AARoads Forum

I'm going to go with Worcester County. Has anyone actually ever wanted to go to Worcester county?

What criteria are we using to determine "the worst?"   To me the worst in California would be Orange County.  I base my opinion on the massive urbanization, dystopian past of Long Beach, and lack of open spaces. 

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 26, 2020, 12:39:03 AM
What criteria are we using to determine "the worst?"   To me the worst in California would be Orange County.  I base my opinion on the massive urbanization, dystopian past of Long Beach, and lack of open spaces.

Just your personal least favorite.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 26, 2020, 12:39:40 AM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 26, 2020, 12:39:03 AM
What criteria are we using to determine "the worst?"   To me the worst in California would be Orange County.  I base my opinion on the massive urbanization, dystopian past of Long Beach, and lack of open spaces.

Just your personal least favorite.

Then I stand by my above post. 

Miami Dade, nuff said? :banghead:

Quote from: allniter89 on November 26, 2020, 01:08:09 AM
Miami Dade, nuff said? :banghead:

Miami-Dade has too much National Park lands.  Palm Beach County on the other hand lacks all of that, is heavily urbanized, and somehow manages to be the locale of some really horribly impoverished Sugar Cane based communities in the Everglades. 

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 26, 2020, 12:39:03 AM
To me the worst in California would be Orange County.  I base my opinion on the massive urbanization, dystopian past of Long Beach ....

Which is in Los Angeles County (one of my least favorite California counties, though there are other contenders).

For Wisconsin, I really have no idea. Waushara and Marquette seem really boring and have no scenery so I guess I'll throw them under the bus.

For Indiana I would say Howard County. Kokomo is a very drab city, and the county doesn't have any water features to provide scenery or any sizable colleges to provide atmosphere.

Quote from: oscar on November 26, 2020, 01:41:51 AM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 26, 2020, 12:39:03 AM
To me the worst in California would be Orange County.  I base my opinion on the massive urbanization, dystopian past of Long Beach ....

Which is in Los Angeles County (one of my least favorite California counties, though there are other contenders).

Thing with Los Angeles County is that it has a crap ton of open spaces.  The City basically stops at the San Gabriel Mountains and there are swathes places to find in Los Padres National Forest/Angeles National Forest.  One of the best bike rides in the state is on the Old Ridge Route and even the State Poppy Reserve in the Mojave Desert is a nice during the Spring.  Orange County cuts out pretty much all of that and has much of the same urban issues Los Angeles County does.  Some other favorites of mine Los Angeles County are Griffith Park and Dirt Mulholland Highway. 

A non urban county I would throw out there is Kings County.  Kings County has some very unappealing places like Corcoran but nothing really that bad in terms of civic landscapes.  What really is a negative is that it has almost no interesting geological features and the prominent range is probably the oil rich Kettleman Hills.  Tulare Lake would have been a huge plus but it's been completely dry for almost a century. 

For Arizona I would say La Paz County which  is in one of the least interesting parts of the Sonoran Desert (Swansea not withstanding).  The communities in La Paz County like Quartzsite are based around Snow Bird RVers instead of anything truly tangible economically.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 26, 2020, 12:35:45 AM
I'm going to go with Worcester County. Has anyone actually ever wanted to go to Worcester county?

Sure, my mom was born there and we still have family there. What's not to like?

Canyon County, Idaho without any question. Besides being a flat, dusty redneck hellhole, if you ever see 2C license plates give them a wide berth.

Quote from: empirestate on November 26, 2020, 10:52:49 AM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 26, 2020, 12:35:45 AM
I'm going to go with Worcester County. Has anyone actually ever wanted to go to Worcester county?

Sure, my mom was born there and we still have family there. What's not to like?

The places to the east are known for their history (Boston, Lowell/Lawrence/Haverhill, Salem, Lexington/Concord, Plymouth, New Bedford). Cape Cod, Martha's Vineyard, and Nantucket are obvious tourist destinations. The westernmost four counties have mountains, and the I-91 corridor is interesting for its own reasons. This leaves just Worcester County. (Norfolk County wasn't mentioned earlier, but it has a bit of coastline and is also very close to Boston.) Worcester doesn't have that many reasons to go there, and the rest of the county doesn't have anything major.

However, I have gone that way for a trip to the Clinton dam and abandoned train tunnel and Rutland, Shirley, and Pepperell covered bridges.

While there are some things in Worcester County like those in the previous paragraph, the Quabbin Reservoir, Lake Webster, and the MA/CT/RI tripoint, there are things to do in other counties, too (pretty much any town along the coast, Basketball Hall of Fame, MA 2 hairpin turn, Tanglewood, Gillette Stadium, Topsfield Fair, Six Flags New England, the three casinos, the cranberry bogs, etc.)

Quote from: 1 on November 26, 2020, 11:07:15 AM

Quote from: empirestate on November 26, 2020, 10:52:49 AM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 26, 2020, 12:35:45 AM
I'm going to go with Worcester County. Has anyone actually ever wanted to go to Worcester county?

Sure, my mom was born there and we still have family there. What's not to like?

The places to the east are known for their history (Boston, Lowell/Lawrence/Haverhill, Salem, Lexington/Concord, Plymouth, New Bedford). Cape Cod, Martha's Vineyard, and Nantucket are obvious tourist destinations. The westernmost four counties have mountains, and the I-91 corridor is interesting for its own reasons. This leaves just Worcester County. (Norfolk County wasn't mentioned earlier, but it has a bit of coastline and is also very close to Boston.) Worcester doesn't have that many reasons to go there, and the rest of the county doesn't have anything major.

Well, it has at least as many reasons as I mentioned, showing that at least some people have, at some time, wanted to go there. So the argument at hand would be to refute those reasons, either by showing that they don't exist, or that they don't actually make anybody want to go there. ;-)

Speaking as someone who did their undergrad at WPI, why yes I did want to go to the city of Worcester, within Worcester County, and yes I was quite excited about it too!  :D

Quote from: 1 on November 26, 2020, 11:07:15 AM

Quote from: empirestate on November 26, 2020, 10:52:49 AM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 26, 2020, 12:35:45 AM
I'm going to go with Worcester County. Has anyone actually ever wanted to go to Worcester county?

Sure, my mom was born there and we still have family there. What's not to like?

The places to the east are known for their history (Boston, Lowell/Lawrence/Haverhill, Salem, Lexington/Concord, Plymouth, New Bedford). Cape Cod, Martha's Vineyard, and Nantucket are obvious tourist destinations. The westernmost four counties have mountains, and the I-91 corridor is interesting for its own reasons. This leaves just Worcester County. (Norfolk County wasn't mentioned earlier, but it has a bit of coastline and is also very close to Boston.) Worcester doesn't have that many reasons to go there, and the rest of the county doesn't have anything major.

However, I have gone that way for a trip to the Clinton dam and abandoned train tunnel and Rutland, Shirley, and Pepperell covered bridges.

While there are some things in Worcester County like those in the previous paragraph, the Quabbin Reservoir Lake Webster, and the MA/CT/RI tripoint, there are things to do in other counties, too (pretty much any town along the coast, Basketball Hall of Fame, MA 2 hairpin turn, Tanglewood, Gillette Stadium, Topsfield Fair, Six Flags New England, the three casinos, the cranberry bogs, etc.)

Norfolk is mostly suburbs, I didn't say it because it has Gillette stadium and I live here.

Worst county as far as what?

Worst as far as overall worst such as the county pretty much sucks.

For Michigan, I'll go with Wayne County; Detroit is a shithole and so are most of the inner ring suburbs like River Rouge, Ecorse, Lincoln Park and of course Highland Park which mine as well be part of the city of Detroit anyway along with it's neighbor Hamtramck.

For Indiana, I'll go with Lake County. The southern part of the county like around Lowell and in that area isn't bad but it features cities like Gary, Hammond, Whiting, East Chicago, Merrillville and so on. Some of those areas aren't as bad as others but they aren't the best areas for sure. Porter County is a little better but you still have the same vibe as Lake County I think.

Worcester County is pretty bad.  Worcester has been a rustbucket city since I've been alive.  I visited the Blackstone River Valley and Purgatory Chasm recently and people have graffitied the places.  It's like Worcester isn't enough to ruin, they have to go out and ruin state parks and the like in the area.

Quote from: Flint1979 on November 26, 2020, 12:32:45 PM
Worst as far as overall worst such as the county pretty much sucks.

For Michigan, I'll go with Wayne County; Detroit is a shithole and so are most of the inner ring suburbs like River Rouge, Ecorse, Lincoln Park and of course Highland Park which mine as well be part of the city of Detroit anyway along with it's neighbor Hamtramck.

For Indiana, I'll go with Lake County. The southern part of the county like around Lowell and in that area isn't bad but it features cities like Gary, Hammond, Whiting, East Chicago, Merrillville and so on. Some of those areas aren't as bad as others but they aren't the best areas for sure. Porter County is a little better but you still have the same vibe as Lake County I think.

While by any objective criteria for Wayne County is going to make it the pick it does have some stuff going for it if you're into ruins/ghost towning and Arc Deco.  Belle Isle isn't terrible and all the sports teams are now in downtown Detroit again.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 26, 2020, 12:43:18 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on November 26, 2020, 12:32:45 PM
Worst as far as overall worst such as the county pretty much sucks.

For Michigan, I'll go with Wayne County; Detroit is a shithole and so are most of the inner ring suburbs like River Rouge, Ecorse, Lincoln Park and of course Highland Park which mine as well be part of the city of Detroit anyway along with it's neighbor Hamtramck.

For Indiana, I'll go with Lake County. The southern part of the county like around Lowell and in that area isn't bad but it features cities like Gary, Hammond, Whiting, East Chicago, Merrillville and so on. Some of those areas aren't as bad as others but they aren't the best areas for sure. Porter County is a little better but you still have the same vibe as Lake County I think.

While by any objective criteria for Wayne County is going to make it the pick it does have some stuff going for it if you're into ruins/ghost towning and Arc Deco.  Belle Isle isn't terrible and all the sports teams are now in downtown Detroit again.

Yeah it does have some big city life to it. I haven't been to Belle Isle since it became a State Park, I use to drive around the island all the time. I do like how the sports teams are all downtown now though and the Lions and Pistons former venues out in the suburbs have both now been demolished.

Quote from: Flint1979 on November 26, 2020, 12:32:45 PM
Worst as far as overall worst such as the county pretty much sucks.

For Michigan, I'll go with Wayne County; Detroit is a shithole and so are most of the inner ring suburbs like River Rouge, Ecorse, Lincoln Park and of course Highland Park which mine as well be part of the city of Detroit anyway along with it's neighbor Hamtramck.

For Indiana, I'll go with Lake County. The southern part of the county like around Lowell and in that area isn't bad but it features cities like Gary, Hammond, Whiting, East Chicago, Merrillville and so on. Some of those areas aren't as bad as others but they aren't the best areas for sure. Porter County is a little better but you still have the same vibe as Lake County I think.

Not sure when is the last time you've wandered off the interstates in Lake County, but the Whiting/East Chicago/Hammond area has undergone some redevelopment recently, and if Illinois keeps raising its taxes, that area is primed for a real resurgence.

Quote from: Flint1979 on November 26, 2020, 12:21:35 PM
Worst county as far as what?

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 26, 2020, 12:39:40 AM
Just your personal least favorite.

For New York, it's objectively Orleans County (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Orleans+County,+NY/@43.3312541,-78.4016577,10z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89d41105a0f5cb23:0xc14fea72db78047a!8m2!3d43.4088624!4d-78.2020387!5m1!1e1).

I'm not sure there's any other counties you could make a case for. Perhaps neighboring Niagara County (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Niagara+County,+NY/@43.1998734,-78.9301944,10.25z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89d4849aae8f97a9:0xeda2e44e49f65b75!8m2!3d43.3119496!4d-78.7476208!5m1!1e1), although that at least has several cool State Parks including Niagara Falls (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Niagara+Falls+State+Park/@43.0827595,-79.0679322,15.17z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89d342e2ed27a75d:0xd556b548abcc0817!8m2!3d43.0837679!4d-79.0639955!5m1!1e1) and Whirlpool State Park (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Whirlpool+State+Park/@43.1175054,-79.0686195,14.62z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x15ce41c53b8ca062!8m2!3d43.1203055!4d-79.0650469!5m1!1e1). Lewis County (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lewis+County,+NY/@43.8183273,-76.0408052,9z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x89d89653cc41534f:0x9741799e3c907a52!8m2!3d43.840112!4d-75.4344727!5m1!1e1) handily wins "most nondescript", but that's quite different from being outright bad, much less the worst. Genesee County (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Genesee+County,+NY/@42.9837311,-78.3413983,10.75z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89d3f105c087cadd:0x3bb86fc9ded34bbb!8m2!3d42.9837843!4d-78.1564432!5m1!1e1), meanwhile, at least has some quality farmland and countryside, plus the Thruway. Wayne County (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Wayne+County,+NY/@43.1368819,-77.3607071,10z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89d722fb1aa17da3:0x80be1ddf921081e5!8m2!3d43.2020024!4d-77.010385!5m1!1e1), which is similar to Orleans on paper, has a Lake Ontario shoreline that's far superior for both beaches and scenery. And the other 57 counties are in my opinion either too scenic, too diverse, or both.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 26, 2020, 12:39:40 AM
Just your personal least favorite.

Montgomery County, Virginia.

Robeson. Anyone who knows Lumberton won't need an explanation. That place has an average IQ of 60.

Quote from: cabiness42 on November 26, 2020, 12:59:28 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on November 26, 2020, 12:32:45 PM
Worst as far as overall worst such as the county pretty much sucks.

For Michigan, I'll go with Wayne County; Detroit is a shithole and so are most of the inner ring suburbs like River Rouge, Ecorse, Lincoln Park and of course Highland Park which mine as well be part of the city of Detroit anyway along with it's neighbor Hamtramck.

For Indiana, I'll go with Lake County. The southern part of the county like around Lowell and in that area isn't bad but it features cities like Gary, Hammond, Whiting, East Chicago, Merrillville and so on. Some of those areas aren't as bad as others but they aren't the best areas for sure. Porter County is a little better but you still have the same vibe as Lake County I think.

Not sure when is the last time you've wandered off the interstates in Lake County, but the Whiting/East Chicago/Hammond area has undergone some redevelopment recently, and if Illinois keeps raising its taxes, that area is primed for a real resurgence.

Probably about 3 or so years ago. When I think of Whiting I think of the huge BP refinery there which just brings it down I think anyway. East Chicago never seemed that nice to me. Hammond seemed fine when I've been there and honestly I've driven through Gary and never seemed out of place or scared or anything.

MN: Wright, Sherburne, Benton, Morrison

In Kentucky, it's Jefferson, no contest. For a variety of reasons.

Quote from: 1995hoo on November 26, 2020, 01:50:01 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 26, 2020, 12:39:40 AM
Just your personal least favorite.

Montgomery County, Virginia.

Doesn't have anything to do with the college located there, does it?

(Hint: one of these is fictional)

Virginia: Richmond County. Were they intentionally trying to be confusing?
New Mexico: Los Alamos County. Why do we need a tiny county hiding between regular-sized ones?
Idaho: Taft County. Belongs in Montana, and is almost an exclave.
Texas: Kenedy County. Learn to spell.
Florida: Lee County. Most populous county in the United States that's solid red, and named after a Confederate.
Iowa: Des Moines County. Is this another attempt at confusion?
Pennsylvania: Bedford County. Breezewood.
North Carolina: Scotland County. Lost it in 2020.
Georgia: Glascock County. Demographically misplaced.
Alabama: Tuscaloosa County. Colleges are for academics, not sports.
Utah: Daggett County. Seriously, you couldn't be part of Uintah County?
Arizona: Maricopa County. Stop moving there. You're all going to run out of water one day, and why do you want to live in 120° heat anyway?
Kansas: God Hates Shawnee County.
Maryland: Harford County. Again, learn to spell.
Connecticut: Fairfield County. Shouldn't be part of New England, even though it is.

Quote from: 1 on November 26, 2020, 09:41:03 PM
Maryland: Harford County. Again, learn to spell.

Named after Henry Harford.  Spelling is not the issue here.

Quote from: 1 on November 26, 2020, 09:41:03 PM
New Mexico: Los Alamos County. Why do we need a tiny county hiding between regular-sized ones?

Originally, a Federal enclave for the secret Manhattan Project. Now, ridiculously prosperous compared to its neighbors, with all the nuclear scientists who live there. It has really high quality of life rankings (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Alamos_County,_New_Mexico#Quality_of_life), including very low poverty rates.

A somewhat similar criticism can be made for Hawaii's Kalawao County, which has among the smallest populations and land areas of U.S. counties, and indeed is so small it doesn't show up on many maps. OTOH, it has the most saints per square mile in the U.S. (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=7919.msg180589#msg180589)

Quote from: 1 on November 26, 2020, 09:41:03 PM
(Hint: one of these is fictional)

Virginia: Richmond County. Were they intentionally trying to be confusing?
New Mexico: Los Alamos County. Why do we need a tiny county hiding between regular-sized ones?
Idaho: Taft County. Belongs in Montana, and is almost an exclave.
Texas: Kenedy County. Learn to spell.
Florida: Lee County. Most populous county in the United States that's solid red, and named after a Confederate.
Iowa: Des Moines County. Is this another attempt at confusion?
Pennsylvania: Bedford County. Breezewood.
North Carolina: Scotland County. Lost it in 2020.
Georgia: Glascock County. Demographically misplaced.
Alabama: Tuscaloosa County. Colleges are for academics, not sports.
Utah: Daggett County. Seriously, you couldn't be part of Uintah County?
Arizona: Maricopa County. Stop moving there. You're all going to run out of water one day, and why do you want to live in 120° heat anyway?
Kansas: God Hates Shawnee County.
Maryland: Harford County. Again, learn to spell.
Connecticut: Fairfield County. Shouldn't be part of New England, even though it is.

