More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend

[Moose]

I'm a big fan of Interstate quality roads and Interstate designations. They are very helpful for travelers. A US shield means nothing. It could be anything from a crappy two-lane road like US 52 in the southern tip of West Virginia, to an interstate style highway. At the very least, they should come up with different colored US shields so that you know what kind of highway you are on. (Blue for true freeway and maybe red for divided four lane rural with at grade intersections.)

US-31 as a designation could honestly be endangered in sections north of Louisville.

Its happened before, when US-25 disappeared north of Cinci.
Also 31W disappeared in Indiana too.

I know at times US-31 south of Indianapolis has been deemed rather superfluous. Particularly the section Columbus South.. but the section from Columbus north isn't much better. Except for goofballs like me.. I don't know anyone that really uses US-31 in Southern Indiana as a through route.

I swear I remember proposals to just eliminate the US-31 designation on the existing route south of Indy to Louisville.

[jnewkirk77]

I'm a big fan of Interstate quality roads and Interstate designations. They are very helpful for travelers. A US shield means nothing. It could be anything from a crappy two-lane road like US 52 in the southern tip of West Virginia, to an interstate style highway. At the very least, they should come up with different colored US shields so that you know what kind of highway you are on. (Blue for true freeway and maybe red for divided four lane rural with at grade intersections.)

US-31 as a designation could honestly be endangered in sections north of Louisville.

Its happened before, when US-25 disappeared north of Cinci.
Also 31W disappeared in Indiana too.

I know at times US-31 south of Indianapolis has been deemed rather superfluous. Particularly the section Columbus South.. but the section from Columbus north isn't much better. Except for goofballs like me.. I don't know anyone that really uses US-31 in Southern Indiana as a through route.

I swear I remember proposals to just eliminate the US-31 designation on the existing route south of Indy to Louisville.

AASHTO wouldn't go along with deleting 31. Maybe moving it to I-65, but not deleting it.

[The Ghostbuster]

I don't see US 31 being truncated on either end. It will probably always connect Spanish Fort, AL with Mackinaw City, MI for the rest of eternity. I wouldn't mind the 31E/31W combo being eliminated, with one route getting the mainline 31 designation, and the other getting a new designation, such as US 37.

[silverback1065]

31 is going no where.

[Moose]

31 is going no where.

Never say never, Look how much of 31 is ether made useless by I-65 or I-196..
As I said, happened to US 25.

[I-55]

I'm a big fan of Interstate quality roads and Interstate designations. They are very helpful for travelers. A US shield means nothing. It could be anything from a crappy two-lane road like US 52 in the southern tip of West Virginia, to an interstate style highway. At the very least, they should come up with different colored US shields so that you know what kind of highway you are on. (Blue for true freeway and maybe red for divided four lane rural with at grade intersections.)

US-31 as a designation could honestly be endangered in sections north of Louisville.

Its happened before, when US-25 disappeared north of Cinci.
Also 31W disappeared in Indiana too.

I know at times US-31 south of Indianapolis has been deemed rather superfluous. Particularly the section Columbus South.. but the section from Columbus north isn't much better. Except for goofballs like me.. I don't know anyone that really uses US-31 in Southern Indiana as a through route.

I swear I remember proposals to just eliminate the US-31 designation on the existing route south of Indy to Louisville.

AASHTO wouldn't go along with deleting 31. Maybe moving it to I-65, but not deleting it.

I remember a proposal from maybe 5 or so years ago to move 31 to I-65 between Indy and Louisville. I was unable to find a dedicated thread here (though I know it was discussed, may be buried in the Indiana Notes thread?)

[tdindy88]

That means giving a lot of INDOT-maintained road back to local counties and cities. While INDOT does love giving away highways, that may be too much. In any case, US 31 serves as a good alternative route in the event of problems along I-65, a good emergency bypass if needed. It is probably better that the state maintains it and not some local agency. Most interstates in Indiana have a local alternative nearby, I-64 has SR 68, I-69 has SR 57 in the south, I-70 has US 40, I-74 has US 136 and SR 46 in the southeast, I-80/90 have US 20 and SR 2. The only sections that have eliminated or moved onto the interstate itself is if it follows the older route exactly, such as US 421 on I-74 or US 52 on I-65.

