Railroad crossings that SHOULD be grade separated

Started by tolbs17, March 16, 2021, 09:10:24 PM

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zachary_amaryllis

fort collins co is a hot mess when the train comes through. there's about 6 blocks where the tracks are down the middle of a street.

bridge them all over, i say, but thats not realistic. maybe a couple of them so at least the ambulance can get through somewhere when the train is plodding through town. i know of one on the east side of town thats getting an overpass, and bypassing a really terrible intersection as well (vine/lemay for those who know the area)

in the downtown area, the tracks cross the main drag (us 287 aka college ave), then turn and run parallel to it about a block away. when the train crosses college, all the lights in that area lock down into 'nobody's going anywhere' mode, and it will take 30 minutes for traffic to start moving reasonably well again.

unrelated but somewhat relevant... why do people sit there, for 10-15 minutes with the car idling in gear with their foot on the brake? omg shut the damn car off.
clinched:
I-64, I-80, I-76 (west), *64s in hampton roads, 225,270,180 (co, wy)


kphoger

Quote from: Rick Powell on March 19, 2021, 01:25:19 AM

Quote from: webny99 on March 17, 2021, 02:08:36 PM
Is the correct answer "all of them"?

If you go on a Google Earth/Streetview tour of the world, there are many countries that have prioritized grade separating or closing dang near every former "level crossing". There's probably too many in the US to ever consider such a thing, but the UK is eliminating about 100 a year and have about 6,000 to go.

I'm imagining a lot of rural dirt road level crossings that see maybe twelve vehicles per day.  I really don't think they need grade separation.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

SectorZ

There are four in my town that are on a never-gonna-happen wish list. It can cause an EMS response problems because part of the town gets cutoff, necessitating nearby Andover to respond to emergencies. Thankfully that has been a very rare issue, so really the crossings are just a nuisance delay more than anything. Fortunately, vehicle/pedestrian incursions with trains at these crossings haven't happened.

kphoger

All north- and westbound trains leaving Chicago's Union Station first see the light of day at a level crossing with Canal Street, quickly followed by a level crossing with Clinton Street–then six other minor-ish ones in quick succession after that before joining the fully-grade-separated UP-W line and remaining grade-separated for quite a distance past the Western Avenue split as well.

Grade-separating either the Canal Street or the Clinton Street crossing would be quite the challenge, but I think there would be quite some benefit.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

mgk920

Quote from: dvferyance on March 16, 2021, 11:22:15 PM
Moreland Blvd in Waukesha no doubt. When the train comes backups are insane.

My expectation is that CN will have to double track their former Wisconsin Central, nee SOO LINE mainline through Waukesha, WI over the next 10-20 years, too.

Quote from: Rothman on March 17, 2021, 02:07:12 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on March 16, 2021, 09:31:15 PM
Hammond Ave in Superior, WI. This is the road 535 dumps into coming from Duluth and between the railroad and the intersection spacing around it it creates some major headaches.
Meh.  I used to commute up and down Hanmond.  It was never a problem during "rush hour" -- which was nonexistent in the area.

I know it caused backups at other times of the day, but those times were definitely not critical.

My guess is that that will be a public demand consideration for when the I-535 Blatnik bridge is replaced, expected within the mid-term foreseeable future.

Mike

webny99

Quote from: kphoger on March 19, 2021, 11:32:27 AM
Quote from: Rick Powell on March 19, 2021, 01:25:19 AM
Quote from: webny99 on March 17, 2021, 02:08:36 PM
Is the correct answer "all of them"?

If you go on a Google Earth/Streetview tour of the world, there are many countries that have prioritized grade separating or closing dang near every former "level crossing". There's probably too many in the US to ever consider such a thing, but the UK is eliminating about 100 a year and have about 6,000 to go.

I'm imagining a lot of rural dirt road level crossings that see maybe twelve vehicles per day.  I really don't think they need grade separation.

The UK is so densely populated that they probably have a fraction of the amount the US has. I agree with your larger point, though - there are plenty in the US that don't need to be grade separated.

Bickendan

Quote from: SkyPesos on March 17, 2021, 02:16:19 PM
Found this interesting one, though not sure if it really needs to be grade separated: an LRT line through the middle of a DDI interchange
Wow. They built that DDI with an existing LRT line there. Was it MNDOT or Bloomington that built that?


