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How did Boston get 495?

Started by kernals12, February 19, 2022, 10:54:23 AM

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Flint1979

Quote from: ran4sh on May 27, 2023, 06:50:30 PM
Quote from: brad2971 on May 27, 2023, 04:24:56 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on May 27, 2023, 04:12:31 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 26, 2023, 02:16:46 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on May 26, 2023, 12:04:37 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 06, 2022, 04:24:44 PM
There is no rule that odd-numbered first-digit three-digit Interstate Highways can't end at another Interstate at both ends.

Well obviously when a state runs out of even numbers for the first digit of loop/circumferential routes, they're allowed to use odd numbers for the first digit of additional such routes. That doesn't disprove the existence of such a rule.
That is not how it goes.

You stop that.

What's the alternative, don't build any more 3di when the numbers run out? Of course not.

So once again, you stop that.

As Texas and Florida, not to mention California and Arizona, have amply demonstrated, not every freeway or tollway has to have that red, white, and blue Interstate shield.

That's a non-answer

The question is, what are states allowed to do, or what *should* states do, if they run out of even-first-digit 3di numbers, but they build more 3dis. Interstate designation is valuable because interstate standards are higher than state route standards generally.

Some people think they shouldn't be allowed to use odd-first-digit 3di numbers.

That is incorrect, and I am right about that, and unless someone shows me a legitimate reference that I am incorrect about that, then I will treat it as me being right about that.
They make them into state highways. There is no rule that a highway has to be an Interstate in order to be Interstate standard, you can build a state highway to Interstate standards.

An odd 3di is a spur route, if you see an odd 3di you are going to assume that it only connects to the parent Interstate once, an even 3di is a bypass or beltway and you are going to assume that it starts and ends at the same route or another Interstate highway. Why should they be allowed to use an digit 3di when the highway is a bypass or beltway and not a spur route?

You are right about that? How do you figure that? You have a guideline of how highways are numbered and you want to start just using any number? How does that make sense?


sprjus4


ran4sh

Quote from: Flint1979 on May 28, 2023, 12:33:24 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on May 27, 2023, 06:50:30 PM
Quote from: brad2971 on May 27, 2023, 04:24:56 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on May 27, 2023, 04:12:31 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 26, 2023, 02:16:46 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on May 26, 2023, 12:04:37 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 06, 2022, 04:24:44 PM
There is no rule that odd-numbered first-digit three-digit Interstate Highways can't end at another Interstate at both ends.

Well obviously when a state runs out of even numbers for the first digit of loop/circumferential routes, they're allowed to use odd numbers for the first digit of additional such routes. That doesn't disprove the existence of such a rule.
That is not how it goes.

You stop that.

What's the alternative, don't build any more 3di when the numbers run out? Of course not.

So once again, you stop that.

As Texas and Florida, not to mention California and Arizona, have amply demonstrated, not every freeway or tollway has to have that red, white, and blue Interstate shield.

That's a non-answer

The question is, what are states allowed to do, or what *should* states do, if they run out of even-first-digit 3di numbers, but they build more 3dis. Interstate designation is valuable because interstate standards are higher than state route standards generally.

Some people think they shouldn't be allowed to use odd-first-digit 3di numbers.

That is incorrect, and I am right about that, and unless someone shows me a legitimate reference that I am incorrect about that, then I will treat it as me being right about that.
They make them into state highways. There is no rule that a highway has to be an Interstate in order to be Interstate standard, you can build a state highway to Interstate standards.

An odd 3di is a spur route, if you see an odd 3di you are going to assume that it only connects to the parent Interstate once, an even 3di is a bypass or beltway and you are going to assume that it starts and ends at the same route or another Interstate highway. Why should they be allowed to use an digit 3di when the highway is a bypass or beltway and not a spur route?

You are right about that? How do you figure that? You have a guideline of how highways are numbered and you want to start just using any number? How does that make sense?

There's no reason to force a state to only use state numbers if even 3di run out while odd 3di are still available.

Again, stop it.
Control cities CAN be off the route! Control cities make NO sense if signs end before the city is reached!

Travel Mapping - Most Traveled: I-40, 20, 10, 5, 95 - Longest Clinched: I-20, 85, 24, 16, NJ Tpk mainline
Champions - UGA FB '21 '22 - Atlanta Braves '95 '21 - Atlanta MLS '18

Flint1979

Quote from: ran4sh on May 28, 2023, 11:57:44 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 28, 2023, 12:33:24 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on May 27, 2023, 06:50:30 PM
Quote from: brad2971 on May 27, 2023, 04:24:56 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on May 27, 2023, 04:12:31 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 26, 2023, 02:16:46 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on May 26, 2023, 12:04:37 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 06, 2022, 04:24:44 PM
There is no rule that odd-numbered first-digit three-digit Interstate Highways can't end at another Interstate at both ends.

