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Author Topic: Wisconsin notes  (Read 787961 times)

thspfc

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #3975 on: March 15, 2023, 11:11:24 PM »

As is, 39/90/94 isnít really for local traffic. Too far out, and basically only interchanges with other limited-access roads. As a result, that local traffic is pushed onto Stoughton Rd.

Iím sure if WISDOT could redo things from scratch, they would build 39/90/94 closer to Stoughton Rdís current alignment than the Interstatesí current alignment. That would eliminate the need for 1) a limited-access Stoughton Rd, and 2) the WI-30 connector freeway. I imagine it being a slightly longer version of I-41 in Green Bay. Separated C/D lanes between close exits, allowing for more interchanges with access to city streets.
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peterj920

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #3976 on: March 16, 2023, 12:33:36 AM »

As is, 39/90/94 isnít really for local traffic. Too far out, and basically only interchanges with other limited-access roads. As a result, that local traffic is pushed onto Stoughton Rd.

Iím sure if WISDOT could redo things from scratch, they would build 39/90/94 closer to Stoughton Rdís current alignment than the Interstatesí current alignment. That would eliminate the need for 1) a limited-access Stoughton Rd, and 2) the WI-30 connector freeway. I imagine it being a slightly longer version of I-41 in Green Bay. Separated C/D lanes between close exits, allowing for more interchanges with access to city streets.

I donít think WISDOT would re-do the interstate alignment. I think theyíre happy that I-39/I-90/I-94 doesnít carry local traffic because the interstate carries so much traffic and local traffic would cause serious congestion. US 51/Stoughton Rd keeps the interstate less congested.

However, the lack of interchanges on the far east side does make driving frustrating.
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SEWIGuy

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #3977 on: March 16, 2023, 08:31:56 AM »

Why would anyone expect movements from Stoughton Road to the Beltline to be free-flowing? Thereís a reason why theyíre partially in the works for Verona Road: because they would complete US 151 so that it is consistently free-flowing from Dubuque to Madison. Traffic lights are consistent with the type of roadway US 51 is in that area.

Also, providing a US-151 free flowing through route to go to Dubuque is at best a secondary reason for the idea of a free flowing interchange at the Beltline and Verona Road.  The vast majority of traffic that goes through that interchange is local - people commuting to and from Verona and points west.
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thspfc

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #3978 on: March 16, 2023, 11:05:06 AM »

Why would anyone expect movements from Stoughton Road to the Beltline to be free-flowing? Thereís a reason why theyíre partially in the works for Verona Road: because they would complete US 151 so that it is consistently free-flowing from Dubuque to Madison. Traffic lights are consistent with the type of roadway US 51 is in that area.

Also, providing a US-151 free flowing through route to go to Dubuque is at best a secondary reason for the idea of a free flowing interchange at the Beltline and Verona Road.  The vast majority of traffic that goes through that interchange is local - people commuting to and from Verona and points west.
Yeah, WISDOT isnít making decisions based on arbitrary stuff like a no-stop drive between Madison and Dubuque. On a large scale, that doesnít matter. What matters are the actual traffic conditions on US-151.
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The Ghostbuster

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #3979 on: March 16, 2023, 01:43:22 PM »

I have a feeling that the previously-proposed Stage 3 upgrade of Verona Rd. (https://projects.511wi.gov/veronard/wp-content/uploads/sites/143/ss-2012nov13.pdf) will likely never happen. Verona Rd. is likely as upgraded as it is going to get. Also, I don't think Stoughton Rd. needs to be upgraded to be free-flow throughout the entire corridor (which seems like overkill to me, considering Interstates 39/90/94 are just a couple of miles to the east). The previously-proposed Alternative B (https://wisconsindot.gov/Documents/projects/by-region/sw/51/map-propalts.pdf) with additional lanes in each direction will probably be enough of an upgrade to the US 51 corridor.
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mgk920

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #3980 on: March 16, 2023, 01:45:56 PM »

As is, 39/90/94 isnít really for local traffic. Too far out, and basically only interchanges with other limited-access roads. As a result, that local traffic is pushed onto Stoughton Rd.

