If I-45 were ever expanded

[Scott5114]

Towns notorious for speed traps often see their local economies diminish due to long distance travelers avoiding the route entirely.

When I drive from Tulsa to Dallas, I take I-44 and I-35 through OKC because it is a much more relaxed drive than 75/INT/69/75.  I don't avoid the direct route because of the speed trips so much, but because I hate slowing down and speeding up, and that road probably has 15 speed limit changes between McAlester and the Red River.  It's easier to just cruise at 75 and know the slowest speed limit you will encounter is 60 through OKC.

You know, this makes me wonder why the hell they sent the INT to Hugo instead of making it follow US-75 to Durant. Was there really that much traffic headed from Tulsa to Paris, Texas?

[NE2]

Dayum. The INT has barely 1/10 the traffic US 69-75 gets south of their junction.
http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/hqdiv/p-r-div/maps/aadt/2008/statemap.pdf
https://www.pikepass.com/PDF/Indian%20Nation%20Yearly%202008.pdf

[english si]

If I-45 gets extended to Tulsa/I-44/Kansas City, then surely it's totally legit to renumber I-35E as a 3di? After all both cities would have major, through, N-S I-x5 routes.

Though I guess Fort Worth would want an I-45 loop, given Dallas would have an I-35 one.

[Henry]

My idea:

I-45, US 75, US 69, I-40, I-540, I-49, I-29.

But you are aware that eventually the two pieces of I-49 will connect to each other. Maybe not in any of our lifetimes, but eventually.

[rte66man]

Towns notorious for speed traps often see their local economies diminish due to long distance travelers avoiding the route entirely.

When I drive from Tulsa to Dallas, I take I-44 and I-35 through OKC because it is a much more relaxed drive than 75/INT/69/75.  I don't avoid the direct route because of the speed trips so much, but because I hate slowing down and speeding up, and that road probably has 15 speed limit changes between McAlester and the Red River.  It's easier to just cruise at 75 and know the slowest speed limit you will encounter is 60 through OKC.

You know, this makes me wonder why the hell they sent the INT to Hugo instead of making it follow US-75 to Durant. Was there really that much traffic headed from Tulsa to Paris, Texas?

Politics

[Bobby5280]

Politics exactly.

Basically, it was the whole "let's build a turnpike to spur economic growth few people would visit otherwise" kind of thing. Back in the early 1990s the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority board and some politicians, such as then-Governor David Walters, were promoting two turnpike projects that made absolutely no logical sense to build. One project was a Duncan to Davis turnpike and the other was a Clinton to Snyder turnpike. IMHO even if those turnpikes were built they wouldn't spur a whole lot of economic development at all, much less see rising traffic counts from long distance travelers and truckers. They weren't exactly "roads to nowhere," but they would not have complemented the overall Interstate highway system if they were built. The Indian Nation Turnpike, going to Hugo, doesn't complement the overall Interstate highway system.

I remember one argument for the Clinton to Snyder turnpike: eastern Oklahoma has US-75 so western Oklahoma needs a comparable highway to make things "fair." Here's the problem with that: US-75 is a direct link between Dallas and Tulsa. It goes from a very big point A to a pretty big point B. US-75 from Dallas to McAlester is along a very major trucking route (which US-69 takes up to I-44 at Big Cabin). The US-183 corridor in Western Oklahoma serves nowhere near as many people. Clinton to Snyder turnpike proponents tried to characterize the US-183 corridor as a major Mexico to Canada route and alternative/bypass to I-35 and I-29. The truth is not many people are going to use US-183 for a really long distance trip unless that is the fastest route (very unlikely if you have to drive clear up into Canada). US-183 makes a lot of strange time-wasting turns as its spans farm properties and prairies.

If anymore turnpikes (or free limited access highways) are going to be built in Oklahoma they need to be built in corridors that would better serve the overall highway system.

It makes sense to upgrade US-69 from the Red River to Big Cabin, OK and even go so far as to call it I-45. There's probably enough traffic on US-75 between McAlester and Tulsa to justify an upgrade there.

I think there is a huge "spoke" missing from the Interstate highway system between Denver and Oklahoma City. A direct, diagonal Interstate between those two cities would work very much like I-44 does and create a valuable, high speed link for the Pacific Northwest and Deep South. A turnpike from Oklahoma City to Woodward could at least lay the groundwork for the longer distance route. I imagine a route going up into Kansas, halfway between Liberal & Garden City, to Kit Carson in Colorado and ending in at I-70 in Limon, CO.

Taking that a big farther, that diagonal Woodward to Oklahoma City turnpike could be extended farther Southeast toward Texarkana to tie into the developing I-49 corridor. Purcell, Ada, Atoka, Antlers and Idabel could be linked by the turnpike. It could extend into Arkansas and meet I-49 near Ashdown.

I'm not sure if there's enough traffic to justify a western extension of the Cimarron Turnpike through Enid and to Woodward. But it would be easier to justify if a Denver to Oklahoma City Interstate highway was ever built.

Anyway, those are turnpike ideas that actually make logical sense as it pertains to the whole Interstate highway system. It makes a lot more sense than building some 90 degree spur off of I-35 or I-40 way out in the boonies and going to another place in the boonies.

