San Felipe trip

[agentsteel53]

from about two weeks ago ... here is part 1

https://www.aaroads.com/blog/2010/08/16/san-felipe-i/

featuring the world-famous Oh Shit Dip!

[BigMattFromTexas]

Sweet. I wouldn't mind "borrowing" a couple of those signs. Heh heh.
BigMatt

[agentsteel53]

day two!

https://www.aaroads.com/blog/2010/08/18/san-felipe-ii/



that's Mike B standing on the fault from the April 2010 Mexicali earthquake.  Badass.

[BigMattFromTexas]

"Sorry, no posts matched your criteria."....
BigMatt

[agentsteel53]

urgh!  

https://www.aaroads.com/blog/2010/08/18/san-felipe-ii/

try that.  I have no idea why sometimes Wordpress updates the date to the day it is published, and other times it does not.

(the greater misfeature is why the URL of a post changes when one fixes the date.  that's just abusively idiotic.)

[J N Winkler]

"FMM"?  They called them FMT when I was last there (in 2003)--if memory serves, FMT-1 is what you get as a tourist, while FMT-2 and FMT-3 are for businesspeople and long-term residents.  I have never known them to be inspected at military checkpoints either--generally I had to show my FMT-1 only at the Customs checkpoint at the internal frontier.

[agentsteel53]

"FMM"?  They called them FMT when I was last there (in 2003)--if memory serves, FMT-1 is what you get as a tourist, while FMT-2 and FMT-3 are for businesspeople and long-term residents.  I have never known them to be inspected at military checkpoints either--generally I had to show my FMT-1 only at the Customs checkpoint at the internal frontier.

from what I can tell, FMM was introduced in May of 2010.  The new M stands for multiple, which is why I had no idea I was supposed to return it, as with the FMT.  I figured I could go in and out with it, for 180 days.

A friend of mine who visited Mexico by plane says it's the airline that took her FMM, and therefore she did not get an exit stamp on her passport.  So I am probably okay if I forgot to return it.  The absence of an exit stamp on my passport should not be viewed as suspicious. 

my plan is, when I next go to Mexico, is to just get another FMM, and hope they do not not notice the imbalance.  Surely I can't be the first dumb gringo who doesn't realize there's exit controls in a country.  (I know such a thing exists but that's because I grew up behind the Iron Curtain!)

I do not know if the military has the right to inspect FMMs.  I figure the $22 is worth it for the peace of mind, and hey, a passport stamp!  Since in the intermediate future I am thinking of a week-long Baja trip, I will definitely be running into authorities that want to see my FMM.  Probably at the Baja/Baja Sur state line, and maybe elsewhere.

[J N Winkler]

from what I can tell, FMM was introduced in May of 2010.  The new M stands for multiple, which is why I had no idea I was supposed to return it, as with the FMT.  I figured I could go in and out with it, for 180 days.

Maybe I was being a dumb gringo back in 2003, but my understanding was that it was not necessary to return the FMT-1 when leaving Mexico--that requirement applied only to the car sticker and you got a certificate indicating that the temporary vehicle importation had been cancelled.  In theory a FMT-1 can be written to be valid for up to 180 days, but in practice I was always asked how long I proposed to be in Mexico, and the FMT-1 was written with validity up to the day after my projected leaving date.  I understood this to be done for much the same purposes as actual exit controls (which exist in Schengenland and also in the US for air departures too, so it's not strictly an Iron Curtain thing), since being in the Mexican interior without a FMT-1 with validity covering the relevant dates can be grounds for deportation.

A FMT-1 used to be valid for multiple entry and exit until its expiry date.  For that matter, the same was, and may still be true, of the temporary vehicle importation.

One thing I found a bit strange is that although payment for a FMT-1 could in theory be accepted at branches of the Banjercito, and every border crossing of any importance has a Banjercito module for purposes of processing temporary vehicle importations, it was apparently not normal for the border-station Banjercito to accept payment for a FMT-1.  This caught me out on my second visit to the Mexican interior.  In 2001 I crossed the border in the normal way, but thought payment for my FMT-1 had been collected along with the fees for temporary vehicle importation.  In 2002, when I re-entered, red flags went up as soon as I handed over my passport.  I was not actually told directly that I had failed to pay the fee associated with the previous FMT-1, or instructed to pay it then and there, but the INM personnel who issued the new FMT-1 were very careful to tell me, in broken English, that I needed to pay the associated fee at a bank in Chihuahua (my stated destination).  Later, when I returned to Wichita, I checked the older FMT-1 and discovered that it still had the counterpart which the bank clerk tears off when the fee is paid.

A friend of mine who visited Mexico by plane says it's the airline that took her FMM, and therefore she did not get an exit stamp on her passport.  So I am probably okay if I forgot to return it.  The absence of an exit stamp on my passport should not be viewed as suspicious.

I would not worry about it.  The way I see it, if they are going to rely on exit stamps in your passport as proof that you have complied with their immigration laws, the exit stamps should be clearly differentiated from entry stamps, as is indeed the case for Schengen stamps.  It has been so long since I was last in Mexico that the passport I used then is now cancelled and locked up in a safe, so I can't check, but my recollection is that the two-color (red/green) INM stamps in my passport consisted just of the eagle and snake, agency acronym, and date in Spanish--no "ENTRADA" or "SALIDA."

I do not know if the military has the right to inspect FMMs.  I figure the $22 is worth it for the peace of mind, and hey, a passport stamp!  Since in the intermediate future I am thinking of a week-long Baja trip, I will definitely be running into authorities that want to see my FMM.  Probably at the Baja/Baja Sur state line, and maybe elsewhere.

