DST (2018)

[tradephoric]

Or we could do away with time-zones completely and have one universal world time.  However, the key is to set up the business day to start at the exact same time around the world, regardless of what the sun is doing.  Then people move to various parts of the world depending if they are morning people or night people (ie. if they want to work during the day or night).  Boom!  Problem solved.

[kkt]

Or we could do away with time-zones completely and have one universal world time.  However, the key is to set up the business day to start at the exact same time around the world, regardless of what the sun is doing.  Then people move to various parts of the world depending if they are morning people or night people (ie. if they want to work during the day or night).  Boom!  Problem solved.

We've already got UTC for those who want it.  But most people, the overwhelming majority of people, don't want it for their everyday lives.

[tradephoric]

A lot of regions in the world are in the wrong time-zone if you are basing it strictly on longitude.  A few examples include Spain, France, Singapore, Argentina, much of China, and Russia.  In all these cases, the regions intrude into their western timezone neighbor.  OTOH, regions rarely intrude into their eastern timezone neighbor (apart from eastern Greenland which already gets near perpetual sunlight in the summer anyways).  The point is it seems that many countries favor to push back their solar noon to later in the day - meaning enjoying more light at the end of the day as opposed to the beginning.

[Scott5114]

I love the font used to label the oceans on that map, so much so that I did some research to dig it up. It's called Sanvito.

[vdeane]

A lot of those are the result of permanent DST (Iceland, the UTC parts of Greenland, Russia, Argentina, Cancun, etc.).

[tradephoric]

A lot of those are the result of permanent DST (Iceland, the UTC parts of Greenland, Russia, Argentina, Cancun, etc.).

That's true.  If America adopted permanent DST, America would mimic Russia on the map (with the timezones shifting farther to the west).  And if Europe remained on DST (not permanent DST), it would mean that NYC would only be 4 hours behind London during the winter months and only 1 hour behind Rio De Janeiro year round.  In addition to enjoying more sunlight later in the day in America, the business day of North America/South America/and Europe would more closely interlap.

[vdeane]

It would also be abysmally dark in the morning in winter, making it hard for us night owls to get up and ready for work when we need to (some of us are stuck in "9-5"), and making the ice I need to scrape off the windshield every night it goes below freezing hard as a rock, since the sun will not have had a chance to warm it up before I need to leave.  And what with Canada?  Are they really going to adopt permanent DST just because of the US?

[webny99]

And what with Canada?  Are they really going to adopt permanent DST just because of the US?

Doubtful, considering Saskatchewan already does their own thing, and western Ontario is already extremely far west (even further than Indiana) and is on EST.

[tradephoric]

It would also be abysmally dark in the morning in winter, making it hard for us night owls to get up and ready for work when we need to (some of us are stuck in "9-5"), and making the ice I need to scrape off the windshield every night it goes below freezing hard as a rock, since the sun will not have had a chance to warm it up before I need to leave.  And what with Canada?  Are they really going to adopt permanent DST just because of the US?

The sun would rise at 8:16AM in NYC on the winter solstice if we had permanent DST with civil twilight starting at 7:45AM.  If you get up at 7:45AM or later for work in NYC, there would be light even on the shortest day of the year (the New York Stock Exchange starts at 9:30am... giving traders nearly 2 hours of light before the bell rings to start the business world).  That doesn't sound abysmally dark to me.  By the way the sun currently sets at 4:30pm in NYC during the winter solstice.  You are a self described night owl, so that means you are probably up for hours after the sun sets in NYC on the shortest day of the year.  Just ask yourself this question.... are more people in NYC sleeping at 8:16 AM or 4:30PM?

[jeffandnicole]

It would also be abysmally dark in the morning in winter, making it hard for us night owls to get up and ready for work when we need to (some of us are stuck in "9-5"), and making the ice I need to scrape off the windshield every night it goes below freezing hard as a rock, since the sun will not have had a chance to warm it up before I need to leave.  And what with Canada?  Are they really going to adopt permanent DST just because of the US?

The sun would rise at 8:16AM in NYC on the winter solstice if we had permanent DST with civil twilight starting at 7:45AM.  If you get up at 7:45AM or later for work in NYC, there would be light even on the shortest day of the year (the New York Stock Exchange starts at 9:30am... giving traders nearly 2 hours of light before the bell rings to start the business world).  That doesn't sound abysmally dark to me.  By the way the sun currently sets at 4:30pm in NYC during the winter solstice.  You are a self described night owl, so that means you are probably up for hours after the sun sets in NYC on the shortest day of the year.  Just ask yourself this question.... are more people in NYC sleeping at 8:16 AM or 4:30PM?