Well obviously when a state runs out of even numbers for the first digit of loop/circumferential routes, they're allowed to use odd numbers for the first digit of additional such routes. That doesn't disprove the existence of such a rule.
That is not how it goes.

You stop that.

What's the alternative, don't build any more 3di when the numbers run out? Of course not.

So once again, you stop that.

As Texas and Florida, not to mention California and Arizona, have amply demonstrated, not every freeway or tollway has to have that red, white, and blue Interstate shield.

That's a non-answer

The question is, what are states allowed to do, or what *should* states do, if they run out of even-first-digit 3di numbers, but they build more 3dis. Interstate designation is valuable because interstate standards are higher than state route standards generally.

Some people think they shouldn't be allowed to use odd-first-digit 3di numbers.

That is incorrect, and I am right about that, and unless someone shows me a legitimate reference that I am incorrect about that, then I will treat it as me being right about that.
They make them into state highways. There is no rule that a highway has to be an Interstate in order to be Interstate standard, you can build a state highway to Interstate standards.

An odd 3di is a spur route, if you see an odd 3di you are going to assume that it only connects to the parent Interstate once, an even 3di is a bypass or beltway and you are going to assume that it starts and ends at the same route or another Interstate highway. Why should they be allowed to use an digit 3di when the highway is a bypass or beltway and not a spur route?

You are right about that? How do you figure that? You have a guideline of how highways are numbered and you want to start just using any number? How does that make sense?

There's no reason to force a state to only use state numbers if even 3di run out while odd 3di are still available.

Again, stop it.
To force a state to only use state numbers? What are you talking about? In order for a highway to become an Interstate they have to apply for it to become an Interstate, it either gets approved or denied. I'd love to see you tell MDOT that they should have all their freeways as Interstates. No one is forcing anyone to do anything here.

You stop it.

Flint1979

Quote from: sprjus4 on May 28, 2023, 11:26:51 PM
^ See NC I-540, SC I-520
Are those the only two examples? In I-520's case it wasn't originally a loop, it ended before getting back to I-20 it was extended so the number was kept that is what I gather from it. In I-540's case that one is still a spur actually but I thought that they were talking about renumbering it when it was completed.

MATraveler128

Quote from: Flint1979 on May 29, 2023, 09:09:38 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 28, 2023, 11:26:51 PM
^ See NC I-540, SC I-520
Are those the only two examples? In I-520's case it wasn't originally a loop, it ended before getting back to I-20 it was extended so the number was kept that is what I gather from it. In I-540's case that one is still a spur actually but I thought that they were talking about renumbering it when it was completed.

I-376 in Pennsylvania is another one, which has the same story as I-520 in which it was extended back to I-76 and even up to I-80 back in 2009. In the case of I-540 in Raleigh becoming I-640, I don't see that happening any time soon if ever.
Decommission 128 south of Peabody!

Lowest untraveled number: 56

Rothman

Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

hotdogPi

There are misnumbered routes here and there, but the closest ones to New England are I-495 and I-684 in New York and I-476 in Pennsylvania. All 3dis that contain exits in New England are correct or could go either way.

Maine
I-195: Spur
I-295: Bypass of I-295
I-395: Spur

Vermont
I-189: Spur

New Hampshire
I-293: Beltway of I-93
I-393: Spur

Massachusetts
I-190: Connects two cities (Leominster and Worcester); clearly not a loop or anything similar.
I-290: I could see this one going either way. It's does make an almost 90° turn, but it's not really a bypass of anything, since it goes through Worcester rather than around it.
I-291: Quarter beltway.
I-391: Spur
I-195: Providence-Fall River-New Bedford connector. While I prefer odd as it is currently, an even first digit wouldn't be totally out of place, as it's part of Boston's third beltway.
I-295: Obvious beltway of Providence.
I-395: Straight line connecting Worcester and New London. While not exactly a spur, it's definitely not a loop; it's similar to I-135 in Kansas or I-155 in Illinois and therefore gets an odd number.
I-495: Beltway of Boston, even if it does have some straight segments.

Rhode Island

Both I-195 and I-295 are in the Massachusetts section.