You will definitely run into them if the BCN/BCS border is where the internal frontier is on the Baja California peninsula (I'm not sure; elsewhere in Mexico the internal frontier is typically 15 to 40 km inside the border but Baja California is possibly a special case, and Sonora definitely is because of the "Only Sonora" concession, which means there are actually two internal frontiers within Sonora).  The Mexican army may have the technical entitlement to ask to see your FMM, as may the FPP, PGR, PJE in whichever state you are in, etc., but in practice only the Aduana is interested in it, and that is because checking immigration status (as well as temporary vehicle importation) is what they are tasked to do.  The army is there largely to make sure you are not moving drugs or other contraband such as guns, grenades, ammunition (especially of caliber larger than that used by the standard Mexican army rifle), etc.

Before I visited Mexico for the first time, a Hispanic woman in Texas (Big Bend country) told me that I would have no difficulties as long as I followed the rules in Mexico.  My own experience has been that if you go in at least with a posture of wanting to follow the rules, you will be cut some slack if you make mistakes.

[agentsteel53]

Maybe I was being a dumb gringo back in 2003, but my understanding was that it was not necessary to return the FMT-1 when leaving Mexico--that requirement applied only to the car sticker and you got a certificate indicating that the temporary vehicle importation had been cancelled. 

heh, that car importation thing - that's gonna be another fun knot to untangle.  Mexico has so many overlapping jurisdictions, and in this case, there is an "internal frontier" at the Baja/Baja Sur border for FMM checking, but one is - correct me if I'm wrong! - allowed to take a vehicle all the way down to Cabo San Lucas with no paperwork needed.  Furthermore, the US rental car companies who do not let me take a car into Oregon (from San Diego) are happy to let me take a car only 15 miles perpendicular to the border past Nogales ... but, again, all the way down to Cabo!

it would be great to see a map that showed all the various jurisdictions, clearly demarcated.  "You need a vehicle import permit to go here." "You need an FMM to go here." etc.

In theory a FMT-1 can be written to be valid for up to 180 days, but in practice I was always asked how long I proposed to be in Mexico, and the FMT-1 was written with validity up to the day after my projected leaving date.

I was also asked a few general questions about my visit, including the time we're expecting to take, and when my answers came up coherent, the official just wrote "180" in the field.  And he did not, at any time, mention that I needed to return this at border control - even though he a) spoke fluent English, and 2) realized early on in the conversation that my Spanish was pretty minimal, and likely extrapolated that I would not be able to get through that legal verbiage on the back of the FMM card. 

I understood this to be done for much the same purposes as actual exit controls (which exist in Schengenland and also in the US for air departures too, so it's not strictly an Iron Curtain thing)

are we confusing two separate concepts here?  I'm thinking about exit controls in the form of a permanent "you left this country/jurisdiction/economic trade zone" stamp, not just the fact that they look at your passport.  I have never gotten an exit stamp leaving the US, or Schengenland.  Both places looked at my passport, but neither stamped it. 

I'll have to look at my old passport to see if I got an exit stamp out of Hungary in 1986 - I know the Soviets put a very famous "leave and never come back" stamp on the passport of anyone who was granted exile, but Hungary wasn't nearly so harsh.  (My family was certainly allowed to visit in 1988 with no problem!)  I seem to always remember entrance stamps, and never exit stamps. 

since being in the Mexican interior without a FMT-1 with validity covering the relevant dates can be grounds for deportation.

fair enough.  I wonder why they gave me the blanket "180".  (I had dollars to spend??)  That is one of the reasons (along with the change from FMT to FMM) that I figured it was good for multiple entries, and therefore needing to surrender it at the border upon departure seemed counterintuitive. 

A FMT-1 used to be valid for multiple entry and exit until its expiry date.  For that matter, the same was, and may still be true, of the temporary vehicle importation.

I have no idea.  Then, my question remains, why the need to surrender it upon departure?  I am sure the great proportion of visitors do not know how many times they're coming back in the next 180 days.  I certainly do not know - I may be returning within 180 days of the issue of my FMM on July 31, or I may not.

One thing I found a bit strange is that although payment for a FMT-1 could in theory be accepted at branches of the Banjercito, and every border crossing of any importance has a Banjercito module for purposes of processing temporary vehicle importations, it was apparently not normal for the border-station Banjercito to accept payment for a FMT-1.

the Banjercito in general is very strange.  Is it that much of a pain in overhead to have the cash register and the issuing authority within the same kiosk?  In Ensenada, they were opposite each other in the same office.  "Now, you must go over there, pay 262 pesos or 22 dollars, and then come back to me."  It seems to be some sort of very baroque anti-corruption deterrent, that the person issuing the credentials is not allowed to handle the money.  Can't they at least be put right next to each other, so that I don't have to walk back and forth?

We did not even manage to find the Migracion/Banjercito at Otay Mesa, which is why we ended up in Ensenada.  I totally failed to check to see if they had the provisions for vehicle importation paperwork.  I plan on getting future FMMs in Ensenada since their office is very easy to find, but if I happen to want to do a trip that isn't south to Cabo but rather east to somewhere else, I may need to get the vehicle importation elsewhere, it seems?

This caught me out on my second visit to the Mexican interior.  In 2001 I crossed the border in the normal way, but thought payment for my FMT-1 had been collected along with the fees for temporary vehicle importation.  In 2002, when I re-entered, red flags went up as soon as I handed over my passport.  I was not actually told directly that I had failed to pay the fee associated with the previous FMT-1, or instructed to pay it then and there, but the INM personnel who issued the new FMT-1 were very careful to tell me, in broken English, that I needed to pay the associated fee at a bank in Chihuahua (my stated destination).  Later, when I returned to Wichita, I checked the older FMT-1 and discovered that it still had the counterpart which the bank clerk tears off when the fee is paid.

so did you end up paying the FMT-1 fee in Chihuahua?  If so, why did the Chihuahua authority not tear off the counterpart to the FMT-1 form?  (The FMM form is in two portions as well, just like the FMT-1.  It's originally about an 8x6 card, that turns into a 4x6 card when the fee is paid.)