Taft county is fictional

Quote from: webny99 on November 26, 2020, 01:38:17 PM
For New York, it's objectively Orleans County (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Orleans+County,+NY/@43.3312541,-78.4016577,10z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89d41105a0f5cb23:0xc14fea72db78047a!8m2!3d43.4088624!4d-78.2020387!5m1!1e1).

I'm not sure there's any other counties you could make a case for. Perhaps neighboring Niagara County (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Niagara+County,+NY/@43.1998734,-78.9301944,10.25z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89d4849aae8f97a9:0xeda2e44e49f65b75!8m2!3d43.3119496!4d-78.7476208!5m1!1e1), although that at least has several cool State Parks including Niagara Falls (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Niagara+Falls+State+Park/@43.0827595,-79.0679322,15.17z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89d342e2ed27a75d:0xd556b548abcc0817!8m2!3d43.0837679!4d-79.0639955!5m1!1e1) and Whirlpool State Park (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Whirlpool+State+Park/@43.1175054,-79.0686195,14.62z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x15ce41c53b8ca062!8m2!3d43.1203055!4d-79.0650469!5m1!1e1). Lewis County (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lewis+County,+NY/@43.8183273,-76.0408052,9z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x89d89653cc41534f:0x9741799e3c907a52!8m2!3d43.840112!4d-75.4344727!5m1!1e1) handily wins "most nondescript", but that's quite different from being outright bad, much less the worst. Genesee County (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Genesee+County,+NY/@42.9837311,-78.3413983,10.75z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89d3f105c087cadd:0x3bb86fc9ded34bbb!8m2!3d42.9837843!4d-78.1564432!5m1!1e1), meanwhile, at least has some quality farmland and countryside, plus the Thruway. Wayne County (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Wayne+County,+NY/@43.1368819,-77.3607071,10z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89d722fb1aa17da3:0x80be1ddf921081e5!8m2!3d43.2020024!4d-77.010385!5m1!1e1), which is similar to Orleans on paper, has a Lake Ontario shoreline that's far superior for both beaches and scenery. And the other 57 counties are in my opinion either too scenic, too diverse, or both.

"Objectively" must mean something different to you than it does to Merriam-Webster.

Quote from: 1 on November 26, 2020, 09:41:03 PM
Idaho: Taft County. Belongs in Montana, and is almost an exclave.

The what

Quote from: Rothman on November 27, 2020, 12:13:19 AM

Quote from: webny99 on November 26, 2020, 01:38:17 PM
For New York, it's objectively Orleans County (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Orleans+County,+NY/@43.3312541,-78.4016577,10z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89d41105a0f5cb23:0xc14fea72db78047a!8m2!3d43.4088624!4d-78.2020387!5m1!1e1).
...

"Objectively" must mean something different to you than it does to Merriam-Webster.

Hmmm... "in a way that is not dependent on the mind for existence; actually" sounds about right, but if you or anyone would like to make the case for another county, I am here for it.

Quote from: oscar on November 26, 2020, 10:30:05 PM

Quote from: 1 on November 26, 2020, 09:41:03 PM
New Mexico: Los Alamos County. Why do we need a tiny county hiding between regular-sized ones?

Originally, a Federal enclave for the secret Manhattan Project. Now, ridiculously prosperous compared to its neighbors, with all the nuclear scientists who live there. It has really high quality of life rankings (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Alamos_County,_New_Mexico#Quality_of_life), including very low poverty rates.

I decided to turn around before the security checkpoints, between not understanding their purpose as well as having out-of-state plates along with bins of crap I hadn't unloaded from a move that would probably look very appetizing to bored guards.

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on November 27, 2020, 02:27:37 AM

Quote from: oscar on November 26, 2020, 10:30:05 PM
Originally, a Federal enclave for the secret Manhattan Project. Now, ridiculously prosperous compared to its neighbors, with all the nuclear scientists who live there. It has really high quality of life rankings (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Alamos_County,_New_Mexico#Quality_of_life), including very low poverty rates.

I decided to turn around before the security checkpoints, between not understanding their purpose as well as having out-of-state plates along with bins of crap I hadn't unloaded from a move that would probably look very appetizing to bored guards.

Which are south of the "civilian" part of Los Alamos. My most recent visit, in summer 2019, I entered the county from the east on NM 502. I only encountered (and like you, was initially confused by) the Los Alamos National Laboratory checkpoints when I drove south on NM 501 toward the Bandelier National Monument. It took me a few tries to figure out that through NM 501 traffic got waved through the checkpoints, so it could pass through LANL without any other stops.

Quote from: webny99 on November 27, 2020, 12:31:49 AM

Quote from: Rothman on November 27, 2020, 12:13:19 AM

Quote from: webny99 on November 26, 2020, 01:38:17 PM
For New York, it's objectively Orleans County (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Orleans+County,+NY/@43.3312541,-78.4016577,10z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89d41105a0f5cb23:0xc14fea72db78047a!8m2!3d43.4088624!4d-78.2020387!5m1!1e1).
...

"Objectively" must mean something different to you than it does to Merriam-Webster.

Hmmm... "in a way that is not dependent on the mind for existence; actually" sounds about right, but if you or anyone would like to make the case for another county, I am here for it.

Well, what's the case for Orleans, to start with? What are the objective data?

Quote from: empirestate on November 27, 2020, 06:45:44 PM

Quote from: webny99 on November 27, 2020, 12:31:49 AM

Quote from: Rothman on November 27, 2020, 12:13:19 AM

Quote from: webny99 on November 26, 2020, 01:38:17 PM
For New York, it's objectively Orleans County (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Orleans+County,+NY/@43.3312541,-78.4016577,10z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89d41105a0f5cb23:0xc14fea72db78047a!8m2!3d43.4088624!4d-78.2020387!5m1!1e1).
...

"Objectively" must mean something different to you than it does to Merriam-Webster.

Hmmm... "in a way that is not dependent on the mind for existence; actually" sounds about right, but if you or anyone would like to make the case for another county, I am here for it.

Well, what's the case for Orleans, to start with? What are the objective data?

I just checked if it's losing population. It is. (So could other counties, though.)

Are we supposed to create something like kurumi's "most important 2di" list using criteria and a Python script?

Fairfield.  Bunch of NY wannabes.  Many forms of media assume the other 7 counties of our state don't even exist; those " Best x in every state"  features always choose somewhere in Fairfield County. 

Fairfax

CA's worst county in socio-economics, quality of life and ecological or environmental issues is Imperial, facing the AZ state line (Colorado River which is more popular than Salton Sea now) and the Mexican border (winter is the best time when Canadians and northern states snowbirds are there). I only been there once to visit Mexicali (and Calexico, the county/valley's largest town) and El Centro (county seat, near the town with the name Imperial) and not too exciting, just a visit to another nation. Largely rural, it does have a sizable population between 150-250,000 (varies from season to season, esp. when farm workers are there) and the closest big cities are Indio CA, San Diego, Yuma AZ and of course, Mexicali (capital of Baja California state).

St. Louis City. And yes, I've been to the likes of Shannon and Reynolds Counties.

Someone on page 1 said the OC in CA is the worst county...uh, the one with Disneyland? And CA's "US federal government" capital (Laguna Niguel between downtown L.A. and downtown San Diego). And high real estate values despite how crowded the county has become in 6 decades? I don't know I want to be near any amenities or live out in the quiet countryside. In the 1950s, Orange county was a combination of "small town" rural and all of a sudden, sub-urban to now dominate the county.

Quote from: STLmapboy on November 27, 2020, 11:22:06 PM
St. Louis City. And yes, I've been to the likes of Shannon and Reynolds Counties.

Is all of St. Louis really that bad? I've always thought it was mostly the north side of the city that's pretty bad.

Camden County, NJ

Quote from: Desert Man on November 28, 2020, 12:00:52 AM
Someone on page 1 said the OC in CA is the worst county...uh, the one with Disneyland? And CA's "US federal government" capital (Laguna Niguel between downtown L.A. and downtown San Diego). And high real estate values despite how crowded the county has become in 6 decades? I don't know I want to be near any amenities or live out in the quiet countryside. In the 1950s, Orange county was a combination of "small town" rural and all of a sudden, sub-urban to now dominate the county.

Yes, the criterion is personal opinion as described by the OP.  That being the case suburban Hell-Scape and gluttony filled theme park isn't my bag, so Orange County it is. 

Quote from: 1 on November 27, 2020, 06:47:36 PM

Quote from: empirestate on November 27, 2020, 06:45:44 PM

Quote from: webny99 on November 27, 2020, 12:31:49 AM

Quote from: Rothman on November 27, 2020, 12:13:19 AM

Quote from: webny99 on November 26, 2020, 01:38:17 PM
For New York, it's objectively Orleans County (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Orleans+County,+NY/@43.3312541,-78.4016577,10z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89d41105a0f5cb23:0xc14fea72db78047a!8m2!3d43.4088624!4d-78.2020387!5m1!1e1).
...

"Objectively" must mean something different to you than it does to Merriam-Webster.

Hmmm... "in a way that is not dependent on the mind for existence; actually" sounds about right, but if you or anyone would like to make the case for another county, I am here for it.

Well, what's the case for Orleans, to start with? What are the objective data?

I just checked if it's losing population. It is. (So could other counties, though.)

Orleans is one of many Upstate counties that are losing population. As for why it's the worst, its Lake Ontario shoreline is terrible (zero beaches of note), it's run-down, redneck, economically depressed, and there's no scenery to speak of. To give an idea, here (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.2533132,-77.9920922,3a,90y,41.55h,91.44t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s0R57iX1_d5nQpVofVPG21g!2e0!5s20181001T000000!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1) is your welcome to Orleans County on NY 104. Albion and Medina, meanwhile, are consistently ranked among the most redneck places in the state... and for Upstate NY, that's saying something.

As I mentioned upthread, all other counties at least have a number of things going for them, be it scenery, attractions, quality of life, a regional economic hub, or otherwise. Orleans is a true eyesore that doesn't have any of those things. That makes it the worst.

Hard to pick one for Utah because counties are generally big enough that they include at least one neat city, geographical feature, or cool scenic drive.

But if I had to pick one, I'd probably go with Millard. Huge county that is pretty much just desert with two boring towns and generic mountain ranges. Sanpete and Rich are up there as well, but Bear Lake and Skyline Drive save those from "worst" status in my opinion.

Quote from: Flint1979 on November 26, 2020, 12:32:45 PM
Worst as far as overall worst such as the county pretty much sucks.

For Michigan, I'll go with Wayne County; Detroit is a shithole and so are most of the inner ring suburbs like River Rouge, Ecorse, Lincoln Park and of course Highland Park which mine as well be part of the city of Detroit anyway along with it's neighbor Hamtramck.

Wayne County also has Inkster, the city so shitty that when the school district was shut down, it was split in such a way that Inkster has no schools within its boundaries. Also, most of Detroit's "nice" suburbs are in Oakland and Macomb counties (with the notable exception of the Grosse Pointes, which are in far eastern Wayne County)

Going to go Kiowa County, CO.  Nothing scenic, no interesting roads, no interesting cities.   The least populous county that isn't in the mountains.

Chris

Quote from: ftballfan on November 28, 2020, 03:04:59 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on November 26, 2020, 12:32:45 PM
Worst as far as overall worst such as the county pretty much sucks.

For Michigan, I'll go with Wayne County; Detroit is a shithole and so are most of the inner ring suburbs like River Rouge, Ecorse, Lincoln Park and of course Highland Park which mine as well be part of the city of Detroit anyway along with it's neighbor Hamtramck.

Wayne County also has Inkster, the city so shitty that when the school district was shut down, it was split in such a way that Inkster has no schools within its boundaries. Also, most of Detroit's "nice" suburbs are in Oakland and Macomb counties (with the notable exception of the Grosse Pointes, which are in far eastern Wayne County)

Inkster is indeed a shithole and there are probably a few more Wayne County suburbs that fit the bill. I don't think Dearborn, Dearborn Heights or Redford Township are all that great either. Although the western part of the county like Northville, Plymouth, Canton, Van Buren Township then the southern end around Flat Rock, Gibraltar, Brownstown Township and Grosse Ile are nice for the most part. Harper Woods is another shithole that comes to mind. Out of the Grosse Pointe's I honestly would say Grosse Pointe Farms is the best one with Grosse Pointe or Grosse Pointe Park being the worst of the Grosse Pointe's. Harper Woods changed big time in the 2000 decade.

Quote from: ... on November 28, 2020, 02:38:17 PM
Orleans is one of many Upstate counties that are losing population. As for why it's the worst, its Lake Ontario shoreline is terrible (zero beaches of note), it's run-down, redneck, economically depressed, and there's no scenery to speak of. To give an idea, here (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.2533132,-77.9920922,3a,90y,41.55h,91.44t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s0R57iX1_d5nQpVofVPG21g!2e0!5s20181001T000000!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1) is your welcome to Orleans County on NY 104. Albion and Medina, meanwhile, are consistently ranked among the most redneck places in the state... and for Upstate NY, that's saying something.

As I mentioned upthread, all other counties at least have a number of things going for them, be it scenery, attractions, quality of life, a regional economic hub, or otherwise. Orleans is a true eyesore that doesn't have any of those things. That makes it the worst.

Objective, though? (Off-topic, since the question is about personal preference...but since you did offer...) ;-)

Milwaukee County hands down. The southern 1/3rd of county is ok Oak Creek and Franklin aren't bad most of the rest of the county is a shithole.

Quote from: empirestate on November 29, 2020, 12:52:08 AM

Quote from: ... on November 28, 2020, 02:38:17 PM
Orleans is one of many Upstate counties that are losing population. As for why it's the worst, its Lake Ontario shoreline is terrible (zero beaches of note), it's run-down, redneck, economically depressed, and there's no scenery to speak of. To give an idea, here (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.2533132,-77.9920922,3a,90y,41.55h,91.44t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s0R57iX1_d5nQpVofVPG21g!2e0!5s20181001T000000!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1) is your welcome to Orleans County on NY 104. Albion and Medina, meanwhile, are consistently ranked among the most redneck places in the state... and for Upstate NY, that's saying something.

As I mentioned upthread, all other counties at least have a number of things going for them, be it scenery, attractions, quality of life, a regional economic hub, or otherwise. Orleans is a true eyesore that doesn't have any of those things. That makes it the worst.

Objective, though? (Off-topic, since the question is about personal preference...but since you did offer...) ;-)

What's not objective about that?

Quote from: webny99 on November 30, 2020, 03:24:13 PM

Quote from: empirestate on November 29, 2020, 12:52:08 AM

Quote from: ... on November 28, 2020, 02:38:17 PM
Orleans is one of many Upstate counties that are losing population. As for why it's the worst, its Lake Ontario shoreline is terrible (zero beaches of note), it's run-down, redneck, economically depressed, and there's no scenery to speak of. To give an idea, here (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.2533132,-77.9920922,3a,90y,41.55h,91.44t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s0R57iX1_d5nQpVofVPG21g!2e0!5s20181001T000000!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1) is your welcome to Orleans County on NY 104. Albion and Medina, meanwhile, are consistently ranked among the most redneck places in the state... and for Upstate NY, that's saying something.

As I mentioned upthread, all other counties at least have a number of things going for them, be it scenery, attractions, quality of life, a regional economic hub, or otherwise. Orleans is a true eyesore that doesn't have any of those things. That makes it the worst.

Objective, though? (Off-topic, since the question is about personal preference...but since you did offer...) ;-)

What's not objective about that?

If it's objective, there's no possibility of disagreement.

Take, for example, a two-person contest that is judged. Even if one person clearly did better than the other, and there's no doubt about it, it's still subjective. For it to be objective, it would need to be scored on criteria (like football), timed (like a running race), or have rules that define a winner and loser (like chess).

Anyone who disagrees with a true objective statement is factually incorrect.

Quote from: 1 on November 30, 2020, 03:31:31 PM
If it's objective, there's no possibility of disagreement.

Take, for example, a two-person contest that is judged. Even if one person clearly did better than the other, and there's no doubt about it, it's still subjective. For it to be objective, it would need to be scored on criteria (like football), timed (like a running race), or have rules that define a winner and loser (like chess).

OK, so perhaps it is not objective in the literal sense, and it doesn't really matter anyway because the thread is about our own preferences. However, Orleans County possesses many, if not all, of the characteristics that most people would consider undesirable, and close to zero or zero characteristics that most people would consider desirable.

No, it cannot be proven, and people could disagree, but it's about as close as you can possibly come to being true without being provably true, comparable to a statement like "Ronald Reagan was a better candidate than Walter Mondale" (not to bring in politics... just to cherry pick an obvious comparison).

Now, the difference is that a slightly revised statement such as "The American people preferred Ronald Reagan over Walter Mondale" is objective, because we have an actual data point (the 1984 election). "The people of New York rank Orleans County as worst in the state" is not objective, because we don't have an actual data point, however, my strong suspicion is that if we did have a data point, it would handily prove that statement true.

Some people, for example, love living in redneck country.

Heck, pretty much all the things you said about Orleans County could also be said of the Kansas county I grew up in, yet many people who live there are fiercely proud of where they live.  The slogan of the county seat when I lived there, for example, was "The good life".  Other than my not having been popular in school, I'm happy to have grown up there.

Maybe Madison County, Arkansas, home of Orvall Faubus (from Huntsville). Very backwater, but they do have a Walmart and Dollar Tree. Downtown Huntsville is all but dead since US 412 goes around now, and AR 23 is not exactly a quality road. It's more point A to Point B, but not exactly for long excursions.  Madison also hase lots of "2 mile highways" that take you into the boonies then turn to mud.

