Running School Busses

[roadman65]

The other day when I was the last car past a school bus with his lights flashing I witnessed the three cars behind me all continue past the stopped bus with its lights flashing red, which is not only illegal but makes three idiot drivers out there marked as tweedle dee, tweedle dumb, and tweedle dumber.

I've also been behind drivers who have ignored stopped busses, but I will stop and I myself like to be at least four car lengths behind the bus if I'm first stopped.

Has anyone else noticed that people are treating stopped school busses like traffic signals and running them after the flashers go from yellow to red?

[Rothman]

It's always been a problem.  That said, social media seems to be playing a part in at list stigmatizing those that do ignore school buses.

[MATraveler128]

I've seen it happen before. It doesn't happen a lot in my area, but I've seen it back during my time riding school buses.

[roadman65]

Well I do notice also a pattern similar to my OP at stoplights. I will approach a signal that's turning yellow and I'm far enough away from the signal where I should brake to stop but I don't. I continue across the intersection with the light becoming red as I'm with in it, yet several drivers following me copy my behavior and ignore the red light with every one of them having to be crossing the stop bar when the light is completely red.

I know that the school bus stops have those same drivers and the same MO must prevail. Although I have never tested a a red light myself on a school bus like I do traffic lights.

[kphoger]

Honestly, requiring all vehicles to stop for school buses is dumb.  The USA and Canada, as far as I know, are literally the only two countries in the world to require it.

How do children in other countries manage to survive their trip to and from school?   

I'd rather they amend the law to simply require drivers to slow down to, say, 20 mph.

[Max Rockatansky]

Honestly, requiring all vehicles to stop for school buses is dumb.  The USA and Canada, as far as I know, are literally the only two countries in the world to require it.

How do children in other countries manage to survive their trip to and from school?   

I'd rather they amend the law to simply require drivers to slow down to, say, 20 mph.

This would be my preference as well, especially if the bus is stopping on a road with multiple lanes in the same travel direction. 

[Rothman]

Meh.  Kids do dumb things, like cross in front of the bus and opposing lanes.  Keep traffic stopped.

[vdeane]

^ Which brings up the question... are European kids less prone to doing dumb things?  And if so, why?  What are they doing right that we aren't?

[roadman65]

My pet peeve is the law requires small vans operating as school buses to stop at railroad grade crossings despite the odds of them being in a collision with a train is very slim.

The fact that that a school bus stops at a railroad crossing is because it's a long vehicle that has a chance it's rear part can get clipped from a train due to its slow acceleration from traveling slowly across the tracks.  I think when the law was made, smaller school buses weren't that prominent in use as they are today. Small school buses are vans just as much as private use vans which don't have to stop under law, and should be exempt from full stops.

[kphoger]

Meh.  Kids do dumb things, like cross in front of the bus and opposing lanes.  Keep traffic stopped.

Meh.  Kids do dumb things, like cross the street without looking when playing in the front yard, chasing a cat, going for a walk, pretty much anytime they're near a street.  No need to keep traffic stopped.

Which brings up the question... are European kids less prone to doing dumb things?  And if so, why?  What are they doing right that we aren't?

I assume children are taught better how to cross the street, and drivers are trained better to yield to pedestrians.  In this country, on the other hand, we prefer to craft traffic laws based on the premise that nobody should ever have to make a judgment call or use common sense.

[Rothman]

Meh.  Kids do dumb things, like cross in front of the bus and opposing lanes.  Keep traffic stopped.

Meh.  Kids do dumb things, like cross the street without looking when playing in the front yard, chasing a cat, going for a walk, pretty much anytime they're near a street.  No need to keep traffic stopped.

When the school bus driver can control for this situation rather than random kid spazzes, sure we should.

Then again, I don't like people who keep their kids from trick-or-treating because they're afraid that they'll get hit by a car.