Trick question.  New York City is the city that never sleeps.

[02 Park Ave]

tradephoric, neither the latest sunrise nor the earliest sunset occurs on the winter solstice. The latest sunrise occurs about two weeks later and the earliest sunset occurs about two weeks earlier.  You can look it up.

[kkt]

It would also be abysmally dark in the morning in winter, making it hard for us night owls to get up and ready for work when we need to (some of us are stuck in "9-5"), and making the ice I need to scrape off the windshield every night it goes below freezing hard as a rock, since the sun will not have had a chance to warm it up before I need to leave.  And what with Canada?  Are they really going to adopt permanent DST just because of the US?

The sun would rise at 8:16AM in NYC on the winter solstice if we had permanent DST with civil twilight starting at 7:45AM.  If you get up at 7:45AM or later for work in NYC, there would be light even on the shortest day of the year (the New York Stock Exchange starts at 9:30am... giving traders nearly 2 hours of light before the bell rings to start the business world).  That doesn't sound abysmally dark to me.  By the way the sun currently sets at 4:30pm in NYC during the winter solstice.  You are a self described night owl, so that means you are probably up for hours after the sun sets in NYC on the shortest day of the year.  Just ask yourself this question.... are more people in NYC sleeping at 8:16 AM or 4:30PM?

New York City is located around the correct longitude for its time zone.  For full credit, repeat the exercise for other cities in the Eastern Time Zone but which are located much farther west.

[tradephoric]

tradephoric, neither the latest sunrise nor the earliest sunset occurs on the winter solstice. The latest sunrise occurs about two weeks later and the earliest sunset occurs about two weeks earlier.  You can look it up.

The winter solstice is the day with the shortest period of daylight... that's why the focus of sunrise/sunset times are made on that day.   But in the end there are only two options if you want to never have to set your clocks twice a year... eliminate DST entirely or make DST permanent.  Sure, vdeane doesn't want permanent DST because he would have to scrape the ice off the windows during the winter and his little hands would get cold in the morning... awwww booo.  But if we didn't have DST at all, then civil twilight would begin at 3:50am in NYC during the summer solstice and the sun would set at a relatively early 7:28pm (it would be getting dark by the 2nd inning of the Yankees game).  People want to enjoy their summer nights (shocker!) and DST accomplishes this.  I doubt Vdeane is complaining that it's still dark at 4AM during the summer solstice.  Maybe 3 people in all of NYC would complain that it's still dark at 4AM.  These 3 people might want to eliminate daylight saving time, but the other 7 million people in NYC would hate having 1 less hour of sunlight during the summer evenings.

[tradephoric]

New York City is located around the correct longitude for its time zone.  For full credit, repeat the exercise for other cities in the Eastern Time Zone but which are located much farther west.

I did post sunrise/sunset times during the winter solstice if DST was made permanent.  Detroit is a city on the western edge of the eastern timezone.  The response was "But look at that sunrise time in Detroit!  High school kids would be in their 2nd period classes before they see daylight!".  Again though... are more people sleeping in Detroit at 8:57AM or 6:02PM.  To me, 6:02PM is still relatively early.  Most people in Detroit are going to be awake for at least another 3 or 4 hours.  Even with permanent DST, cities in the most western edge of the eastern timezone are going to be blanketed in darkness for much of the evening when most people are still awake.

Here are sunrise/sunset times of various cities during the winter solstice under Standard Time and proposed year-round DST.  Those poor people in Bangor, Maine currently watch the sunset at 3:57PM during the winter solstice… depressing!

But look at that sunrise time in Detroit!  High school kids would be in their 2nd period classes before they see daylight!

[kalvado]

tradephoric, neither the latest sunrise nor the earliest sunset occurs on the winter solstice. The latest sunrise occurs about two weeks later and the earliest sunset occurs about two weeks earlier.  You can look it up.

Difference is not that great, and having all numbers in same place is a bit easier to handle..

[tradephoric]

Politically permanent DST actually has a chance of passing.  With Florida passing their Sunshine Protection Act and Marco Rubio trying to push similar legislation through the US Congress, we could potentially see permanent DST in America in the next few years.  I imagine states could still opt out of DST completely (like Arizona and Hawaii currently do).  Potentially a lot of states on Rocky Time will want to opt out of DST to be on Pacific time... and Arizona will suddenly have a lot of company!

There is no legislation in Congress to eliminate DST.  Anybody who wants to eliminate DST may have to settle for permanent DST.  But it accomplishes everyone's biggest goal... not having to set their clocks twice a year. 

