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DST (2018)

Started by 02 Park Ave, February 08, 2018, 07:03:10 PM

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tradephoric

Quote from: kphoger on May 11, 2018, 02:07:18 PM
If we didn't have DST, then we wouldn't be setting our clocks an hour ahead in the spring before spring even begins.  So, for example, Wichita's current sunrise time of 6:22 AM would actually be 5:22 AM.  When my alarm goes off at 6:00, it would already be light outside and I'd be a lot more eager to get out of bed.

But by the summer solstice the sunrise in Wichita would be 5:07 AM without DST.  That may not sound too early, but keep in mind Wichita is on the western edge of Central Time and at a relatively southern latitude.   Consider the effects no DST would have on northern latitude city on the eastern edge of a time zone (ie. Boston).   The sun would rise in Boston at 4:07AM with dawn breaking at 3:32AM.  It would be even worse in Maine.... at the very northeastern edge of Maine the sun would rise at 3:36AM with dawn breaking at 2:56AM without DST.  That's too ridiculous and would guarantee Maine moving to Atlantic time (or at least petitioning the USDOT to do so). 


kphoger

Quote from: tradephoric on May 11, 2018, 02:41:34 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 11, 2018, 02:07:18 PM
If we didn't have DST, then we wouldn't be setting our clocks an hour ahead in the spring before spring even begins.  So, for example, Wichita's current sunrise time of 6:22 AM would actually be 5:22 AM.  When my alarm goes off at 6:00, it would already be light outside and I'd be a lot more eager to get out of bed.

But by the summer solstice the sunrise in Wichita would be 5:07 AM without DST.  That may not sound too early, but keep in mind Wichita is on the western edge of Central Time and at a relatively southern latitude.   Consider the effects no DST would have on northern latitude city on the eastern edge of a time zone (ie. Boston).   The sun would rise in Boston at 4:07AM with dawn breaking at 3:32AM.  It would be even worse in Maine.... at the very northeastern edge of Maine the sun would rise at 3:36AM with dawn breaking at 2:56AM without DST.  That's too ridiculous and would guarantee Maine moving to Atlantic time (or at least petitioning the USDOT to do so). 

Wichita isn't really on the western edge of the time zone.  I grew up in Atwood, KS, where dusk in June pushes 10:00 PM.  That was insane, and it was impossible to get to sleep on time in the summer.  Wichita is also not very far south.  The latitude midpoint between Brownsville (TX) and International Falls (MN) is actually about 30 miles south of Wichita.  Use Miami instead of Brownsville, and it gets pushed a few miles farther to the south.

A 5:07 AM sunrise would be awesome, frankly.  I've been in European cities when the sunrise was that early, and it was super easy to get up on time and go about your business.

Northern locales do seem to want DST more than southern locales.  Longer sunlight in the evening, after all, isn't all that appealing to people who deal with 110° heat in the summer–whereas longer sunlight in the evening is appealing to people who deal with 4:30 PM sunsets.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

tradephoric

Quote from: kphoger on May 11, 2018, 03:38:39 PM
Northern locales do seem to want DST more than southern locales.  Longer sunlight in the evening, after all, isn't all that appealing to people who deal with 110° heat in the summer–whereas longer sunlight in the evening is appealing to people who deal with 4:30 PM sunsets.

Great point.  That's probably a big reason why Arizona wants to stick with standard time.  Not to mention they probably don't mind being in sync with LA during the summer.  Arizona is also on the western edge of the timezone, so it's not entirely surprising that they pick standard time .  If permanent DST took hold i could see states like Michigan, Indiana, Utah, and Idaho joining Arizona on standard time (or at least debating it in their legislators).  The Dakotas are kind of wacky, because they already have the time-zone splitting the state in the middle.. but the Eastern half of the Dakotas might want to be on standard time as well. 

kphoger

Quote from: tradephoric on May 11, 2018, 04:06:01 PM
That's probably a big reason why Arizona wants to stick with standard time.

Tell someone in Phoenix you'll give them more sunlight hours to go have fun outside in July.  Record their reaction.  I want to see it.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

kalvado

Quote from: kphoger on May 11, 2018, 04:10:22 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on May 11, 2018, 04:06:01 PM
That's probably a big reason why Arizona wants to stick with standard time.

Tell someone in Phoenix you'll give them more sunlight hours to go have fun outside in July.  Record their reaction.  I want to see it.
Too weak gun control laws in AZ for even planning such an experiment.

kphoger

But it's certainly not just the desert west that deals with heat.

