DST (2018)

[tradephoric]

What is the big deal about trying to eliminate the clock change? I find it to be a minor annoyance at best.  It's also good for correcting the natural drift that clocks develop over time (my watch is usually a couple minutes off by the time change).  Usually my brain has already begun to snap into the new time within a couple hours of changing the clocks.  The hour variation is much less than the variation between when I get up during the week and on the weekend.

Changing the clocks twice a year is a sudden shock to people's routine.  As one example, someone who drove home from work in daylight the Friday before the time change may now be driving home in pitch darkness the following Monday after the time change (even though they punch out at the same time).  And millions of commuters are dealing with this same 'shock'.  A lot of people don't like driving at night, and the Monday following a time change might be the first time they have driven at night in several months (and they are pretty much forced to do it if they have a job... good luck getting off early by saying you aren't comfortable driving at night).  Those drivers who don't like driving at night are pretty much thrown into the DEEP end of the pool every year during the time change.  Is it any wonder there is a spike in traffic crashes immediately following a time change?

Maybe there is a big benefit to staying on standard time during the winter months, but what is the compelling argument?   To be fair, the time changes do remind us all to re-calibrate our wrist watches... but that isn't compelling enough to keep switching between standard time and DST.

[tradephoric]

If that is what the people of Florida want, perhaps no one there will change their clocks next November.  Then they will have achieved what they want without having to lift a finger.

Federal laws doesn't allow a state to remain on permanent DST year-round... it only allows a state to remain on standard time year-round.  In order for Florida's Sunshine Protection Act to take effect, similar legislation must be passed through the US Congress and that is what Marco Rubio is trying to do now.

[02 Park Ave]

How are the politicians going to force the people to change their clocks in November?

[tradephoric]

How are the politicians going to force the people to change their clocks in November?

There is a section in the Uniform Time Act of 1966 that addresses violations.  I'm no legal expert but maybe someone here could decipher what would happen if a state like Florida refused to go back to standard time in November. 

(c) Violations; enforcement

For any violation of the provisions of this section the Secretary of Transportation or his duly authorized agent may apply to the district court of the United States for the district in which such violation occurs for the enforcement of this section; and such court shall have jurisdiction to enforce obedience thereto by writ of injunction or by other process, mandatory or otherwise, restraining against further violations of this section and enjoining obedience thereto.
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/STATUTE-80/pdf/STATUTE-80-Pg107.pdf

[hotdogPi]

If that is what the people of Florida want, perhaps no one there will change their clocks next November.  Then they will have achieved what they want without having to lift a finger.

Federal laws doesn't allow a state to remain on permanent DST year-round... it only allows a state to remain on standard time year-round.  In order for Florida's Sunshine Protection Act to take effect, similar legislation must be passed through the US Congress and that is what Marco Rubio is trying to do now.

Then why didn't they switch to Atlantic Standard Time?

[kalvado]

If that is what the people of Florida want, perhaps no one there will change their clocks next November.  Then they will have achieved what they want without having to lift a finger.

Federal laws doesn't allow a state to remain on permanent DST year-round... it only allows a state to remain on standard time year-round.  In order for Florida's Sunshine Protection Act to take effect, similar legislation must be passed through the US Congress and that is what Marco Rubio is trying to do now.

Then why didn't they switch to Atlantic Standard Time?

Because that is also federal domain. Feds get to draw time zones and establish DST dates. States may choose not to observe DST at all, but not to observe that on different dates or move to a different time zone.
Legally correct way of doing things (as far as I understand) would be to petition secretary of transportation requesting to be moved to a different time zone, not to tweak DST..

[tradephoric]

Yep, it would take an act of Congress for a state to change time zones.  The Secretary of Transportation would certainly deny Florida's request to change time zones seeing that the state is nowhere near the Atlantic Time Zone and all the surrounding states (North & East of Florida) are on Eastern Time.

Florida is going about it the right way... they just need to petition the U.S. Congress to amend the Uniform Time Act of 1966 to allow permanent DST.

[kkt]

How are the politicians going to force the people to change their clocks in November?

Some businesses have regulated minimum hours of business, banks for instance.  Federally regulated transportation like railroads and airlines may need to go by legal local time in their state, not whatever the no-nothings want to set their clocks to.  For individual people, no one would care if they want to set their time on Nepal Standard Time (EDT +9h 45m) if they want, though that would sort of defeat the purpose of having a clock.

[tradephoric]

How are the politicians going to force the people to change their clocks in November?

Some businesses have regulated minimum hours of business, banks for instance.  Federally regulated transportation like railroads and airlines may need to go by legal local time in their state, not whatever the no-nothings want to set their clocks to.  For individual people, no one would care if they want to set their time on Nepal Standard Time (EDT +9h 45m) if they want, though that would sort of defeat the purpose of having a clock.