Quote from: kphoger on November 30, 2020, 04:23:14 PM
Some people, for example, love living in redneck country.

Heck, pretty much all the things you said about Orleans County could also be said of the Kansas county I grew up in, yet many people who live there are fiercely proud of where they live.  The slogan of the county seat when I lived there, for example, was "The good life".  Other than my not having been popular in school, I'm happy to have grown up there.

Imagine the outcry here if someone complained about particular counties because they were at the opposite end of the spectrum from "redneck"?

Quote from: SectorZ on November 30, 2020, 06:30:23 PM

Quote from: kphoger on November 30, 2020, 04:23:14 PM
Some people, for example, love living in redneck country.

Heck, pretty much all the things you said about Orleans County could also be said of the Kansas county I grew up in, yet many people who live there are fiercely proud of where they live.  The slogan of the county seat when I lived there, for example, was "The good life".  Other than my not having been popular in school, I'm happy to have grown up there.

Imagine the outcry here if someone complained about particular counties because they were at the opposite end of the spectrum from "redneck"?

Washington County, AR ;)

Quote from: US71 on November 30, 2020, 06:36:47 PM

Quote from: SectorZ on November 30, 2020, 06:30:23 PM

Quote from: kphoger on November 30, 2020, 04:23:14 PM
Some people, for example, love living in redneck country.

Heck, pretty much all the things you said about Orleans County could also be said of the Kansas county I grew up in, yet many people who live there are fiercely proud of where they live.  The slogan of the county seat when I lived there, for example, was "The good life".  Other than my not having been popular in school, I'm happy to have grown up there.

Imagine the outcry here if someone complained about particular counties because they were at the opposite end of the spectrum from "redneck"?

Washington County, AR ;)

Washington County voted for Trump. It is in no way on the opposite end of redneck.

Quote from: 1 on November 30, 2020, 06:41:21 PM
Washington County voted for Trump. It is in no way on the opposite end of redneck.

Just barely over 50%. Trump's vote share exceeded 80% in some other Arkansas counties, and was over 62% statewide.

It's all relative.

Quote from: 1 on November 30, 2020, 06:41:21 PM

Quote from: US71 on November 30, 2020, 06:36:47 PM

Quote from: SectorZ on November 30, 2020, 06:30:23 PM

Quote from: kphoger on November 30, 2020, 04:23:14 PM
Some people, for example, love living in redneck country.

Heck, pretty much all the things you said about Orleans County could also be said of the Kansas county I grew up in, yet many people who live there are fiercely proud of where they live.  The slogan of the county seat when I lived there, for example, was "The good life".  Other than my not having been popular in school, I'm happy to have grown up there.

Imagine the outcry here if someone complained about particular counties because they were at the opposite end of the spectrum from "redneck"?

Washington County, AR ;)

Washington County voted for Trump. It is in no way on the opposite end of redneck.

I lived there for over 20 years. There are a few corners that may be "backwards", but over all it isn't.

Quote from: kphoger on November 30, 2020, 04:23:14 PM
Heck, pretty much all the things you said about Orleans County could also be said of the Kansas county I grew up in, yet many people who live there are fiercely proud of where they live.  The slogan of the county seat when I lived there, for example, was "The good life".  Other than my not having been popular in school, I'm happy to have grown up there.

I totally understand being proud of where you live. I'm that way myself. I think we've all got a streak of it. But I imagine rural western Kansas is superior to rural western New York in a host of ways: better weather, better atmosphere, better scenery, friendlier people, and overall just a higher quality of life, even if it's still "redneck" by definition.

I've never been to Kansas, but I'd easily take the rural areas of North Dakota and Minnesota that I'm familiar with over Orleans County any day of the week, and that's not a "grass is always greener" argument because I've spent plenty of time in both areas.

Quote from: webny99 on November 30, 2020, 09:10:38 PM

Quote from: kphoger on November 30, 2020, 04:23:14 PM
Heck, pretty much all the things you said about Orleans County could also be said of the Kansas county I grew up in, yet many people who live there are fiercely proud of where they live.  The slogan of the county seat when I lived there, for example, was "The good life".  Other than my not having been popular in school, I'm happy to have grown up there.

I totally understand being proud of where you live. I'm that way myself. I think we've all got a streak of it. But I imagine rural western Kansas is superior to rural western New York in a host of ways: better weather, better atmosphere, better scenery, friendlier people, and overall just a higher quality of life, even if it's still "redneck" by definition.

I've never been to Kansas, but I'd easily take the rural areas of North Dakota and Minnesota that I'm familiar with over Orleans County any day of the week, and that's not a "grass is always greener" argument because I've spent plenty of time in both areas.

Another point: Orleans County isn't that far (relatively speaking) from Toronto and not that far (again relatively speaking) from the major cities on the east coast. It's also not far from the Adirondacks or the Great Lakes.

Kansas doesn't have those adjacencies.

Quote from: webny99 on November 30, 2020, 09:10:38 PM
rural areas of North Dakota and Minnesota

COVID alert!

Quote from: 1 on November 30, 2020, 09:12:26 PM

Quote from: webny99 on November 30, 2020, 09:10:38 PM
rural areas of North Dakota and Minnesota

COVID alert!

Oh, I haven't been there recently. But yes, it is quite bad in those areas right now.

For Ohio; Morrow.

For Missouri, in my opinion it's St. Louis County. You can drive from well kept western suburbs to run down, burned out lots in a short distance.

For Massachusetts it's a toss-up between Bristol and Plymouth Counties. Bristol County is home to four decaying cities that the post-industrial era has left in the backwater. Plymouth County has one such city.

Quote from: SectorZ on November 30, 2020, 06:30:23 PM

Quote from: kphoger on November 30, 2020, 04:23:14 PM
Some people, for example, love living in redneck country.

Heck, pretty much all the things you said about Orleans County could also be said of the Kansas county I grew up in, yet many people who live there are fiercely proud of where they live.  The slogan of the county seat when I lived there, for example, was "The good life".  Other than my not having been popular in school, I'm happy to have grown up there.

Imagine the outcry here if someone complained about particular counties because they were at the opposite end of the spectrum from "redneck"?

You mean like my dislike for Jefferson County, Ky.?

I live in what would be considered a "redneck" county. Small, rural, in the hills. High poverty rate. No four-lane roads, an hour from the nearest Walmart Supercenter, a half-hour from the nearest hospital, and so on. Yet I don't think my county is the worst, nor do I think that of any of the similar counties in my area of the state, even the ones that are farther in the mountains. My disdain is for the state's largest county -- the one where the residents brag that they're the economic engine of my state, full of elitist liberals and yet also home to violent inner-city areas that make rural Appalachia look positively civilized and wealthy. I dislike Louisville for many reasons -- the attitude, the politics, the traffic, the feeling that I get that I am alone and isolated anytime I attend a conference in a major hotel downtown. I feel more isolated at the Galt House than I do living somewhere that's 30 to 60 minutes away from most everything other than what's available in a small town.

Well, there are two somewhat divergent directions that you could run with "opposite of redneck". The most obvious is "urban and diverse", which is what I think SectorZ was going for, but "wealthy and white-collar" also works, and is in many respects more accurate.

There are very few places that are all of those things at once, so maybe a county like Jefferson with an urban core and plenty of suburbia is as close as you're going to get to having at least some of all of those features. I would tend to think of a place like Northern Virginia, or perhaps Westchester County, NY; certainly not anywhere in the Rust Belt, with the possible exceptions being contemporary metro areas like Indianapolis or Columbus.

This thread is a sterling example of how it's difficult to find the "worst" anything because of our own subjective tastes.

I personally like Jefferson County, KY but I wouldn't begrudge someone who hates it. I know that there are places I like that others might consider terrible. I just wish that Virginia could keep a Jefferson County. We've created two and both left for other states.

Quote from: webny99 on December 01, 2020, 03:46:44 PM
Well, there are two somewhat divergent directions that you could run with "opposite of redneck". The most obvious is "urban and diverse", which is what I think SectorZ was going for, but "wealthy and white-collar" also works, and is in many respects more accurate.

There are very few places that are all of those things at once, so maybe a county like Jefferson with an urban core and plenty of suburbia is as close as you're going to get to having at least some of all of those features. I would tend to think of a place like Northern Virginia, or perhaps Westchester County, NY; certainly not anywhere in the Rust Belt, with the possible exceptions being contemporary metro areas like Indianapolis or Columbus.

Maybe Needham, MA. Not a lot of rednecks here.

AFAIK, no one has said anything about Illinois. So I'm just going to come out and say it:

Cook County is the worst.

You could be in Chicago which has plenty of issues from violent crimes to high taxes and strict regulations to political corruption (and also a cringeworthy mayor... that whole thing Lightfoot did for Halloween, dressing up as the "rona destroyer" was so dumb.). There's also plenty of run-down suburbs in the south. And the suburbs up north are nice in terms of overall quality of life, but many of the people living there are incredibly entitled or arrogant.

Also, the kids that the parents "raise" are for the most part the absolute worst. Morality and decency? What are those? Nah, forget that. Just whore yourself out for the entire world and get drunk 24/7 while posting vapid softcore-porn selfies on Instagram and Snapchat to get hundreds of useless likes and copy-paste "urrr soooo hoooot" comments.

I know what I've said is personal opinion, but this thread's definition of "worst county" is vague, so it's valid in my eyes. If you disagree, :clap:.

Quote from: The Nature Boy on December 01, 2020, 03:49:36 PM
This thread is a sterling example of how it's difficult to find the "worst" anything because of our own subjective tastes.

Except when it comes to Kiowa County, CO.  Everyone would objectively say it sucks.  :)

Chris

Quote from: JoePCool14 on December 01, 2020, 06:28:00 PM
AFAIK, no one has said anything about Illinois. So I'm just going to come out and say it:

Cook County is the worst.

I don't really dislike any county in Illinois that I'm familiar with.

One thing I will say, though, is that I always though Lake County should have better public transit than it does.

Quote from: JoePCool14 on December 01, 2020, 06:28:00 PM
AFAIK, no one has said anything about Illinois. So I'm just going to come out and say it:

Cook County is the worst.

Crook County? ;)

My aunt lived in Blue Island all her life and I got to watch the city slowly go downhill.

Quote from: The Nature Boy on November 30, 2020, 09:12:00 PM
Another point: Orleans County isn't that far (relatively speaking) from Toronto and not that far (again relatively speaking) from the major cities on the east coast. It's also not far from the Adirondacks or the Great Lakes.

Kansas doesn't have those adjacencies.

That's a fair point, and I suppose that is a quality-of-life based argument to a certain extent. But then again, you do have to leave the county to get to those places; the fact that there's plenty of worthy destinations in day-trip range doesn't, itself, make Orleans County a better place.

Quote from: webny99 on December 02, 2020, 11:01:22 AM
But then again, you do have to leave the county to get to those places; the fact that there's plenty of worthy destinations in day-trip range doesn't, itself, make Orleans County a better place.

Isn't that precisely why many people LOVE living in a city's suburbs, though?  All the benefits of the big city are just a short drive away.

Quote from: kphoger on December 02, 2020, 11:14:26 AM

Quote from: webny99 on December 02, 2020, 11:01:22 AM
But then again, you do have to leave the county to get to those places; the fact that there's plenty of worthy destinations in day-trip range doesn't, itself, make Orleans County a better place.

Isn't that precisely why many people LOVE living in a city's suburbs, though?  All the benefits of the big city are just a short drive away.

But in many cases, said benefits (presumably restaurants, shopping, entertainment, access to health care, employment opportunities, etc.) are also in the suburbs. Personally, I can't think of many reasons why I would need/want to visit the city of Rochester, and can probably count on one hand the number of city destinations that I've been to this year.

Quote from: webny99 on December 02, 2020, 12:31:01 PM

Quote from: kphoger on December 02, 2020, 11:14:26 AM

Quote from: webny99 on December 02, 2020, 11:01:22 AM
But then again, you do have to leave the county to get to those places; the fact that there's plenty of worthy destinations in day-trip range doesn't, itself, make Orleans County a better place.

Isn't that precisely why many people LOVE living in a city's suburbs, though?  All the benefits of the big city are just a short drive away.

But in many cases, said benefits (presumably restaurants, shopping, entertainment, access to health care, employment opportunities, etc.) are also in the suburbs. Personally, I can't think of many reasons why I would need/want to visit the city of Rochester, and can probably count on one hand the number of city destinations that I've been to this year.

Having lived in a collar county of Chicago (DuPage), I have a different experience.  People there had to leave their own county to do downtown shopping, go to pro sports events, attend concerts, go to the beach, etc–all things that people definitely appreciate being able to do nearby–not to mention working at their high-paying downtown job or flying out of the airport.  They were quite happy to live near all those things but have to leave their county do so.

Quote from: kphoger on December 02, 2020, 12:48:45 PM
Having lived in a collar county of Chicago (DuPage), I have a different experience.  People there had to leave their own county to do downtown shopping, go to pro sports events, attend concerts, go to the beach, etc–all things that people definitely appreciate being able to do nearby–not to mention working at their high-paying downtown job or flying out of the airport.  They were quite happy to live near all those things but have to leave their county do so.

That's a function of the metro area spanning multiple counties. In other words, being a part of the Chicago area, and thus being in close proximity to everything that there is to do in the Chicago area, is a key part of DuPage County's identity.

Being an hour from Niagara Falls, 2 hours from Letchworth State Park, 3 hours from Toronto, and 6 hours from most of the East Coast, meanwhile, is not a key part of the identity of Orleans County, not having an everyday impact on its residents or their quality of life, and thus being largely irrelevant.

Quote from: webny99 on December 02, 2020, 11:01:22 AM

Quote from: The Nature Boy on November 30, 2020, 09:12:00 PM
Another point: Orleans County isn't that far (relatively speaking) from Toronto and not that far (again relatively speaking) from the major cities on the east coast. It's also not far from the Adirondacks or the Great Lakes.

Kansas doesn't have those adjacencies.

That's a fair point, and I suppose that is a quality-of-life based argument to a certain extent. But then again, you do have to leave the county to get to those places; the fact that there's plenty of worthy destinations in day-trip range doesn't, itself, make Orleans County a better place.

It does make it cheaper to go on vacation or give you more interesting places to drive to for the weekend, which is a huge boost in quality of life (at least for me). A similarly situated Kansas county can't go to those places for a weekend. I mean, Toronto is only 2.5 hours away, that's an easy day trip.

You can technically visit Lake Ontario without leaving Orleans County but I imagine that anything fun might take you of the county but even then, it has to only be a short drive.

A shitty place is a shitty place but being able to easily go somewhere fun makes it slightly more bearable.

Quote from: webny99 on December 02, 2020, 01:09:14 PM

Quote from: kphoger on December 02, 2020, 12:48:45 PM
Having lived in a collar county of Chicago (DuPage), I have a different experience.  People there had to leave their own county to do downtown shopping, go to pro sports events, attend concerts, go to the beach, etc–all things that people definitely appreciate being able to do nearby–not to mention working at their high-paying downtown job or flying out of the airport.  They were quite happy to live near all those things but have to leave their county do so.

That's a function of the metro area spanning multiple counties. In other words, being a part of the Chicago area, and thus being in close proximity to everything that there is to do in the Chicago area, is a key part of DuPage County's identity.

Being an hour from Niagara Falls, 2 hours from Letchworth State Park, 3 hours from Toronto, and 6 hours from most of the East Coast, meanwhile, is not a key part of the identity of Orleans County, not having an everyday impact on its residents or their quality of life, and thus being largely irrelevant.

Whether something is a key part of the identity of the county doesn't change its impact on your life. There's no wall that stops you from driving to those places, whether your neighbors consider it important or not.

Quote from: The Nature Boy on December 02, 2020, 01:16:04 PM
You can technically visit Lake Ontario without leaving Orleans County but I imagine that anything fun might take you of the county but even then, it has to only be a short drive.

Correct on both counts, considering that Hamlin Beach State Park is decent (though by no means world-class) and it's less than a mile from County Line Rd (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/43.3642986,-77.9845833/108-90+County+Line+Rd,+Hamlin,+NY+14464/@43.3642555,-77.9938403,15.75z/data=!4m9!4m8!1m0!1m5!1m1!1s0x89d41c426b13366d:0x13a91ae8d5db7e5a!2m2!1d-77.9955432!2d43.3620619!3e2!5m1!1e1).

Quote from: The Nature Boy on December 02, 2020, 01:16:04 PM
Whether something is a key part of the identity of the county doesn't change its impact on your life. There's no wall that stops you from driving to those places, whether your neighbors consider it important or not.

Fair point, but my argument is that when you consider variety and proximity of nearby activities, a county like DuPage, IL, the one kphoger mentioned, is still going to rank a lot higher because there really isn't much of anything in Orleans County itself. Even if you wanted to go to a fairly basic restaurant for dinner - think Sonic, Chick-Fil-A, heck, even Wendy's! - you'd have to drive close to an hour to Rochester or Buffalo.

And sure, there's a lot of places you can get to in a day, but there's going to be an hour or more of traveling involved, which is fine for you and I, but that's not for everyone. Sure, day trip range is workable, but wouldn't you rather be closer?

I guess that gets back to the point of Orleans County being, at the very least, worse than the surrounding counties (and, IMO, all other NY counties) in that respect, but, I'm not going to argue that it's better or worse than similar areas in other states; primarily because I don't know enough about those areas to make a fair comparison, and after all, this is about "your state", so that's really outside the scope of the thread.