Iím sure if WISDOT could redo things from scratch, they would build 39/90/94 closer to Stoughton Rdís current alignment than the Interstatesí current alignment. That would eliminate the need for 1) a limited-access Stoughton Rd, and 2) the WI-30 connector freeway. I imagine it being a slightly longer version of I-41 in Green Bay. Separated C/D lanes between close exits, allowing for more interchanges with access to city streets.

I donít think WISDOT would re-do the interstate alignment. I think theyíre happy that I-39/I-90/I-94 doesnít carry local traffic because the interstate carries so much traffic and local traffic would cause serious congestion. US 51/Stoughton Rd keeps the interstate less congested.

However, the lack of interchanges on the far east side does make driving frustrating.

Yea, but that ship sailed at least 60 years ago and before then (before the Interstate Highway Act), there were proposals (plans?) to extend the cross-country ticket-turnpike (Indiana Toll Road) through Chicago and onward at least to the MSP area, which would have served and bypassed Madison.  Stoughton Rd WOULD have been the east Beltline under that scenario.  The original stated purpose of the Interstates as to bypass major population centers to mainly serve cross-country through traffic and not local traffic, so I do agree with the light access to the existing I-39/90/94 corridor in Madison.  Yes, I can also see the existing Beltline becoming and 'odd' 3DI.

Mike
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dvferyance

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #3981 on: March 28, 2023, 09:10:43 PM »

As is, 39/90/94 isnít really for local traffic. Too far out, and basically only interchanges with other limited-access roads. As a result, that local traffic is pushed onto Stoughton Rd.

Iím sure if WISDOT could redo things from scratch, they would build 39/90/94 closer to Stoughton Rdís current alignment than the Interstatesí current alignment. That would eliminate the need for 1) a limited-access Stoughton Rd, and 2) the WI-30 connector freeway. I imagine it being a slightly longer version of I-41 in Green Bay. Separated C/D lanes between close exits, allowing for more interchanges with access to city streets.

I donít think WISDOT would re-do the interstate alignment. I think theyíre happy that I-39/I-90/I-94 doesnít carry local traffic because the interstate carries so much traffic and local traffic would cause serious congestion. US 51/Stoughton Rd keeps the interstate less congested.

However, the lack of interchanges on the far east side does make driving frustrating.

Yea, but that ship sailed at least 60 years ago and before then (before the Interstate Highway Act), there were proposals (plans?) to extend the cross-country ticket-turnpike (Indiana Toll Road) through Chicago and onward at least to the MSP area, which would have served and bypassed Madison.  Stoughton Rd WOULD have been the east Beltline under that scenario.  The original stated purpose of the Interstates as to bypass major population centers to mainly serve cross-country through traffic and not local traffic, so I do agree with the light access to the existing I-39/90/94 corridor in Madison.  Yes, I can also see the existing Beltline becoming and 'odd' 3DI.

Mike
Yeah just what we need a fifth route sharing the same pavement.
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SEWIGuy

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #3982 on: March 29, 2023, 08:46:51 AM »

I just don't see WIDOT being all that interested in 3dis at all so I think we are safe from a fifth highway on the corridor. (Although the corridor DID have five highways in the past before WI-13 was truncated.)