But what would happen if a CEO of a major Florida company based their hours on permanent DST?  Short of confusing the hell out their customers, would there be any legal ramifications?

[kalvado]

How are the politicians going to force the people to change their clocks in November?

Some businesses have regulated minimum hours of business, banks for instance.  Federally regulated transportation like railroads and airlines may need to go byhttps://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?action=post;quote=2316631;topic=22229.400;last_msg=2316631 legal local time in their state, not whatever the no-nothings want to set their clocks to.  For individual people, no one would care if they want to set their time on Nepal Standard Time (EDT +9h 45m) if they want, though that would sort of defeat the purpose of having a clock.

But what would happen if a CEO of a major Florida company based their hours on permanent DST?  Short of confusing the hell out their customers, would there be any legal ramifications?

They can do that even without any clock movement. Make 7 AM-3PM default office hours, end of story.

[02 Park Ave]

Do we even know if the Uniform Time Act of 1966 is constitutional.  Has there ever been a legal suit brought?

[Takumi]

Dude. Just stop.

[kkt]

Do we even know if the Uniform Time Act of 1966 is constitutional.  Has there ever been a legal suit brought?

I think the interstate commerce clause would be a pretty ironclad justification for the Uniform Time Act.

[tradephoric]

Oregon lawmaker aims to make daylight saving time permanent
http://www.ktvz.com/news/oregon-lawmaker-aims-to-make-daylight-saving-time-permanent/715346420

[hotdogPi]

Oregon lawmaker aims to make daylight saving time permanent
http://www.ktvz.com/news/oregon-lawmaker-aims-to-make-daylight-saving-time-permanent/715346420

And splitting the Portland metro area?

[kalvado]

Oregon lawmaker aims to make daylight saving time permanent
http://www.ktvz.com/news/oregon-lawmaker-aims-to-make-daylight-saving-time-permanent/715346420

And splitting the Portland metro area?

"My office has been in contact with legislators in Washington and California, and we are enthusiastic about people not having to change their clocks again.

[jakeroot]

I'd be fine with this. I think more people would appreciate light in the evening than in the morning. As a 22 year old, I know I would. My grandparents? Not so much.

As discussed above, would our time zones change from Pacific to Mountain? Or Pacific DST? I think the former is the only thing allowed.

[hbelkins]

Yep, it would take an act of Congress for a state to change time zones.  The Secretary of Transportation would certainly deny Florida's request to change time zones seeing that the state is nowhere near the Atlantic Time Zone and all the surrounding states (North & East of Florida) are on Eastern Time.

"Hey Mitch, it's Marco."

"Hello Marco, how are you?"

"I'm fine, and yourself?"

"I'm good too, thanks for asking."

"Hey Mitch, I need a favor. I need you to tell your wife to approve Florida's request to change time zones. You know that big bill you're wanting passed? I was leaning against it, but if you will convince your wife to approve this request, I will support your bill and will sign on as a co-sponsor."

"Well, Marco, that sounds fair. I will talk to Elaine tonight. I'm sure she will see the validity in your request and you'll have no problems getting it approved. And I appreciate your support on our legislation. I was hoping there would be something we could do to get you on board."

"Thanks, Mitch, I really appreciate it. Sounds like a win-win for both of us."

"Yes it does, Marco. See you on the Senate floor tomorrow."

[tradephoric]

Yep, it would take an act of Congress for a state to change time zones.  The Secretary of Transportation would certainly deny Florida's request to change time zones seeing that the state is nowhere near the Atlantic Time Zone and all the surrounding states (North & East of Florida) are on Eastern Time.

"Hey Mitch, it's Marco."

"Hello Marco, how are you?"

"I'm fine, and yourself?"

"I'm good too, thanks for asking."

"Hey Mitch, I need a favor. I need you to tell your wife to approve Florida's request to change time zones. You know that big bill you're wanting passed? I was leaning against it, but if you will convince your wife to approve this request, I will support your bill and will sign on as a co-sponsor."

"Well, Marco, that sounds fair. I will talk to Elaine tonight. I'm sure she will see the validity in your request and you'll have no problems getting it approved. And I appreciate your support on our legislation. I was hoping there would be something we could do to get you on board."

"Thanks, Mitch, I really appreciate it. Sounds like a win-win for both of us."

"Yes it does, Marco. See you on the Senate floor tomorrow."