Now, if this was about "worst county in the nation", I presumably wouldn't have spent so much time discussing Orleans County... but then again, maybe I would've... don't give me any ideas!  :)

Quote from: webny99 on December 02, 2020, 01:09:14 PM

Quote from: kphoger on December 02, 2020, 12:48:45 PM
Having lived in a collar county of Chicago (DuPage), I have a different experience.  People there had to leave their own county to do downtown shopping, go to pro sports events, attend concerts, go to the beach, etc–all things that people definitely appreciate being able to do nearby–not to mention working at their high-paying downtown job or flying out of the airport.  They were quite happy to live near all those things but have to leave their county do so.

That's a function of the metro area spanning multiple counties. In other words, being a part of the Chicago area, and thus being in close proximity to everything that there is to do in the Chicago area, is a key part of DuPage County's identity.

This kind of logic also applies to Lake County. You get the convenience of being near Chicago, but not in the same county, thereby escaping a bit of what makes Cook County suck (politically, for the most part). Lake (in Illinois, not Indiana) and DuPage are definitely a step up from Cook.

Quote from: webny99 on December 02, 2020, 03:22:28 PM
Fair point, but my argument is that when you consider variety and proximity of nearby activities, a county like DuPage, IL, the one kphoger mentioned, is still going to rank a lot higher because there really isn't much of anything in Orleans County itself. Even if you wanted to go to a fairly basic restaurant for dinner - think Sonic, Chick-Fil-A, heck, even Wendy's! - you'd have to drive close to an hour to Rochester or Buffalo.

But I was originally replying to your pointing out that "you do have to leave the county to get to those places" and stating "the fact that there's plenty of worthy destinations in day-trip range doesn't, itself, make Orleans County a better place".

What I'm saying is this:  the fact that there's plenty of worthy destinations within range DOES in fact make suburban counties better, even though one has to leave the county to get to those places.  That is, in fact, why many people live there to begin with.

Quote from: webny99 on December 02, 2020, 03:22:28 PM
And sure, there's a lot of places you can get to in a day, but there's going to be an hour or more of traveling involved, which is fine for you and I, but that's not for everyone. Sure, day trip range is workable, but wouldn't you rather be closer?

From DuPage County to downtown Chicago–especially on a Friday or Saturday evening, when many people go into the city–can easily be an hour-long drive.  For example, right now, Google Maps estimates 1 hour 9 minutes to get from downtown Saint Charles to Soldier Field.  It estimates 1 hour 6 minutes to get from Albion to Bills Stadium.

Quote from: kphoger on December 02, 2020, 04:06:09 PM
What I'm saying is this:  the fact that there's plenty of worthy destinations within range DOES in fact make suburban counties better, even though one has to leave the county to get to those places.  That is, in fact, why many people live there to begin with.

100% this.  I lived in Kansas City for 11 years and I really love KC. That said, to get to anything else cool, you need to drive for quite a while -- IMO, 6 hours or more (Minneapolis, Chicago, etc.).  Living in the Denver metro now, I can drive a little over an hour and feel like I'm on vacation since I'm in the mountains.  Yes, I have to leave Arapahoe County to get there, but leaving Johnson County, KS took a lot longer.

Edit - And no offense intended to the poster who I'm quoting, but I don't add Wichita to the "cool places you can drive from KC" list.  :)

Chris

Quote from: kphoger on December 02, 2020, 04:06:09 PM
What I'm saying is this:  the fact that there's plenty of worthy destinations within range DOES in fact make suburban counties better, even though one has to leave the county to get to those places.  That is, in fact, why many people live there to begin with.

There's no disagreement from me on this point. Orleans County, though, is not suburban by any stretch of the imagination. It's very rural, perhaps among the most rural counties in the state.

Also note that while the Chicago area has several primarily suburban counties that are part of the metro, this is not the case for smaller metros across the country. In fact, I wouldn't characterize a single county in Upstate NY as primarily suburban except perhaps Saratoga (north of Albany). Most suburbs of Rochester, Buffalo, Syracuse, etc. are located in the same county as their respective city.

Quote from: kphoger on December 02, 2020, 04:06:09 PM
From DuPage County to downtown Chicago–especially on a Friday or Saturday evening, when many people go into the city–can easily be an hour-long drive.  For example, right now, Google Maps estimates 1 hour 9 minutes to get from downtown Saint Charles to Soldier Field.  It estimates 1 hour 6 minutes to get from Albion to Bills Stadium.

Interesting comparison; sounds like one I might make myself when boasting about our light traffic!  :)
There's a couple key differences, though: one is that the trip from St. Charles to downtown Chicago has the potential to be quicker. It could likely be done in 35-40 minutes late at night or in the early morning. That means it "feels" much closer, even if it's similar time-wise at rush hour. Albion to Buffalo, meanwhile, is a solid hour at noon, 3 PM, or midnight.

Another is that traffic in Chicago is unlikely to be that bad when most games occur, because the prevailing trend (lighter traffic on weekends) is easily enough to offset the fans traveling to the game. In western New York, meanwhile, returning from a Bills game may be the only time, outside of maybe right at 5 PM or during a large snowstorm, when returning to Albion could take well upwards of an hour. The Thruway from Buffalo to Batavia is an absolute nightmare in the wake of Bills games, not least because, unlike in the inner city, weekend traffic on connecting interstates is already much heavier than it is on weekdays.

Quote from: webny99 on December 02, 2020, 03:22:28 PM

Quote from: The Nature Boy on December 02, 2020, 01:16:04 PM
Whether something is a key part of the identity of the county doesn't change its impact on your life. There's no wall that stops you from driving to those places, whether your neighbors consider it important or not.

Sure, day trip range is workable, but wouldn't you rather be closer?

Sure but my initial comparison was between Orleans County and a hypothetical rural Kansas county ;)

My point is that you probably wouldn't want to be in Kansas because Orleans County is at least within a day's drive of a lot of really good shit.

Some of Kansas is within day trip range of Denver.

Quote from: The Nature Boy on December 02, 2020, 08:33:55 PM
Sure but my initial comparison was between Orleans County and a hypothetical rural Kansas county ;)

My point is that you probably wouldn't want to be in Kansas because Orleans County is at least within a day's drive of a lot of really good shit.

Not arguing with that... but I still think from an overall perspective, having to spend the majority of your time in Orleans County is a big ask. If I had to pick one county and never be able to leave, I'd pick somewhere in the Midwest. But, once you factor in the ability to travel and the positives of the rest of Upstate NY and Ontario (once we can finally travel there again), sure, I'd lean towards Orleans over other parts of the country, but not over other parts of the state.

Quote from: webny99 on December 02, 2020, 04:44:27 PM

Quote from: kphoger on December 02, 2020, 04:06:09 PM
What I'm saying is this:  the fact that there's plenty of worthy destinations within range DOES in fact make suburban counties better, even though one has to leave the county to get to those places.  That is, in fact, why many people live there to begin with.

There's no disagreement from me on this point. Orleans County, though, is not suburban by any stretch of the imagination. It's very rural, perhaps among the most rural counties in the state.

Also note that while the Chicago area has several primarily suburban counties that are part of the metro, this is not the case for smaller metros across the country. In fact, I wouldn't characterize a single county in Upstate NY as primarily suburban except perhaps Saratoga (north of Albany). Most suburbs of Rochester, Buffalo, Syracuse, etc. are located in the same county as their respective city.

Quote from: kphoger on December 02, 2020, 04:06:09 PM
From DuPage County to downtown Chicago–especially on a Friday or Saturday evening, when many people go into the city–can easily be an hour-long drive.  For example, right now, Google Maps estimates 1 hour 9 minutes to get from downtown Saint Charles to Soldier Field.  It estimates 1 hour 6 minutes to get from Albion to Bills Stadium.

Interesting comparison; sounds like one I might make myself when boasting about our light traffic!  :)
There's a couple key differences, though: one is that the trip from St. Charles to downtown Chicago has the potential to be quicker. It could likely be done in 35-40 minutes late at night or in the early morning. That means it "feels" much closer, even if it's similar time-wise at rush hour. Albion to Buffalo, meanwhile, is a solid hour at noon, 3 PM, or midnight.

Another is that traffic in Chicago is unlikely to be that bad when most games occur, because the prevailing trend (light traffic on Sundays) is easily enough to offset the fans traveling to the game. In western New York, meanwhile, returning from a Bills game may be the only time, outside of maybe right at 5 PM or during a large snowstorm, when returning to Albion could take well upwards of an hour. The Thruway from Buffalo to Batavia is an absolute nightmare in the wake of Bills games, not least because, unlike in the inner city, weekend traffic on connecting interstates is already much heavier than it is on weekdays.

There's part of Ontario County (mainly Victor and Farmington) and the part of Wayne County along NY 104 for Rochester.  Some parts of Niagara County around North Tonawanda may count for Buffalo.  And, of course, the Capital District is odd because the core metro area itself is split, with four core cities, one in each county (particularly with the suburbs more closely tied with Albany in Saratoga and Rensselaer Counties).

Quote from: 1 on December 02, 2020, 08:46:07 PM
Some of Kansas is within day trip range of Denver.

Eh, not really.

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 02, 2020, 09:49:04 PM

Quote from: 1 on December 02, 2020, 08:46:07 PM
Some of Kansas is within day trip range of Denver.

Eh, not really.

I live on the east side of Denver.  I can be in Kansas in about 2.5 hours.

Chris

Quote from: vdeane on December 02, 2020, 09:25:41 PM

Quote from: webny99 on December 02, 2020, 04:44:27 PM
...
Also note that while the Chicago area has several primarily suburban counties that are part of the metro, this is not the case for smaller metros across the country. In fact, I wouldn't characterize a single county in Upstate NY as primarily suburban except perhaps Saratoga (north of Albany). Most suburbs of Rochester, Buffalo, Syracuse, etc. are located in the same county as their respective city.
...

There's part of Ontario County (mainly Victor and Farmington) and the part of Wayne County along NY 104 for Rochester.  Some parts of Niagara County around North Tonawanda may count for Buffalo.  And, of course, the Capital District is odd because the core metro area itself is split, with four core cities, one in each county (particularly with the suburbs more closely tied with Albany in Saratoga and Rensselaer Counties).

Right, I wasn't saying there aren't suburban areas. Parts of Walworth (especially Gananda) and Macedon could be consider suburban as well, but Ontario and Wayne counties as a whole wouldn't be considered suburban; they're primarily rural.

Niagara County and the Albany area counties are more interesting cases because they have a good mix of urban, suburban, and rural, making it hard to put any of them definitively in one category.

Quote from: jayhawkco on December 02, 2020, 09:54:53 PM

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 02, 2020, 09:49:04 PM

Quote from: 1 on December 02, 2020, 08:46:07 PM
Some of Kansas is within day trip range of Denver.

Eh, not really.

I live on the east side of Denver.  I can be in Kansas in about 2.5 hours.

It depends on how one defines "day trip range". For me, it's about 4-5 hours depending on the context, but I imagine that's much higher than average. Certainly anything under 2.5 hours would qualify for most people, but the issue here is that while the Kansas state line is reachable in that time frame... that's about it.

You can't get very far into Kansas without getting upwards of 3 hours. Some of the more well-known places like Hays and Garden City are close to 5 hours, and even Goodland, the second town of significance as you head east on I-70, is a solid 3 hours from downtown Denver, and that's with no traffic this time of night.

Allegheny County, NC.

Cook Co. IL

I just looked at my mob-rule account and was looking at New York, I notice that Orleans County is an island for me, first time I've noticed that. I don't really look at New York on there too often though. Wayne County is also an island.

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 02, 2020, 09:49:04 PM

Quote from: 1 on December 02, 2020, 08:46:07 PM
Some of Kansas is within day trip range of Denver.

Eh, not really.

Where I grew up in northwestern Kansas, Denver was the nearest city.  My family went there a few times a year to go to the mall and stuff.  My dad would buy alcoholic beverages that were unavailable in small-town Kansas, my mom would shop for uniform supplies and sewing supplies, my dad and I would test-drive a car or two, we'd go out to eat at an ethnic restaurant or two, etc, etc.

Now, it was 3.5 hours each way to the shopping areas of Aurora.  My family always made an overnight trip of it, but someone else could easily do that in a day trip.  If my wife and I lived in the town I grew up in, for example, we'd probably leave home at 6:30 AM, arrive in the Denver area mid-morning, spend six or seven hours doing "big city stuff", and then be back home for the kids' bedtime.

I mean I don't know where in Kansas you'd be attempting to get to from Denver but like where Goodland is at is only about 3 hours from Denver.

Quote from: Flint1979 on December 03, 2020, 09:46:00 AM
I just looked at my mob-rule account and was looking at New York, I notice that Orleans County is an island for me, first time I've noticed that. I don't really look at New York on there too often though. Wayne County is also an island.

Wayne County is an island I'd recommend visiting at some point. It's the middle of nowhere, but it does have some cool places along the lake, like Sodus Point and Chimney Bluffs, and some history in the canal towns. I wouldn't worry about Orleans, though.  :)

Quote from: webny99 on December 03, 2020, 12:52:58 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on December 03, 2020, 09:46:00 AM
I just looked at my mob-rule account and was looking at New York, I notice that Orleans County is an island for me, first time I've noticed that. I don't really look at New York on there too often though. Wayne County is also an island.

Wayne County is an island I'd recommend visiting at some point. It's the middle of nowhere, but it does have some cool places along the lake, like Sodus Point and Chimney Bluffs, and some history in the canal towns. I wouldn't worry about Orleans, though.  :)

I think going to New York would be fun. I'm looking at Orleans County not knowing much about it or ever being there I'd probably be ok going to get the clinch and getting outta there. With you being a local to that area unlike me what is it that makes Orleans County bad? Wayne County does appear to be a little more cooler so I'm assuming it's probably just blah scenery or something like that with Orleans.  Honestly I like the middle of nowhere I love being on a road by myself and not being anywhere near the hustle and bustle of a big city.

East Carroll Parish, Louisiana. Middle of nowhere, tons of poverty, and de facto segregated neighborhoods and schools.

Quote from: debragga on December 03, 2020, 01:45:18 PM
East Carroll Parish, Louisiana. Middle of nowhere, tons of poverty, and de facto segregated neighborhoods and schools.

Geez just looking at the Demographics of that county (well parish in Louisiana talk) that might be the worst county (parish) anyone has listed to this point.

Quote from: Flint1979 on December 03, 2020, 12:48:38 PM
I mean I don't know where in Kansas you'd be attempting to get to from Denver but like where Goodland is at is only about 3 hours from Denver.

I grew up in Atwood, KS.  It was 3½ hours to Denver metro using US-36, or 4 hours dropping down to Colby and using I-70 from there.

Quote from: Flint1979 on December 03, 2020, 01:01:54 PM
... I'm looking at Orleans County not knowing much about it or ever being there I'd probably be ok going to get the clinch and getting outta there. With you being a local to that area unlike me what is it that makes Orleans County bad? Wayne County does appear to be a little more cooler so I'm assuming it's probably just blah scenery or something like that with Orleans. 

I guess my previous post from a few days ago does as good a job as any explaining what I dislike about Orleans County:

Quote from: webny99 on November 28, 2020, 02:38:17 PM
Orleans is one of many Upstate counties that are losing population. As for why it's the worst, its Lake Ontario shoreline is terrible (zero beaches of note), it's run-down, economically depressed, and there's no scenery to speak of. To give an idea, here (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.2533132,-77.9920922,3a,90y,41.55h,91.44t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s0R57iX1_d5nQpVofVPG21g!2e0!5s20181001T000000!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1) is your welcome to Orleans County on NY 104. Albion and Medina, meanwhile, are consistently ranked among the most redneck places in the state... and for Upstate NY, that's saying something.

Not like you'd be scarred for life or anything by driving through for the clinch, but it doesn't have a lot going for it no matter how you slice it.

"Doesn't have a lot going for it" does not make it the worst.

I'd imagine Oklahoma has sixty-ish counties that are on par with Orleans County. Run-down, economically depressed, no scenery, rednecks, zero Lake Ontario beaches...

Quote from: kphoger on December 03, 2020, 03:17:59 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on December 03, 2020, 12:48:38 PM
I mean I don't know where in Kansas you'd be attempting to get to from Denver but like where Goodland is at is only about 3 hours from Denver.

I grew up in Atwood, KS.  It was 3½ hours to Denver metro using US-36, or 4 hours dropping down to Colby and using I-70 from there.

Still within a day trip for me. I think I'd use US-36 to get from Atwood, KS to Denver.

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 03, 2020, 05:22:52 PM
"Doesn't have a lot going for it" does not make it the worst.

I'd imagine Oklahoma has sixty-ish counties that are on par with Orleans County. Run-down, economically depressed, no scenery, rednecks, zero Lake Ontario beaches...

The thing is, New York doesn't have 60 of those. We only have one. Now, there are plenty of other New York counties that have some, or even most, of those characteristics, but not all of them. Many such counties are saved by at least having decent scenery, which contributes to some semblance of a tourism industry, which provides some degree of economic life support, and so on.

You would think that Lakeside Beach State Park would have a beach. Hamlin Beach State Park just east of the county line in Monroe County has a beach though. Sodus Point in Wayne County looks kind of interesting.

Quote from: webny99 on November 30, 2020, 03:24:13 PM

Quote from: empirestate on November 29, 2020, 12:52:08 AM

Quote from: ... on November 28, 2020, 02:38:17 PM
Orleans is one of many Upstate counties that are losing population. As for why it's the worst, its Lake Ontario shoreline is terrible (zero beaches of note), it's run-down, redneck, economically depressed, and there's no scenery to speak of. To give an idea, here (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.2533132,-77.9920922,3a,90y,41.55h,91.44t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s0R57iX1_d5nQpVofVPG21g!2e0!5s20181001T000000!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1) is your welcome to Orleans County on NY 104. Albion and Medina, meanwhile, are consistently ranked among the most redneck places in the state... and for Upstate NY, that's saying something.