[RobbieL2415]

Honestly, requiring all vehicles to stop for school buses is dumb.  The USA and Canada, as far as I know, are literally the only two countries in the world to require it.

How do children in other countries manage to survive their trip to and from school?   

I'd rather they amend the law to simply require drivers to slow down to, say, 20 mph.

Or, in every state, require bus drivers to pull over and wave ahead traffic behind them that builds up after making multiple stops on a main road.

I don't trust children enough to be aware of traffic on the road.

The bigger issue I've found is busses being limited (in CT) to 50mph on highways. This makes them sitting ducks on multi-lane portions of highways. They should be able to go at least 60mph.

[kalvado]

Meh.  Kids do dumb things, like cross in front of the bus and opposing lanes.  Keep traffic stopped.

Meh.  Kids do dumb things, like cross the street without looking when playing in the front yard, chasing a cat, going for a walk, pretty much anytime they're near a street.  No need to keep traffic stopped.

When the school bus driver can control for this situation rather than random kid spazzes, sure we should.

Then again, I don't like people who keep their kids from trick-or-treating because they're afraid that they'll get hit by a car.

I believe most school districts in NY build bus routes so that kids don't have to do something as dangerous as crossing the road.
Statistically, I believe, most school bus related accidents are kids getting hit by a bus itself, often on the school property.

[RobbieL2415]

Meh.  Kids do dumb things, like cross in front of the bus and opposing lanes.  Keep traffic stopped.

Meh.  Kids do dumb things, like cross the street without looking when playing in the front yard, chasing a cat, going for a walk, pretty much anytime they're near a street.  No need to keep traffic stopped.

When the school bus driver can control for this situation rather than random kid spazzes, sure we should.

Then again, I don't like people who keep their kids from trick-or-treating because they're afraid that they'll get hit by a car.

I believe most school districts in NY build bus routes so that kids don't have to do something as dangerous as crossing the road.
Statistically, I believe, most school bus related accidents are kids getting hit by a bus itself, often on the school property.

Despite NY being the only state in the US that requires traffic on the opposite side of a divided highway to stop for school busses.

[webny99]

Despite NY being the only state in the US that requires traffic on the opposite side of a divided highway to stop for school busses.

Which is bizarre, because how many bus stops are there on divided highways?

[ElishaGOtis]

Florida just enacted a law that would allow school buses to have cameras that ticket motorists who pass when the stop signs are extended. Interestingly enough, the buses with photo enforcement mechanisms must be labeled with "Camera Enforced" instead of "Photo Enforced." Minimum fine $200 for ticket. I'm not sure which districts have decided to implement this yet.

SB 766 - effective July 1, 2023: https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2023/766/BillText/er/PDF

Despite NY being the only state in the US that requires traffic on the opposite side of a divided highway to stop for school busses.

Which is bizarre, because how many bus stops are there on divided highways?

Here's an example on Florida SR-85: https://www.google.com/maps/@30.7017463,-86.5710228,3a,19.2y,7.3h,91.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-RY5ZowE29K8VcDrrBBi9w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

[kalvado]

Florida just enacted a law that would allow school buses to have cameras that ticket motorists who pass when the stop signs are extended. Interestingly enough, the buses with photo enforcement mechanisms must be labeled with "Camera Enforced" instead of "Photo Enforced." Minimum fine $200 for ticket. I'm not sure which districts have decided to implement this yet.

SB 766 - effective July 1, 2023: https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2023/766/BillText/er/PDF

Despite NY being the only state in the US that requires traffic on the opposite side of a divided highway to stop for school busses.

Which is bizarre, because how many bus stops are there on divided highways?

Here's an example on Florida SR-85: https://www.google.com/maps/@30.7017463,-86.5710228,3a,19.2y,7.3h,91.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-RY5ZowE29K8VcDrrBBi9w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

Becoming pretty common around here. And appropriate signs must be posted on major roads entering the jurisdiction, hence some of these signs are on interstates. 