I would not worry about it.  The way I see it, if they are going to rely on exit stamps in your passport as proof that you have complied with their immigration laws, the exit stamps should be clearly differentiated from entry stamps, as is indeed the case for Schengen stamps.  It has been so long since I was last in Mexico that the passport I used then is now cancelled and locked up in a safe, so I can't check, but my recollection is that the two-color (red/green) INM stamps in my passport consisted just of the eagle and snake, agency acronym, and date in Spanish--no "ENTRADA" or "SALIDA."

this is similar to the stamp I got, but mine (if I recall correctly - passport is at home, and I am at work) had a small icon of an automobile, and below it some four-character sequence that may be code for ENTRADA or SALIDA (or just the agency name and office number?), and also Ensenada.

You will definitely run into them if the BCN/BCS border is where the internal frontier is on the Baja California peninsula (I'm not sure; elsewhere in Mexico the internal frontier is typically 15 to 40 km inside the border but Baja California is possibly a special case,

yes, this is one of the things that I would love to have clearly delineated.  I believe there is a customs checkpoint, but not a vehicle importation checkpoint.

and Sonora definitely is because of the "Only Sonora" concession, which means there are actually two internal frontiers within Sonora).

complicated!  This adds a third dimension of jurisdiction, as to this day I am not sure if I am allowed to enter the country in Baja (get stamped in Ensenada) and then cross into Sonora.  If so, at what points?  We crossed about 40km south of San Luis Rio Colorado - then the question remains, is one allowed to drive south to Golfo de Santa Clara and Puerto Penasco, because hey, Sonora Only, even though we've got Baja credentials?  I believe the rental car agreement allows travel as far as those two places, including the road between them, but Puerto Penasco is south of the internal frontier that cuts Sonora in two, and probably Golfo is as well.

The Mexican army may have the technical entitlement to ask to see your FMM, as may the FPP, PGR, PJE in whichever state you are in, etc., but in practice only the Aduana is interested in it, and that is because checking immigration status (as well as temporary vehicle importation) is what they are tasked to do.  The army is there largely to make sure you are not moving drugs or other contraband such as guns, grenades, ammunition (especially of caliber larger than that used by the standard Mexican army rifle), etc.

that makes a lot of sense, given what the army did every time, which was to look in our trunk and make small talk.  The question then becomes, why is it stated that one needs no FMM to go "down highway 5 to San Felipe" and "down highway 1 to Ensenada", but does not mention the 3 connection road between the two?  Is it because no tourist takes that highway, so the US websites don't bother to mention it? 

Before I visited Mexico for the first time, a Hispanic woman in Texas (Big Bend country) told me that I would have no difficulties as long as I followed the rules in Mexico.  My own experience has been that if you go in at least with a posture of wanting to follow the rules, you will be cut some slack if you make mistakes.

I'm doing my best here; just that my Spanish is pretty mediocre.  It's good enough to get me through ordinary conversation with ordinary folks on ordinary topics, but the legal stuff is well above my head.

like I said, I would like to see a map with three overlapping shadings:

1) where a rental car can be taken (this seems to be a common policy to all rental companies)
2) where one can go without an FMM (and, in the case of Sonora Only, are there "islands" that one can go to that are technically gated off from each other - namely, can one drive from Ensenada to Puerto Penasco?)
3) where one can go without a vehicle importation permit

[J N Winkler]

it would be great to see a map that showed all the various jurisdictions, clearly demarcated.  "You need a vehicle import permit to go here." "You need an FMM to go here." etc.

I would love to see such a map and I have looked for it over the years without success.  I do wonder though if it is possible to indicate all of the restrictions through an area coloring scheme.  As an example, the largely unroaded west of Mexico it is feasible to police an internal frontier by having Customs stations south of major intersections on Mex. 2, but further east (Tamaulipas, Nuevo Leon, etc.) is there not some possibility of evasion by using minor roads?

Also such a map should clearly indicate "traps" where return of a temporary vehicle permit in effect commits you to returning to the US at a possibly very congested crossing point, because you no longer have the capability to shuffle sideways on Mex. 2 (or another major highway parallel to the border) to a less congested crossing.  It also needs to indicate crossings which don't have facilities for handling temporary vehicle importations (in the El Paso area, for example, the Mexican crossing point opposite Santa Teresa does not have a Banjercito module and so it is impossible just to return the car sticker and go back to the US).

I understood this to be done for much the same purposes as actual exit controls (which exist in Schengenland and also in the US for air departures too, so it's not strictly an Iron Curtain thing)

are we confusing two separate concepts here?  I'm thinking about exit controls in the form of a permanent "you left this country/jurisdiction/economic trade zone" stamp, not just the fact that they look at your passport.  I have never gotten an exit stamp leaving the US, or Schengenland.  Both places looked at my passport, but neither stamped it.

These are not separate concepts--they are just two facets of the general problem of exit controls.  What the US does at airports, for example, does not result in a stamp in your passport but creates a computerized record of exit.  I suspect that leaving Schengenland on a non-EEA passport also creates a computerized record of exit but since they generally stamp you on exit, you also get a record of exit which is in your passport and available for you to consult.  (The Schengen agreement requires the Schengenland countries to have active exit controls for non-EEA nationals in general.  I have heard rumors that some countries don't follow this rule and don't stamp non-EEA nationals on exit, but I have never seen confirmation of this, and it has not happened to me in any of my recent travels.  It did used to be possible to travel from Paris to London by bus without having your passport stamped on exit by French immigration, but I last did this in 1999 and I think it is possible the Schengen provisions had not taken full effect at that time.)