As I mentioned upthread, all other counties at least have a number of things going for them, be it scenery, attractions, quality of life, a regional economic hub, or otherwise. Orleans is a true eyesore that doesn't have any of those things. That makes it the worst.

Objective, though? (Off-topic, since the question is about personal preference...but since you did offer...) ;-)

What's not objective about that?

All of the factors you mentioned depend on individual preference, perspective or experience. For example:
–There is a state park there called Lakeside Beach. Although I've never been to it, the fact that I can tell you this off the top of my head means it is at least somewhat of note. Furthermore, what time I have spent at the the Orleans County shoreline, I remember fondly.
–Run-down: this isn't anything I can corroborate from my own observation, at least not to a greater extent than any other county.
–Redneck: that would, presumably, be a positive aspect for those residents who are rednecks, or are generally in favor of them.
–No scenery to speak of: the culvert under the canal is pretty neat, and indeed, the canal infrastructure as a whole makes for some pretty neat vignettes here and there. You've also got some interesting cobblestone architecture–and not to mention, a Great Lake. Not every county in New York has one of those!

And just to cap it off, quality of life: whose life, though? Can't really get more subjective than that–and since getting subjective is the whole point of the question, why not just go ahead and embrace that, rather than try to support a subjective position with objective criteria?

Quote from: webny99 on December 02, 2020, 12:31:01 PM
Personally, I can't think of many reasons why I would need/want to visit the city of Rochester, and can probably count on one hand the number of city destinations that I've been to this year.

Well, according to your profile, you're located there...so that would presumably be a pretty good incentive to get there at least occasionally. ;-)

Camden

Quote from: TheGrassGuy on December 04, 2020, 08:27:52 AM
Camden

This thread is "worst county", not "worst city that shares the name of a county". Is the entire county that bad?

Quote from: 1 on December 04, 2020, 08:33:00 AM

Quote from: TheGrassGuy on December 04, 2020, 08:27:52 AM
Camden

This thread is "worst county", not "worst city that shares the name of a county". Is the entire county that bad?

For New Jersey my choice would be Hudson County.

Quote from: empirestate on December 04, 2020, 02:05:18 AM
–There is a state park there called Lakeside Beach. Although I've never been to it, the fact that I can tell you this off the top of my head means it is at least somewhat of note. ...
–Run-down: this isn't anything I can corroborate from my own observation, at least not to a greater extent than any other county. ...

1. It's a beach in name only. Presumably, the reason you knew it existed is because it's where the LOSP ends.
2. Of course, every county has its run-down areas, but the difference with Orleans is that it's the whole county, not just parts of it.

Quote from: empirestate on December 04, 2020, 02:05:18 AM
And just to cap it off, quality of life: whose life, though? Can't really get more subjective than that–and since getting subjective is the whole point of the question, why not just go ahead and embrace that, rather than try to support a subjective position with objective criteria?

It is subjective in the sense that you can find a few positive things about Orleans County, which you've done a commendable job of.
But that's a lot different than making an argument for why another county is worse than Orleans. In other words, maybe you think Orleans County is simply OK, or not the worst place on the planet. That could be true, and it could still be the worst county in New York. The two can be true simultaneously if the New York's other 61 counties are simply better, which I believe to be the case.
My guess is that it would be pretty hard - for you, me, or anyone else - to make a feasible case, even subjectively, that any other county is worse, but I'm here for it if anyone wants to try!  :)

---

Quote from: empirestate on December 04, 2020, 02:05:18 AM

Quote from: webny99 on December 02, 2020, 12:31:01 PM
Personally, I can't think of many reasons why I would need/want to visit the city of Rochester, and can probably count on one hand the number of city destinations that I've been to this year.

Well, according to your profile, you're located there...so that would presumably be a pretty good incentive to get there at least occasionally. ;-)

I'm in the suburbs... but I think of myself as being "from Rochester" and that's what my answer would be if someone asked, so that's what I went with in my profile.

Quote from: webny99 on December 04, 2020, 11:04:34 AM
It is subjective in the sense that you can find a few positive things about Orleans County, which you've done a commendable job of.
But that's a lot different than making an argument for why another county is worse than Orleans. In other words, maybe you think Orleans County is simply OK, or not the worst place on the planet. That could be true, and it could still be the worst county in New York. The two can be true simultaneously if the New York's other 61 counties are simply better, which I believe to be the case.
My guess is that it would be pretty hard - for you, me, or anyone else - to make a feasible case, even subjectively, that any other county is worse, but I'm here for it if anyone wants to try!  :)

If I lived closer, I might bet money that I could find multiple Orleans County residents who believe Bronx County is worse and could number the reasons why.

Quote from: kphoger on December 04, 2020, 12:05:30 PM
If I lived closer, I might bet money that I could find multiple Orleans County residents who believe Bronx County is worse and could number the reasons why.

Life was good until someone remembered that NYC was more than one county.  :-P

Quote from: webny99 on December 04, 2020, 01:08:24 PM

Quote from: kphoger on December 04, 2020, 12:05:30 PM
If I lived closer, I might bet money that I could find multiple Orleans County residents who believe Bronx County is worse and could number the reasons why.

Life was good until someone remembered that NYC was more than one county.  :-P

The Bronx may have the worst parts of NYC, but in my 4 trips there, I've found reasons to go there twice, compared to once each for Brooklyn and Queens, and I've yet to find a reason to go to Staten Island.

I really just meant NYC in general, and I picked a county.

I only went to Staten Island so I could say I was there. Pretty much it's suburban in character and there are parts of it that seem very isolated and remote.

Quote from: Flint1979 on December 04, 2020, 01:46:49 PM
I only went to Staten Island so I could say I was there. Pretty much it's suburban in character and there are parts of it that seem very isolated and remote.

That's the beauty of it. There's some parts where you'd hardly believe you're in NYC

Quote from: CapeCodder on December 04, 2020, 03:06:54 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on December 04, 2020, 01:46:49 PM
I only went to Staten Island so I could say I was there. Pretty much it's suburban in character and there are parts of it that seem very isolated and remote.

That's the beauty of it. There's some parts where you'd hardly believe you're in NYC

Yeah like on the west side by the sanitation department.

Quote from: Flint1979 on December 04, 2020, 03:30:50 PM

Quote from: CapeCodder on December 04, 2020, 03:06:54 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on December 04, 2020, 01:46:49 PM
I only went to Staten Island so I could say I was there. Pretty much it's suburban in character and there are parts of it that seem very isolated and remote.

That's the beauty of it. There's some parts where you'd hardly believe you're in NYC

Yeah like on the west side by the sanitation department.

Even by the Farm Colony/Sea View Hospital

Quote from: CapeCodder on December 04, 2020, 03:06:54 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on December 04, 2020, 01:46:49 PM
I only went to Staten Island so I could say I was there. Pretty much it's suburban in character and there are parts of it that seem very isolated and remote.

That's the beauty of it. There's some parts where you'd hardly believe you're in NYC

You could say the same of parts of Queens, especially if you head down to Breezy Point.

Quote from: kphoger on December 04, 2020, 01:23:51 PM
I really just meant NYC in general, and I picked a county.

You picked well, mostly because of the stereotype of the Bronx being the worst borough. All five boroughs have things going for them, but it's certainly easier to give NYC as a whole an edge over a rural county than each borough individually.

Quote from: webny99 on December 04, 2020, 05:00:22 PM

Quote from: kphoger on December 04, 2020, 01:23:51 PM
I really just meant NYC in general, and I picked a county.

You picked well, mostly because of the stereotype of the Bronx being the worst borough. All five boroughs have things going for them, but it's certainly easier to give NYC as a whole an edge over a rural county than each borough individually.

My point is that I'm sure plenty of Orleans County residents would prefer staying over moving to NYC.

Quote from: webny99 on December 04, 2020, 05:00:22 PM

Quote from: kphoger on December 04, 2020, 01:23:51 PM
I really just meant NYC in general, and I picked a county.

You picked well, mostly because of the stereotype of the Bronx being the worst borough. All five boroughs have things going for them, but it's certainly easier to give NYC as a whole an edge over a rural county than each borough individually.

Quote from: kphoger on December 04, 2020, 05:01:22 PM
My point is that I'm sure plenty of Orleans County residents would prefer staying over moving to NYC.

Oh, I have no doubt that's true. That's probably true of the residents of almost every New York county, including my own. Doesn't say much about which place is fundamentally better, though, because hate of downstate (if you live upstate) and total disillusionment about upstate (if you live downstate), is the #1 rule of being a good New York citizen.

Quote from: Flint1979 on December 03, 2020, 02:19:42 PM

Quote from: debragga on December 03, 2020, 01:45:18 PM
East Carroll Parish, Louisiana. Middle of nowhere, tons of poverty, and de facto segregated neighborhoods and schools.

Geez just looking at the Demographics of that county (well parish in Louisiana talk) that might be the worst county (parish) anyone has listed to this point.

There are some others in Louisiana that are close too

Quote from: webny99 on December 04, 2020, 11:04:34 AM
1. It's a beach in name only. Presumably, the reason you knew it existed is because it's where the LOSP ends.

The reason I know about it is because I've studied maps of my home state extensively for years, and I know a whole lot about what exists in the state. But you make a good point that many people may indeed know of it because of the parkway ending there.

But whatever the reason, the point remains that the beach is, indeed, of note. So to say that there are no beaches of note is not something we can objectively corroborate.

Quote2. Of course, every county has its run-down areas, but the difference with Orleans is that it's the whole county, not just parts of it.

I've visited places in the county that are not run-down. So here again, we can't objectively confirm that claim.

Quote

Quote from: empirestate on December 04, 2020, 02:05:18 AM
And just to cap it off, quality of life: whose life, though? Can't really get more subjective than that–and since getting subjective is the whole point of the question, why not just go ahead and embrace that, rather than try to support a subjective position with objective criteria?

It is subjective in the sense that you can find a few positive things about Orleans County, which you've done a commendable job of.

Well, no, what makes it subjective is that the things that lower the quality of one person's life might not lower the quality of another's, if for no other reason than that one of the persons doesn't dislike those things.

QuoteBut that's a lot different than making an argument for why another county is worse than Orleans. In other words, maybe you think Orleans County is simply OK, or not the worst place on the planet. That could be true, and it could still be the worst county in New York. The two can be true simultaneously if the New York's other 61 counties are simply better, which I believe to be the case.
My guess is that it would be pretty hard - for you, me, or anyone else - to make a feasible case, even subjectively, that any other county is worse, but I'm here for it if anyone wants to try!  :)

Sure I can. :-) I'm not particularly fond of Nassau County, because the stuff that it's full of is stuff I like less than what Orleans County is full of.

That's pretty much all there is to it–the opposing view would be that I actually do like Nassau County better than Orleans, which is what you'd have to persuade me of if you wanted to rebut the argument. But because it's subjective, that's a pretty tall order.

That's why the idea of making an objective argument for one county as the worst just seems like a no-win situation to me. You certainly don't have to agree with my subjective choice of Nassau County. But if you make an objective case for Orleans County, then we do both have to agree, or the case doesn't stand.

QuoteI'm in the suburbs... but I think of myself as being "from Rochester" and that's what my answer would be if someone asked, so that's what I went with in my profile.

Yeah, that's what I mean. You were saying how the benefits of a big city are also present in its suburbs, to the point where the city itself can often be done without. However, there must be some further benefit, value or importance to the city proper, such that you feel motivated to identify principally with it.

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 03, 2020, 05:22:52 PM
"Doesn't have a lot going for it" does not make it the worst.

I'd imagine Oklahoma has sixty-ish counties that are on par with Orleans County. Run-down, economically depressed, no scenery, rednecks, zero Lake Ontario beaches...

I would argue that Oklahoma has something better than a lake that shares a name with a Canadian province, it has the the Canadian River and and even Canadian County.

Take THAT Orleans County and your little Lake Ontario.

If I had to choose, I would probably say Brooks County. Middle of nowhere, no scenery, and many illegal immigrants die in the county every year because of the hot weather. Also, 40% of the population lives below the poverty line.

Imo, probably Lenoir. Very high crime rate, and robbery rates are high.

Quote from: empirestate on December 04, 2020, 08:57:47 PM
But whatever the reason, the point remains that the beach is, indeed, of note. So to say that there are no beaches of note is not something we can objectively corroborate.

But whether it's of note is only the second question to be addressed.
The first question is whether it's a beach, and, from a public utility standpoint, it is not.

Quote from: empirestate on December 04, 2020, 08:57:47 PM
I've visited places in the county that are not run-down. So here again, we can't objectively confirm that claim.

For example...

Quote from: empirestate on December 04, 2020, 08:57:47 PM
That's why the idea of making an objective argument for one county as the worst just seems like a no-win situation to me. You certainly don't have to agree with my subjective choice of Nassau County. But if you make an objective case for Orleans County, then we do both have to agree, or the case doesn't stand.

I think we've already established that it isn't an objective fact, and that saying it is was a mis-framing on my part. I'm not going to try to convince you that Nassau is better than Orleans, and, in the absence of actual data which I have neither the time nor resources to compile, I can't even prove you're in the minority, so you're right: we've hit a dead end.

---

Quote from: empirestate on December 04, 2020, 08:57:47 PM
Yeah, that's what I mean. You were saying how the benefits of a big city are also present in its suburbs, to the point where the city itself can often be done without. However, there must be some further benefit, value or importance to the city proper, such that you feel motivated to identify principally with it.

Well, sure; simply the fact that it has enabled the suburbs by virtue of being the first and most prominent settlement in the area. That also means it's the most well-known and easily identifiable among the general population.

It's not that I'm particularly fond of saying I'm from Rah-chester. It's more just that I'd get confused looks if I said the actual name of the town (and no, it's not Irondequoit :)), and would end up qualifying it with "a suburb of Rochester" most of the time anyways. The icing on the cake, of course, is that I'm in a Rochester ZIP code, and therefore, have a Rochester mailing address.

Quote from: The Nature Boy on December 04, 2020, 09:00:50 PM
I would argue that Oklahoma has something better than a lake that shares a name with a Canadian province, it has the the Canadian River and and even Canadian County.

Take THAT Orleans County and your little Lake Ontario.

... and on that lake Ontario, there is a town of Ontario, whose county shares a border with a county named Ontario, whose state shares a border with a province named Ontario.

Back to Minnesota I'd probably throw Beltrami on the list. Lot of poverty within the large Native population and there has been increasing amounts of friction between them and local racists in recent times.

Quote from: webny99 on December 04, 2020, 11:44:37 PM

Quote from: The Nature Boy on December 04, 2020, 09:00:50 PM
I would argue that Oklahoma has something better than a lake that shares a name with a Canadian province, it has the the Canadian River and and even Canadian County.

Take THAT Orleans County and your little Lake Ontario.

... and on that lake Ontario, there is a town of Ontario, whose county shares a border with a county named Ontario, whose state shares a border with a province named Ontario.

And Canadian County has Yukon, which is a territory in Canada.

Quote from: webny99 on December 04, 2020, 11:23:14 PM

Quote from: empirestate on December 04, 2020, 08:57:47 PM
But whatever the reason, the point remains that the beach is, indeed, of note. So to say that there are no beaches of note is not something we can objectively corroborate.

But whether it's of note is only the second question to be addressed.
The first question is whether it's a beach, and, from a public utility standpoint, it is not.

Probably the simplest way to put it is that you can't swim there, or use it in pretty much any other way (although that in itself might be notable, especially as it's maintained by the state for presumably recreational purposes). But even then, you'd have to show that the absence of beaches is a fact that objectively makes Orleans County the worst.

And more broadly than that, of course, is the question of whether "the worst" can be an objective quality at all. I wasn't sure it could be, that's why I was curious about what objective data you had available to do so.

Quote

Quote from: empirestate on December 04, 2020, 08:57:47 PM
I've visited places in the county that are not run-down. So here again, we can't objectively confirm that claim.

For example...

For example? I mean, residences and businesses in the county. Even just places I've driven by. Not every building in the county is ramshackle, and certainly not every person who resides there is indigent. The whole lakeshore that has a notable lack of beaches has an awful lot of homes lining it that aren't in poor repair at all.

QuoteI'm not going to try to convince you that Nassau is better than Orleans, and, in the absence of actual data which I have neither the time nor resources to compile, I can't even prove you're in the minority, so you're right: we've hit a dead end.

Sure, and a dead end that we pretty well knew was coming, I think. And that's just fine–this is in no way a complaint, for my part. Which of us in this habit hasn't purposely driven down a lot of dead end roads, just to see what lies along them? :-)

QuoteWell, sure; simply the fact that it has enabled the suburbs by virtue of being the first and most prominent settlement in the area. That also means it's the most well-known and easily identifiable among the general population.

It's not that I'm particularly fond of saying I'm from Rah-chester. It's more just that I'd get confused looks if I said the actual name of the town (and no, it's not Irondequoit :)), and would end up qualifying it with "a suburb of Rochester" most of the time anyways.

Exactly. The city of Rochester, for whatever reason, has an importance beyond your personal like or dislike of it, such that you use its name to identify your location, rather than the name of the body politic whose land actually underlies your home. You could even say that there's a stronger objective case to be made here (to whatever conclusion) than there is in the "worst county" question.

QuoteThe icing on the cake, of course, is that I'm in a Rochester ZIP code, and therefore, have a Rochester mailing address.

Oh yes, certainly one of the most pervasive sources of confusion and discrepancy when it comes to fixing a location. There are even people who literally don't know where they actually live or own property–even in the town where I used to have a home, there were people who would argue they didn't live in the town because their ZIP code had a different name. I'm not sure where they thought they were sending their taxes... ;-)

Quote from: empirestate on December 05, 2020, 12:01:25 PM
Probably the simplest way to put it is that you can't swim there, or use it in pretty much any other way (although that in itself might be notable, especially as it's maintained by the state for presumably recreational purposes). But even then, you'd have to show that the absence of beaches is a fact that objectively makes Orleans County the worst.