One that should be separated: Spur line crossing WA 432, a freeway. https://goo.gl/maps/4mwUN6vBxJ55znqF9
One that would really impress me: UP crossing NW Naito Pkwy -- the rail line crosses the Willamette on the bottom deck of the Steel Bridge, and immediately swings right and over Naito as it approaches Union Station. https://goo.gl/maps/tsyLvDo2XfimECZV9

cpzilliacus

#32
Quote from: hbelkins on March 18, 2021, 08:06:47 PM
US 15 between VA 55 and US 29 in Haymarket, Va.

Yes, that is a bad one because traffic volumes on U.S. 15 are pretty high. 

Same NS railroad line west of there, where U.S. 17 crosses it at the bottom of a long descent (both ways, but especially southbound) at Delaplane, between U.S. 50 and I-66 has less traffic but potentially more danger.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

cpzilliacus

#33
Montgomery County, Maryland south of Rockville on county-maintained Randolph Road has a grade crossing that combines plenty of traffic on the CSX Metropolitan Subdivision with a busy suburban street.  There have been plans for many years to move the crossing north of there to the planned eastern extension of the Montrose Parkway (the right-of-way can be seen as a strip of heavily forested land, leading more than a few to think it is a park) but that keeps getting deferred various reasons, including lack of money, environmental objections and plain old NIMBYism.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

Bruce

Marysville, WA has three major interchanges with I-5 that are buffered to the east by a busy railroad that opens several times in the evening rush hour, causing backups onto the freeway. There are long-term proposals to elevate the railroad through the city, but it would be expensive and disruptive to BNSF, so they won't consider it seriously.

andrepoiy

Quote from: SkyPesos on March 16, 2021, 09:19:23 PM
The Eglington Crosstown LRT in Toronto haven't opened yet, but I've seen criticism on some Toronto transit forums that this crossing should've been grade separated, as the only at-grade crossing on the LRT for a long length.

Firstly, it's Eglinton.

Secondly, not only is this at-grade, so is the rest of the eastern portion of the line.


froggie

Quote from: Bickendan on March 19, 2021, 09:45:40 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 17, 2021, 02:16:19 PM
Found this interesting one, though not sure if it really needs to be grade separated: an LRT line through the middle of a DDI interchange
Wow. They built that DDI with an existing LRT line there. Was it MNDOT or Bloomington that built that?

MnDOT built it, but both contributed funding as well as the Airport Commission (since it's the main access to the Humphrey Terminal) and the state economic development agency.

SkyPesos

Quote from: andrepoiy on March 21, 2021, 06:31:19 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 16, 2021, 09:19:23 PM
The Eglington Crosstown LRT in Toronto haven't opened yet, but I've seen criticism on some Toronto transit forums that this crossing should've been grade separated, as the only at-grade crossing on the LRT for a long length.

Firstly, it's Eglinton.

Secondly, not only is this at-grade, so is the rest of the eastern portion of the line.

[image snipped]
It's goes back underground east of that section for the Science Centre station, but I found an explanation for this single at-grade crossing on the Sunnybrook Park Station (located at this intersection) Wikipedia article.

Quote
In 2012, Metrolinx discovered that there would be minimal cost differential between tunnelling under the West Don River at Leslie Street versus laying the track on the surface. Also, tunnelling here would have provided "significant improvements to construction staging, schedule and traffic impacts", according to Jamie Robinson at Metrolinx.[5][6] Thus, in December 2012, Metrolinx proposed continuing the LRT tunnel from Laird station to Science Centre station and eliminating the planned surface stop at Sunnybrook Park (Leslie Street). It did not want to build an underground station at that location as it would cost $80 to $100 million (as compared to about $3 million for a surface stop). Metrolinx considered the cost of an underground station to be unjustified given its low projected ridership (650 passengers at the busiest hour). Local residents objected to the elimination of their stop,[7] and by mid-2013, Metrolinx had relented and the surface stop was restored.[5][8]

Members of the public asked Metrolinx why it was proposing a centre-of-road alignment instead of running the tracks on the south side of Eglinton Avenue through the valley at Leslie Street. The latter would have avoided going through the signaled intersection at Leslie Street. Jamie Robinson at Metrolinx explained that the latter "was more expensive and required an EA amendment. Due to project implementation timelines the project is proceeding with the EA option". He also stated, "It is very difficult (if not impossible) to relocate the portal from the centre of Eglinton (as proposed in the current design) and shift it to the south side of the right-of-way and continue to use the existing bridge." As for building a viaduct across the valley as suggested by some members of the public, Robinson said a viaduct "was more expensive and required an EA amendment".
From what it looks like, if there wasn't a station at Leslie St, the tracks would be completely underground until east of Science Centre.