My general rule of thumb is that in any context where you have to hand over your passport--airline check-in, hotel check-in in Schengenland, immigration either coming or going--that is either an actual or potential locus for some form of immigration control.  Typically a paper or computer record will be generated which is available to the authorities but not to you unless you find some way to exercise data-protection rights.

I'll have to look at my old passport to see if I got an exit stamp out of Hungary in 1986 - I know the Soviets put a very famous "leave and never come back" stamp on the passport of anyone who was granted exile, but Hungary wasn't nearly so harsh.  (My family was certainly allowed to visit in 1988 with no problem!)  I seem to always remember entrance stamps, and never exit stamps.

You are Hungarian, so in 1986 you might not have gotten an exit stamp while a US citizen making the identical journey would have gotten an exit stamp.  Moreover, Schengenland expanded to include Hungary in late 2007 (I think the precise date was December 20, 2007--that apparently being when the Hegyeshalom/Nickelsdorf crossing on the Austrian border was closed).  This means that as a Hungarian citizen, you are also an EU citizen with the Community right of free movement and so you do not get stamped on entry or exit, whether you are coming from or going to another Schengen country.  As an US citizen I do not get stamped if I cross to a neighboring country which is also in Schengenland, or if I fly to an airport in another Schengen country.  (Flights inside Schengenland work exactly like domestic flights in the US except you have to hand over your passport at check-in.)  But I do get stamped if I fly outside Schengenland, even to Britain, or leave Schengenland by land.

since being in the Mexican interior without a FMT-1 with validity covering the relevant dates can be grounds for deportation.

fair enough.  I wonder why they gave me the blanket "180".  (I had dollars to spend??)  That is one of the reasons (along with the change from FMT to FMM) that I figured it was good for multiple entries, and therefore needing to surrender it at the border upon departure seemed counterintuitive.

I haven't checked, but I would bet it is valid for multiple entries because FMT-1 was, too.  The difference, I suspect, was that you were not coming from hundreds of miles away.  The technical possibility of making multiple entries within a 180-day period would therefore be of more use to you than it was to me.

A FMT-1 used to be valid for multiple entry and exit until its expiry date.  For that matter, the same was, and may still be true, of the temporary vehicle importation.

I have no idea.  Then, my question remains, why the need to surrender it upon departure?  I am sure the great proportion of visitors do not know how many times they're coming back in the next 180 days.  I certainly do not know - I may be returning within 180 days of the issue of my FMM on July 31, or I may not.

You are not obliged to surrender the temporary vehicle importation paperwork every time you leave Mexico.  You are only obliged to do so the last time you leave Mexico before it expires.  If the importation has expired without the paperwork being returned, under Mexican law your car is technically contraband and can be seized the next time you enter Mexico.  You also lose the deposit you give as part of the temporary vehicle importation process (or, more precisely, the amount deposited is not credited back to your credit card).

the Banjercito in general is very strange.  Is it that much of a pain in overhead to have the cash register and the issuing authority within the same kiosk?  In Ensenada, they were opposite each other in the same office.  "Now, you must go over there, pay 262 pesos or 22 dollars, and then come back to me."  It seems to be some sort of very baroque anti-corruption deterrent, that the person issuing the credentials is not allowed to handle the money.  Can't they at least be put right next to each other, so that I don't have to walk back and forth?

When I got my first temporary vehicle importation, the Banjercito clerk (who handled everything, BTW--this was at Ojinaga, a very small border crossing) walked out to my car with the sticker and affixed it to my windshield.  This was not purely a courtesy, as I thought at first, but also an opportunity for him to ask me for a M$20 gratuity.  This was despite a huge poster in the INM office next door saying, in English, "All services through this office are provided free of charge.  If you are asked to pay a tip, call us at [such and such a number]."

Realistically, though, I think part of the reason Mexicans insist on such visibly strict cashflow controls as part of the temporary vehicle importation process is to save themselves some heat from the US Embassy for ripping off Americans.  (The temporary vehicle importation process, even with the ability to pay a deposit by credit card, is complex, bureaucratic, and user-unfriendly, and has no reciprocal equivalent on the US side of the border.)  Inevitably, at some border crossings, these controls will be more of a Potemkin village than at some others.

We did not even manage to find the Migracion/Banjercito at Otay Mesa, which is why we ended up in Ensenada.  I totally failed to check to see if they had the provisions for vehicle importation paperwork.  I plan on getting future FMMs in Ensenada since their office is very easy to find, but if I happen to want to do a trip that isn't south to Cabo but rather east to somewhere else, I may need to get the vehicle importation elsewhere, it seems?

I would have thought Otay had at least an INM office.  Some of the smaller border crossings don't have Banjercito modules, especially if they are near much larger border crossings, and in such cases you are expected to go to a "Km. 30" station (basically, at the internal frontier) to clear the temporary vehicle importation paperwork.  That is how it works in the El Paso vicinity, for example--INM processes you at the border but the temporary vehicle importation, and possibly FMT/FMM issuance, has to occur at Km. 30.  In the Nogales area the Km. 30 checkpoint is located north of the Mex. 15/Mex. 2 intersection (in Imuris, IIRC), which is an absolute bitch if you are looking to go to Naco or Sasabe (via Mex. 2) to avoid the Nogales-area border crossings but don't know whether either Naco or Sasabe can cancel a temporary vehicle importation.  If you do it at the Nogales Km. 30 station, you know for sure that it has been done, but then you can't go back south on Mex. 15 to get to either Naco or Sasabe via Mex. 2.

so did you end up paying the FMT-1 fee in Chihuahua?  If so, why did the Chihuahua authority not tear off the counterpart to the FMT-1 form?  (The FMM form is in two portions as well, just like the FMT-1.  It's originally about an 8x6 card, that turns into a 4x6 card when the fee is paid.)