Connecticut
I-291: One quarter (one sixth?) beltway.
I-384: Spur
I-395: See Massachusetts section
I-684: This one is wrong (it goes straight towards New York City), which is why I specified "that contain exits" at the beginning of this post.
I-691: This could go either way, as it's a straight line, but it's also a way to avoid Hartford.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

Flint1979

Quote from: BlueOutback7 on May 29, 2023, 09:14:45 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 29, 2023, 09:09:38 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 28, 2023, 11:26:51 PM
^ See NC I-540, SC I-520
Are those the only two examples? In I-520's case it wasn't originally a loop, it ended before getting back to I-20 it was extended so the number was kept that is what I gather from it. In I-540's case that one is still a spur actually but I thought that they were talking about renumbering it when it was completed.

I-376 in Pennsylvania is another one, which has the same story as I-520 in which it was extended back to I-76 and even up to I-80 back in 2009. In the case of I-540 in Raleigh becoming I-640, I don't see that happening any time soon if ever.
Ahh yes I-376. It looks like in all these cases here that the freeways were originally spurs but then somehow extended back to their parent route. North Carolina's Interstate system is a mess IMO so I guess it really doesn't matter if it's 540 or 640 or whatever.

kalvado

Quote from: Flint1979 on May 28, 2023, 12:28:15 PM
Show me one state that has run out of numbers that is planning on building another Interstate that would need to use a 3di number.
Not a real example, but the Berkshire connector of NY Thruway is arguably a part of the interstate system, and there are no I-x90 numbers available.
It could easily be I-x87 if there was any actual interest in such a designation, though.

ran4sh

Quote from: Flint1979 on May 29, 2023, 09:47:06 AM
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on May 29, 2023, 09:14:45 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 29, 2023, 09:09:38 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 28, 2023, 11:26:51 PM
^ See NC I-540, SC I-520
Are those the only two examples? In I-520's case it wasn't originally a loop, it ended before getting back to I-20 it was extended so the number was kept that is what I gather from it. In I-540's case that one is still a spur actually but I thought that they were talking about renumbering it when it was completed.

I-376 in Pennsylvania is another one, which has the same story as I-520 in which it was extended back to I-76 and even up to I-80 back in 2009. In the case of I-540 in Raleigh becoming I-640, I don't see that happening any time soon if ever.
Ahh yes I-376. It looks like in all these cases here that the freeways were originally spurs but then somehow extended back to their parent route. North Carolina's Interstate system is a mess IMO so I guess it really doesn't matter if it's 540 or 640 or whatever.

So someone disproved your point yet you don't want to admit you were wrong...

Unless somehow NC doesn't count as part of the USA and its Interstate system anymore. But now that I'm saying this you'll probably try to argue that too.
Control cities CAN be off the route! Control cities make NO sense if signs end before the city is reached!

Travel Mapping - Most Traveled: I-40, 20, 10, 5, 95 - Longest Clinched: I-20, 85, 24, 16, NJ Tpk mainline
Champions - UGA FB '21 '22 - Atlanta Braves '95 '21 - Atlanta MLS '18

sprjus4

Quote from: ran4sh on May 29, 2023, 11:00:04 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 29, 2023, 09:47:06 AM
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on May 29, 2023, 09:14:45 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 29, 2023, 09:09:38 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 28, 2023, 11:26:51 PM
^ See NC I-540, SC I-520
Are those the only two examples? In I-520's case it wasn't originally a loop, it ended before getting back to I-20 it was extended so the number was kept that is what I gather from it. In I-540's case that one is still a spur actually but I thought that they were talking about renumbering it when it was completed.

I-376 in Pennsylvania is another one, which has the same story as I-520 in which it was extended back to I-76 and even up to I-80 back in 2009. In the case of I-540 in Raleigh becoming I-640, I don't see that happening any time soon if ever.
Ahh yes I-376. It looks like in all these cases here that the freeways were originally spurs but then somehow extended back to their parent route. North Carolina's Interstate system is a mess IMO so I guess it really doesn't matter if it's 540 or 640 or whatever.

So someone disproved your point yet you don't want to admit you were wrong...

Unless somehow NC doesn't count as part of the USA and its Interstate system anymore. But now that I'm saying this you'll probably try to argue that too.
Logic will only apply if it takes place within the state limits of Michigan.

sprjus4

Quote from: Flint1979 on May 29, 2023, 09:09:38 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 28, 2023, 11:26:51 PM
^ See NC I-540, SC I-520
Are those the only two examples? In I-520's case it wasn't originally a loop, it ended before getting back to I-20 it was extended so the number was kept that is what I gather from it. In I-540's case that one is still a spur actually but I thought that they were talking about renumbering it when it was completed.
I-540 is not going to be renumbered, and there is zero reason to.

sprjus4

Quote from: Flint1979 on May 29, 2023, 09:07:57 AM
To force a state to only use state numbers? What are you talking about? In order for a highway to become an Interstate they have to apply for it to become an Interstate, it either gets approved or denied. I'd love to see you tell MDOT that they should have all their freeways as Interstates. No one is forcing anyone to do anything here.