Concrete Bob

In Sacramento, some sort of grade separations should be set up on P and Q Streets and J and L Streets at the Union Pacific Railroad tracks.  Those east and west bound one way arterial carry a lot of traffic, and when the gates close, those streets clog with traffic.  The trains are long, and five to ten minute delays aren't uncommon.  Those areas are highly gentrified and densely developed, so grade separations are a non-starter. 

In Canada, there are railroad grade crossings on Regina SK's Ring Road and on Quebec Autoroute 20 east of Montreal.  Those grade crossings could be easily addressed.  A grade level crossing on a freeway is like a screen door on a submarine.  I am certain those grade level crossings were built as an interim measure.  Unfortunately, sometimes interim measures last for decades.   

hbelkins

Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 21, 2021, 10:32:17 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on March 18, 2021, 08:06:47 PM
US 15 between VA 55 and US 29 in Haymarket, Va.

Yes, that is a bad one because traffic volumes on U.S. 15 are pretty high. 

Same NS railroad line west of there, where U.S. 17 crosses it at the bottom of a long descent (both ways, but especially southbound) at Delaplane, between U.S. 50 and I-66 has less traffic but potentially more danger.

Is that crossing the reason trucks are banned from that section of US 17? I drove it once and didn't find the road to be bad at all. It's better than a lot of roads with no truck restrictions.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

Dirt Roads

Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 21, 2021, 10:32:17 AM
Same NS railroad line west of there, where U.S. 17 crosses it at the bottom of a long descent (both ways, but especially southbound) at Delaplane, between U.S. 50 and I-66 has less traffic but potentially more danger.

Quote from: hbelkins on March 23, 2021, 01:53:12 PM
Is that crossing the reason trucks are banned from that section of US 17? I drove it once and didn't find the road to be bad at all. It's better than a lot of roads with no truck restrictions.

I think that the main reason is that northbound trucks on US-17 have to turn left across downhill traffic on US-50 eastbound.  But there's also the nasty corollary: its a long drop from the top of Ashby's Gap (top of the Blue Ridge on US-50/US-17) down to Goose Creek at Delaplane.  You know, I think this one also belongs in the Appalachian Trail Crossings thread.

The short cutoff between Delaplane and Winchester was a huge temptation to truckers back in the days of 55MPH speeds on I-66 and I-81.  Also, there wasn't much room for extra trucks along Millwood Pike westbound (US-50/US-17) in the commercial area just before the Apple Blossom exit of I-81. 

froggie

Trucks are banned from that stretch of 17 because the Fauquier County locals managed to convince VDOT, state officials, and then-U.S. Rep Wolf (who represented the area in Congress) that too many trucks were speeding along 17.  There was also strong evidence that trucks were using 17 and 50 to avoid the weigh station on 81 between 66 and Winchester.  Here's three articles (one from 1994, the other two from 2000) with some background.  The actual truck ban came later.

https://www.fauquiernow.com/fauquier_news/article/throwback-thursday-route-17-truck-ban-urged

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2000/09/17/va-tackling-truck-traffic-on-route-17/5606b5d9-d9e2-4a30-b496-ea96bc186587/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2000/10/22/rte-17-truck-traffic-sign-of-the-times/8d65c3d0-1289-4764-a60a-27573d2144a2/

Mapmikey

They started out by banning oversized trucks in Sept 2000 - see pdf pg 39 at http://www.ctb.virginia.gov/meetings/minutes_pdf/CTB-09-2000-01.pdf which has some truck usage data prior to this.

Dirt Roads


Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 21, 2021, 10:32:17 AM
Same NS railroad line west of there, where U.S. 17 crosses it at the bottom of a long descent (both ways, but especially southbound) at Delaplane, between U.S. 50 and I-66 has less traffic but potentially more danger.

Quote from: hbelkins on March 23, 2021, 01:53:12 PM
Is that crossing the reason trucks are banned from that section of US 17? I drove it once and didn't find the road to be bad at all. It's better than a lot of roads with no truck restrictions.

Quote from: Dirt Roads on March 23, 2021, 04:25:42 PMI think that the main reason is that northbound trucks on US-17 have to turn left across downhill traffic on US-50 eastbound.  But there's also the nasty corollary: its a long drop from the top of Ashby's Gap (top of the Blue Ridge on US-50/US-17) down to Goose Creek at Delaplane. 