FMM sounds just the same as FMT, only with a new name.

There were actually two FMT-1s involved, one for each visit.  The older FMT-1 still had the counterpart, because I had not paid the fee.  This was how I confirmed I had made a mistake.  The newer FMT-1 lost its counterpart when I paid the fee and the bank clerk tore it off.  (As it happened, I paid the fee at a bank in downtown Chihuahua, just round the corner from the cathedral.)

I would not worry about it.  The way I see it, if they are going to rely on exit stamps in your passport as proof that you have complied with their immigration laws, the exit stamps should be clearly differentiated from entry stamps, as is indeed the case for Schengen stamps.  It has been so long since I was last in Mexico that the passport I used then is now cancelled and locked up in a safe, so I can't check, but my recollection is that the two-color (red/green) INM stamps in my passport consisted just of the eagle and snake, agency acronym, and date in Spanish--no "ENTRADA" or "SALIDA."

this is similar to the stamp I got, but mine (if I recall correctly - passport is at home, and I am at work) had a small icon of an automobile, and below it some four-character sequence that may be code for ENTRADA or SALIDA (or just the agency name and office number?), and also Ensenada.

Based on the way immigration stamps work in Britain and Schengenland, I would guess that the four-character sequence is unique to the INM officer.  It is a form of bureaucratic control since it allows the decision to admit to be attributed to a specific officer, who can then be sent for retraining or disciplined if his or her decisions on who to admit and for how long are found not to be in accordance with house rules.

You will definitely run into them if the BCN/BCS border is where the internal frontier is on the Baja California peninsula (I'm not sure; elsewhere in Mexico the internal frontier is typically 15 to 40 km inside the border but Baja California is possibly a special case,

yes, this is one of the things that I would love to have clearly delineated.  I believe there is a customs checkpoint, but not a vehicle importation checkpoint.

I think that, as a general rule of thumb, all Customs checkpoints at the internal frontiers inspect vehicle importation paperwork, unless the state in question has exercised the "Only Sonora" option.  In the latter case I think they do check the "Only Sonora" pass (or equivalent) too.  In theory, if you leave Sonora, you have to upgrade "Only Sonora" to FMT-1 (now FMM) and a proper federal temporary vehicle importation.  The problem is that Sonora's border crossings with other Mexican states are often in remote and very rugged terrain.  On Mex. 16, for instance, you find yourself hard pushed to do better than 40 km/h for hundreds and hundreds of km (something like 400 km of the 700 km between Cuauhtémoc and Hermosillo--this road crosses the Sierra Madre Occidental).  I have been past the spot (in Maycoba or Yécora, I think--can't remember which one) where "Only Sonora" pass holders going toward Chihuahua have to turn off and be controlled.  It is essentially just a tin shed in the middle of nowhere and I could not believe that it had facilities for issuing FMT-1s or handling temporary vehicle importations.  I am not sure what exactly an officer at this station could do except tell "Only Sonora" pass holders to turn around and drive many hours back to Hermosillo or wherever to do the paperwork for travel elsewhere in Mexico.

Obviously a mapping-based solution needs to be complemented by detailed explanations of what can go wrong at the state borders where "Only Sonora"-type concessions end.

and Sonora definitely is because of the "Only Sonora" concession, which means there are actually two internal frontiers within Sonora).

complicated!  This adds a third dimension of jurisdiction, as to this day I am not sure if I am allowed to enter the country in Baja (get stamped in Ensenada) and then cross into Sonora.  If so, at what points?  We crossed about 40km south of San Luis Rio Colorado - then the question remains, is one allowed to drive south to Golfo de Santa Clara and Puerto Penasco, because hey, Sonora Only, even though we've got Baja credentials?  I believe the rental car agreement allows travel as far as those two places, including the road between them, but Puerto Penasco is south of the internal frontier that cuts Sonora in two, and probably Golfo is as well.

If you have FMT-1 (now FMM) and temporary vehicle importation, then you are good to go in Sonora and anyplace else that has an equivalent "Only Sonora"-type concession for tourism.  You pay more for the federal clearance, but you have the peace of mind of knowing you can go anywhere in Mexico without problems.  The people who really have to worry, IMO, are the ones who enter from the US, take "Only Sonora" because it is free and convenient, decide they like Mexico and want to see more of it, and then get all the way to a really remote place near Sonora's border with another state where they are told they have to turn back because there are no facilities for legalizing their travel across the state line.

The question then becomes, why is it stated that one needs no FMM to go "down highway 5 to San Felipe" and "down highway 1 to Ensenada", but does not mention the 3 connection road between the two?  Is it because no tourist takes that highway, so the US websites don't bother to mention it?

The cynic in me suspects that the travel writers (and website maintainers) are too lazy and too busy sipping their tequilas and mai-tais to upgrade their vague talk of itineraries into a concrete, area-based description of how the internal frontier works.

I think there is a good possibility the Mexicans have arbitrarily moved the internal frontier down to the BCN/BCS border, but I am not sure how to go about checking this.  Is there, in fact, an "Only BC" concession similar to "Only Sonora"?

I'm doing my best here; just that my Spanish is pretty mediocre.  It's good enough to get me through ordinary conversation with ordinary folks on ordinary topics, but the legal stuff is well above my head.

