DST (2018)

[vdeane]

Assume an early riser is awake from 5AM-9PM and a late riser is from 8AM-midnight.  Under standard time during the winter solstice, a late riser in Boston experiences 434 minutes of darkness during their waking hours compared to just 352 minutes of darkness for the early riser.  Now if permanent DST was enacted, a late riser in Boston would only experience 374 minutes of darkness during their waking hours and the early riser would still experience the same 352 minutes of darkness.  Permanent DST would minimize the amount of darkness people receive during their waking hours in the winter.  As you can see, even with permanent DST, late risers in Boston miss out on 22 minutes of light vs. their earlier riser counterparts, but that's a lot better than missing out on 82 minutes of light.  Obviously, the farther west you go, the later the sunrise gets which helps ensure that it's still dark when a late riser awakens (which is a good thing, because there is so precious little sun in the winter that you don't want to waste it sleeping!).  By the time you get to Syracuse, both late risers and early risers experience the same minutes of darkness during their waking hours during the winter. 

Clearly you've never had issues with waking up and getting yourself out of bed when it's dark outside.  Larks don't need the light in the morning because their body clocks are already oriented to get up early (and in tune with society).  Owls, on the other hand, need the sun to tell them it's time to get up.  I don't usually start feeling awake until a couple HOURS after sunrise.  Of course, it doesn't help that my apartment is situated backwards: my living room gets the morning sun, and my bedroom gets the evening sun, resulting in each side getting the sun when it is not needed and lacking it when it is.

The reverse is true for functioning in the evenings: Larks start falling asleep after sunset, but Owls can stay awake easily.

I honestly don't understand the obsession with daylight any more.  What difference does it make if it's light out when I'm sitting at my desk, watching the news and using my computer?  When I was in college and didn't have classes until 9-11, it made more sense.

I also don't find the semiannual clock changes to be a burden like many seem to.  My computer and phone adjust automatically.  My bedroom clock is as simple as flipping the DST switch.  My watch (which is really my bathroom clock now, since I haven't used it as a watch in years; it does come in handy for setting the other clocks, though), microwave, and car clocks are all trivially easy to set.  Stove is slightly less convenient, but still not hard.  The only one I really don't like to deal with is the bird clock, and that's more because it's analog (literally every other clock I own is digital) and keeping the bird sounds in sync with the hours is cumbersome.  Plus I'm waking up to a blaring alarm every weekday regardless of whether the time just changed or not, and it's easy enough to not lose an hour of sleep if you instead decide to be awake one hour less that weekend (I usually adjust to the time changes around 8 Saturday, though my clocks are usually changed between 2-5).

[jeffandnicole]

...microwave...(and)...Stove...

Because the Microwave is over the stove, I try my dammest to keep the two in sync.  It probably takes me 5 minutes total to get them the way I like it.

[kalvado]

...microwave...(and)...Stove...

Because the Microwave is over the stove, I try my dammest to keep the two in sync.  It probably takes me 5 minutes total to get them the way I like it.

I have projection clock in a bedroom, which also have a frontside display. Those 2 clocks are completely independent, and they drift at different rates.
At least you can press buttons on both stove and microwave at the same time if your hands are long enough...

[vdeane]

...microwave...(and)...Stove...

Because the Microwave is over the stove, I try my dammest to keep the two in sync.  It probably takes me 5 minutes total to get them the way I like it.

I like to keep them all in sync, or as close to in sync as possible.  My first step of the time change is to re-set the seconds on my watch to the computer and correct any drift on the minutes while changing the hour.  Then I set everything else to the watch.  The clocks in the living room, stove, microwave, and car can all do that by hitting "OK" or the last button to change the hour/minute right as the minute changes.  The bird clock, meanwhile, requires that I take the battery out for a minute and finish setting it only on an even hour, and is prone to drift quicker than the others.  Alas, my bedroom clock can't be synced up.  Its seconds are relative to when it was first plugged in (or at least the last time the battery ran out when transporting it between home and college), and there's nothing I can do to change that.

The stove and microwave tend not to be able to drift to the degree as my other clocks can due to power outages.  I don't know why someone hasn't yet invented stoves or microwaves that don't lose their time when the power goes out.

