang activity, bad management/high leases and/or stores going out of business (even if such offers on-line shopping as an option) are more to blame for dead/dying malls more than anything else. As stated before, there are still plenty of malls that are thriving & actually growing; the one in King of Prussia, PA being an example.
There is a lot of truth about what was said about the younger people of today not "hanging out at the mall". Even when my kids, now around 30, were in their teens and early 20's rarely said they were going to the mall.
The demographics I mentioned above were a silent allusion to gang and/or criminal activity in addition to population shifts. Forest Fair Mall/Cincinnati Mills/or whatever it is called now had issues such as this.
I am aware of people not shopping online 100% of the time, however, if there wasn't any online shopping available, more people would be out shopping and the possibility would exist that some of the malls that are currently dying could still be doing well. Of course, there was a precursor to online shopping--it was called catalogs.
As far as "say" in an area, politics more than likely has something to do with that.
Quote from: amroad17 on September 04, 2019, 09:36:01 PMOf course, there was a precursor to online shopping--it was called catalogs.
Bingo! Somebody finally stated such. In the days before on-line shopping, Amazon, etc.; many ordered via catalogs... especially for those that resided too far from the nearest store. A similar reason could be why some order on-line; there isn't a store nearby.
For many years if not decades, Sears was one of if not the biggest retailer in catalog sales. One would've thought they would've championed on-line retailing; but shockingly, Sears largely either dismissed such or didn't react soon enough early on... ultimately at their own peril IMHO.
Long story short; the catalog sales took the biggest hit in terms of the proliferation of on-line sales.
Gwinnett Place Mall near Duluth, GA needs to be demolished. It was the premiere shopping destination in Gwinnett County for nearly two decades, but it has fallen on very hard times since then, with few stores left open. The location is great and the land is valuable. The entire mall site needs to be reimagined and repurposed.
This (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0697004,-79.5097747,621m/data=!3m1!1e3) is the future of shopping malls.
In Lakeland, Florida the Lakeland Village is an outdoor set up, with roads that features parallel parking in front of stores with parking lots outside the plaza that resembles an old style downtown area with street and rear parking lots.
BTW nearby Lakeland Square Mall has died with only few stores and loss of three anchor tenants.
Quote from: tolbs17 on October 28, 2021, 09:51:59 AM
This (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0697004,-79.5097747,621m/data=!3m1!1e3) is the future of shopping malls.
What is? I-40 or I-85?
Quote from: renegade on November 03, 2021, 05:59:18 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on October 28, 2021, 09:51:59 AM
This (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0697004,-79.5097747,621m/data=!3m1!1e3) is the future of shopping malls.
What is? I-40 or I-85?
both.
Sears screwed themselves when the internet came along. They should have updated with the demands of the general public and redid their catalog into on line shopping. They snoozed and lost.
Then letting Kmart buy them out was a nail in their coffin. A company that filed for bankruptcy just prior to the sale. Sears should have been able to buy Kmart out if they kept it steady. Kmart might still been alive today instead of Kmart killing them.
The Freehold Raceway Mall in Freehold, NJ should be plowed as it never should have been built in the first place. A lady from Freehold at the time of its built, even agreed with me that that region needed that particular mall as we all need a sharp pain in our side. At the time it was constructed in the late eighties the area had more than enough area shopping in nearby Manalapan and along Route 9 from Lakewood to Old Bridge.
Plus it ruined Route 537 as its now suburban from Route 9 to the Freehold Hospital (or whatever name it goes by now) with other retail development following suit along the once rural two lane road.
Quote from: PHLBOS on September 05, 2019, 11:40:35 AM
For many years if not decades, Sears was one of if not the biggest retailer in catalog sales. One would've thought they would've championed on-line retailing; but shockingly, Sears largely either dismissed such or didn't react soon enough early on... ultimately at their own peril IMHO.