My Spanish is at least as bad, but in a different way--the bureaucratic stuff gives me no problems, especially when I can take it away and study it in quiet.  Conversational Spanish is not easy for me!

like I said, I would like to see a map with three overlapping shadings:

1) where a rental car can be taken (this seems to be a common policy to all rental companies)
2) where one can go without an FMM (and, in the case of Sonora Only, are there "islands" that one can go to that are technically gated off from each other - namely, can one drive from Ensenada to Puerto Penasco?)
3) where one can go without a vehicle importation permit

Regarding (2) and (3), I think they are more or less the same.  In Sonora, for example, "Only Sonora" replaces both the FMT-1/FMM and temporary vehicle importation, at least outside a border zone lining Sonora's borders with other Mexican states.  Assuming that the internal frontier on the peninsula is right at the BCN/BCS border, I think the real problem with an Ensenada-Puerto Peñasco itinerary might be issue of "Only Sonora" at the BCN border (not the US border).  Puerto Peñasco is definitely south of the internal frontier though the Customs checkpoint is well south of Mex. 2.

[agentsteel53]

I would love to see such a map and I have looked for it over the years without success.

I think we might have to make one.  If we deem it to be sufficiently accurate, we can add it to AARoads in general.

I do wonder though if it is possible to indicate all of the restrictions through an area coloring scheme.  As an example, the largely unroaded west of Mexico it is feasible to police an internal frontier by having Customs stations south of major intersections on Mex. 2, but further east (Tamaulipas, Nuevo Leon, etc.) is there not some possibility of evasion by using minor roads?

I think in this case it is prudent to err on the side of restriction.  Namely, just declare a frontier inviolable even though there may be some obscure way around it.  People using the map should be confident that they receive no surprises; if they can get around a checkpoint, more power to them.

Also such a map should clearly indicate "traps" where return of a temporary vehicle permit in effect commits you to returning to the US at a possibly very congested crossing point, because you no longer have the capability to shuffle sideways on Mex. 2 (or another major highway parallel to the border) to a less congested crossing.

indeed, given that in some places 2 is past the frontier (in inland Mexico), and other places it is within the frontier (in the borderland).

It also needs to indicate crossings which don't have facilities for handling temporary vehicle importations (in the El Paso area, for example, the Mexican crossing point opposite Santa Teresa does not have a Banjercito module and so it is impossible just to return the car sticker and go back to the US).

A very good point.

These are not separate concepts--they are just two facets of the general problem of exit controls.  What the US does at airports, for example, does not result in a stamp in your passport but creates a computerized record of exit.  I suspect that leaving Schengenland on a non-EEA passport also creates a computerized record of exit but since they generally stamp you on exit, you also get a record of exit which is in your passport and available for you to consult.

as I have a Schengen passport, I do not receive this sort of exit stamp.  I'll have to ask friends of mine who have US passports.  Looks like I'm in the subset of passport holders that get exit stamps neither leaving the US, nor the Schengen zone.

My general rule of thumb is that in any context where you have to hand over your passport--airline check-in, hotel check-in in Schengenland, immigration either coming or going--that is either an actual or potential locus for some form of immigration control.

really, you need to hand over a passport when checking into a hotel??  That I had no idea about ... but then again the last two times I've been to Europe, I've camped out instead of staying in formal lodging.  

You are Hungarian, so in 1986 you might not have gotten an exit stamp while a US citizen making the identical journey would have gotten an exit stamp.  Moreover, Schengenland expanded to include Hungary in late 2007 (I think the precise date was December 20, 2007--that apparently being when the Hegyeshalom/Nickelsdorf crossing on the Austrian border was closed).

that sounds about right.  I know in March 2008 I had absolutely no problems traveling to Norway (which technically isn't EU, but is Schengen).

This means that as a Hungarian citizen, you are also an EU citizen with the Community right of free movement and so you do not get stamped on entry or exit, whether you are coming from or going to another Schengen country.

"EU" and "Schengen" are not quite exactly identical - Norway is Schengen but not EU, and I believe Great Britain is EU but not Schengen.  Complicated!  I wonder what controls I would be subjected to if I visited Great Britain on my Hungarian passport.

I haven't checked, but I would bet it is valid for multiple entries because FMT-1 was, too.  The difference, I suspect, was that you were not coming from hundreds of miles away.  The technical possibility of making multiple entries within a 180-day period would therefore be of more use to you than it was to me.

indeed; given where I live, I can get up one morning and say "I'm going to Mexico" with little logistical issue.

You are not obliged to surrender the temporary vehicle importation paperwork every time you leave Mexico.  You are only obliged to do so the last time you leave Mexico before it expires.  If the importation has expired without the paperwork being returned, under Mexican law your car is technically contraband and can be seized the next time you enter Mexico.  You also lose the deposit you give as part of the temporary vehicle importation process (or, more precisely, the amount deposited is not credited back to your credit card).

and is this true for the FMM as well, then?  Namely, the best way to remain in compliance would be to go back to Mexico within 180 days, use my current FMM, and then surrender it?  Hmm, seeing as I may be headed to San Felipe again around New Years, I may very qualify to use my current FMM.  It expires Jan 26 or whatever 180 days past July 31 is.  So should I just take the FMM with me and then surrender it then?

I would have thought Otay had at least an INM office.  

We did not see it.  Then again we were busy just paying attention to red-light/green-light and making sure we didn't run over any of the Mexican officers milling about.  Those urban border crossings can be pretty chaotic places.

Some of the smaller border crossings don't have Banjercito modules, especially if they are near much larger border crossings, and in such cases you are expected to go to a "Km. 30" station (basically, at the internal frontier) to clear the temporary vehicle importation paperwork.  That is how it works in the El Paso vicinity, for example--INM processes you at the border but the temporary vehicle importation, and possibly FMT/FMM issuance, has to occur at Km. 30.