[mrsman]

Politically permanent DST actually has a chance of passing.  With Florida passing their Sunshine Protection Act and Marco Rubio trying to push similar legislation through the US Congress, we could potentially see permanent DST in America in the next few years.  I imagine states could still opt out of DST completely (like Arizona and Hawaii currently do).  Potentially a lot of states on Rocky Time will want to opt out of DST to be on Pacific time... and Arizona will suddenly have a lot of company!

There is no legislation in Congress to eliminate DST.  Anybody who wants to eliminate DST may have to settle for permanent DST.  But it accomplishes everyone's biggest goal... not having to set their clocks twice a year.

I can easily see that. AZ time is both permanent Mtn Standard or permanent Pac DST.  I can see much of the western edges of time zones following suit.  So the Dakotas can be on permanent Mtn DST.  Indiana and Michigan can be permanent Ctl DST.  And New England can be on permanent Eastern DST.  Basically move the boundaries of the time zones a few hundred miles to the east and then get rid of the clock change.

As it is, I know of many people who start work extra early on Fridays in the summer so that they could leave earlier and head towards weekend vacation spots.  In effect, at least on Fridays, these people do a double DST.  People with flexible work schedules could pick the time that suits them, but there is no reason to force every one else to shift.

[tradephoric]

And what with Canada?  Are they really going to adopt permanent DST just because of the US?

Well do you really think if America went to permanent DST that Canada wouldn't follow suit?  That's not even a question in my mind.

[kkt]

New York City is located around the correct longitude for its time zone.  For full credit, repeat the exercise for other cities in the Eastern Time Zone but which are located much farther west.

I did post sunrise/sunset times during the winter solstice if DST was made permanent.  Detroit is a city on the western edge of the eastern timezone.  The response was "But look at that sunrise time in Detroit!  High school kids would be in their 2nd period classes before they see daylight!".  Again though... are more people sleeping in Detroit at 8:57AM or 6:02PM.  To me, 6:02PM is still relatively early.  Most people in Detroit are going to be awake for at least another 3 or 4 hours.  Even with permanent DST, cities in the most western edge of the eastern timezone are going to be blanketed in darkness for much of the evening when most people are still awake.

Here are sunrise/sunset times of various cities during the winter solstice under Standard Time and proposed year-round DST.  Those poor people in Bangor, Maine currently watch the sunset at 3:57PM during the winter solstice… depressing!

But look at that sunrise time in Detroit!  High school kids would be in their 2nd period classes before they see daylight!

The point is not that more people are awake at sunset than at sunrise.  The point is that it's easier to stop sleeping and get out of bed if there's some light in the sky.  Humans seem to naturally wake around dawn.  Getting up way before dawn is really hard and no one wants to do that all winter long.

[Road Hog]

What stinks is being on the eastern edge of the time zone. In May and June it starts get light here by around 4:15 or 4:20 that is too early. I have stayed in Kansas and Nebraska and it doesn't get light there until around 5 or so and it stays light longer at night.

^And if DST was eliminated it would be getting light at 3:15am!  If the  goal is to never have to change the clocks again, i think there are two options that could  work.

1.  Nationwide year-round DST (as Marco Rubio is trying to push though).

2.  Eliminate DST entirely, but shift all the time zones over.  Eastern time would become Atlantic... Central would become Eastern.... Rocky would become Central... Pacific would become Rocky.... and Alaska would become Pacific.  This would accomplish the same result as option #1, but we could at least say we are no longer on DST.

I guess there is a third option... be like China and combine time zones, and just deal with the sun setting at 1AM depending on where you live.  But i don't know if that would fly.

Maybe a single time zone for the contiguous U.S. could work if it was set halfway between Central and Mountain, where neither coast is more than 1.5 hours off their natural time. Yes, it's Super Newfie Time.

[vdeane]

The sun would rise at 8:16AM in NYC on the winter solstice if we had permanent DST with civil twilight starting at 7:45AM.  If you get up at 7:45AM or later for work in NYC, there would be light even on the shortest day of the year (the New York Stock Exchange starts at 9:30am... giving traders nearly 2 hours of light before the bell rings to start the business world).  That doesn't sound abysmally dark to me.  By the way the sun currently sets at 4:30pm in NYC during the winter solstice.  You are a self described night owl, so that means you are probably up for hours after the sun sets in NYC on the shortest day of the year.  Just ask yourself this question.... are more people in NYC sleeping at 8:16 AM or 4:30PM?