Anyway, I think if WIDOT knew then what it knows now, it would have kept the interstate right where it is but would have developed an exit at Buckeye Road (County AB) in between I-94 and the Beltline.  I think it would have helped reduce congestion on the US-51 / Beltline interchange because a significant amount of traffic from Monona and the east side of Madison has to use the US-51 corridor to get to the interstate.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2023, 09:17:39 AM by SEWIGuy »
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The Ghostbuster

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #3983 on: March 29, 2023, 11:11:00 AM »

There won't be any new 3dis in Wisconsin (or new 2dis for that matter). Interstates 535, 794 and 894 are all the 3dis that will likely ever exist. I certainly would not want one on the Beltline or STH-30.
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hobsini2

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #3984 on: March 29, 2023, 11:51:06 AM »

There won't be any new 3dis in Wisconsin (or new 2dis for that matter). Interstates 535, 794 and 894 are all the 3dis that will likely ever exist. I certainly would not want one on the Beltline or STH-30.
I could see Wis 30 being a 3di because of its access between I-39/90/94 and Downtown. Not likely but I could see it.
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Molandfreak

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #3985 on: March 29, 2023, 12:07:23 PM »

Yawn. Another ďWisDOT has a vendetta against 3DIsĒ hyperbolic conversation. How quickly can we forget that two numbering considerations for the I-41 corridor were 3DI numbers less than a decade ago?

Itís about a lack of demand, not an imaginary hatred the DOT has for them.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2023, 12:09:31 PM by Molandfreak »
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SEWIGuy

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #3986 on: March 29, 2023, 12:31:54 PM »

Yawn. Another ďWisDOT has a vendetta against 3DIsĒ hyperbolic conversation. How quickly can we forget that two numbering considerations for the I-41 corridor were 3DI numbers less than a decade ago?

Itís about a lack of demand, not an imaginary hatred the DOT has for them.


No one said WIDOT "hated" 3dis. I said that they don't seem to have interest in them - given that there are multiple interstate compatible freeways in Wisconsin that could be signed as such.  Your "lack of demand" statement isn't really accurate - WI-30, Beltline, US-12 between I-43 and the IL line, US-45 to West Bend, etc.
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Molandfreak

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #3987 on: March 29, 2023, 12:48:32 PM »

Yawn. Another ďWisDOT has a vendetta against 3DIsĒ hyperbolic conversation. How quickly can we forget that two numbering considerations for the I-41 corridor were 3DI numbers less than a decade ago?

Itís about a lack of demand, not an imaginary hatred the DOT has for them.

No one said WIDOT "hated" 3dis. I said that they don't seem to have interest in them - given that there are multiple interstate compatible freeways in Wisconsin that could be signed as such.  Your "lack of demand" statement isn't really accurate - WI-30, Beltline, US-12 between I-43 and the IL line, US-45 to West Bend, etc.
This is a rabbit hole weíve been down dozens of times before. The lack of demand is from local authorities and focus groups who, to the best of my knowledge, havenít asked WisDOT to give those corridors interstate designations. I-41 happened because there was enough fanfare from local authorities to make it happen.

The fact that non-interstate freeways exist in Wisconsin proves nothing. Iím talking about the designations, not the freeways.
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mgk920

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #3988 on: March 29, 2023, 01:47:05 PM »

In reality, I too see little interest ( NOT hatred nor ambivalence!) in WisDOT for the idea of designating any new I-routes in the state. It does not serve a useful purpose for them.  That said, IMHO, the most likely next future new I-route in Wisconsin is 441, but certainly not until after the currently planned six lane upgrades to I-41 are completed at the very earliest (7-8 years minimum) and any few blocks long extension of 535 when the Blatnik bridge is replaced notwithstanding.

Mike
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SEWIGuy

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #3989 on: March 29, 2023, 02:02:42 PM »

Yawn. Another ďWisDOT has a vendetta against 3DIsĒ hyperbolic conversation. How quickly can we forget that two numbering considerations for the I-41 corridor were 3DI numbers less than a decade ago?

Itís about a lack of demand, not an imaginary hatred the DOT has for them.

No one said WIDOT "hated" 3dis. I said that they don't seem to have interest in them - given that there are multiple interstate compatible freeways in Wisconsin that could be signed as such.  Your "lack of demand" statement isn't really accurate - WI-30, Beltline, US-12 between I-43 and the IL line, US-45 to West Bend, etc.
This is a rabbit hole weíve been down dozens of times before. The lack of demand is from local authorities and focus groups who, to the best of my knowledge, havenít asked WisDOT to give those corridors interstate designations. I-41 happened because there was enough fanfare from local authorities to make it happen.