And how does this work in Baja California?  I absolutely drew a blank on checking for a vehicle importation facility in Ensenada, but I get the idea that there may not have been one, because (as we are assuming) one does not need to import a vehicle to drive further down Baja, and driving from Baja to Sonora is not something people do often.

going back to the location of hwy 2... if it is beyond the frontier at 15 south of Nogales, but well within the frontier at least as far east as San Luis Rio Colorado (it's about six blocks from the US border), that implies it crosses the frontier.  Is there a Km.30 station heading east on hwy 2, then, somewhere between San Luis Rio Colorado and Nogales, for vehicle importation permits?

In the Nogales area the Km. 30 checkpoint is located north of the Mex. 15/Mex. 2 intersection (in Imuris, IIRC), which is an absolute bitch if you are looking to go to Naco or Sasabe (via Mex. 2) to avoid the Nogales-area border crossings but don't know whether either Naco or Sasabe can cancel a temporary vehicle importation.  If you do it at the Nogales Km. 30 station, you know for sure that it has been done, but then you can't go back south on Mex. 15 to get to either Naco or Sasabe via Mex. 2.

that's a pain!  certainly someone needs to find this out for Naco and Sasabe.

There were actually two FMT-1s involved, one for each visit.  The older FMT-1 still had the counterpart, because I had not paid the fee.  This was how I confirmed I had made a mistake.  The newer FMT-1 lost its counterpart when I paid the fee and the bank clerk tore it off.  (As it happened, I paid the fee at a bank in downtown Chihuahua, just round the corner from the cathedral.)

and the bank in downtown Chihuahua did not tear off half the card?

I think that, as a general rule of thumb, all Customs checkpoints at the internal frontiers inspect vehicle importation paperwork, unless the state in question has exercised the "Only Sonora" option.

is there any other state that has an Only Sonora option?  I think you asked this too ... is there an implicit "Only Baja" option, in that no vehicle importation permits are required in Baja Cal?  (And the western part of Sonora before crossing the frontier into inland Mexico.)

In the latter case I think they do check the "Only Sonora" pass (or equivalent) too.  In theory, if you leave Sonora, you have to upgrade "Only Sonora" to FMT-1 (now FMM) and a proper federal temporary vehicle importation.

so am I correct in stating that (FMM+vehicle importation) is a proper superset of Only Sonora?  Namely, there is not a single example of a privilege that Only Sonora gives that a vehicle importation plus an FMM will not give?  

(Leaving aside the issue that FMM+vehicle importation costs more!)

Obviously a mapping-based solution needs to be complemented by detailed explanations of what can go wrong at the state borders where "Only Sonora"-type concessions end.

indeed.  It looks like the Only Sonora is an extremely appropriately-named option, namely "do not expect to be able to upgrade to be let out of Sonora".  So basically, with an Only Sonora, one can head to the frontier of Baja California, but it would behoove them to pick up an FMM before heading too far south?

God damn this is complicated.  No wonder nobody in the US knows this!!!

If you have FMT-1 (now FMM) and temporary vehicle importation, then you are good to go in Sonora and anyplace else that has an equivalent "Only Sonora"-type concession for tourism.

If I have FMM and temporary vehicle importation, I am good to go anywhere in the whole damn country!

(also, are there any other places that have Only Sonora-like concessions?  Perhaps down in the Cancun/Chichen Itza/Merida and Cabo areas there are other special tourist zones that we should be aware of marking?  what about Mexico City, as that is also a tourist hotspot)

The cynic in me suspects that the travel writers (and website maintainers) are too lazy and too busy sipping their tequilas and mai-tais to upgrade their vague talk of itineraries into a concrete, area-based description of how the internal frontier works.

indeed, the tourist guides are all linear (specific roads), while the law is based on areas and perimeters, and it looks like they've taken the easy way out.  What we need to find out is where in Baja one needs an FMM?  Is it at the Baja/Baja Sur boundary, or anywhere further north of that?  I've heard of people going down as Catavina without a problem, and the only place people that have mentioned needing the FMM is at the state line.  But this is all anecdotal, not a reading of Mexican law.

I think there is a good possibility the Mexicans have arbitrarily moved the internal frontier down to the BCN/BCS border, but I am not sure how to go about checking this.  Is there, in fact, an "Only BC" concession similar to "Only Sonora"?

I think it may be an implicit concession, as I mentioned before.  I have never heard of such a thing, and everyone who drives down to Cabo San Lucas recommends getting the FMM only, so there is the absence of a vehicle importation permit.

My Spanish is at least as bad, but in a different way--the bureaucratic stuff gives me no problems, especially when I can take it away and study it in quiet.  Conversational Spanish is not easy for me!

I could probably get 90% of the legal Spanish because its Latin origins make it nearly identical to legal English - however, it's those 10% of words that may be a silent killer.  For example, if one does not know that the word "sin" means "without", they'll plow right over it, assuming it's just some small connector as opposed to negating the entire meaning of what comes afterward!

Regarding (2) and (3), I think they are more or less the same.

I believe they are subtly different, in that Baja California Sur is covered as FMM-only.

In Sonora, for example, "Only Sonora" replaces both the FMT-1/FMM and temporary vehicle importation, at least outside a border zone lining Sonora's borders with other Mexican states.

then that's another patch we need to have on the map.  "with Only Sonora, you can go here".  And have that be the union of the state of Sonora, and the free frontier zone.