I have to arrive at work at 8:30.  Now, I know for guys you can just roll out of bed and be at your desk two minutes later, but for us girls it isn't that simple.  In order to pluck my eyebrows, put in my contacts, brush my teeth, take my pills, take a shower, dry off, do a quick email/Facebook check while letting my hair get a head start air drying (essential to not be miserable with the hairdryer and to minimize frizz), dry my hair, prepare and eat breakfast, get dressed, and commute to work, I have to be out of bed no later than 6:15, assuming there's nothing like a snowstorm or needing to wear a fancier outfit than pants and a blouse to take more time.  I save makeup and nail polish for special occasions because I'd have to get up even earlier if I didn't.

It doesn't help that I have a tendency to move slowly and space out when tired, which I always am when getting up before my circadian rhythm wants me to, between 8 and 10 (though I've been known to sleep in until noon on the weekends because I end up chronically sleep deprived over the week... insomnia is a bitch).  I could probably save 15 minutes if I was capable of consistently moving at a reasonable speed in the morning.

I usually go to bed at 11 on work nights (12-2 on weekends), though I'm really aiming for 10; I'm just never successful at going to bed that early.

My office has windows, and nobody's cube is too far from one, so I get to see the sun even if it's at work.

tradephoric, neither the latest sunrise nor the earliest sunset occurs on the winter solstice. The latest sunrise occurs about two weeks later and the earliest sunset occurs about two weeks earlier.  You can look it up.

The winter solstice is the day with the shortest period of daylight... that's why the focus of sunrise/sunset times are made on that day.   But in the end there are only two options if you want to never have to set your clocks twice a year... eliminate DST entirely or make DST permanent.  Sure, vdeane doesn't want permanent DST because he would have to scrape the ice off the windows during the winter and his little hands would get cold in the morning... awwww booo.  But if we didn't have DST at all, then civil twilight would begin at 3:50am in NYC during the summer solstice and the sun would set at a relatively early 7:28pm (it would be getting dark by the 2nd inning of the Yankees game).  People want to enjoy their summer nights (shocker!) and DST accomplishes this.  I doubt Vdeane is complaining that it's still dark at 4AM during the summer solstice.  Maybe 3 people in all of NYC would complain that it's still dark at 4AM.  These 3 people might want to eliminate daylight saving time, but the other 7 million people in NYC would hate having 1 less hour of sunlight during the summer evenings.

Most times scraping ice takes 5 minutes.  If it's hard as a rock, however, which can happen on the late sunrise days of January, it can take at least 15.  And it still leaves little streaks of ice on the windshield because trying to get rid of all of them would make it take 45 minutes.

It's not my fault that some people are incapable of staying awake without sunlight.  May I recommend natural wavelength compact fluorescents for those dark winter nights?

Politically permanent DST actually has a chance of passing.  With Florida passing their Sunshine Protection Act and Marco Rubio trying to push similar legislation through the US Congress, we could potentially see permanent DST in America in the next few years.  I imagine states could still opt out of DST completely (like Arizona and Hawaii currently do).  Potentially a lot of states on Rocky Time will want to opt out of DST to be on Pacific time... and Arizona will suddenly have a lot of company!

There is no legislation in Congress to eliminate DST.  Anybody who wants to eliminate DST may have to settle for permanent DST.  But it accomplishes everyone's biggest goal... not having to set their clocks twice a year. 

What is the big deal about trying to eliminate the clock change?  I find it to be a minor annoyance at best.  It's also good for correcting the natural drift that clocks develop over time (my watch is usually a couple minutes off by the time change).  Usually my brain has already begun to snap into the new time within a couple hours of changing the clocks.  The hour variation is much less than the variation between when I get up during the week and on the weekend.

The change I would make is to move the clock changes back to where they were before Bush changed them.  IMO neither permanent DST or no DST is optimal.

Also, it's Mountain Time, not "Rocky Time".  And everyone already knew Florida is nuts.  People are incapable of eating dinner after the sun has set?  Or shop?  Really?  I remember many family vacations where we were still out after dark (mostly 1000 Islands, but also Boston and Toronto).  Something has to be in the water down there...

[Eth]

tradephoric, neither the latest sunrise nor the earliest sunset occurs on the winter solstice. The latest sunrise occurs about two weeks later and the earliest sunset occurs about two weeks earlier.  You can look it up.