But nobody in the state legislator is proposing that Florida switch time zones.  Even if Marco lobbied for Florida to change time zones, it wouldn't accomplish what they are after.  Yes, Florida wants later sunsets in the winter but they still want to be on the same time as NYC.  That's why Florida's Sunshine Protection Act is contingent on Congress amending the Uniform Time Act of 1966 to allow permanent DST.

[tradephoric]

Yes, Florida wants later sunsets in the winter...

It's worth mentioning that after year-round DST was enacted by Nixon on January 8, 1974, the NY Times published an article entitled "Schools Ask End to Daylight Time"  on Jan. 31, 1974.  The article stated that eight Florida school-aged children had been killed in accidents since daylight time was imposed, compared to just 2 during the same period a year ago.  A spokesman for Florida's state education department said that six of the deaths "were clearly attributable to the fact that children were going off to school in darkness" .   The article also mentions that meetings were set in Florida state legislature to consider switching to standard time. 

I question why only data from Florida was cited in the NY Times article from 1974.  Did other states potentially see a drop in the number of school-aged children killed in accidents since daylight time was imposed, compared to the same period a year ago?   What about the lives potentially saved in Florida during the evening commute when it was much lighter out than the year prior?  If 20 total lives were saved, but 6 school-aged children were killed... would that be seen as a net positive in reducing TOTAL fatalities?  Hard questions to answer i guess...

I do know a 2004 study analyzed the effects of daylight and daylight saving time on US pedestrian fatalities and motor vehicle occupant fatalities.  That study estimated that permanent DST would reduce pedestrian fatalities by 171 per year and reduce motor vehicle occupant fatalities by 195 per year. 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0001457503000150

[NWI_Irish96]

Yes, Florida wants later sunsets in the winter...

It’s worth mentioning that after year-round DST was enacted by Nixon on January 8, 1974, the NY Times published an article entitled “Schools Ask End to Daylight Time” on Jan. 31, 1974.  The article stated that eight Florida school-aged children had been killed in accidents since daylight time was imposed, compared to just 2 during the same period a year ago.  A spokesman for Florida’s state education department said that six of the deaths “were clearly attributable to the fact that children were going off to school in darkness”.   The article also mentions that meetings were set in Florida state legislature to consider switching to standard time. 

I question why only data from Florida was cited in the NY Times article from 1974.  Did other states potentially see a drop in the number of school-aged children killed in accidents since daylight time was imposed, compared to the same period a year ago?   What about the lives potentially saved in Florida during the evening commute when it was much lighter out than the year prior?  If 20 total lives were saved, but 6 school-aged children were killed… would that be seen as a net positive in reducing TOTAL fatalities?  Hard questions to answer i guess...

I do know a 2004 study analyzed the effects of daylight and daylight saving time on US pedestrian fatalities and motor vehicle occupant fatalities.  That study estimated that permanent DST would reduce pedestrian fatalities by 171 per year and reduce motor vehicle occupant fatalities by 195 per year. 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0001457503000150

I don't have a reference handy, but a pro-Central Time group in Indiana did a similar study recently on the increase of morning accidents involving school-aged children when the sunrise is after 7am local time. 

There is no similar drop in afternoon accidents because even with earlier sunsets most, if not all, kids are already off buses by sunset.

[ghYHZ]

Had to get an early start this morning and looking out over the Gulf of St. Lawrence....there was just a hint of light at 4:45 Atlantic Time. Sunrise was at 6:10 and Sunset will be at 8:05 this evening.

[KEVIN_224]

About 5:59 AM to 7:40 PM here by New Britain, CT today. (13 hours 41 minutes)

[webny99]

About 5:59 AM to 7:40 PM here by New Britain, CT today. (13 hours 41 minutes)

Here's a cool tool that shows the amount of daylight year-round in a given place. It also includes the variations of twilight, which is interesting. Only 6h39m of true "night" last night in Rochester, from 9:50 PM to 4:28 AM.

Today's daylight in Rochester lasts from 6:15 AM to 8:02 PM. And, for the record, no, I do not have the slightest inkling of a wish that it was 5:15 AM to 7:02 PM 

[kalvado]

About 5:59 AM to 7:40 PM here by New Britain, CT today. (13 hours 41 minutes)

Here's a cool tool that shows the amount of daylight year-round in a given place. It also includes the variations of twilight, which is interesting. Only 6h39m of true "night" last night in Rochester, from 9:50 PM to 4:28 AM.

Today's daylight in Rochester lasts from 6:15 AM to 8:02 PM. And, for the record, no, I do not have the slightest inkling of a wish that it was 5:15 AM to 7:02 PM 

would you prefer it to be 7:15 AM to 9:02 PM ? Double daylight time may be an answer!
Actually as good of an idea as general daylight is. Make it fully crazy with "winter time", "summer time" and "equinox time"..