[kalvado]

The stove and microwave tend not to be able to drift to the degree as my other clocks can due to power outages.  I don't know why someone hasn't yet invented stoves or microwaves that don't lose their time when the power goes out.

Because we need something to hate just to vent that feeling?
I specifically hate clock on my stove which keeps time during the power outage - but it does not advance while there is no power. If power goes out at 10.00 and comes back at 10.15, damn thing is 15 minutes late until I reset it.

[jeffandnicole]

...I don't know why someone hasn't yet invented stoves or microwaves that don't lose their time when the power goes out.

Seriously.  2 AA batteries would fix that issue. 

My other 'mistake' when I bought my range and microwave.  I got different brands.  Didn't think of it at the time, but when I installed them one clock uses green numerals, one uses orange.  It was just 'off' I guess I could say.  Of course, now, I don't even notice it.

[kkt]

...microwave...(and)...Stove...

Because the Microwave is over the stove, I try my dammest to keep the two in sync.  It probably takes me 5 minutes total to get them the way I like it.

My microwave's clock is permanently off.  It functions only to time the cooking and as an extra timer.  Where it could display time of day, it is blank instead.  No more resetting it after power failures or for DST, no more OCD catastrophe because it's not exactly in synch with the wall clock.

[tradephoric]

I put together a list of dawn/dusk times for the top 20 metro regions in America.  I wanted to consider the lighting effects that winter DST would have on early birds (wake at 05:00, go to bed at 21:00) and night owls (wake at 08:00, go to bed at midnight).  Running DST during the winter greatly minimizes the total minutes Awake in Darkness (AID) and the minutes Sleeping in Light (SIL) compared to standard time.





*The early bird in all 20 metro regions is never sleeping in light (SIL) regardless if it's running DST or Standard time.  OTOH, night owls are sleeping in light (SIL) in all 20 metro regions when running Standard time during the winter.

*Detroit would experience the latest dawn out of the top 20 metro regions if the nation observed DST during the winter.  The dawn would begin in Detroit at 8:26AM.

[02 Park Ave]

Perhaps a bird clock should not be changed for DST.  I have a grandfather clock and also a table clock manufactured in the nineteenth century.  Both require weekly winding.  I no longer change them.  They are on standard time year round.  Back when I did change them, the more difficult operation was going back to standard time in the autumn.  They did not keep good time after that.

[vdeane]

The stove and microwave tend not to be able to drift to the degree as my other clocks can due to power outages.  I don't know why someone hasn't yet invented stoves or microwaves that don't lose their time when the power goes out.

Because we need something to hate just to vent that feeling?
I specifically hate clock on my stove which keeps time during the power outage - but it does not advance while there is no power. If power goes out at 10.00 and comes back at 10.15, damn thing is 15 minutes late until I reset it.

I don't get long-duration outages often.  Mostly it's just the ones that last for a second or two - long enough that I need to turn the computer on and set the clocks again, but not long enough for the living room clock (which has the same issue) to be noticeably off.

[webny99]

The problem with the permanent DST theory is that many night owls (like myself) have to get up before 8AM regardless of whether it meshes with our preferences.

It's easy to stay up well past dusk. It's hard to get up well before dawn. As such, late winter sunrises are counterproductive. I'm going to stay up past sunset year-round, and that's not a problem - that's how I like it. Trying to align the sun with my preferred schedule, on the other hand, is a problem, because it would reinforce my owlish habits and make me late for work.

[hbelkins]

Daylight really has no impact on when I wake up. There are really only two things that determine when I get up -- an alarm clock or my bladder.

[vdeane]

It's also worth noting that Lark/Owl preferences are based relative to the Sun, not the clock.  One's body clock doesn't care what number is currently displayed on some device; it resets based on sunrise.  Thus, moving the clock doesn't align the Sun closer to Owl-preferred times, because the Owl-preferred (clock) times will just shift if you do.  It does, however, move society to be more in line with Lark-preferred (solar) times.

The problem with the permanent DST theory is that many night owls (like myself) have to get up before 8AM regardless of whether it meshes with our preferences.