It's much more complicated than that. Sears did see the internet coming, as they invested in the primitive web service Prodigy, but they were too focused on the short term and it seems they couldn't find a coherent strategy after Walmart overtook them as the biggest retailer in 1990. Then they closed the catalog in 1993 which was a short sighted move, only to begin building sears.com in 1997. They never invested enough $$ into sears.com
The biggest blunder of Sears, IMO, was neglecting its retail business in the 70s and 80s at a time when a massive shift was occurring away from the traditional department store towards the discount store (first the likes of Kmart and then later Walmart). Sears failed to embrace computer technology to update their cost/accounting control systems and make their supply chain more efficient. As such, they consistently trailed competitors on cost efficiency from that point on. It all went downhill from there.......
^^^ EXACTLY!!!
Some of the Walmarts and Targets in my region have either remodeled their store interiors and/or exteriors multiple times over the last 20 years, while many of the Sears and Kmart stores had the same old tired facades and interiors ‐‐ some dating back to the 70s or even earlier!!!
Quote from: amroad17 on September 04, 2019, 09:36:01 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on September 04, 2019, 11:51:14 AM
Quote from: amroad17 on August 31, 2019, 10:41:04 PM
Eventually, all but maybe 10-15% of the malls we have now will be demolished. Many consumers like the "town center", open air concept. Plus, I believe leases aren't as high at a town center verses an enclosed mall, however, don't quote me. I would have to do some research to find this out.
One attraction of the town center or open air concept is that the tenants are not contributing to the heating/cooling costs of such. In contrast, tenants in a mall contribute to the heating/cooling costs of the enclosed spaces/foyers as well as their own leased spaces. The latter became a serious cost issue a decade ago when heating/cooling costs were at all-time highs.
Quote from: amroad17 on August 31, 2019, 10:41:04 PMAlso, with the proliferation of online shopping, both enclosed mall owners and town center owners will be facing more competition and will be dealing with less traffic in their stores. While quickly reading some articles on leases and concepts, I read one particular article on how malls are "evolving" by having different types of businesses in them instead of just shops. We will have to see.
IMHO, the whole proliferation of on-line shopping contributing to the overall decline/downfall of brick-and-mortar facilities, regardless of whether such is a mall, shopping center or stand-alone facility, notion is widely overblown/exaggerated. Yes, on-line shopping is now a force to be reckoned with; however, such has not stopped nor prevented new shopping plazas/strip malls from being built. Additionally, just because one shops on-line doesn't mean one does such 100% of the time.
Quote from: amroad17 on August 31, 2019, 10:41:04 PMWhat could happen is that there could be one dominant "mall" in an area (see Syracuse, NY) that ends up closing 2-5 other malls in the area. The other malls are either going to just close (and sit there for Dead Mall fans to go through and document) then be demolished with either a town center or business park put up in its place. This has been happening regularly since the 1990's.
No offense but such activity, especially if it's been going on since the 1990s, has more to do with/say about the area than anything else.
Quote from: amroad17 on August 31, 2019, 10:41:04 PMThere are so many different variables that can end a mall's run: poor management, high leases, a change in demographics in the area, anchor stores going bankrupt (everybody's favorite whipping business--Montgomery Ward included here; the "death knell" of a mall), a change in shopping tastes, and online shopping.
Somewhat related to the demographics issue is that some malls, depending on location and/or accessibility, can become hangouts for gangs or gang activity. That alone IMHO can discourage others from shopping there.
Quote from: amroad17 on August 31, 2019, 10:41:04 PMWhen malls were first built in the 1960's and 1970's, it fit a niche at that time. It was a way for suburban people to go shopping without having to go "downtown". But, just like a majority of things in life, people's tastes, people's income, and the technology available for people change. In this case, it has led to dying and dead malls.
Personally, related heating/cooling costs, hang-out and/or gang activity, bad management/high leases and/or stores going out of business (even if such offers on-line shopping as an option) are more to blame for dead/dying malls more than anything else. As stated before, there are still plenty of malls that are thriving & actually growing; the one in King of Prussia, PA being an example.
There is a lot of truth about what was said about the younger people of today not "hanging out at the mall". Even when my kids, now around 30, were in their teens and early 20's rarely said they were going to the mall.