[NE2]

I think there is a huge "spoke" missing from the Interstate highway system between Denver and Oklahoma City.

This has always been missing. US 270 had to stairstep across southwestern Kansas: http://www.usends.com/mapguy/MapPgs/mapx70.htm

Nowadays I-135 probably carries much of this traffic, but US 270-412-287 is probably a good enough route for the truck trarffic it gets. The Oklahoma part of this is almost all 3+ lanes (the ODOT map shows 2 lanes with passing lane in blue) and US 287 in Colorado was recently rebuilt for high-speed traffic.

If SH 3 were rerouted between OKC and Watonga, this corridor would only have two numbers. (Or you could reroute and extend US 270, but would AASHTO approve the long overlap to Boise City?)

[bugo]

The Indian Nation Turnpike, going to Hugo, doesn't complement the overall Interstate highway system.

The segment north of McAlester is a part of the Tulsa-Dallas link and is an important part of the limited access highway system.  The part south to Hugo is not so much.

[bugo]

Taking that a big farther, that diagonal Woodward to Oklahoma City turnpike could be extended farther Southeast toward Texarkana to tie into the developing I-49 corridor. Purcell, Ada, Atoka, Antlers and Idabel could be linked by the turnpike. It could extend into Arkansas and meet I-49 near Ashdown.

A turnpike through the Ouachita Mountains?

[bugo]

Nowadays I-135 probably carries much of this traffic, but US 270-412-287 is probably a good enough route for the truck trarffic it gets. The Oklahoma part of this is almost all 3+ lanes (the ODOT map shows 2 lanes with passing lane in blue) and US 287 in Colorado was recently rebuilt for high-speed traffic.

The blue lines are not accurate.  For example, parts of US 412 between US 281 and US 60 is shown as 3 lanes.  In reality there are two relatively short 3 lane sections but most of the road is two lanes.

[NE2]

Taking that a big farther, that diagonal Woodward to Oklahoma City turnpike could be extended farther Southeast toward Texarkana to tie into the developing I-49 corridor. Purcell, Ada, Atoka, Antlers and Idabel could be linked by the turnpike. It could extend into Arkansas and meet I-49 near Ashdown.

Eh, is there's any demand for that corridor, just extend the Indian Nation from Hugo to New Boston TX. Drivers who want a shorter route can use SH 3 from Shawnee through Ada-Atoka.

[Bobby5280]

There isn't any demand on that corridor, above what OK-3 currently provides, right now for anything more than a 2 lane highway.

The situation could be different if an Interstate highway directly linking Denver and Oklahoma City existed. A Denver to Texarkana Interstate, running diagonally through Oklahoma (and OKC) would provide a direct route (via I-49) from the ports of New Orleans and that part of of the Gulf Coast to Denver and the Pacific Northwest.

Also this SE OK route, at the least the version of it I was imagining, would skirt the Southern edge of the Ouachita Mountains. The route wouldn't be without environmental concerns, such as passing to the North of Lake Hugo as it ran between Antlers and Idabel.

[NE2]

A Denver to Texarkana Interstate, running diagonally through Oklahoma (and OKC) would provide a direct route (via I-49) from the ports of New Orleans and that part of of the Gulf Coast to Denver and the Pacific Northwest.

It's doubtful that this would be more direct than US 287/I-30/I-49/I-10.

[Bobby5280]

It would be a more direct route, at least as long as the road alignment didn't take a bunch of the strange twists and turns being forced on the I-69 corridor. Traffic coming from Denver must drive straight South to Raton and then use US-64 and US-87 to Dumas, TX before picking up US-287 (also a mostly North-South route until it reaches Amarillo). Having family in the Colorado Springs and Denver areas I drive the "Ports to Plains" route regularly. It isn't very direct at all.

US-287 between Amarillo and Fort Worth is another one of those routes that might be justified into being upgraded to full Interstate standards due to all the heavy truck traffic on it. I don't think it's quite to the level of what I see on US-69 between Dallas and Big Cabin, OK, but it is quite a lot. Even if US-287 were to upgraded to "I-32," the link between Denver and Oklahoma City would remain as a very obvious missing part of the Interstate highway system. If the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority started proposing new turnpikes this corridor should be near the top of the list on what they should address.

[NE2]

It would be a more direct route, at least as long as the road alignment didn't take a bunch of the strange twists and turns being forced on the I-69 corridor.

Have you done the calculations? I've only done a few preliminary ones, but it looks like you'd need an assload of diagonals in all the right places.

[Bobby5280]

Starting from Limon, CO all the way to Oklahoma City the route would need to be diagonal, straight as possible, and a great deal of it new terrain, as opposed to upgrading existing roads. There are very few SE to NW diagonal routes in that part of the country. Anyone wanting to drive from Oklahoma City to Denver is stuck taking a lot of N-S and E-W routes and adding a lot of mileage to the trip. It's all mostly a grid out there. East of I-35 there's plenty of diagonal routes going SW to NE. I think at least one major SE to NW route should be built.