[vdeane]

Meh.  Kids do dumb things, like cross in front of the bus and opposing lanes.  Keep traffic stopped.

Meh.  Kids do dumb things, like cross the street without looking when playing in the front yard, chasing a cat, going for a walk, pretty much anytime they're near a street.  No need to keep traffic stopped.

When the school bus driver can control for this situation rather than random kid spazzes, sure we should.

Then again, I don't like people who keep their kids from trick-or-treating because they're afraid that they'll get hit by a car.

I believe most school districts in NY build bus routes so that kids don't have to do something as dangerous as crossing the road.
Statistically, I believe, most school bus related accidents are kids getting hit by a bus itself, often on the school property.

I've even seen it asserted on the internet that this is the law.  Unfortunately, Google is being useless right now, so I can't verify this.  Every result is instead about what drivers need to do for stopped school buses, and not for the placement of bus stops.

[roadman65]

What gets me in Orlando I will see a school bus stop twice within a tenth of a mile at two neighboring subdivisions along Kirkman Road. Instead the bus could stop between the two and both kids can walk each way to their homes.  Why screw up traffic and make stops too close to each other and spread them out and let the youth walk a few extra steps and get the needed exercise that they could use.

There should be a minimum distance between stops and if two stops are within a stones throw of each other than stop at one or the other or half way.

[kphoger]

I believe most school districts in NY build bus routes so that kids don't have to do something as dangerous as crossing the road.

Ridiculous.  The only year of school I took the bus was kindergarten, but I had to cross a street just to get to the bus stop.  (From first grade on, I rode my bike to school, which—shocker!—involved crossing several streets.)  How do these kids go to their friends' house to play in the summer?  Get a police escort?

Statistically, I believe, most school bus related accidents are kids getting hit by a bus itself, often on the school property.

One such accident that made the news in the Wichita area recently was a child who darted out between two parked cars and was hit by the school bus.

how many bus stops are there on divided highways?

Wouldn't something like this count as a divided highway in such context?

I've even seen it asserted on the internet that this is the law.  Unfortunately, Google is being useless right now, so I can't verify this.  Every result is instead about what drivers need to do for stopped school buses, and not for the placement of bus stops.

This document may shed some light.  I specifically note such parts as these:

"The district is not required to provide a protected corridor from students' homes to the bus stop ..."

"It is important to note that one school district will make all home pickups because of lack of sidewalks, and another district will expect students to travel one mile along similar roads to the bus stop. These are district decisions based on criteria established by the school board ..."

"Some districts have gone even further and established that no children will be re­quired to cross the road to get to the bus stop. A more common procedure is for a district to identify certain roads within a district as "no crossing" roads because of the speed and density of traffic."

What gets me in Orlando I will see a school bus stop twice within a tenth of a mile at two neighboring subdivisions along Kirkman Road. Instead the bus could stop between the two and both kids can walk each way to their homes.  Why screw up traffic and make stops too close to each other and spread them out and let the youth walk a few extra steps and get the needed exercise that they could use.

There should be a minimum distance between stops and if two stops are within a stones throw of each other than stop at one or the other or half way.

The same New York document I posted should shed some light on this issue as well.  For example:

"Education Law 3635 requires that students be provided transportation if they live more than two miles (K-8) or three miles (9-12) from school. Students can not be asked to go further than this to a school bus stop, unless the school board determines that the road where the student lives is too hazardous for school bus travel. Districts can choose to provide a higher level of service. There must be voter approval for any lesser distances and there will be no state reimbursement for distances under one and a half miles."

"Instead of or in addition to establishing a maximum distance a student may be required to travel to a bus stop, it is possible to estab­lish a minimum distance between stops. This assures proper distance for bus drivers to leave one stop, move into traffic, and correctly signal their intention to stop again. Common distances used for this strategy are one- or two-tenths of a mile."