If my wife and I want to take the kids for a walk in the summer–by the time the sun is low enough that we're not a hot and sweaty mess when we get back, the kids are already supposed to be in bed.  I remember a few years ago when we only had two kids, we would put them in a stroller and jog underneath the canal route here in Wichita.  We jogged under the highway because of the shade.  Even so, in the summer, that meant we sometimes started at the kids' bedtime and got them to bed like 1½ hours late–and my wife still often stripped down to her sports bra to jog in, because it was too hot for a tee shirt.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

vdeane

Quote from: kkt on May 11, 2018, 02:19:13 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 11, 2018, 02:07:18 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 09, 2018, 08:55:40 PM
Am I seriously the only person who finds changing the clocks to be more convenient than things like dragging myself out of bed in pitch darkness (even when it's light out, it's pretty hard) or trying to scrape ice off the windshield when the sun hasn't had a chance to warm things up?

But having to drag myself out of bed in pitch darkness is why I'm against changing the clocks.

If we didn't have DST, then we wouldn't be setting our clocks an hour ahead in the spring before spring even begins.  So, for example, Wichita's current sunrise time of 6:22 AM would actually be 5:22 AM.  When my alarm goes off at 6:00, it would already be light outside and I'd be a lot more eager to get out of bed.

Every year, just when I'm starting to enjoy it being a little bit light outside when my alarm goes off, that happiness gets yanked out from under me, precisely because DST makes us change our clocks.

DST doesn't even enter into it in the middle of winter, which is when the windshield ice is thick enough to even matter.  Because that's not when DST is.

That's a problem with the extension of the time DST is observed that started in 2007, not with the concept of DST in general.

Plus most proposals for ending the changing of the clocks are permanent DST rather than ending DST, so that wouldn't help either.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

02 Park Ave

Daylight encourages people to work; darkness symbolizes work is finished.  So getting more daylight in the morning encourages people to start working.  Earlier darkness should be welcomed as it indicates the day is done.
C-o-H

20160805

Quote from: 02 Park Ave on May 11, 2018, 08:40:46 PM
Daylight encourages people to work; darkness symbolizes work is finished.  So getting more daylight in the morning encourages people to start working.  Earlier darkness should be welcomed as it indicates the day is done.
Exactly.  And when it's still light out until a ridiculously late hour, there's no visual indication that the day is done, so it still feels like only 16:30 even when the clocks all say 21:00.  And there's no way in heck my body's going to let me sleep at 16:30.
Left for 5 months Oct 2018-Mar 2019 due to arguing in the DST thread.
Tried coming back Mar 2019.
Left again Jul 2019 due to more arguing.

Road Hog

Truth be told, there are certain times in the year where I would prefer driving to work before dawn. There's an easterly component to my driving and it completely sucks having the sunrise blinding me.

tradephoric

#610
Quote from: 20160805 on May 12, 2018, 09:43:55 AM
Quote from: 02 Park Ave on May 11, 2018, 08:40:46 PM
Daylight encourages people to work; darkness symbolizes work is finished.  So getting more daylight in the morning encourages people to start working.  Earlier darkness should be welcomed as it indicates the day is done.
Exactly.  And when it's still light out until a ridiculously late hour, there's no visual indication that the day is done, so it still feels like only 16:30 even when the clocks all say 21:00.  And there's no way in heck my body's going to let me sleep at 16:30.

It sounds like you guys are promoting DRT - "daylight reduction time".  Seeing that 48 out of 50 states observe DST, it appears most of the nation wants more daylight to extend later into their summer evenings.  Personally, i don't want it to be dark at 6PM when i get off work in the summer and anybody who does is a "nut job" to me.  No offense. 

hotdogPi

Quote from: tradephoric on May 14, 2018, 07:47:28 AM
Quote from: 20160805 on May 12, 2018, 09:43:55 AM
Quote from: 02 Park Ave on May 11, 2018, 08:40:46 PM
Daylight encourages people to work; darkness symbolizes work is finished.  So getting more daylight in the morning encourages people to start working.  Earlier darkness should be welcomed as it indicates the day is done.
Exactly.  And when it's still light out until a ridiculously late hour, there's no visual indication that the day is done, so it still feels like only 16:30 even when the clocks all say 21:00.  And there's no way in heck my body's going to let me sleep at 16:30.

It sounds like you guys are promoting DRT - "daylight reduction time".  Seeing that 48 out of 50 states observe DST, it appears most of the nation wants more daylight to extend later into their summer evenings.  Personally, i don't want it to be dark at 6PM when i get off work in the summer and anybody who does is a "nut job" to me.  No offense.