The demographics I mentioned above were a silent allusion to gang and/or criminal activity in addition to population shifts. Forest Fair Mall/Cincinnati Mills/or whatever it is called now had issues such as this.
I am aware of people not shopping online 100% of the time, however, if there wasn't any online shopping available, more people would be out shopping and the possibility would exist that some of the malls that are currently dying could still be doing well. Of course, there was a precursor to online shopping--it was called catalogs.
As far as "say" in an area, politics more than likely has something to do with that.
The last demographics to see a packed mall from its heyday in the USA would have to be from the ages of 35-45 (as of 2021). However in my area starting in the late 1990's to the start of 2020 there was a move to reverse the trend from building malls in suburban areas to gentrifying downtowns into destination centers. San Francisco was one of them back in the late 1990's when Oracle Park was under construction to revitalize an industrial wasteland.
Sacramento in 2014-2017 when they demolished the Downtown Plaza (Downtown Sacramento Mall) for the Golden 1 Arena and some downtown offices in the area.
I dunno if I'm just within the margin of error on your estimate, or if malls hung on here unusually late, but I did the whole teenager-go-to-the-mall-with-friends thing in high school, and I graduated in 2007. Now granted, we didn't do the whole 1980s thing where we spent multiple hours there dicking around, but I went on more than a few shopping trips with a girl I liked.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 05, 2021, 11:04:40 PM
I dunno if I'm just within the margin of error on your estimate, or if malls hung on here unusually late, but I did the whole teenager-go-to-the-mall-with-friends thing in high school, and I graduated in 2007. Now granted, we didn't do the whole 1980s thing where we spent multiple hours there dicking around, but I went on more than a few shopping trips with a girl I liked.
On the other hand, having grown up in the Golden Age of the Shopping Mall, my friends and I were never the types to "hang out in a mall", unless somebody actually needed to buy something in one of the stores. Maybe during Christmas time, but I don't remember too many idle moments where we'd just wait around for stuff to happen in one of the Simon Palaces.
I understand a lot of this has to do with how many of your friends actually worked in a mall, and I've realized that activity varied on the height of that percentage...most of us worked in other areas of retail, even though our town had at least one bustling indoor shopping mall (and another on the way out...ironically becoming space for a charter school and county library).
Quote from: formulanone on November 06, 2021, 11:58:12 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 05, 2021, 11:04:40 PM
I dunno if I'm just within the margin of error on your estimate, or if malls hung on here unusually late, but I did the whole teenager-go-to-the-mall-with-friends thing in high school, and I graduated in 2007. Now granted, we didn't do the whole 1980s thing where we spent multiple hours there dicking around, but I went on more than a few shopping trips with a girl I liked.
On the other hand, having grown up in the Golden Age of the Shopping Mall, my friends and I were never the types to "hang out in a mall", unless somebody actually needed to buy something in one of the stores. Maybe during Christmas time, but I don't remember too many idle moments where we'd just wait around for stuff to happen in one of the Simon Palaces.
I understand a lot of this has to do with how many of your friends actually worked in a mall, and I've realized that activity varied on the height of that percentage...most of us worked in other areas of retail, even though our town had at least one bustling indoor shopping mall (and another on the way out...ironically becoming space for a charter school and county library).
Anybody heard of East Pointe Mall? Next to the Kory Convention Center and is bustling.
I saw people with crop tops on and they were next to guys my age. No masks, -6ft apart. :banghead:
Harford Mall in Bel Air, Maryland should have been torn down a long time ago. If you live in Harford County, your best bets are White Marsh, Towson or Hunt Valley.
Looks like redevelopment of the mall could be soon on the rails. A 30 story tower was considered to be built on the former Sears building. But I feel like this would be a bigger game changer. I think they should fix those flooding risks if the wish to redevelop the mall. And yes it's paywalled
https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2022/02/14/raleighs-crabtree-valley-mall-goes-up-for-sale.html
Cary Towne Center is gone for the win.
https://www.wral.com/firsthand-look-at-cary-towne-center-mall-s-demolition/20182978/
Since the Cary Towne Center is demolished, should we rename Cary Towne Blvd to like Cary Parkway or something that is not related to the mall?