US-287/US-40 between Limon, CO and Kit Carson, CO is one of the few roads along that imaginary route that would make any sense to upgrade rather than build a new terrain route alongside. From there to at least Woodward, OK the route would have to be on an all new alignment. It would pass near Sublette, KS, passing halfway between Liberal and Garden City. Even though the route would miss those bigger towns the residents in those communities would still have a much faster link to Denver & Oklahoma City.

OK-3 SE of OKC is a mostly diagonal route, but any turnpike built from Purcell to E of Idabel would need to be on a new alignment, particularly as a toll road.

I'd be pretty happy if only the Denver to OKC link could ever be built. A Denver to Texarkana route is a much longer shot, but I still think it would make sense for the overall Interstate system. Another thing I'd like to see is I-44 extended to at least I-20 in Texas (via US-277 mostly).

Oklahoma City is already crisscrossed N-S & E-W by I-35 and I-40. It would be kind of cool if it was crisscrossed diagonally too. OKC is arguably the geographic center of the Interstate highway system. This concept would do even more to underscore that.

[leroys73]

The proposals to extend I-45 to KC via US69 or US75 to KC sound good. Maybe extend it to Tulsa via US75 and INT then run it straight north to junction with I-35 along US75. Maybe this was what was meant in an earlier post and I missed it.

I have always wanted to know why INT went to Hugo.   I just thought there was some big shots who lived in Tulsa and wanted a quick ride to Lake Hugo to go fishing, or make a drug run.   

I agree 100% that a turnpike in western OK running NS would be a waste. Being a former Okie and ridden on most of the NS routes out there several times, some very recent, they remind me of Nowhere Land. I don't remember even seeing an OHP on 183. I guess if they built one out there it would never have to be resurfaced because of over use.

When living in Lawton it was rumored at one time that I-44 would run to Altus. I guess the thinking was that it is an E-W interstate plus some dreaming in Altus.

[rte66man]

A Denver to Texarkana Interstate, running diagonally through Oklahoma (and OKC) would provide a direct route (via I-49) from the ports of New Orleans and that part of of the Gulf Coast to Denver and the Pacific Northwest.

It's doubtful that this would be more direct than US 287/I-30/I-49/I-10.

Maybe not, but you would be able to avoid the DFW metroplex. That plus the higher speed limits in rural areas would make it worthwhile for me.

[NE2]

A Denver to Texarkana Interstate, running diagonally through Oklahoma (and OKC) would provide a direct route (via I-49) from the ports of New Orleans and that part of of the Gulf Coast to Denver and the Pacific Northwest.

It's doubtful that this would be more direct than US 287/I-30/I-49/I-10.

Maybe not, but you would be able to avoid the DFW metroplex. That plus the higher speed limits in rural areas would make it worthwhile for me.

US 82 and US 69 around DFW is barely longer than through DFW.

[Bobby5280]

Here's another factor that would make a diagonal Texarkana-Oklahoma City-Denver Interstate highway worthwhile:
The Panama Canal.

A major upgrade to the Panama Canal is under construction and set for completion sometime in 2015 or 2016. Once the upgrade is complete all but the very largest class of container ships will be able to navigate the canal. That's going to lead to a pretty big increase in shipping business at Gulf Coast ports. In terms of shipping lane distance, New Orleans is the nearest, most direct American port to/from the Panama Canal. That will put more import/export traffic onto the I-49 corridor. This diagonal SE/NW Interstate route I'm thinking of would tap directly into the I-49 corridor.

[NE2]

In terms of shipping lane distance, New Orleans is the nearest, most direct American port to/from the Panama Canal. That will put more import/export traffic onto the I-49 corridor.

Since water transport is more efficient than road/rail, goods bound for Denver should dock at Houston, not New Orleans.

[Road Hog]

In terms of shipping lane distance, New Orleans is the nearest, most direct American port to/from the Panama Canal. That will put more import/export traffic onto the I-49 corridor.

Since water transport is more efficient than road/rail, goods bound for Denver should dock at Houston, not New Orleans.

Better yet, make the Arkansas River navigable to Pueblo. Just a short haul up I-25 from there.

[Brandon]

In terms of shipping lane distance, New Orleans is the nearest, most direct American port to/from the Panama Canal. That will put more import/export traffic onto the I-49 corridor.

Since water transport is more efficient than road/rail, goods bound for Denver should dock at Houston, not New Orleans.

Better yet, make the Arkansas River navigable to Pueblo. Just a short haul up I-25 from there.

Don't know if that can be done, but the river is navigable up to Muskogee, Oklahoma by barges.  Offload ships in New Orleans to barges that can go to Muskogee.

Of course, it may be easier to just have those barges go to Kansas City and use I-70 or the BNSF the rest of the way.

[texaskdog]

Wrong direction, how about expanding 45 south along the coast to Corpus?

[Bobby5280]

There's two big problems with extending I-45 from Galveston down to Corpus Christi via the coastline.

1. The extreme 90 degree turn from Galveston would necessitate a completely different route number. It doesn't make any sense to have an Interstate highway make a big L-shape in its route.

2. I-69 will serve the purpose of being an Interstate link between the Houston and Corpus Christi areas.