Even without DST, dark at 6 PM in the summer is impossible unless you live in one of the few places where solar noon is before 12:00 and it's almost autumn, and even then, it will be mostly but not completely dark.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

tradephoric

Quote from: 1 on May 14, 2018, 08:34:36 AM
Even without DST, dark at 6 PM in the summer is impossible unless you live in one of the few places where solar noon is before 12:00 and it's almost autumn, and even then, it will be mostly but not completely dark.

That's why i said they were proposing Daylight "Reduction" Time.  The sun would set even an hour before standard time.  No thanks.

english si

Quote from: tradephoric on May 14, 2018, 07:47:28 AMIt sounds like you guys are promoting DRT - "daylight reduction time".
That's a massive misnomer. They are no more proposing reducing the amount of daylight than the UK campaign to move to CET 'Lighter Longer' (and even selling it on a lie, they fail miserably) are proposing lengthening the amount of daylight. Daylight Savings makes sense as a name - you save some daylight in the morning to spend in the evening.

It's all tweaking the clock to use the same amount of daylight a different way. Perhaps you can call it 'Daylight Spending' - spending an extra hour of daylight (vs now in summer, where it is saved) in the mornings rather than saving it to use in the evening.
QuotePersonally, i don't want it to be dark at 6PM when i get off work in the summer
Move north then! Get an earlier shift. Other BS that people have said to people complaining about dark winter mornings swapped round. (subtext that this issue of yours is a sign of your moral and mental failing and you need to buck your ideas up...) </sarcasm>

Note that their complaints were 9pm sunsets being too late, not the lack of 6pm ones. Since DST started, I'm certainly regularly going "hang on, it's 5pm, I thought it was earlier".

I agree with you that DST is generally a useful thing, but they have a point that late sunsets are problematic. Personally I think light at 9pm is preferable to light at 4am (using London day lengths), but it's clearly the case that both have problems and neither have benefits. At my latitude, DST makes little sense in summer because the evenings have enough light without saving an hour from the morning to use in the evening. We keep DST, despite it bordering on being too much day in the pm, as it's easier than changing clocks again and we don't need the sun in the morning as we have enough there.
Quoteand anybody who does is a "nut job" to me.  No offense.
Being a called a "nut job" by someone bonkers enough to want 8am sunrises is a compliment. No offense.
Quote from: tradephoric on May 14, 2018, 08:42:19 AMThe sun would set even an hour before standard time.  No thanks.
Where did they propose that? I don't see any 'daylight borrowing' being proposed!

But lets say they are doing that - how is reducing summer pm daylight any more a reduction of daylight from these campaigns to reducing winter am daylight that you so love? Either you are stupid and actually think that changing the clocks changes the amount of daylight, or you are slandering the idea in an attempt to discredit because you cannot provide a genuine argument against it...

tradephoric

Quote from: english si on May 14, 2018, 08:59:45 AM
Being a called a "nut job" by someone bonkers enough to want 8am sunrises is a compliment. No offense.

In Dolly Parton's America, we work from 9 to 5.  I don't see how 8AM sunrises during the winter are that unreasonable.  Get up when the sun rises at 8AM and have an hour to get ready and head to work.  If it takes you longer than an hour to get to work, then you deserve to be waking up in pitch darkness... you little snowflake. 

Again, take a look at the dawn times for the top 20 metro regions in America during the winter solstice if the nation observed year-round DST.  The dawn begins before 8AM in many of the metros... PERFECT.  Before you respond just watch yourself, claiming that Dolly Parton is wrong would be blasphemy. 


kj3400

Please don't be so presumptuous as to claim everyone works 9 to 5. I couldn't care less what time the sun comes up or goes down as I wake up long after it has risen and get home long after it sets.
Call me Kenny/Kenneth. No, seriously.

webny99

Quote from: tradephoric on May 14, 2018, 11:44:30 AM
In Dolly Parton's America, we work from 9 to 5.  I don't see how 8AM sunrises during the winter are that unreasonable.  Get up when the sun rises at 8AM and have an hour to get ready and head to work.

I don't know anyone who works from 9 to 5. A 9:00 start time is actually quite late; the average start time is probably around 8:00. I work 7:30 to 4:30 (a 9-hour day, which is also more typical). Because of this, in the winter, it's important that solar noon is as near as possible to actual noon. In summer, that matters a lot less, hence DST for people to enjoy the evening daylight.

Further to that, it's foolish to try to minimize Awake in Dark and Sleep in Light for night owls... we LIKE those things.

Road Hog

I think 9-to-5 is more normal in the Eastern Time Zone where everything is shifted an hour ahead relative to Central. In the Central, 8-to-4 is typical (or more likely 8-5 with a one-hour lunch).