Quote from: froggie on March 23, 2021, 04:43:19 PM
Trucks are banned from that stretch of 17 because the Fauquier County locals managed to convince VDOT, state officials, and then-U.S. Rep Wolf (who represented the area in Congress) that too many trucks were speeding along 17.  There was also strong evidence that trucks were using 17 and 50 to avoid the weigh station on 81 between 66 and Winchester.  Here's three articles (one from 1994, the other two from 2000) with some background.  The actual truck ban came later.

Quote from: Mapmikey on March 23, 2021, 08:53:34 PM
They started out by banning oversized trucks in Sept 2000 - see pdf pg 39 at http://www.ctb.virginia.gov/meetings/minutes_pdf/CTB-09-2000-01.pdf which has some truck usage data prior to this.

Great info.  I wasn't aware that there was also a ban on trucks on US-50/US-17 between US-340 and US-17 South. 

I lived in Clarke County from 1996 to 2000 and was aware of the issues in Fauquier.  But the main issue was that left turn trucks trying to cross US-50 downhill traffic would back up traffic on US-17 northbound during the strangest times.  I quit using US-17 as a route northward into Clarke County long before I moved there, preferring to use Halfway Road (The Plains Road) from The Plains to Middleburg, and then St. Louis Road up to Snickersville Turnpike.  I switched back to using US-17 occasionally after the truck ban was enacted. 

froggie

Regarding the title of this thread, FHWA has guidance on railroad-roadway crossings that includes general criteria for when grade separation should occur.  Here's a simplified listing of those criteria:


  • When the roadway is a limited-access facility
  • Posted speed limit is 55mph or higher
  • Maximum authorized train speed is 80mph or higher.  A caveat to this one:  FHWA and FRA will accept heavily upgraded at-grade crossings for trains between 80 and 125mph.  Any rail segment over 125mph automatically requires full grade separation.
  • Average daily freight train volume of 30 or greater
  • In urban areas, average daily passenger train volume of 75 or greater
  • A Train Crossing Exposure value (basically daily # of trains times AADT) of 900K in urban areas or 600K in rural areas.  Values are higher for passenger/transit trains.
  • The expected crash frequency for an at-grade crossing with signals and gates, as calculated by a USDOT formula, exceeds one crash every other year (0.5 per year).  For roadways on the NHS, it exceeds one crash every 5 years (0.2 per year).

tolbs17

Quote from: froggie on April 14, 2021, 11:48:44 PM
Regarding the title of this thread, FHWA has guidance on railroad-roadway crossings that includes general criteria for when grade separation should occur.  Here's a simplified listing of those criteria:


  • When the roadway is a limited-access facility
  • Posted speed limit is 55mph or higher
  • Maximum authorized train speed is 80mph or higher.  A caveat to this one:  FHWA and FRA will accept heavily upgraded at-grade crossings for trains between 80 and 125mph.  Any rail segment over 125mph automatically requires full grade separation.
  • Average daily freight train volume of 30 or greater
  • In urban areas, average daily passenger train volume of 75 or greater
  • A Train Crossing Exposure value (basically daily # of trains times AADT) of 900K in urban areas or 600K in rural areas.  Values are higher for passenger/transit trains.
  • The expected crash frequency for an at-grade crossing with signals and gates, as calculated by a USDOT formula, exceeds one crash every other year (0.5 per year).  For roadways on the NHS, it exceeds one crash every 5 years (0.2 per year).
So the one on Memorial Dr violates that

Dirt Roads

Quote from: froggie on April 14, 2021, 11:48:44 PM
Regarding the title of this thread, FHWA has guidance on railroad-roadway crossings that includes general criteria for when grade separation should occur.  Here's a simplified listing of those criteria:


  • When the roadway is a limited-access facility
  • Posted speed limit is 55mph or higher
  • Maximum authorized train speed is 80mph or higher.  A caveat to this one:  FHWA and FRA will accept heavily upgraded at-grade crossings for trains between 80 and 125mph.  Any rail segment over 125mph automatically requires full grade separation.
  • Average daily freight train volume of 30 or greater
  • In urban areas, average daily passenger train volume of 75 or greater
  • A Train Crossing Exposure value (basically daily # of trains times AADT) of 900K in urban areas or 600K in rural areas.  Values are higher for passenger/transit trains.
  • The expected crash frequency for an at-grade crossing with signals and gates, as calculated by a USDOT formula, exceeds one crash every other year (0.5 per year).  For roadways on the NHS, it exceeds one crash every 5 years (0.2 per year).