[NWI_Irish96]

That means giving a lot of INDOT-maintained road back to local counties and cities. While INDOT does love giving away highways, that may be too much. In any case, US 31 serves as a good alternative route in the event of problems along I-65, a good emergency bypass if needed. It is probably better that the state maintains it and not some local agency. Most interstates in Indiana have a local alternative nearby, I-64 has SR 68, I-69 has SR 57 in the south, I-70 has US 40, I-74 has US 136 and SR 46 in the southeast, I-80/90 have US 20 and SR 2. The only sections that have eliminated or moved onto the interstate itself is if it follows the older route exactly, such as US 421 on I-74 or US 52 on I-65.

Counties/cities aren't going to take back US 31 south of I-465. If AASHTO were to somehow axe US 31 (which I severely doubt ever happens), US 31 south of I-465 would likely become a new iteration of IN 431, or if US 31 were entirely out of the state, it could just be IN 31.

[The Ghostbuster]

Another option, which I think is most likely, is to just leave US 31 on its existing alignment between Louisville, KY and Indianapolis, IN. US 31 passes far enough from parallel Interstate 65 to still be its own route, especially the segment between Seymour and Corn Brook.

[Moose]

I remember a proposal from maybe 5 or so years ago to move 31 to I-65 between Indy and Louisville. I was unable to find a dedicated thread here (though I know it was discussed, may be buried in the Indiana Notes thread?)

Yeah we discussed it on here, it was a study or something.

From memory
US-31 between Seymour and Jeffersonville was found to be completely superfluous, it has absolutely no through traffic.
It is all low speed 55mph two lane roads with many small towns.
It has two places it crosses I-65, one of which is compromised by tight curves.
Another place with an odd curve is the former 31E/31W split, 31 follows a short section of the former 31E to just north of Jeffersonville, where they force you to get on the I-65 ramp system there to get to the old 31 bridge.
Off all three sections, this has almost no through traffic. It never gets more then 1 mile away from I-65.

Seymour around the back side of Columbus was compared to the now rerouted and now local road former US-52 along Sagamore Parkway in Lafayette. There they recommended turning it to state roads. (Possibly IN 7 and IN 9). Local traffic in Columbus makes trying to use it as a through route very costly time wise. The only large amount through traffic on the section was those headed to Madison IN. INDOT also noted that US-31 from Seymour to Columbus was a duplication of another state route IN-11, which is shorter.

The all four lane section from Taylorsville to Indianapolis was compared to the Lebanon to Lafayette portion of US-52. A four lane road which does see a good bit of Indianapolis bound traffic from the south. The recommendation was to keep this section as a federal Highway. Though they noted mounting delays from Greenwood traffic.

[Revive 755]

31 is going no where.

I wouldn't be surprised if a section or two gets moved onto I-65 as happened with US 40 being moved onto I-70 around Terre Haute.   The section around Clarksville and Jeffersonville seems likely for this, with the section through the southern Indianapolis suburbs south of I-465 being another possibility (maybe Greenwood wants to put a fancy streetscape their section someday).

[Moose]

31 is going no where.

I wouldn't be surprised if a section or two gets moved onto I-65 as happened with US 40 being moved onto I-70 around Terre Haute.   The section around Clarksville and Jeffersonville seems likely for this, with the section through the southern Indianapolis suburbs south of I-465 being another possibility (maybe Greenwood wants to put a fancy streetscape their section someday).

US-52 was rerouted in Lafayette in 2013 as well.