Right on the first count; that's what I was getting at in saying there are no beaches of note!  :)
As for the second count, it's not that the absence of beaches on its own makes it the worst county. Rather, it's one of several factors, and perhaps among the most glaring, given that the lakeshore is potentially one of the biggest advantages Orleans County has over a generic inland county, and it's a completely wasted advantage because there's nowhere for the public to enjoy it or even see much of it aside from a fleeting glimpse or two on the Parkway.

Quote from: empirestate on December 05, 2020, 12:01:25 PM
For example? I mean, residences and businesses in the county. Even just places I've driven by. Not every building in the county is ramshackle, and certainly not every person who resides there is indigent. The whole lakeshore that has a notable lack of beaches has an awful lot of homes lining it that aren't in poor repair at all.

As compared with other counties, though? The fact that there are residents living above the poverty line and there are homes that aren't  in poor repair doesn't quite cut it; and in fact just shows how far the bar has fallen.

---

Quote from: empirestate on December 05, 2020, 12:01:25 PM
Exactly. The city of Rochester, for whatever reason, has an importance beyond your personal like or dislike of it, such that you use its name to identify your location, rather than the name of the body politic whose land actually underlies your home. You could even say that there's a stronger objective case to be made here (to whatever conclusion) than there is in the "worst county" question.

I honestly can't even remember where this side discussion started, but I don't believe I had any larger point to make on this and was only responding to your inquiry. So, you are welcome to come to whatever conclusion you would like, and if I object, you'll be the first to know.  :)

Quote from: webny99 on December 05, 2020, 01:35:44 PM
I honestly can't even remember where this side discussion started

It was about the definition of the word "objective".

Quote from: 1 on December 05, 2020, 01:36:36 PM

Quote from: webny99 on December 05, 2020, 01:35:44 PM
I honestly can't even remember where this side discussion started

It was about the definition of the word "objective".

Yes, the discussion as a whole started with that, but I was referring only to the last ("side") point, to which I've added an "hr" to separate it from the rest.

Looking back, that appears to have started with my comment about not needing to visit the city of Rochester.

Quote from: webny99 on December 05, 2020, 01:35:44 PM

Quote from: empirestate on December 05, 2020, 12:01:25 PM
Probably the simplest way to put it is that you can't swim there, or use it in pretty much any other way (although that in itself might be notable, especially as it's maintained by the state for presumably recreational purposes). But even then, you'd have to show that the absence of beaches is a fact that objectively makes Orleans County the worst.

Right on the first count; that's what I was getting at in saying there are no beaches of note!  :)
As for the second count, it's not that the absence of beaches on its own makes it the worst county. Rather, it's one of several factors, and perhaps among the most glaring, given that the lakeshore is potentially one of the biggest advantages Orleans County has over a generic inland county, and it's a completely wasted advantage because there's nowhere for the public to enjoy it or even see much of it aside from a fleeting glimpse or two on the Parkway.

Right. Not on its own, but as one example of several factors that can't be shown to make a county objectively the worst, because the factors depend on one's personal opinion about them. That's the crux here, it's not the beach per se.

Quote

Quote from: empirestate on December 05, 2020, 12:01:25 PM
For example? I mean, residences and businesses in the county. Even just places I've driven by. Not every building in the county is ramshackle, and certainly not every person who resides there is indigent. The whole lakeshore that has a notable lack of beaches has an awful lot of homes lining it that aren't in poor repair at all.

As compared with other counties, though? The fact that there are residents living above the poverty line and there are homes that aren't  in poor repair doesn't quite cut it; and in fact just shows how far the bar has fallen.

No, not as compared with other counties, just the entirety of Orleans itself. It isn't all run down, in my observation, as you said it was in yours. Since our observations differ, they can't be reconciled in a way that makes this an objective criterion.

---

Quote

Quote from: empirestate on December 05, 2020, 12:01:25 PM
Exactly. The city of Rochester, for whatever reason, has an importance beyond your personal like or dislike of it, such that you use its name to identify your location, rather than the name of the body politic whose land actually underlies your home. You could even say that there's a stronger objective case to be made here (to whatever conclusion) than there is in the "worst county" question.

I honestly can't even remember where this side discussion started, but I don't believe I had any larger point to make on this and was only responding to your inquiry. So, you are welcome to come to whatever conclusion you would like, and if I object, you'll be the first to know.  :)

The line of discussion was this:
kphoger said, "All the benefits of the big city are just a short drive away."

You replied, "But in many cases, said benefits (presumably restaurants, shopping, entertainment, access to health care, employment opportunities, etc.) are also in the suburbs. Personally, I can't think of many reasons why I would need/want to visit the city of Rochester, and can probably count on one hand the number of city destinations that I've been to this year."

I noticed that there must be at least some benefit–some aspect of value–that still lies that short drive away, in the city proper, rather than existing also in the suburbs. The evidence was that, as many people would, you had given your location as the city proper rather than any of its suburbs. You may not actually need to take the short drive to exploit that bit of value, but it's there nonetheless.

That's it–nothing in disagreement to the prior remarks, just adding to them (making the larger point, as it were), so hopefully no cause for objection. :-)

Quote from: empirestate on December 07, 2020, 08:08:55 PM
Not on its own, but as one example of several factors that can't be shown to make a county objectively the worst, because the factors depend on one's personal opinion about them. That's the crux here, it's not the beach per se.

It does, however, make it worse than all the other counties with a lakeshore, so that narrows the search for a worse county down considerably.

Quote from: empirestate on December 07, 2020, 08:08:55 PM
No, not as compared with other counties, just the entirety of Orleans itself. It isn't all run down, in my observation, as you said it was in yours. Since our observations differ, they can't be reconciled in a way that makes this an objective criterion.

This is where the logic gets a bit dogdy, for two reasons. First, I don't recall saying it was all run down, but rather, just run-down in general. Second, your observation that non-run-down buildings and areas of the county exist is only relevant to the extent that it can be used to show that Orleans is better than another county. I haven't seen that, so far.

Quote from: empirestate on December 07, 2020, 08:08:55 PM
I noticed that there must be at least some benefit–some aspect of value–that still lies that short drive away, in the city proper, rather than existing also in the suburbs. The evidence was that, as many people would, you had given your location as the city proper rather than any of its suburbs. You may not actually need to take the short drive to exploit that bit of value, but it's there nonetheless.

Sure, that's an aspect of value, but it's neither tangible nor directly comparable to the other types of benefits we were discussing.

Quote from: webny99 on December 08, 2020, 12:45:45 AM

Quote from: empirestate on December 07, 2020, 08:08:55 PM
Not on its own, but as one example of several factors that can't be shown to make a county objectively the worst, because the factors depend on one's personal opinion about them. That's the crux here, it's not the beach per se.

It does, however, make it worse than all the other counties with a lakeshore, so that narrows the search for a worse county down considerably.

It makes it worse to you that there's no good public beach in Orleans County. If you were a businessperson who wanted to charge for lake access, or a developer of private lakefront property, you'd probably say that it's better that it doesn't.

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 08, 2020, 01:09:48 AM

Quote from: webny99 on December 08, 2020, 12:45:45 AM

Quote from: empirestate on December 07, 2020, 08:08:55 PM
Not on its own, but as one example of several factors that can't be shown to make a county objectively the worst, because the factors depend on one's personal opinion about them. That's the crux here, it's not the beach per se.

It does, however, make it worse than all the other counties with a lakeshore, so that narrows the search for a worse county down considerably.

It makes it worse to you that there's no good public beach in Orleans County. If you were a businessperson who wanted to charge for lake access, or a developer of private lakefront property, you'd probably say that it's better that it doesn't.

I think that not only is there no good public beach in Orleans County I don't think there is a beach anywhere in the county let alone a good public one. Like I said in a previous post you'd think with a name like Lakeside Beach State Park that there would be a beach there. The entire shoreline has rocks and trees right up to the lake instead of a sand beach. I think going west of there too Tuscarora Beach is the only one I can think of that has a beach. Hamlin Beach State Park just east of the county line in Monroe County has a beach too.

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 08, 2020, 01:09:48 AM

Quote from: webny99 on December 08, 2020, 12:45:45 AM

Quote from: empirestate on December 07, 2020, 08:08:55 PM
Not on its own, but as one example of several factors that can't be shown to make a county objectively the worst, because the factors depend on one's personal opinion about them. That's the crux here, it's not the beach per se.

It does, however, make it worse than all the other counties with a lakeshore, so that narrows the search for a worse county down considerably.

It makes it worse to you that there's no good public beach in Orleans County. If you were a businessperson who wanted to charge for lake access, or a developer of private lakefront property, you'd probably say that it's better that it doesn't.

... except that any sensible businessperson or developer wouldn't be investing Orleans County in the first place.

Quote from: webny99 on December 08, 2020, 08:42:57 AM

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 08, 2020, 01:09:48 AM

Quote from: webny99 on December 08, 2020, 12:45:45 AM

Quote from: empirestate on December 07, 2020, 08:08:55 PM
Not on its own, but as one example of several factors that can't be shown to make a county objectively the worst, because the factors depend on one's personal opinion about them. That's the crux here, it's not the beach per se.

It does, however, make it worse than all the other counties with a lakeshore, so that narrows the search for a worse county down considerably.

It makes it worse to you that there's no good public beach in Orleans County. If you were a businessperson who wanted to charge for lake access, or a developer of private lakefront property, you'd probably say that it's better that it doesn't.

... except that any sensible businessperson or developer wouldn't be investing Orleans County in the first place.

How many businesses have you owned?

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 08, 2020, 05:04:35 PM

Quote from: webny99 on December 08, 2020, 08:42:57 AM

... except that any sensible businessperson or developer wouldn't be investing Orleans County in the first place.

How many businesses have you owned?

I imagine putting a business in Orleans County would be similar to putting a business in Youngstown, OH. Unless it's large enough that they think it can singlehandedly revitalize the region, they'll opt for a place that's not declining.

Quote from: 1 on December 08, 2020, 05:07:19 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 08, 2020, 05:04:35 PM

Quote from: webny99 on December 08, 2020, 08:42:57 AM

... except that any sensible businessperson or developer wouldn't be investing Orleans County in the first place.

How many businesses have you owned?

I imagine putting a business in Orleans County would be similar to putting a business in Youngstown, OH. Unless it's large enough that they think it can singlehandedly revitalize the region, they'll opt for a place that's not declining.

Well, yeah. But if you were a high-end developer who wanted to develop lakefront property, you'd see a declining county as equaling declining real estate prices, and you could buy it up for cheap and build fancy lakeshore houses that you sell for a big profit, without the nuisance and competition of a public beach nearby. I'm sure someone who's more up on planning could say more, but I believe this is the same process by which gentrification happens (buy up cheap projects because they're cheap and invest in them to make them desirable to higher-end consumers).

The point is not necessarily that this is a great idea or even that it's a viable business strategy, but rather that webny99's insistence that Orleans County is objectively the worst and must be seen as the worst by everyone always is bizarre, and because it is so absolutist, must inherently be wrong. Or rather, the things that are seen as making it terrible to webny99 are also things that could be seen as positives to someone with different motivations than webny99.

I will say that this thread has taught me a lot about Orleans County, New York, which I had never heard of before this thread and would have likely never heard of otherwise.

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 08, 2020, 05:04:35 PM
How many businesses have you owned?

None yet, but I'm close to a number of people who have, and I'm quite familiar with the business I work at and the business environment in general, having taken college-level business courses in high school and an additional one since.

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 08, 2020, 05:21:21 PM
But if you were a high-end developer who wanted to develop lakefront property, you'd see a declining county as equaling declining real estate prices, and you could buy it up for cheap and build fancy lakeshore houses that you sell for a big profit, without the nuisance and competition of a public beach nearby. I'm sure someone who's more up on planning could say more, but I believe this is the same process by which gentrification happens (buy up cheap projects because they're cheap and invest in them to make them desirable to higher-end consumers).

And that might even work in some places; perhaps Hamlin or western Wayne County, but Orleans is too far away from both Rochester and Buffalo to have the market for a significant number of high-end homes. Being "on the lake" isn't a big enough draw when it's in the middle of nowhere with no major attractions, including beaches, nearby. If someone wanted a summer-only home on the lake, they'd want proximity to conveniences and attractions with perhaps a bit of small-town charm, all things that Orleans lacks.

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 08, 2020, 05:21:21 PM
The point is not necessarily that this is a great idea or even that it's a viable business strategy, but rather that webny99's insistence that Orleans County is objectively the worst and must be seen as the worst by everyone always is bizarre, and because it is so absolutist, must inherently be wrong. Or rather, the things that are seen as making it terrible to webny99 are also things that could be seen as positives to someone with different motivations than webny99.

I think I've sufficiently acknowledged that it isn't provable and that the use of "objective" was poor word choice on my part. I do think there's a fairly reasonable, albeit non-objective, case for it, though, and my search for general agreement (or disagreement, as the case may be) has been interesting and perspective-broadening.

Quote from: webny99 on December 08, 2020, 06:12:52 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 08, 2020, 05:04:35 PM
How many businesses have you owned?

None yet, but I'm close to a number of people who have, and I'm quite familiar with the business I work at and the business environment in general, having taken college-level business courses in high school and an additional one since.

Okay. Well, I currently own two, not that either of them have made a net profit, but I do have some practical experience myself here.

Quote

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 08, 2020, 05:21:21 PM
But if you were a high-end developer who wanted to develop lakefront property, you'd see a declining county as equaling declining real estate prices, and you could buy it up for cheap and build fancy lakeshore houses that you sell for a big profit, without the nuisance and competition of a public beach nearby. I'm sure someone who's more up on planning could say more, but I believe this is the same process by which gentrification happens (buy up cheap projects because they're cheap and invest in them to make them desirable to higher-end consumers).

And that might even work in some places; perhaps Hamlin or western Wayne County, but Orleans is too far away from both Rochester and Buffalo to have the market for a significant number of high-end homes. Being "on the lake" isn't a big enough draw when it's in the middle of nowhere with no major attractions, including beaches, nearby. If someone wanted a summer-only home on the lake, they'd want proximity to conveniences and attractions with perhaps a bit of small-town charm, all things that Orleans lacks.

Sure, but you say that without having a million-dollar marketing campaign behind it. Marketing got people to believe you can't get married without buying a diamond, that breakfast is the most important meal of the day, and it's better to buy tap water in a plastic bottle than to just get the same water out of the tap. None of these things are true, but people believe them because there was ingenious marketing to brainwash persuade them otherwise.

When you take a course on marketing it will blow your freakin' mind what's possible. It's about selling a feeling, not a reality. And once people get hooked on a feeling, they will happily deny reality even if it's staring them in the face. (See every political campaign ever.)

So yeah, you could actually sell expensive lakefront property in Orleans County. Come visit our scenic, rustic lakefront retreat, far away from the distractions and stress of the big city life. Your own private getaway, you'll love being able to live your life at your own pace down at the lake.

...And that's with me having two days of marketing classes and zero financial stake in it. Imagine if someone with a marketing degree actually cared about selling it.

Quote
I think I've sufficiently acknowledged that it isn't provable and that the use of "objective" was poor word choice on my part. I do think there's a fairly reasonable, albeit non-objective, case for it, though, and my search for general agreement (or disagreement, as the case may be) has been interesting and perspective-broadening.

Oh, I think there's a reasonable case for it, and it is clearly the worst county to you. But I was simply trying to illustrate that, well, one man's trash is another's treasure.

Quote from: webny99 on December 08, 2020, 12:45:45 AM

Quote from: empirestate on December 07, 2020, 08:08:55 PM
Not on its own, but as one example of several factors that can't be shown to make a county objectively the worst, because the factors depend on one's personal opinion about them. That's the crux here, it's not the beach per se.

It does, however, make it worse than all the other counties with a lakeshore [...]

Not objectively, though.

Quote

Quote from: empirestate on December 07, 2020, 08:08:55 PM
No, not as compared with other counties, just the entirety of Orleans itself. It isn't all run down, in my observation, as you said it was in yours. Since our observations differ, they can't be reconciled in a way that makes this an objective criterion.

This is where the logic gets a bit dogdy, for two reasons. First, I don't recall saying it was all run down, but rather, just run-down in general.

Here's the statement I was replying to:

Quote from: webny99 on December 04, 2020, 11:04:34 AM[...] the difference with Orleans is that it's the whole county, not just parts of it.

QuoteSecond, your observation that non-run-down buildings and areas of the county exist is only relevant to the extent that it can be used to show that Orleans is better than another county. I haven't seen that, so far.

No, the relevance is just to contradict the above statement, by showing that there are places in the county that aren't run-down, as opposed to the whole of it being run-down. Remember, I'm not arguing a case for or against Orleans County being the worst, I'm only discussing whether the case you made was an objective one.

Quote from: empirestate on December 07, 2020, 08:08:55 PM
I noticed that there must be at least some benefit–some aspect of value–that still lies that short drive away, in the city proper, rather than existing also in the suburbs. The evidence was that, as many people would, you had given your location as the city proper rather than any of its suburbs. You may not actually need to take the short drive to exploit that bit of value, but it's there nonetheless.

Sure, that's an aspect of value, but it's neither tangible nor directly comparable to the other types of benefits we were discussing.
[/quote]

Right, that's the point. It's a value not comparable to those found in a suburb–it's something over and above them.

Anybody else getting "Beltway vs. sprjus but in slow motion" vibes from this argument?

Quote from: vdeane on December 08, 2020, 09:50:39 PM
Anybody else getting "Beltway vs. sprjus but in slow motion" vibes from this argument?

Much more civilized in tone, however.