It's easy to stay up well past dusk. It's hard to get up well before dawn. As such, late winter sunrises are counterproductive. I'm going to stay up past sunset year-round, and that's not a problem - that's how I like it. Trying to align the sun with my preferred schedule, on the other hand, is a problem, because it would reinforce my owlish habits and make me late for work.

Definitely.  It would be nice if I had the luxury of sleeping in until 8!  That said, most office jobs favor Larks, not Owls.

Daylight really has no impact on when I wake up. There are really only two things that determine when I get up -- an alarm clock or my bladder.

I have days where I'm so tired that I instinctively hit the snooze button even without waking up.  At least that's what I assume happens, since I have no other explanation for why I wake up at one of the snooze increments with no memory of having dealt with the alarm earlier.

[jeffandnicole]

I have days where I'm so tired that I instinctively hit the snooze button even without waking up.  At least that's what I assume happens, since I have no other explanation for why I wake up at one of the snooze increments with no memory of having dealt with the alarm earlier.

Hear hear - this morning was one of them for me. 

Worse...when I hit the off button with no memory of it. 

[tradephoric]

I put together a list of dawn/dusk times for the top 20 metro regions in America.  I wanted to consider the lighting effects that winter DST would have on early birds (wake at 05:00, go to bed at 21:00) and night owls (wake at 08:00, go to bed at midnight).  Running DST during the winter greatly minimizes the total minutes Awake in Darkness (AID) and the minutes Sleeping in Light (SIL) compared to standard time.

If you keep the definition of the night owl the same (wake at 8:00, goes to bed at midnight), the early bird would have to wake up at 01:00 and go to sleep at 17:00 before standard time in the winter would minimize the total minutes Awake In Darkness (AID) and minutes Sleeping in Light (SIL) compared to DST.  Conversely, if you kept the definition of the early bird the same (wake at 05:00, go to bed at 21:00), the night owl would have to wake up at 11:00 and go to bed at 03:00 before standard time in the winter would minimize the AID and SIL minutes.  The point is under reasonable waking hour definitions, year-round DST would do a much better job at maximizing the waking hours of sunlight American's receive in the winter.

I did the same analysis for the Summer Solstice and you get much the same results.  DST drastically reduces the minutes American's are Awake in Darkness (AID) or Sleeping in Light (SIL) compared to standard time.

[tradephoric]

*The early bird in all 20 metro regions is never sleeping in light (SIL) regardless if it's running DST or Standard time. 

I wanted to highlight the point at which an early bird would start to Sleep in Light (SIL) during the winter.  The early birds who wake up at 03:03 and go to bed at 19:03 would then start to be sleeping in light for 1 minute, since the dusk would end in Tampa at 19:04 running DST.  Only at that point does Standard Time in the winter minimize the cumulative SIL and AID numbers for the early birds.  But short of people who wake up before 3:03AM, Daylight Saving Time in the winter would only increase the amount of daylight night owls get during their waking hours while having no impact on the SIL and AID numbers of the early birds.

[english si]

DST drastically reduces the minutes American's are Awake in Darkness (AID) or Sleeping in Light (SIL) compared to standard time.

The problem isn't the raw AID or SIL figures, but when and what they are: morning or evening. AID in the morning is the night owl's worst enemy, whereas SIL in the morning is the night owl's best friend. Likewise SIL in the evening is a little problem for night owls, whereas AID in the evening is little problem for night owls.

A night owl won't wake up at 8am if they are awake in the dark at that point. Also, while a night owl might want to wake up at 8am (or later), they often can't and have to be up earlier, increasing their AID in the morning in winter.

[kalvado]

DST drastically reduces the minutes American's are Awake in Darkness (AID) or Sleeping in Light (SIL) compared to standard time.

The problem isn't the raw AID or SIL figures, but when and what they are: morning or evening. AID in the morning is the night owl's worst enemy, whereas SIL in the morning is the night owl's best friend. Likewise SIL in the evening is a little problem for night owls, whereas AID in the evening is little problem for night owls.

A night owl won't wake up at 8am if they are awake in the dark at that point. Also, while a night owl might want to wake up at 8am (or later), they often can't and have to be up earlier, increasing their AID in the morning in winter.