The worst and weirdest part is the old 31E section from Sellersburg to Jeffersonville.
US31 used to split there. 31W followed a (still intact) alignment down to New Albany. 31 to 31W was the straight route. You had (and still do) to turn to go down 31E from 31 to Jeffersonville. And of late, there is a huge lack of signage for 31 there, instead a sign there points to the Interstate Exit (which is right there) to go to Louisville.

[JREwing78]

In any case, US 31 serves as a good alternative route in the event of problems along I-65, a good emergency bypass if needed. It is probably better that the state maintains it and not some local agency.

That's probably the best argument for status quo.

[The Ghostbuster]

Maybe they should erect Alternate Interstate 65 signs along US 31. They have them all over the place here in Wisconsin, although I don't know if Indiana has commissioned any. Here is an example here in Madison just north of the US 51/STH 30 interchange: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1076195,-89.3162817,3a,75y,3.21h,80.37t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sIMtOqlsrfYc3ewmeMP9uXw!2e0!5s20220801T000000!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu. And another just south of the interchange: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1053642,-89.3166846,3a,75y,188.26h,80.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1suVmQGJmMSvRZKqAk7iyPsA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu.

[Moose]

Maybe they should erect Alternate Interstate 65 signs along US 31. They have them all over the place here in Wisconsin, although I don't know if Indiana has commissioned any. Here is an example here in Madison just north of the US 51/STH 30 interchange: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1076195,-89.3162817,3a,75y,3.21h,80.37t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sIMtOqlsrfYc3ewmeMP9uXw!2e0!5s20220801T000000!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu. And another just south of the interchange: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1053642,-89.3166846,3a,75y,188.26h,80.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1suVmQGJmMSvRZKqAk7iyPsA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu.

Its pretty much the alternate. US 31 signage is sparse south of Seymour.. and at every major highway crossroad where I-65 is close. There are hordes of To I-65 signs. It is also not uncommon to see the road just closed with little to no warning for whatever maintenance project is going on. The maintenance on the route, south of Columbus is the bare minimum Indot can spend.

Entertaining the idea that US-31 is any kind of Alternative to I-65 in Southern Indiana, particularly south of Seymour is frankly a joke.

"In 2010, INDOT figured that lowest traffic levels were the 3,690 personal vehicles and 160 commercial vehicles that used the highway daily near Memphis. (Indiana)"

Yeah I actually use it a good bit myself. But removing the signs won't keep you from using it as a through route if someone really wants. It is acknowledging the starke current reality that US-31 designation in Southern Indiana is almost a complete anachronism, a forgotten through highway that only a few use north of Columbus as a through route.

So removing US 31 in southern Indiana, and giving the Indy north section a different designation.. kind of makes sense. Particularly when US-31 is I-196 in Michigan for a decent part of its length.

[TempoNick]

Maybe they should erect Alternate Interstate 65 signs along US 31. They have them all over the place here in Wisconsin, although I don't know if Indiana has commissioned any. Here is an example here in Madison just north of the US 51/STH 30 interchange: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1076195,-89.3162817,3a,75y,3.21h,80.37t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sIMtOqlsrfYc3ewmeMP9uXw!2e0!5s20220801T000000!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu. And another just south of the interchange: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1053642,-89.3166846,3a,75y,188.26h,80.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1suVmQGJmMSvRZKqAk7iyPsA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu.

Its pretty much the alternate. US 31 signage is sparse south of Seymour.. and at every major highway crossroad where I-65 is close. There are hordes of To I-65 signs. It is also not uncommon to see the road just closed with little to no warning for whatever maintenance project is going on. The maintenance on the route, south of Columbus is the bare minimum Indot can spend.

Entertaining the idea that US-31 is any kind of Alternative to I-65 in Southern Indiana, particularly south of Seymour is frankly a joke.

"In 2010, INDOT figured that lowest traffic levels were the 3,690 personal vehicles and 160 commercial vehicles that used the highway daily near Memphis. (Indiana)"

Yeah I actually use it a good bit myself. But removing the signs won't keep you from using it as a through route if someone really wants. It is acknowledging the starke current reality that US-31 designation in Southern Indiana is almost a complete anachronism, a forgotten through highway that only a few use north of Columbus as a through route.