You stop it.
If a state wanted another 3di route but was out of even numbers (for a loop / connecting route), they could use an odd number. IF they wanted an interstate, they would not be forced to just make it a state route. It's a hypothetical situation for any state. Not an umpteenth non-existent situation for the state of Michigan.

What Michigan does is not representative of all states, so citing it directly in a scenario that isn't even remotely similar, is a poor argument.

Flint1979

Quote from: ran4sh on May 29, 2023, 11:00:04 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 29, 2023, 09:47:06 AM
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on May 29, 2023, 09:14:45 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 29, 2023, 09:09:38 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 28, 2023, 11:26:51 PM
^ See NC I-540, SC I-520
Are those the only two examples? In I-520's case it wasn't originally a loop, it ended before getting back to I-20 it was extended so the number was kept that is what I gather from it. In I-540's case that one is still a spur actually but I thought that they were talking about renumbering it when it was completed.

I-376 in Pennsylvania is another one, which has the same story as I-520 in which it was extended back to I-76 and even up to I-80 back in 2009. In the case of I-540 in Raleigh becoming I-640, I don't see that happening any time soon if ever.
Ahh yes I-376. It looks like in all these cases here that the freeways were originally spurs but then somehow extended back to their parent route. North Carolina's Interstate system is a mess IMO so I guess it really doesn't matter if it's 540 or 640 or whatever.

So someone disproved your point yet you don't want to admit you were wrong...

Unless somehow NC doesn't count as part of the USA and its Interstate system anymore. But now that I'm saying this you'll probably try to argue that too.
So three examples disproves my point? That isn't even close to being the majority. Most of the Interstate's in the US do follow the rules of the system, of course there are going to be a few exceptions that is common so what is exactly disproving my point? My point with North Carolina is that it's a state that has overdone the Interstate system, nothing more, nothing less.

Flint1979

Quote from: sprjus4 on May 29, 2023, 12:21:20 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on May 29, 2023, 11:00:04 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 29, 2023, 09:47:06 AM
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on May 29, 2023, 09:14:45 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 29, 2023, 09:09:38 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 28, 2023, 11:26:51 PM
^ See NC I-540, SC I-520
Are those the only two examples? In I-520's case it wasn't originally a loop, it ended before getting back to I-20 it was extended so the number was kept that is what I gather from it. In I-540's case that one is still a spur actually but I thought that they were talking about renumbering it when it was completed.

I-376 in Pennsylvania is another one, which has the same story as I-520 in which it was extended back to I-76 and even up to I-80 back in 2009. In the case of I-540 in Raleigh becoming I-640, I don't see that happening any time soon if ever.
Ahh yes I-376. It looks like in all these cases here that the freeways were originally spurs but then somehow extended back to their parent route. North Carolina's Interstate system is a mess IMO so I guess it really doesn't matter if it's 540 or 640 or whatever.

So someone disproved your point yet you don't want to admit you were wrong...

Unless somehow NC doesn't count as part of the USA and its Interstate system anymore. But now that I'm saying this you'll probably try to argue that too.
Logic will only apply if it takes place within the state limits of Michigan.
And how is that? I'm pretty aware of how other states operate other than Michigan. Michigan also isn't the only state that doesn't put the red, white and blue shield on every freeway they have.

Flint1979

Quote from: sprjus4 on May 29, 2023, 12:21:58 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 29, 2023, 09:09:38 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 28, 2023, 11:26:51 PM
^ See NC I-540, SC I-520
Are those the only two examples? In I-520's case it wasn't originally a loop, it ended before getting back to I-20 it was extended so the number was kept that is what I gather from it. In I-540's case that one is still a spur actually but I thought that they were talking about renumbering it when it was completed.
I-540 is not going to be renumbered, and there is zero reason to.
I never said it was going to or needed to be, I simply said that I've seen it mentioned elsewhere.

Flint1979

Quote from: sprjus4 on May 29, 2023, 12:24:10 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 29, 2023, 09:07:57 AM
To force a state to only use state numbers? What are you talking about? In order for a highway to become an Interstate they have to apply for it to become an Interstate, it either gets approved or denied. I'd love to see you tell MDOT that they should have all their freeways as Interstates. No one is forcing anyone to do anything here.

You stop it.
If a state wanted another 3di route but was out of even numbers (for a loop / connecting route), they could use an odd number. IF they wanted an interstate, they would not be forced to just make it a state route. It's a hypothetical situation for any state. Not an umpteenth non-existent situation for the state of Michigan.