The fact that non-interstate freeways exist in Wisconsin proves nothing. Iím talking about the designations, not the freeways.


I think you are correct that if West Bend were insistent on US-45 being a 3di, and applied pressure on WIDOT to do so, a 3di would happen.  But WIDOT isn't going out of its way to designate interstate compatible freeways as 3dis. 

Both statements can be true.
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thspfc

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #3990 on: March 29, 2023, 05:16:51 PM »

WI-441 is a classic beltway 3di. Unless thereís Interstate requirements it doesnít meet (which seems unlikely), the only reason itís not is that WISDOT doesnít feel like making it official.
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skluth

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #3991 on: March 29, 2023, 05:41:57 PM »

You can make the same arguments for WI 172 (between I-41 and I-43) as you can for WI 441, and that part of WI 172 has been interstate compliant for its entire existence. There's been no outcry from anyone I know in Green Bay to make it an interstate.
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GeekJedi

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #3992 on: March 30, 2023, 06:29:41 PM »

WI-441 is a classic beltway 3di. Unless thereís Interstate requirements it doesnít meet (which seems unlikely), the only reason itís not is that WISDOT doesnít feel like making it official.

I totally agree. WisDOT is generally not in the habit of playing with highway numbering for the sake of following convention. I don't ever see WI-441 become I-441 unless a local jurisdiction specifically asks for it. There's just no reason to do so.
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SSOWorld

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #3993 on: March 31, 2023, 07:52:09 AM »

it's HWY 441 to you.
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JoePCool14

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #3994 on: March 31, 2023, 11:00:37 AM »

I will personally pledge $1 million of Jeff Bezos' money for WisDOT to change all WI-441 shields to I-441 shields.
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SEWIGuy

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #3995 on: March 31, 2023, 12:17:40 PM »

I will personally pledge $1 million of Jeff Bezos' money for WisDOT to change all WI-441 shields to I-441 shields.

Why?
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zzcarp

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #3996 on: March 31, 2023, 12:24:08 PM »

I will personally pledge $1 million of Jeff Bezos' money for WisDOT to change all WI-441 shields to I-441 shields.

Why?

As Milton Friedman said, ďNobody spends somebody elseís money as carefully as he spends his own."
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JoePCool14

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #3997 on: March 31, 2023, 01:29:30 PM »

I will personally pledge $1 million of Jeff Bezos' money for WisDOT to change all WI-441 shields to I-441 shields.

Why?

Red, white, and blue shields are cool.  :-D

Jokes aside, I do think it would be nice if it was recategorized as an Interstate, but I'm not going to fight for the death for it. It's more of a "would be nice" sort of thing.
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mgk920

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #3998 on: March 31, 2023, 02:51:39 PM »

I will personally pledge $1 million of Jeff Bezos' money for WisDOT to change all WI-441 shields to I-441 shields.

Why?

Red, white, and blue shields are cool.  :-D

Jokes aside, I do think it would be nice if it was recategorized as an Interstate, but I'm not going to fight for the death for it. It's more of a "would be nice" sort of thing.

Sort of mirroring the British style, 'WI 441 I'.

 :nod:

Mike
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dvferyance

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #3999 on: April 04, 2023, 05:17:59 PM »

There won't be any new 3dis in Wisconsin (or new 2dis for that matter). Interstates 535, 794 and 894 are all the 3dis that will likely ever exist. I certainly would not want one on the Beltline or STH-30.
With the exception of 441 I would agree. I think 172 would be eligible to be a 3di but I doubt it will ever happen. WI-30 is nowhere near interstate compatible and I would not even want a 3di on the beltline too many routes already exist there.
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