So removing US 31 in southern Indiana, and giving the Indy north section a different designation.. kind of makes sense. Particularly when US-31 is I-196 in Michigan for a decent part of its length.

Sounds a little like US 40 in central Ohio. However, when there is something going on on I-70 that slows traffic, I have used it before. No, it wouldn't need to be built today, but it's already there, so it doesn't hurt to keep it around as an alternate route if you need it.

[Moose]

Maybe they should erect Alternate Interstate 65 signs along US 31. They have them all over the place here in Wisconsin, although I don't know if Indiana has commissioned any. Here is an example here in Madison just north of the US 51/STH 30 interchange: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1076195,-89.3162817,3a,75y,3.21h,80.37t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sIMtOqlsrfYc3ewmeMP9uXw!2e0!5s20220801T000000!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu. And another just south of the interchange: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1053642,-89.3166846,3a,75y,188.26h,80.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1suVmQGJmMSvRZKqAk7iyPsA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu.

Its pretty much the alternate. US 31 signage is sparse south of Seymour.. and at every major highway crossroad where I-65 is close. There are hordes of To I-65 signs. It is also not uncommon to see the road just closed with little to no warning for whatever maintenance project is going on. The maintenance on the route, south of Columbus is the bare minimum Indot can spend.

Entertaining the idea that US-31 is any kind of Alternative to I-65 in Southern Indiana, particularly south of Seymour is frankly a joke.

"In 2010, INDOT figured that lowest traffic levels were the 3,690 personal vehicles and 160 commercial vehicles that used the highway daily near Memphis. (Indiana)"

Yeah I actually use it a good bit myself. But removing the signs won't keep you from using it as a through route if someone really wants. It is acknowledging the starke current reality that US-31 designation in Southern Indiana is almost a complete anachronism, a forgotten through highway that only a few use north of Columbus as a through route.

So removing US 31 in southern Indiana, and giving the Indy north section a different designation.. kind of makes sense. Particularly when US-31 is I-196 in Michigan for a decent part of its length.

Sounds a little like US 40 in central Ohio. However, when there is something going on on I-70 that slows traffic, I have used it before. No, it wouldn't need to be built today, but it's already there, so it doesn't hurt to keep it around as an alternate route if you need it.

Similar situation. Only that 31 South of Columbus is all 2 lane blacktop, I remember that much of US-40 is at least four lane there.

[TempoNick]

Similar situation. Only that 31 South of Columbus is all 2 lane blacktop, I remember that much of US-40 is at least four lane there.

Yes, I think US 40 is mostly four-lane highway from about maybe Cambridge, Ohio to Springfield, Ohio. Some two sections, but mostly four lane. Then from Springfield to just west of Richmond, Indiana it's mostly two lane and urban four lane if I remember correctly. Then from Richmond to Indianapolis it's mostly four lane, but maybe not as free-flowing as the Ohio four-lane sections.

[Captain Jack]

I'm a big fan of Interstate quality roads and Interstate designations. They are very helpful for travelers. A US shield means nothing. It could be anything from a crappy two-lane road like US 52 in the southern tip of West Virginia, to an interstate style highway. At the very least, they should come up with different colored US shields so that you know what kind of highway you are on. (Blue for true freeway and maybe red for divided four lane rural with at grade intersections.)

US-31 as a designation could honestly be endangered in sections north of Louisville.

Its happened before, when US-25 disappeared north of Cinci.
Also 31W disappeared in Indiana too.

I know at times US-31 south of Indianapolis has been deemed rather superfluous. Particularly the section Columbus South.. but the section from Columbus north isn't much better. Except for goofballs like me.. I don't know anyone that really uses US-31 in Southern Indiana as a through route.

I swear I remember proposals to just eliminate the US-31 designation on the existing route south of Indy to Louisville.