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 08, 2020, 06:37:47 PM
So yeah, you could actually sell expensive lakefront property in Orleans County. Come visit our scenic, rustic lakefront retreat, far away from the distractions and stress of the big city life. Your own private getaway, you'll love being able to live your life at your own pace down at the lake.

...And that's with me having two days of marketing classes and zero financial stake in it. Imagine if someone with a marketing degree actually cared about selling it.

Yeah, I'm not disputing that you could market it. Certainly it's not an impossible thing to do. The second part, though, is the key... finding someone to spend the time and resources on marketing lakefront property in Orleans County when there's so many more attractive places (from both the seller and the buyer's perspective) just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Quote from: empirestate on December 08, 2020, 07:37:21 PM

Quote from: webny99 on December 08, 2020, 12:45:45 AM
It does, however, make it worse than all the other counties with a lakeshore [...]

Not objectively, though.

So the lakeshore being the worst doesn't necessarily, on its own, make the county the worst. That's why I mentioned several other potential factors.

Quote from: empirestate on December 08, 2020, 07:37:21 PM

QuoteSecond, your observation that non-run-down buildings and areas of the county exist is only relevant to the extent that it can be used to show that Orleans is better than another county. I haven't seen that, so far.

No, the relevance is just to contradict the above statement, by showing that there are places in the county that aren't run-down, as opposed to the whole of it being run-down. Remember, I'm not arguing a case for or against Orleans County being the worst, I'm only discussing whether the case you made was an objective one.

Again, "being run-down in general" and "having places that aren't run-down" are not mutually exclusive. It's run-down in general, that is objective.

Quote from: empirestate on December 08, 2020, 07:37:21 PM

Quote

Quote from: empirestate on December 07, 2020, 08:08:55 PM
I noticed that there must be at least some benefit–some aspect of value–that still lies that short drive away, in the city proper, rather than existing also in the suburbs. The evidence was that, as many people would, you had given your location as the city proper rather than any of its suburbs. You may not actually need to take the short drive to exploit that bit of value, but it's there nonetheless.

Sure, that's an aspect of value, but it's neither tangible nor directly comparable to the other types of benefits we were discussing.

Right, that's the point. It's a value not comparable to those found in a suburb–it's something over and above them.

You've construed that in a way that I'm finding challenging to untangle. When I said "not comparable", I meant that it was not directly comparable to the other benefits of the suburbs that we discussed because it was intangible.

You seem to be saying that it's not comparable because it doesn't exist in the suburbs. Although that may be true in the specific example of me using Rochester as my location, it's very dependent on the circumstances, and certainly not a universally applicable value-add for all cities over their respective suburbs.

Quote from: vdeane on December 08, 2020, 09:50:39 PM
Anybody else getting "Beltway vs. sprjus but in slow motion" vibes from this argument?

Surely you haven't forgotten "sequential vs. mileage based exits"!  :)

If one's idea of a good county to live in consists of these criteria ...

1.  A rural/small-town lifestyle without the hustle and bustle of the big city;

2.  Availability of lakefront property without a bunch of annoying beach-going tourists and vacation traffic;

3.  The opportunity to go rifle hunting for deer;

4.  A lake with bass fishing and a boat ramp;

4.  A Wal-Mart Supercenter;

... then Orleans County (NY) actually looks to be a pretty good place to live.

For New Hampshire, I'm going to say Rockingham County, although no county is truly bad.

Negatives:

• In a state filled with mountains, lakes, and covered bridges, it has very few. The coast is very touristy, but see my note below.
• Except for the coast, it's the conservative part of the state.
• Some of the towns, particularly the ones on the Massachusetts border, are retail hell for Massachusetts residents (no sales tax in NH), rather than their residents.
• Of all the places in the US where the minimum wage is the federal minimum wage, Southern New Hampshire has the highest cost of living.
• Some other counties have well-known universities going for them, such as the towns of Keene (Keene), Durham (UNH), Henniker (New England College), and Hanover (Dartmouth). Rockingham County has none.

Note that except for #2, these also apply to Nashua; county borders don't mean much in New Hampshire. If I could break it down to a 20-town region or so, I would also exclude the coastal towns as being in the worst. I'm not sure if I would include Nashua or not; while some of it is retail hell, it's also the second largest city in the state, and you would expect to have a lot of businesses there.

Quote from: webny99 on December 09, 2020, 12:54:09 AM
So the lakeshore being the worst doesn't necessarily, on its own, make the county the worst. That's why I mentioned several other potential factors.

Right, and those factors were, in general, not objective in nature.

QuoteAgain, "being run-down in general" and "having places that aren't run-down" are not mutually exclusive.

However, "the whole of x has the quality y" and "a portion of x does not have the quality y" are mutually exclusive. Because the second statement refutes the first, the first cannot stand as objective evidence of something.

QuoteIt's run-down in general, that is objective.

That something is "run-down" might be objective if there's a measurable definition for that term. "In general" may be too–well, general–a phrase to stand as indisputably objective. But you could establish, perhaps, that a greater proportion of Orleans than of any other county meets the criteria for "run-down". That could be a factor in an objective argument (although even then, there's still the question of whether "worst" itself has an objective denotation at all).

QuoteYou've construed that in a way that I'm finding challenging to untangle. When I said "not comparable", I meant that it was not directly comparable to the other benefits of the suburbs that we discussed because it was intangible.

That's how I construed it also.

QuoteYou seem to be saying that it's not comparable because it doesn't exist in the suburbs.

I'm saying, in essence, that it's not comparable because I'm not comparing them. In this branch of the conversation, I'm making a new observation, cumulative to those already made, but not standing in direct contrast or comparison to them.

QuoteAlthough that may be true in the specific example of me using Rochester as my location, it's very dependent on the circumstances, and certainly not a universally applicable value-add for all cities over their respective suburbs.

Well, it would be true for any central city that serves to identify people with bodies politic other than itself. Whether this factor adds value for all persons in all places, well, that is of course subjective. :-)

Quote from: webny99 on December 09, 2020, 10:41:59 AM
Surely you haven't forgotten "sequential vs. mileage based exits"!  :)

There's definitely a similarity there! My viewpoint in that question is, at is heart, a subjective one. And there was a pretty extensive attempt at making an objective case to persuade me otherwise. ;-)

Quote from: empirestate on December 09, 2020, 04:26:51 PM
However, "the whole of x has the quality y" and "a portion of x does not have the quality y" are mutually exclusive. Because the second statement refutes the first, the first cannot stand as objective evidence of something.

Here again, though, it depends on how "in general" is incorporated.

Quote
That something is "run-down" might be objective if there's a measurable definition for that term. "In general" may be too–well, general–a phrase to stand as indisputably objective. But you could establish, perhaps, that a greater proportion of Orleans than of any other county meets the criteria for "run-down". That could be a factor in an objective argument (although even then, there's still the question of whether "worst" itself has an objective denotation at all).

Well, "run down" does have a definition:
(especially of a building or area) in a poor or neglected state after having been prosperous.
(of a company or industry) in a poor economic state.
In this context, I think both of the above are applicable, but how to measure it in an objective way presents a challenge.

Quote
I'm saying, in essence, that it's not comparable because I'm not comparing them. In this branch of the conversation, I'm making a new observation, cumulative to those already made, but not standing in direct contrast or comparison to them.

Got it. No objection from me on that, then. I'm just fine with Rochester having a value that I don't need to visit to exploit!  :)

Quote

Quote from: webny99 on December 09, 2020, 10:41:59 AM
Surely you haven't forgotten "sequential vs. mileage based exits"!  :)

There's definitely a similarity there! My viewpoint in that question is, at is heart, a subjective one. And there was a pretty extensive attempt at making an objective case to persuade me otherwise. ;-)

Right, although interestingly, I never thought about it in the context of objectivity/subjectivity at the time.
This has been, essentially, somewhat of a reverse-engineered version of that: an attempt at a case for "the worst" instead of "the best" (or really in that case just "better").

Quote from: webny99 on December 09, 2020, 10:32:05 PM
Here again, though, it depends on how "in general" is incorporated.

No, "in general" isn't part of the statement I'm rebutting. Here's the whole thing:

QuoteOf course, every county has its run-down areas, but the difference with Orleans is that it's the whole county, not just parts of it.

I responded that, since there are parts of it that are not run-down, then it is indeed "just parts of it" that are, and hence the "whole county" isn't run-down. Now I'm sure you didn't mean to be that literal in writing "the whole county", but in order for the statement to stand as an objective one, it would have to be able to withstand such a literal construction.

QuoteWell, "run down" does have a definition:
(especially of a building or area) in a poor or neglected state after having been prosperous.
(of a company or industry) in a poor economic state.
In this context, I think both of the above are applicable, but how to measure it in an objective way presents a challenge.

Right, the commonly-understood definition, while applicable, is fairly subjective. But you could probably find some kind of way to measure the decline in property values and its relation to the cost of deferred maintenance on them, etc. There's probably some such metric already established, somewhere.

QuoteGot it. No objection from me on that, then. I'm just fine with Rochester having a value that I don't need to visit to exploit!  :)

And I'm happy to offer an observation that isn't automatically subject to objection. ;-)

QuoteRight, although interestingly, I never thought about it in the context of objectivity/subjectivity at the time.
This has been, essentially, somewhat of a reverse-engineered version of that: an attempt at a case for "the worst" instead of "the best" (or really in that case just "better").

Yeah, that's the struggle I keep seeing. In that question, my viewpoint was, "I don't think the conversion to mile-based numbering is beneficial enough to be worthwhile." The opposite of my viewpoint would then be, "I think the conversion to mile-based numbering is beneficial enough to be worthwhile." While a number of arguments were presented to support that "the conversion is beneficial", there didn't seem to be any that supported "I think the conversion is beneficial."

Conversely (or is it inversely?), in this case there are arguments being made to support "you think Orleans County is the worst," but not to support "Orleans County is the worst." (As with most disagreements, in my observation, the dispute lies not in what the answer is, but what the question is.)

I've never been there, but Albion doesn't look very run-down to me from what I've seen on GSV, and the lakefront properties along Lake Ontario appear to be quite charming.  Also, this looks (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Medina+Falls/@43.2224982,-78.3828845,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipNmRL0yMPpVUvpeusiUM3RZyl42h_QJYeqkVIHX!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipNmRL0yMPpVUvpeusiUM3RZyl42h_QJYeqkVIHX%3Dw203-h152-k-no!7i4032!8i3024!4m15!1m7!3m6!1s0x89d41105a0f5cb23:0xc14fea72db78047a!2sOrleans+County,+NY!3b1!8m2!3d43.4088624!4d-78.2020387!3m6!1s0x89d475976f763b4f:0x50337dc981567744!8m2!3d43.2224983!4d-78.3828847!14m1!1BCgIgAQ?hl=en) like a pretty cool place to visit.

Quote from: 1 on December 09, 2020, 03:03:48 PM
For New Hampshire, I'm going to say Rockingham County, although no county is truly bad.

Negatives:

• Except for the coast, it's the conservative part of the state.

Everything in perspective, I suppose. I would consider being a conservative area a positive, not a negative. It's one reason Jefferson County, Ky., is the one I rank as "worst." It's the most liberal county in the state, and the only liberal in Kentucky's congressional delegation is from there, as are the majority of liberals in the state legislature.

Quote from: kphoger on December 10, 2020, 10:42:39 AM
I've never been there, but Albion doesn't look very run-down to me from what I've seen on GSV, and the lakefront properties along Lake Ontario appear to be quite charming.  Also, this looks (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Medina+Falls/@43.2224982,-78.3828845,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipNmRL0yMPpVUvpeusiUM3RZyl42h_QJYeqkVIHX!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipNmRL0yMPpVUvpeusiUM3RZyl42h_QJYeqkVIHX%3Dw203-h152-k-no!7i4032!8i3024!4m15!1m7!3m6!1s0x89d41105a0f5cb23:0xc14fea72db78047a!2sOrleans+County,+NY!3b1!8m2!3d43.4088624!4d-78.2020387!3m6!1s0x89d475976f763b4f:0x50337dc981567744!8m2!3d43.2224983!4d-78.3828847!14m1!1BCgIgAQ?hl=en) like a pretty cool place to visit.

I had to Google Orleans County to see where it is. I've been there, but I don't remember the circumstances of how I visited it (probably a short detour when I attended the Rochester meet many years ago.) Obviously, nothing stuck out as memorable in either a good or bad way for me. But looking on the map, I wouldn't rank it negatively for a number of reasons, since it's sandwiched between two metro areas (Rochester and Buffalo). I'd liken its location to Franklin County, Ky., which is between Louisville and Lexington for those who want big-city amenities but don't want to live in an urban area.[/list]

I must say thanks to this topic here I now know more about Orleans County, New York than I ever have. I didn't even know of it before.

Quote from: Flint1979 on December 10, 2020, 04:25:16 PM
I must say thanks to this topic here I now know more about Orleans County, New York than I ever have. I didn't even know of it before.

Whether I find all this newfound knowledge about the county to be personally useful, though, is another story. :P

Quote from: empirestate on December 10, 2020, 10:27:14 AM
I responded that, since there are parts of it that are not run-down, then it is indeed "just parts of it" that are, and hence the "whole county" isn't run-down. Now I'm sure you didn't mean to be that literal in writing "the whole county", but in order for the statement to stand as an objective one, it would have to be able to withstand such a literal construction.

Well, the only realistic revision I could make is to "a majority", or perhaps "a greater percentage than other counties", but that gets iffy in terms of provability.

Quote from: empirestate on December 10, 2020, 10:27:14 AM
Right, the commonly-understood definition, while applicable, is fairly subjective. But you could probably find some kind of way to measure the decline in property values and its relation to the cost of deferred maintenance on them, etc. There's probably some such metric already established, somewhere.

I could dive into that, but it sounds like a lot of work because, as you mentioned, it's a fairly subjective term when used as a broad header, and for that reason, I think this sub-topic has pretty much run its course.

Quote from: empirestate on December 10, 2020, 10:27:14 AM
Yeah, that's the struggle I keep seeing. In that question, my viewpoint was, "I don't think the conversion to mile-based numbering is beneficial enough to be worthwhile." The opposite of my viewpoint would then be, "I think the conversion to mile-based numbering is beneficial enough to be worthwhile." While a number of arguments were presented to support that "the conversion is beneficial", there didn't seem to be any that supported "I think the conversion is beneficial."

As for your last clause, if you mean that there was no evidence that you thought the conversion was beneficial, then yes, that seemed to be the case, although it wasn't for lack of evidence so much as your refusal to let the evidence sway what you think.

Quote from: empirestate on December 10, 2020, 10:27:14 AM
Conversely (or is it inversely?), in this case there are arguments being made to support "you think Orleans County is the worst," but not to support "Orleans County is the worst." (As with most disagreements, in my observation, the dispute lies not in what the answer is, but what the question is.)

It really does come down to whether something is provable, and in most cases, if people are disagreeing, it isn't. But that doesn't prevent it from generating interesting debate and discussion.

Quote from: Flint1979 on December 10, 2020, 04:25:16 PM
I must say thanks to this topic here I now know more about Orleans County, New York than I ever have. I didn't even know of it before.

Quote from: The Nature Boy on December 08, 2020, 05:44:19 PM
I will say that this thread has taught me a lot about Orleans County, New York, which I had never heard of before this thread and would have likely never heard of otherwise.

And that makes the whole thing that much more worthwhile, because you never know what you might learn or when it might come in handy! If this was between two other users about a county in their home state, I'd still be following along, perhaps with a few chuckles to myself, for that very reason.

Cruising around on Zillow, I see a number of lakefront properties in Orleans County that only cost about $50,000 more than my house in Norman does. If I were looking to move somewhere in the area, I'd probably give them a serious thought.

Quote from: kphoger on December 10, 2020, 10:42:39 AM
I've never been there, but Albion doesn't look very run-down to me from what I've seen on GSV, and the lakefront properties along Lake Ontario appear to be quite charming.  Also, this looks (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Medina+Falls/@43.2224982,-78.3828845,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipNmRL0yMPpVUvpeusiUM3RZyl42h_QJYeqkVIHX!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipNmRL0yMPpVUvpeusiUM3RZyl42h_QJYeqkVIHX%3Dw203-h152-k-no!7i4032!8i3024!4m15!1m7!3m6!1s0x89d41105a0f5cb23:0xc14fea72db78047a!2sOrleans+County,+NY!3b1!8m2!3d43.4088624!4d-78.2020387!3m6!1s0x89d475976f763b4f:0x50337dc981567744!8m2!3d43.2224983!4d-78.3828847!14m1!1BCgIgAQ?hl=en) like a pretty cool place to visit.

All this praise for one of New York's lesser counties really just goes to show what a great state it is!  :-P

Joking aside, as for the houses being charming, that's very relative. Much of - if not almost all - the rest of the lakeshore is more "desireable", and nothing in Orleans is going to compare to say, Lake Road in Webster in terms of the cosmetics, investment, and general affability of the area.
I do want to thank you for pointing out Medina Falls, because, although I've driven through Medina several times, I've never noticed or been to that waterfall, so you've given me something to check out next time!  :thumbsup:

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 10, 2020, 04:37:22 PM
Whether I find all this newfound knowledge about the county to be personally useful, though, is another story. :P

Well, sure, but the extent to which that's the case actually reflects on the county itself. In other words, if this whole conversation were instead about next-door Niagara County, home to Niagara Falls, there's a much greater chance you'd find that to be useful because you might end up there on a visit to Niagara Falls someday.

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 10, 2020, 06:16:33 PM
Cruising around on Zillow, I see a number of lakefront properties in Orleans County that only cost about $50,000 more than my house in Norman does. If I were looking to move somewhere in the area, I'd probably give them a serious thought.