What Michigan does is not representative of all states, so citing it directly in a scenario that isn't even remotely similar, is a poor argument.
Um ok.

roadman65

Quote from: Flint1979 on May 29, 2023, 09:47:06 AM
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on May 29, 2023, 09:14:45 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 29, 2023, 09:09:38 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 28, 2023, 11:26:51 PM
^ See NC I-540, SC I-520
Are those the only two examples? In I-520's case it wasn't originally a loop, it ended before getting back to I-20 it was extended so the number was kept that is what I gather from it. In I-540's case that one is still a spur actually but I thought that they were talking about renumbering it when it was completed.

I-376 in Pennsylvania is another one, which has the same story as I-520 in which it was extended back to I-76 and even up to I-80 back in 2009. In the case of I-540 in Raleigh becoming I-640, I don't see that happening any time soon if ever.
Ahh yes I-376. It looks like in all these cases here that the freeways were originally spurs but then somehow extended back to their parent route. North Carolina's Interstate system is a mess IMO so I guess it really doesn't matter if it's 540 or 640 or whatever.

What about I-678 in NY. A Spur now but originally a loop of cancelled I-78. So really it's in violation in two ways as the other that it no longer plans to connect back to its parent.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

Flint1979

Quote from: roadman65 on May 29, 2023, 10:27:47 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 29, 2023, 09:47:06 AM
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on May 29, 2023, 09:14:45 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 29, 2023, 09:09:38 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 28, 2023, 11:26:51 PM
^ See NC I-540, SC I-520
Are those the only two examples? In I-520's case it wasn't originally a loop, it ended before getting back to I-20 it was extended so the number was kept that is what I gather from it. In I-540's case that one is still a spur actually but I thought that they were talking about renumbering it when it was completed.

I-376 in Pennsylvania is another one, which has the same story as I-520 in which it was extended back to I-76 and even up to I-80 back in 2009. In the case of I-540 in Raleigh becoming I-640, I don't see that happening any time soon if ever.
Ahh yes I-376. It looks like in all these cases here that the freeways were originally spurs but then somehow extended back to their parent route. North Carolina's Interstate system is a mess IMO so I guess it really doesn't matter if it's 540 or 640 or whatever.

What about I-678 in NY. A Spur now but originally a loop of cancelled I-78. So really it's in violation in two ways as the other that it no longer plans to connect back to its parent.
It's indeed a violator now. Same thing with it's neighbors I-278, I-295 and I-495, although I-495 does connect with I-295 which connects with I-95 but only on one end at it's northern terminus in The Bronx. I don't have a problem with even numbered 3dis that have both ends at an Interstate regardless if one of the ends isn't at the parent route but rather another Interstate such as I-696 in Michigan. But ones that just end at random places instead of another Interstate shouldn't have an even first number but rather an odd one. I don't have a problem with the odd 3dis having both ends at the parent Interstate either but if I was in that area and saw like I-520 I'd assume that it only connects with I-20 once even though it does connect with it twice. I would also assume that I-678 would get me back to I-78 on both ends. I guess it's hard in that area since I-78 ends on the New Jersey side and doesn't continue past NYC. I guess it's ok the way it is now since we're all used to it.

roadman65

If the Mid Manhattan Expressway didn't get cancelled I-495 would have connected to its parent at one end at least and its other end at cancelled I-78.

The section of I-495 east of I-295 was originally NY 24 to later become NY 495 to then what it is now. Plans also got studied to extend I-495 further east into CT or RI via a long Cross Sound Bridge, and was also considered to travel further east onto the North Fork hence its end at Old Country Road having an off ramp from a stub.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

hotdogPi

It would have been an interesting multi-state Route 24 if it had happened differently...
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

Scott5114

This is supposed to be a thread about why Boston has two loops, not about highway numbering. Derailing it with a particularly gratuitous highway numbering discussion
Quote from: kernals12 on February 19, 2022, 10:54:23 AM
is merely annoying
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

roadman65

To get back on track, Houston has one more loop than Boston. It has its third being built in stages as I write, so Boston isn't so unusual anymore.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

ran4sh

Houston's 1st loop is small enough that the 3rd one is not that far out though.
Control cities CAN be off the route! Control cities make NO sense if signs end before the city is reached!

Travel Mapping - Most Traveled: I-40, 20, 10, 5, 95 - Longest Clinched: I-20, 85, 24, 16, NJ Tpk mainline
Champions - UGA FB '21 '22 - Atlanta Braves '95 '21 - Atlanta MLS '18



Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.