Just on Thursday, I had account visits in Franklin, Columbus and Scottsburg. Never set foot on 65. Now admittedly, keeping a designation because a few "goofballs" like us have a thing for them doesn't make a lot of sense. Of course you can argue that 31 doesn't serve as a through route, but that same argument can be made for virtually any US Highway that parallels an interstate. Why not just drop 31 from Indy all the way to Mobile? There's plenty of more examples than what you listed. In Indiana alone, US 27 now ends in Ft. Wayne instead of its original point at Mackinac, and we lost US 460 completely and it never hugged I-64 as closely as most parallel routes.

The appetite for removing US Route designations appears to have slowed considerably in the last few years. I would imagine in large part due to the growth and interest in "Historic Routes". Even in the 60's and 70's, eliminations were more of a state by state thing. Places like California and Illinois had hatchets out while the southern states rarely if ever did anything. Another reason I think 31 is safe for years to come. I don't recall Kentucky or Tennessee eliminating much of anything in the last 50-70 years.

I doubt 31 will be eliminated. The appetite for eliminating routes has appeared to slow down some in recent years. 

[TempoNick]

Just on Thursday, I had account visits in Franklin, Columbus and Scottsburg. Never set foot on 65. Now admittedly, keeping a designation because a few "goofballs" like us have a thing for them doesn't make a lot of sense. Of course you can argue that 31 doesn't serve as a through route, but that same argument can be made for virtually any US Highway that parallels an interstate. Why not just drop 31 from Indy all the way to Mobile? There's plenty of more examples than what you listed. In Indiana alone, US 27 now ends in Ft. Wayne instead of its original point at Mackinac, and we lost US 460 completely and it never hugged I-64 as closely as most parallel routes.

The appetite for removing US Route designations appears to have slowed considerably in the last few years. I would imagine in large part due to the growth and interest in "Historic Routes". Even in the 60's and 70's, eliminations were more of a state by state thing. Places like California and Illinois had hatchets out while the southern states rarely if ever did anything. Another reason I think 31 is safe for years to come. I don't recall Kentucky or Tennessee eliminating much of anything in the last 50-70 years.

I doubt 31 will be eliminated. The appetite for eliminating routes has appeared to slow down some in recent years.

It doesn't hurt to have a number to unify these roads. Even if these routes have fallen in disuse, it's still better than a disjointed bunch of road names or even a disjointed bunch of state routes with different numbers from state to state. I don't know what the actual road names would be, but I'm sure it would change from Indianapolis Road, to Columbus Road to Seymour Road or something like that. And what's the point of going from Indiana 931 to Kentucky 436 to Tennessee 822 or whatever random numbers they pick for the former US 31. Just leave the US 31 sign up and keep it unified everywhere.

I know you guys probably don't want to hear too much Ohio stuff, but it serves as a good analogy. US 23 here goes from High Street, to Columbus Road, to Marion - Waldo Road north of here. I don't know what it's called to the South, I'm sure it's something like Columbus-Circleville Road. Having just one number makes things so much simpler.

[silverback1065]

ok now you guys are making me want to drive this stretch of 31 before it goes away 

[The Ghostbuster]

It isn't going away. I'm sure the odds of US 31 being decommissioned between Louisville and Indianapolis, or having 31 completely moved onto parallel Interstate 65, has as much of a chance becoming a reality as many of the proposals of Fictional Highways coming into fruition.

[silverback1065]

US 136 seems more useless than 31.

[TempoNick]

US 136 seems more useless than 31.

Same idea. Instead of cornucopia of road names, it's one continuous route identified by a number. It may be useless, but US 136 is easier then remembering the various local road names if you have a destination somewhere along there.

[bmeiser]

US 136 seems more useless than 31.

Depends on who you ask. I live in Pittsboro and use it all the time to go to Brownsburg or Lizton. Nice to avoid the 65/ green street exit if I'm not going to that side of town.

Pixel 7