Quote from: tolbs17 on April 14, 2021, 11:54:29 PM
So the one on Memorial Dr violates that

Indeed, there isn't anything particular about the Carolina Coastal Railway (CLNA) crossing on Memorial Drive that would force NCDOT to consider grade separation.  However, I don't think you should consider the FHWA guidance on grade separations as a "rule" that should be applied to existing crossings.  It should be considered a "rule" used for new highway construction, such as the southwest leg of the Greenville Bypass.  Also, NCDOT Rail Division is more aggressive than this FHWA guidance in certain parts of the state, particularly on the North Carolina Rail Road corridor (where the state is the sole shareholder).  The Rail Division has a particular group that is focused on grade separations and other forms of crossing closures as a safety measure to benefit both trains and automobiles.

tolbs17


sparker

I'm up in Galt frequently, as a few of our products are assembled there.  The original SP (now UP) rail line extends right through the middle of town, with about a dozen grade crossings within the town limits.  One of the things I've noticed over the years is that diesel locomotives -- both freight and passenger -- have gotten much quieter over the last decade or so, so that low rumble previously heard from a mile away is drastically reduced in volume (and even vibration).  My contractor manager up there has commented on this repeatedly, as she has to cross the tracks several times per day; noting that there are locals biking and walking near the tracks (a number of them with headsets for their phones) -- essentially an accident waiting to happen, since that line is the main UP freight line to SoCal from their main "mixing bowl" yard in Roseville; some 30 freights plus four Amtrak runs daily.  About half the grade crossings are local non-arterial streets, and there's plenty of space between the tracks and the nearest business; it wouldn't be difficult to shut down some of the crossings, as the next one is only a couple blocks distant -- and with some of the arterials, there's ample room to place an overpass without significant property acquisition.  But apparently every time this issue is raised in city council meetings, there's blowback from older residents who don't want to see anything changed that would require them to alter their routines -- and UP has no intention of contributing unless forced to do so.  Public records indicate about a half-dozen incidents per year; fortunately no fatalities for several years, with the last being a senior citizen on a bicycle who just didn't hear the train coming.  There are also some more rural crossings both north and south of town outside city limits; some of those have poor lines of sight -- if a driver misses the round yellow approach sign, they're at the tracks (thankfully all are gated these days) before they know it.  The San Joaquin and Sacramento valleys have always been problematic regarding grade crossings (SP didn't phase out all the old "wig-wag" signals until the UP purchase); besides the main line there are numerous branches serving agricultural facilities, particularly in the area between Fresno and Visalia.  But the "solution" has been to deploy crossing gates at virtually every crossing; grade separations are generally limited to within the larger (50K and up) Valley cities or at freeway/expressway crossings.  An illustration of the problem is the fact that until service was ended and the actual tracks removed in the late '90's, the at-grade junction of CA 152/33 and CA 165 in Los Banos was diagonally bisected by the Fresno-Tracy secondary ex-SP line. 

In_Correct

#49
Quote from: webny99 on March 17, 2021, 02:08:36 PM
Is the correct answer "all of them"?

Yes.

Quote from: Rick Powell on March 19, 2021, 01:25:19 AM
Quote from: webny99 on March 17, 2021, 02:08:36 PM
Is the correct answer "all of them"?
If you go on a Google Earth/Streetview tour of the world, there are many countries that have prioritized grade separating or closing dang near every former "level crossing". There's probably too many in the US to ever consider such a thing, but the UK is eliminating about 100 a year and have about 6,000 to go.

And Also ...

Quote from: I-55 on March 19, 2021, 01:29:04 AM
Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on March 17, 2021, 09:06:05 PM
US 31 north of Argos and north of SR 28 in Tipton.

The crossing near Tipton is being replaced with an overpass.

Good.

Quote

Oak Island Rd in Revere could also probably use a grade separation - it's a tiny residential street, but the only connection across the tracks to an isolated neighborhood, and a few years ago a child riding a bike was struck by a train there. Would definitely require raising the railroad rather than the street though, so almost certainly cost-prohibitive.


Is possible to squeeze a road bridge by Extending Dashwood Street and Glendale Street in empty space north of the subdivisions. It would connect Woodland Road and Flint Street.

Quote

Those areas are highly gentrified ...


I shall not Cry, nor shed Crocodile Tears, for Gentrifiers.

Drive Safely. :sombrero: Ride Safely. And Build More Roads, Rails, And Bridges. :coffee: ... Boulevards Wear Faster Than Interstates.



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