The winter solstice is the day with the shortest period of daylight... that's why the focus of sunrise/sunset times are made on that day.   But in the end there are only two options if you want to never have to set your clocks twice a year... eliminate DST entirely or make DST permanent.  Sure, vdeane doesn't want permanent DST because he would have to scrape the ice off the windows during the winter and his little hands would get cold in the morning... awwww booo.  But if we didn't have DST at all, then civil twilight would begin at 3:50am in NYC during the summer solstice and the sun would set at a relatively early 7:28pm (it would be getting dark by the 2nd inning of the Yankees game).  People want to enjoy their summer nights (shocker!) and DST accomplishes this.  I doubt Vdeane is complaining that it's still dark at 4AM during the summer solstice.  Maybe 3 people in all of NYC would complain that it's still dark at 4AM.  These 3 people might want to eliminate daylight saving time, but the other 7 million people in NYC would hate having 1 less hour of sunlight during the summer evenings.

I'm starting to think maybe y'all should just move south to a reasonable latitude and then you won't have to worry about 4 AM sunrises or 4 PM sunsets or whatever. 

[tradephoric]

I have to arrive at work at 8:30.  Now, I know for guys you can just roll out of bed and be at your desk two minutes later, but for us girls it isn't that simple.  In order to pluck my eyebrows, put in my contacts, brush my teeth, take my pills, take a shower, dry off, do a quick email/Facebook check while letting my hair get a head start air drying (essential to not be miserable with the hairdryer and to minimize frizz), dry my hair, prepare and eat breakfast, get dressed, and commute to work, I have to be out of bed no later than 6:15, assuming there's nothing like a snowstorm or needing to wear a fancier outfit than pants and a blouse to take more time.  I save makeup and nail polish for special occasions because I'd have to get up even earlier if I didn't.

What little sunlight we have during the winter months is wasted on the monotony of getting ready for work in the morning.  Do you really enjoy the sun as you pluck your eyebrows in the bathroom, brush your teeth, and take a shower?  Hell no! 

It doesn't help that I have a tendency to move slowly and space out when tired, which I always am when getting up before my circadian rhythm wants me to, between 8 and 10 (though I've been known to sleep in until noon on the weekends because I end up chronically sleep deprived over the week... insomnia is a bitch).  I could probably save 15 minutes if I was capable of consistently moving at a reasonable speed in the morning.

You just described the sleep pattern of millions of working Americans.  Now if you wake up at noon in Bangor, Maine during the winter, you only have 3 hours and 57 minutes of daylight left (and have already wasted nearly 5 hours of daylight).   Talk about a crappy start to the weekend.

Also, it's Mountain Time, not "Rocky Time".  And everyone already knew Florida is nuts.  People are incapable of eating dinner after the sun has set?  Or shop?  Really?  I remember many family vacations where we were still out after dark (mostly 1000 Islands, but also Boston and Toronto).  Something has to be in the water down there...

There is a lot of things that Florida is nuts about, but this isn't one of them.  Let's just admit that people who live in the northern states are pretty much screwed during the winter... regardless of exactly when the sun rises or sets.  But in Florida you can have pleasant evenings during the winter months.  Why not spend an hour longer on the golf course, go out to dinner at the beach, or enjoy a BBQ after work?  These winter activities are limited when it's pitch dark in Florida at 5:59 pm (that's when civil twilight ends in Orlando during the winter solstice).

[kkt]

tradephoric, neither the latest sunrise nor the earliest sunset occurs on the winter solstice. The latest sunrise occurs about two weeks later and the earliest sunset occurs about two weeks earlier.  You can look it up.

The winter solstice is the day with the shortest period of daylight... that's why the focus of sunrise/sunset times are made on that day.   But in the end there are only two options if you want to never have to set your clocks twice a year... eliminate DST entirely or make DST permanent.  Sure, vdeane doesn't want permanent DST because he would have to scrape the ice off the windows during the winter and his little hands would get cold in the morning... awwww booo.  But if we didn't have DST at all, then civil twilight would begin at 3:50am in NYC during the summer solstice and the sun would set at a relatively early 7:28pm (it would be getting dark by the 2nd inning of the Yankees game).  People want to enjoy their summer nights (shocker!) and DST accomplishes this.  I doubt Vdeane is complaining that it's still dark at 4AM during the summer solstice.  Maybe 3 people in all of NYC would complain that it's still dark at 4AM.  These 3 people might want to eliminate daylight saving time, but the other 7 million people in NYC would hate having 1 less hour of sunlight during the summer evenings.

I'm starting to think maybe y'all should just move south to a reasonable latitude and then you won't have to worry about 4 AM sunrises or 4 PM sunsets or whatever. 

Or you all could move to Arizona or Saskatchewan or whatever.  Shrug.

[tradephoric]

I'm starting to think maybe y'all should just move south to a reasonable latitude and then you won't have to worry about 4 AM sunrises or 4 PM sunsets or whatever. 

Even if i move to Florida it's pitch dark by 6PM in the winter!  That's still way too damn early.  Of course if we went to permanent DST....