Probably 9-to-5 is normal in the Pacific zone as well, because their TV prime time starts at 8 p.m. local, just like in the East.

english si

Quote from: tradephoric on May 14, 2018, 11:44:30 AMI don't see how 8AM sunrises during the winter are that unreasonable.
I have them every year for about a month - I really wouldn't recommend them. It would be perhaps justifiable if there was something fruitful like a couple of hours of sunlight after work to do a genuinely outdoors activity like play a sport*, but even as far south as Miami you only get 90 minutes of light after 5pm.

But to want them with the daylight robbery time (stealing an hour of sunlight needed in the morning to put it in the evening) that you so like, for the petty reason of wanting to eat an evening meal outside in winter, is totally unreasonable.

Eating outside year-round is a lifestyle choice, being permanently sleep-deprived in winter is a health issue.

*though I used to play field hockey once a week, at 8pm, even in winter - flood lights exist!
QuoteIf it takes you longer than an hour to get to work, then you deserve to be waking up in pitch darkness... you little snowflake.
Not sure whether joking, or genuinely a hateful person...

The reason Dolly's day was 9-5 (ie lopsided wrt noon) is that we need pre-work morning sun far more than post-work evening sun.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: Road Hog on May 14, 2018, 12:37:00 PM
I think 9-to-5 is more normal in the Eastern Time Zone where everything is shifted an hour ahead relative to Central. In the Central, 8-to-4 is typical (or more likely 8-5 with a one-hour lunch).

Probably 9-to-5 is normal in the Pacific zone as well, because their TV prime time starts at 8 p.m. local, just like in the East.

If you're working a 40 hour work week, 9 - 5 is technically illegal.  That's 8 hours a day.  Federal and State Laws require at least a 30 minute lunch period.

Even if you don't actually take a lunch, they're required to schedule it.

Also, due to congestion issues, 9 - 5 would put incredible stresses on the road network for a short period of time.  Most people start work between 7 & 10, and end work between 3:30 and 7.

kalvado

Quote from: Road Hog on May 14, 2018, 12:37:00 PM
I think 9-to-5 is more normal in the Eastern Time Zone where everything is shifted an hour ahead relative to Central. In the Central, 8-to-4 is typical (or more likely 8-5 with a one-hour lunch).

Probably 9-to-5 is normal in the Pacific zone as well, because their TV prime time starts at 8 p.m. local, just like in the East.
I heard an opposite thing about pacific - they tend to be early in the day. For companies in CA I deal with, tech support hours on the order of 7AM-3PM PST are not uncommon.
There was actually a big article (NYT?) a few years ago where they argued that single time zone  across US is quite realistic as many businesses align their hour with NYC anyway.

vdeane

I only know one person who works 9-5.  I find that when people say "9-5" they really mean 8-5, since lunch isn't included in an 8-hour day, it's in addition to eight hours worked.  Plus it's common for people to start earlier.  Where my Dad works, most people are at their desk by 7!

I'm having a hard time imagining how one could go from rolling out of bed to getting to work in just an hour.  Perhaps tradephoric should try becoming a girl to see how the other side lives.  I know I could save a ton of time if I didn't have to pluck my eyebrows, shampoo and condition my hair separably, dry my hair, etc., but even then, that's still only getting down to an hour not including commuting.  What does trade do, skip breakfast?
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: vdeane on May 14, 2018, 01:19:01 PM
What does trade do, skip breakfast?

He probably flies thru 20 roundabouts never needing to stop at a red light.

Rothman

Amongst my co-workers here in the Northeast, 9-5 is actually a late start. 
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Scott5114

Quote from: vdeane on May 14, 2018, 01:19:01 PM
I'm having a hard time imagining how one could go from rolling out of bed to getting to work in just an hour.  Perhaps tradephoric should try becoming a girl to see how the other side lives.  I know I could save a ton of time if I didn't have to pluck my eyebrows, shampoo and condition my hair separably, dry my hair, etc., but even then, that's still only getting down to an hour not including commuting.  What does trade do, skip breakfast?

I cut it fantastically close by waking up at 1pm, leaving the house by 1:50pm, and arriving at work at 2:30, and that's about the best I can do. I shower and everything before I go to bed. If I were to wake up at 1:30, I would still be half-asleep by the time I got in the car.

There's my odd-ball schedule again. Again, I suggest that rather than make adjustments to the clock, if people are having trouble getting enough sleep, maybe change industries to one that favors second-shift work. (It is not just customer-service work that we need people on 2nd for. We do have Excel data-monkeys in the back working 2nd just in case something goes awry with the promotions.)
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef



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