Assuming that the internal frontier on the peninsula is right at the BCN/BCS border, I think the real problem with an Ensenada-Puerto Peñasco itinerary might be issue of "Only Sonora" at the BCN border (not the US border).

then it implies that one must cross from Baja Cal to Sonora within the frontier.  We crossed on BC state route 4.  Given that we did not run into Aduana, I figure we were still within the frontier.  We crossed over at Luis B. Sanchez, which is the southernmost paved crossing between Baja Cal and Sonora.  I am quite sure that the entire frontier covers that region, since there is only one crossing south of there - at Riito, about three kilometers south of Luis B. Sanchez.  It would make sense to put the Km.30 checkpoint on the road to Golfo de Santa Clara just south of Riito - or past Golfo on the way to Puerto Penasco.  

I do not know if the state line crosses any unpaved trails south of there (or even if such trails exist!), but I hypothesize that one can go back and forth between BC and Sonora with no problems.

[Alps]

Slightly OT, but I'm getting the feeling that a Split Posts function may be as useful as Merge Posts. 

[agentsteel53]

Slightly OT, but I'm getting the feeling that a Split Posts function may be as useful as Merge Posts. 

bear with us, we're on the verge of a breakthrough! 

[agentsteel53]

places where one needs a vehicle importation permit.



I believe this is subtly incorrect, as it does not include the frontier region east of Nogales.

but it does appear to confirm that Baja is FMM-only territory all the way down to Cabo, and that one can cross between Baja and Sonora without a problem.  

the brown region contains Puerto Penasco.  Various pages say that one does not need an FMT except for a stay longer than 72 hours.

---

this page says that one needs an FMM card to go in Baja further south than Maneadero!  (La Bufadora turnoff from highway 1.)

http://www.bajabound.com/before/permits/visa.asp

I do not believe that to be correct.

[english si]

"EU" and "Schengen" are not quite exactly identical - Norway is Schengen but not EU, and I believe Great Britain is EU but not Schengen.  Complicated!  I wonder what controls I would be subjected to if I visited Great Britain on my Hungarian passport.

Hungarian citizens have freedom to enter/leave and live in the UK, due to both being part of the EU. It will mean just basic look at your passport and see if it's you, if that. My UK passport gets at most a quick glance when entering an EU country (not entered Norway/Switzerland that aren't EU, but are Schengen) and France by ferry barely bothers with that.

[J N Winkler]

Just a quick post re. Schengen and its relation to the EU.  It is true that there are non-EU countries in Schengenland, and EU countries outside of it, and it is also true that Schengen started (in 1985) as a multilateral treaty among the original "Schengen Five" which was separate from their EU membership.  However, Schengen has since been incorporated into the acquis communautaire of the EU.  This means that non-EU countries who participate in the Schengen agreement are dealing with the EU (at least indirectly) and new EU countries have to undertake to implement Schengen at some point in the future.  This is why Romania and Bulgaria (EU members since 2007) are now shown as "future" Schengen states.  The UK and Ireland are free to stay outside Schengen because they have a special opt-out.

Any EU citizen gets into and out of any EU country without passport stamps, because that is implicit in the Community right of free movement.  However, any non-EU/EEA citizen has to be stamped in and stamped out of Schengen; I have plenty of Schengen stamps in my passport to prove this.  Because they do not participate in the common border policy component of Schengen, the UK and Ireland generally stamp non-EU/EEA nationals on entry, but not exit.  As a result I have plenty of UK entry stamps but no UK exit stamps.  However, the fact that the UK does not stamp you on exit does not mean the UK does not keep a record of your leaving.  I suspect they do it through the airlines.  Also, when the UK Border Agency wants to intimidate people with dubious immigration status, they have a passport check just outside security screening at major airports like Heathrow.  I ran into such a check once and it consisted of the official flipping through my passport, but not stamping it or (I think) scanning it using the barcode scanner.

I don't think hotel checks are harmonized throughout Schengenland.  My test is whether the passport number is taken down.  I have had my passport number taken down in Germany and the Czech Republic.  I can't remember whether the same was done in Portugal, Austria, or Hungary, but I think not.  In Spain I believe it was taken down in Madrid but not Seville (possibly different regulations apply to hostels and hostales residenciales--it was at the latter that my passport number was taken down).

I have sometimes thought about handing over my Kansas driver's license rather than my passport to see how that would fly.  I have not had an opportunity to do this, however.  The reason for this is that, as soon as I give my name and state I have a reservation, the receptionists know that I am American and will be travelling with a passport, because the US does not have a national identity card like most European countries.  This means that they ask me straight away for my passport, rather than identification in general.  I can't hand over my DL instead without seeming blatantly uncooperative.

[J N Winkler]

Just a sidebar:



I have no idea if this sign is still in use--it is based on the design that was current in 2002-03.  My version is rather free (I think the original had a doubled border with blue outer edge, for one thing).

BTW, although travel guidebooks (including AAA's Mexico guidebook) invariably used the phrase "Sonora Only" in describing the program, the signs all said "Only Sonora."

[agentsteel53]

quick note re: the 72 hour rule.  How can they tell if you've been in the country for longer than 72 hours?  I don't see them being able to enforce that in any practical manner.

[J N Winkler]

In principle they could enforce the 72-hour rule through passport stamps, but I am not sure what they do if you enter (as an US citizen) on a birth certificate and photo ID (e.g., a driver's license).  (Because of WHTI, we no longer let our own citizens back in just with a birth certificate or a photo ID, but I don't think the Mexicans have tightened up in the other direction.)  However, I am not sure the Mexicans bother stamping passports for short visits just to the border zone.  In practice I suspect they don't care about the 72-hour rule as long as you stay within the frontier zone.

[agentsteel53]

yeah, within the frontier zone, you can technically enter with absolutely no identification whatsoever.  Just be careful not to get red-lighted at the border, which happens randomly to about 1 in 10 vehicles.