"There is a danger that students walking alongside the bus would fall under the rear wheels. In order to avoid that possibility, stops should be established so students will only have to walk in front of the bus. For instance, if children from three houses got on at the same stop, the stop should be established at the first house so the other students would remain in front of the bus as they traveled home."

[6a]

My pet peeve is the law requires small vans operating as school buses to stop at railroad grade crossings despite the odds of them being in a collision with a train is very slim.

The fact that that a school bus stops at a railroad crossing is because it's a long vehicle that has a chance it's rear part can get clipped from a train due to its slow acceleration from traveling slowly across the tracks.  I think when the law was made, smaller school buses weren't that prominent in use as they are today. Small school buses are vans just as much as private use vans which don't have to stop under law, and should be exempt from full stops.

That's not the reason; length or just being a school bus has nothing to do with it. Federal regulations say any "bus" (defined as any vehicle designed to carry passengers) must stop 15-50 feet from the crossing, look both ways, and listen (usually by opening the door). I drive for a transit agency and have to do the same thing. The same regulations apply to vehicles carrying certain hazardous materials. You can thank a bus accident back in the 30s for that.

[ran4sh]

My pet peeve is the law requires small vans operating as school buses to stop at railroad grade crossings despite the odds of them being in a collision with a train is very slim.

The fact that that a school bus stops at a railroad crossing is because it's a long vehicle that has a chance it's rear part can get clipped from a train due to its slow acceleration from traveling slowly across the tracks.  I think when the law was made, smaller school buses weren't that prominent in use as they are today. Small school buses are vans just as much as private use vans which don't have to stop under law, and should be exempt from full stops.

This is incorrect. Passenger-carrying commercial vehicles are required to stop at railroad crossings, and they're defined as having capacity for more than 15 passengers. Which definitely includes some vehicles you are calling "vans".

So it seems like it's not because of length, but rather the fact that they don't want vehicles with that many people to be hit by a train.

[tmoore952]

Passing a stopped school bus in my neck of the woods nets you a $250 fine if caught by school bus camera (yes they exist here), or up to $570 "and" 3 points on your license if you are cited by an officer.

So, even if you disagree, don't do it my neck of the woods unless you can deal with all that. Or stay away, which some of you would do anyway. Which is fine.

[tmoore952]

Meh.  Kids do dumb things, like cross in front of the bus and opposing lanes.  Keep traffic stopped.

Meh.  Kids do dumb things, like cross the street without looking when playing in the front yard, chasing a cat, going for a walk, pretty much anytime they're near a street.  No need to keep traffic stopped.

Which brings up the question... are European kids less prone to doing dumb things?  And if so, why?  What are they doing right that we aren't?

I assume children are taught better how to cross the street, and drivers are trained better to yield to pedestrians.  In this country, on the other hand, we prefer to craft traffic laws based on the premise that nobody should ever have to make a judgment call or use common sense.

With all due respect, I see a huge lack of common sense among drivers in the US. And the drivers (who are supposedly the smart adults) will win any collision with human beings, in the school bus situation.

[kalvado]

Meh.  Kids do dumb things, like cross in front of the bus and opposing lanes.  Keep traffic stopped.

Meh.  Kids do dumb things, like cross the street without looking when playing in the front yard, chasing a cat, going for a walk, pretty much anytime they're near a street.  No need to keep traffic stopped.

Which brings up the question... are European kids less prone to doing dumb things?  And if so, why?  What are they doing right that we aren't?

I assume children are taught better how to cross the street, and drivers are trained better to yield to pedestrians.  In this country, on the other hand, we prefer to craft traffic laws based on the premise that nobody should ever have to make a judgment call or use common sense.

With all due respect, I see a huge lack of common sense among drivers in the US. And the drivers (who are supposedly the smart adults) will win any collision with human beings, in the school bus situation.

And one may say that creating an artificial situation when kids are kept so that they don't have to make judgement calls with school bus rules feeds into that lack of common sense.