On the other hand, evening AID in winter is almost a given - and not that big of a problem for anyone. Already awake, lights/TV/whatnot is on...

[english si]

On the other hand

Not particularly - it's an extension of what I say about night owls and AID in the evening - that AID in the evening isn't really a problem.

Incidentially, just over halfway between equinox and solstice (I know day length is decelerating), civil twilight ending at just after 9 meant it wasn't dark ~45 minutes ago. Surely that's late enough? There's 7 weeks of day length increasing still to come and it feels as if DST is more about stopping too-early dawns (currently sun up at 0530, with twilight extending before that). Nautical twilight has just now ended at about 10, and will return in 6 hours (Astronomical twilight still has an hour to go, and will return at 3am - however it's pretty meaningless as its dark anyway)

Currently, I'm waking up naturally around half 7 currently (if the weather isn't grey, then earlier) after about two hours SIL, whereas in winter getting up at 9 with only an hour SIL was a chore and I was far less refreshed. Bedtime is about the same late hour either way.

[webny99]

It's also worth noting that Lark/Owl preferences are based relative to the Sun, not the clock.  One's body clock doesn't care what number is currently displayed on some device; it resets based on sunrise.  Thus, moving the clock doesn't align the Sun closer to Owl-preferred times, because the Owl-preferred (clock) times will just shift if you do.  It does, however, move society to be more in line with Lark-preferred (solar) times.

Yeah, you basically nailed the explanation of why moving the clock to favor owls is counterproductive.
Owls like sleeping in light and being awake in the dark. We don't want those time periods minimized. Adopting winter DST only makes things worse for the larks, while the supposed benefit to owls isn't really a benefit at all.

[tradephoric]

There seems to be enough legislators who are seriously questioning the antiquated practice of changing our clocks twice a year, now the question becomes what time to stick with.  I think that answer is obvious.  Have you ever met someone from Boston say "damn it, I wish dawn started at 3:32AM during the summer, because dawn starting at 4:32AM is just too damn late!" .  Similarly, what golfer in Minneapolis is saying "damn it, I wish it was already pitch dark out at 8:40PM, because I hate being able to play this extra round of golf after dinner!"   I don't hear anybody really complaining about DST during the summer.   None of the top 20 metro regions dawn/dusk times seem too out of wack. 

Now if we were on standard time year-round, dawn in LA would begin at 4:12AM and dusk would end at 7:36PM.  Imagine being the guy struggling through 2 hours of LA traffic after getting off their 9-5 job.  Dude finally gets home and has 36 minutes of daylight to enjoy.  Got outside chores to do after dinner?  Well I guess their weekend is shot. 

Now since daylight is so scarce in the winter and nobody will be happy regardless of what time is picked, shouldn't whatever time works best in the summer be chosen year round?  Obviously i believe most people would prefer DST time over standard time during the summer.  But it's important to note that individual states can opt out of DST and stay on standard-time.  That reason alone is why going to year-round DST makes so much more sense than abolishing DST completely (regardless if you think DST is actually better or not, because at least the individual states can decide for themselves and not have to be told what to do by the federal government).  No way in hell are states going to abolish DST. 

[kphoger]

Currently, I'm waking up naturally around half 7 currently

For those unfamiliar with British time-telling, this means 7:30.  In Germanic or Slavic countries, such a phrase would mean 6:30, but the Brits do it the other way around.

For those unfamiliar with American time-telling, this would be worded "half past 7".

[hotdogPi]

Year-round DST, as a concept, makes absolutely no sense. Just move one time zone over without DST, and you'll have the same effect.

[kphoger]

Year-round DST, as a concept, makes absolutely no sense. Just move one time zone over without DST, and you'll have the same effect.

Amen!

[US 89]

Year-round DST, as a concept, makes absolutely no sense. Just move one time zone over without DST, and you'll have the same effect.

Amen!

That's what Saskatchewan did (and also Iceland, I'm pretty sure), and it definitely makes more sense than trying to work out year-round DST.

The problem is that a lot of states in the US aren't necessarily in a good place to do this. Take Utah, for example. If Utah moved to year-round CST, in winter it would be one hour ahead of Colorado to the east (MST), but two hours ahead of Nevada to the west (PST).