If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

One of the catches here is that while a lakefront home would make a nice pleasant place to live in the summer, winters in Upstate New York are brutal. If you're not used to a lot of snow, you're in for a big shock... and all the more so in a remote rural area with fewer neighbors, plow trucks, grocery stores, and other signs of civilization nearby.

I could be wrong, but I suspect a significant percentage of those lakefront homes are vacant in the winter.

Also keep in mind that anything on the lakefront is subject to heavy erosion in high water years (which, so far at least, have included 2017 and 2019).

Quote from: webny99 on December 10, 2020, 07:24:57 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 10, 2020, 06:16:33 PM
Cruising around on Zillow, I see a number of lakefront properties in Orleans County that only cost about $50,000 more than my house in Norman does. If I were looking to move somewhere in the area, I'd probably give them a serious thought.

If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

One of the catches here is that while a lakefront home would make a nice pleasant place to live in the summer, winters in Upstate New York are brutal. If you're not used to a lot of snow, you're in for a big shock... and all the more so in a remote rural area with fewer neighbors, plow trucks, grocery stores, and other signs of civilization nearby.

I could be wrong, but I suspect a significant percentage of those lakefront homes are vacant in the winter.

Which is why I qualified that with "if I were looking to move to the area", as in "I am required to move to upstate New York under threat of death, more or less".

Otherwise I couldn't see myself living anywhere in the U.S. north of about Kansas City, cause while I can deal with 110° temperatures and tornadoes, five inches of snow a year is enough for me. :P

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 10, 2020, 09:51:55 PM
Otherwise I couldn't see myself living anywhere in the U.S. north of about Kansas City, cause while I can deal with 110° temperatures and tornadoes, five inches of snow a year is enough for me. :P

What about being on the Pacific coast?

Quote from: 1 on December 10, 2020, 09:56:04 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 10, 2020, 09:51:55 PM
Otherwise I couldn't see myself living anywhere in the U.S. north of about Kansas City, cause while I can deal with 110° temperatures and tornadoes, five inches of snow a year is enough for me. :P

What about being on the Pacific coast?

I could probably do Washington myself, although I don't know if the rain up there would interfere with my wife's mental health, so that may be a consideration. She's originally from San Diego, so if we were to move to the Pacific coast we'd probably end up in Southern California.

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 10, 2020, 09:51:55 PM
Which is why I qualified that with "if I were looking to move to the area", as in "I am required to move to upstate New York under threat of death, more or less".

Otherwise I couldn't see myself living anywhere in the U.S. north of about Kansas City, cause while I can deal with 110° temperatures and tornadoes, five inches of snow a year is enough for me. :P

Ha, well at least from November to March, this would certainly be the opposite of that: more like 5° temperatures and 110 inches of snow. No tornadoes, though!

Quote from: webny99 on December 10, 2020, 06:01:44 PM

Quote from: empirestate on December 10, 2020, 10:27:14 AM
I responded that, since there are parts of it that are not run-down, then it is indeed "just parts of it" that are, and hence the "whole county" isn't run-down. Now I'm sure you didn't mean to be that literal in writing "the whole county", but in order for the statement to stand as an objective one, it would have to be able to withstand such a literal construction.

Well, the only realistic revision I could make is to "a majority", or perhaps "a greater percentage than other counties", but that gets iffy in terms of provability.

Well, it's certainly a lot less iffy than "the whole county"... :-D

And anyway, when you come right down to it, even a run-down part of Upstate looks a lot cleaner and tidier than a middle-income area down here. (I haven't nailed down why that is, but it definitely noticeable when you've lived in both areas.)

QuoteI could dive into that, but it sounds like a lot of work because, as you mentioned, it's a fairly subjective term when used as a broad header, and for that reason, I think this sub-topic has pretty much run its course.

Yeah, I don't know that there's much to be gained from trying, since you're not expected to make an objective case for your choice of worst county. It's perfectly adequate to just say, "I think Orleans is the worst."

QuoteAs for your last clause, if you mean that there was no evidence that you thought the conversion was beneficial, then yes, that seemed to be the case, although it wasn't for lack of evidence so much as your refusal to let the evidence sway what you think.

Oh, it was absolutely for lack of evidence–or more precisely, for the lack of any new or updated information on which to base my opinion. All of the evidence that was presented was stuff I'd already considered in forming my viewpoint; I would've needed something new to change that balance. So it wasn't anything so active as refusing to be swayed, it's simply that what swaying there was to be done had already been done.

QuoteIt really does come down to whether something is provable, and in most cases, if people are disagreeing, it isn't. But that doesn't prevent it from generating interesting debate and discussion.

Um, I'm not sure if you've noticed recently, but there's an awful lot of people out there disagreeing with an awful lot of perfectly provable stuff... ;-)

Quote from: kphoger on December 10, 2020, 10:42:39 AM
I've never been there, but Albion doesn't look very run-down to me from what I've seen on GSV, and the lakefront properties along Lake Ontario appear to be quite charming.

Albion's about typical for Upstate villages, especially those along the Erie Canal. And there are, indeed, some very interesting properties along the lake. Good orchard territory, too. Meanwhile, in the south part of the county you've got some rich and extensive mucklands.

Once you get over to Holley, you're in Brockport's sphere of influence–so basically, the suburbs of a college town, itself an exurb of Rochester. (Here (https://goo.gl/maps/1mexowLiR998iYJY7)'s a view of its 100% run-down main square.) :cool:

Quote from: webny99 on December 10, 2020, 07:24:57 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 10, 2020, 06:16:33 PM
Cruising around on Zillow, I see a number of lakefront properties in Orleans County that only cost about $50,000 more than my house in Norman does. If I were looking to move somewhere in the area, I'd probably give them a serious thought.

If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

One of the catches here is that while a lakefront home would make a nice pleasant place to live in the summer, winters in Upstate New York are brutal. If you're not used to a lot of snow, you're in for a big shock... and all the more so in a remote rural area with fewer neighbors, plow trucks, grocery stores, and other signs of civilization nearby.

I could be wrong, but I suspect a significant percentage of those lakefront homes are vacant in the winter.

It'd be basically like winters in the U.P. of Michigan especially the Keweenaw Peninsula.

Syracuse gets 123 inches.
Rochester gets 99 inches.
Buffalo gets 95 inches.

Marquette gets 117 inches.
Sault Ste. Marie gets 120 inches.
Houghton gets 218 inches.
Escanaba only gets 49 inches.

As the crow flies Houghton and Escanaba are only 117 miles apart.

For a Lower Peninsula city Saginaw gets 41 inches.

Lake effect snow is a huge factor around the Great Lakes obviously.

Quote from: empirestate on December 11, 2020, 12:17:05 AM

Quote from: webny99 on December 10, 2020, 06:01:44 PM
Well, the only realistic revision I could make is to "a majority", or perhaps "a greater percentage than other counties", but that gets iffy in terms of provability.

Well, it's certainly a lot less iffy than "the whole county"... :-D

"The whole county" actually isn't particularly iffy. With the "in general" qualifier, then it's a reasonable statement. Without the qualifier, then it's beyond iffy because, as we've established, it can be fairly easily disproved altogether.

Using another qualifier such as "a majority", however, can't be dismissed so easily. It would take an extensive amount of time and effort to prove or disprove, because it would require getting a lot more granular than we have so far.

Quote from: empirestate on December 11, 2020, 12:17:05 AM
And anyway, when you come right down to it, even a run-down part of Upstate looks a lot cleaner and tidier than a middle-income area down here. (I haven't nailed down why that is, but it definitely noticeable when you've lived in both areas.)

"Down here" being central Long Island, IIRC?

Quote from: empirestate on December 11, 2020, 12:17:05 AM
Oh, it was absolutely for lack of evidence–or more precisely, for the lack of any new or updated information on which to base my opinion. All of the evidence that was presented was stuff I'd already considered in forming my viewpoint; I would've needed something new to change that balance. So it wasn't anything so active as refusing to be swayed, it's simply that what swaying there was to be done had already been done.

I don't think we're really disagreeing on that, then, but to the extent that there's a distinction to be made, it seems to me that "I already know everything there is to know" is a more concerning attitude than "I refuse to be swayed".

Quote from: empirestate on December 11, 2020, 12:17:05 AM
Um, I'm not sure if you've noticed recently, but there's an awful lot of people out there disagreeing with an awful lot of perfectly provable stuff... ;-)

If you're referring to what I think you are, it's not so much a question of provability as it is one of validity. It's hard to explain the distinction without getting deep into territory that we shouldn't on this forum, but suffice to say that bits of truth can sometimes be used as evidence that would seem to be in direct contrast to the actual big picture truth in a way that's difficult for the average person to reconcile.

I'll add St. Lawrence County, NY to the list. My dad lived in Gouverneur from 2009-2015. I had been there twice. The last time was Thanksgiving, 2014. The poverty that I saw on some of the side roads further cemented my belief that Albany only cares for affairs below it.

When I was traveling across New York one time on the Thruway this was back in 2004. I stopped to eat at a diner in Canajoharie and thought that was an unusual town maybe not for New York standards but it just seemed like everything was strange there. So maybe Montgomery County is the worst I dunno though. I doubt it is.

Quote from: webny99 on December 11, 2020, 08:43:26 AM
"The whole county" actually isn't particularly iffy. With the "in general" qualifier, then it's a reasonable statement. Without the qualifier, then it's beyond iffy because, as we've established, it can be fairly easily disproved altogether.

Well, that's true, isn't it. There really was no "if" about it. :-)

Quote

Quote from: empirestate on December 11, 2020, 12:17:05 AM
And anyway, when you come right down to it, even a run-down part of Upstate looks a lot cleaner and tidier than a middle-income area down here. (I haven't nailed down why that is, but it definitely noticeable when you've lived in both areas.)

"Down here" being central Long Island, IIRC?

No, Hudson Valley. But I mean Downstate in general.

QuoteI don't think we're really disagreeing on that, then, but to the extent that there's a distinction to be made, it seems to me that "I already know everything there is to know" is a more concerning attitude than "I refuse to be swayed".

Perhaps so, but that wasn't my stance during that discussion. If you'll remember, I eagerly asked for any new information to come to light that I hadn't already considered, but the only forthcoming arguments were the same things I already knew about the topic (mostly the various benefits of distance-based numbering).

Quote

Quote from: empirestate on December 11, 2020, 12:17:05 AM
Um, I'm not sure if you've noticed recently, but there's an awful lot of people out there disagreeing with an awful lot of perfectly provable stuff... ;-)

If you're referring to what I think you are, it's not so much a question of provability as it is one of validity. It's hard to explain the distinction without getting deep into territory that we shouldn't on this forum, but suffice to say that bits of truth can sometimes be used as evidence that would seem to be in direct contrast to the actual big picture truth in a way that's difficult for the average person to reconcile.

From your description, it doesn't sound like I am. I'm referring to things that can be known, and are known, to be true. And then some people don't know them to be true, and as a result, they mistakenly believe that they know them not to be true. So they disagree that the thing is true, even though it can be proven to be true.

It can also to apply to things that are knowable, but not actually known. You'll often hear someone say that, because the thing hasn't yet been shown to be true, that means it's been shown not to be true–the common trap of "absence of evidence..."

Quote from: empirestate on December 11, 2020, 04:04:17 PM

Quote

Quote from: empirestate on December 11, 2020, 12:17:05 AM
And anyway, when you come right down to it, even a run-down part of Upstate looks a lot cleaner and tidier than a middle-income area down here. (I haven't nailed down why that is, but it definitely noticeable when you've lived in both areas.)

"Down here" being central Long Island, IIRC?

No, Hudson Valley. But I mean Downstate in general.

OK, gotcha. I haven't been around downstate enough to make a fair comparison, but I do think upstate suburbs are generally high-quality and well-kept for the most part; rural areas not so much, although it does depend.

The main contrast I'd draw is actually not related to cosmetics: downstate suburbs (thinking of Rockland/Westchester here, not Long Island) are much more intense than ours, with dense vegetation, hilly, twisty roads across varying terrain, and a lot less neighborhood character than I'm used to. It feels like you're in the wilderness and the dense suburbia was a craftily-fitted afterthought.

Quote from: empirestate on December 11, 2020, 04:04:17 PM
Perhaps so, but that wasn't my stance during that discussion. If you'll remember, I eagerly asked for any new information to come to light that I hadn't already considered, but the only forthcoming arguments were the same things I already knew about the topic (mostly the various benefits of distance-based numbering).

The problem, of course, is that I'm not sure there's any additional information to present.

Quote from: empirestate on December 11, 2020, 04:04:17 PM
From your description, it doesn't sound like I am. I'm referring to things that can be known, and are known, to be true. And then some people don't know them to be true, and as a result, they mistakenly believe that they know them not to be true. So they disagree that the thing is true, even though it can be proven to be true.

It can also to apply to things that are knowable, but not actually known. You'll often hear someone say that, because the thing hasn't yet been shown to be true, that means it's been shown not to be true–the common trap of "absence of evidence..."

I see what you're saying. To a certain extent, that's actually fairly applicable to the discussion we've been having: I've been arguing Orleans is worst until we prove it isn't (guilty until proven innocent), and you've been arguing that Orleans isn't worst until we prove it is (innocent until proven guilty).
Of course, the caveat is that you're referring to cases where what's correct is objective, which is not the case with the "worst county" discussion.

So, who is hosting the 2021 Orleans County Roadmeet?

Guess I gotta check out Orleans County.

Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on December 11, 2020, 10:53:38 PM
So, who is hosting the 2021 Orleans County Roadmeet?

Well, if there's ever a roadmeet in the general vicinity, it probably HAS to be on the itinerary now!

Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on December 11, 2020, 10:53:38 PM
So, who is hosting the 2021 Orleans County Roadmeet?

I think webny99 should do the honors since he loves the county so much lol.

I'm not going to be hosting a roadmeet for reasons I won't get into now, but if I was going to, I'd pick my home county of Monroe, and not just because of bias; it really does have a lot more interesting things to see, both road-related and otherwise.

The NY 31/36/531 reconstruction might be of interest for anyone that hasn't seen it, and that's almost to Orleans County.  :-P

Quote from: webny99 on December 12, 2020, 11:45:53 AM
I'm not going to be hosting a roadmeet for reasons I won't get into now, but if I was going to, I'd pick my home county of Monroe, and not just because of bias; it really does have a lot more interesting things to see, both road-related and otherwise.

The NY 31/36/531 reconstruction might be of interest for anyone that hasn't seen it, and that's almost to Orleans County.  :-P

Sissy.

Quote from: webny99 on December 11, 2020, 09:12:41 PM
OK, gotcha. I haven't been around downstate enough to make a fair comparison, but I do think upstate suburbs are generally high-quality and well-kept for the most part; rural areas not so much, although it does depend.

Rural areas statewide are less prosperous than they once were, just because of agri-political history in general. The reason this shows more upstate than downstate is probably because there simply isn't much rural area downstate. However, the areas of Dutchess and Orange Counties, closer to the major market center, do show as a little more prosperous than elsewhere in the state. At least part of that is due to the "gentleman farmer" factor that you get in the back-country of a major urban center.

QuoteThe main contrast I'd draw is actually not related to cosmetics: downstate suburbs (thinking of Rockland/Westchester here, not Long Island) are much more intense than ours, with dense vegetation, hilly, twisty roads across varying terrain, and a lot less neighborhood character than I'm used to. It feels like you're in the wilderness and the dense suburbia was a craftily-fitted afterthought.

It's something like that, yes. The far suburban and exurban areas north of NYC are still pretty wild country...that just happens to have a lot of development crammed into it. That just doesn't work out as neatly as laying a city across the relatively open territory of the Great Lakes. And also, probably, the cost of living downstate is markedly higher, with the result that many people have less to spend on cosmetic upkeep, even if they're relatively well-off otherwise.

Quote

Quote from: empirestate on December 11, 2020, 04:04:17 PM
Perhaps so, but that wasn't my stance during that discussion. If you'll remember, I eagerly asked for any new information to come to light that I hadn't already considered, but the only forthcoming arguments were the same things I already knew about the topic (mostly the various benefits of distance-based numbering).

The problem, of course, is that I'm not sure there's any additional information to present.

Which, of course, is only a problem if you're hoping for me to change my mind. :-)

QuoteI see what you're saying. To a certain extent, that's actually fairly applicable to the discussion we've been having: I've been arguing Orleans is worst until we prove it isn't (guilty until proven innocent), and you've been arguing that Orleans isn't worst until we prove it is (innocent until proven guilty).

Not quite–I'm not saying we can or should prove it either way. I'm saying that Orleans County is the worst to you, as it's an opinion. You said, or seemed to say, that it's provably the worst–meaning it's the worst for everyone, whether they know it or not, because it's based on objective fact.

QuoteOf course, the caveat is that you're referring to cases where what's correct is objective, which is not the case with the "worst county" discussion.

Right, and specifically, cases where what's correct is objective, but because people are disagreeing, they give the false impression that, by definition, what's correct is not objective.

Quote from: webny99 on December 12, 2020, 11:45:53 AM
I'm not going to be hosting a roadmeet for reasons I won't get into now, but if I was going to, I'd pick my home county of Monroe, and not just because of bias; it really does have a lot more interesting things to see, both road-related and otherwise.

The one road-related point of interest in Orleans County (besides, arguably, the LOSP terminus) is the culvert under the Erie Canal–the only such crossing by road of that waterway–and I've already got the photo on my website. (As does Google, but the GSV vehicle couldn't fit through the culvert itself.)

Quote from: empirestate on December 12, 2020, 04:36:20 PM
... However, the areas of Dutchess and Orange Counties, closer to the major market center, do show as a little more prosperous than elsewhere in the state. At least part of that is due to the "gentleman farmer" factor that you get in the back-country of a major urban center.

I'm not familiar with the "gentleman farmer" factor, but from the context you give, it sounds like it could be applied to a place like Ontario County as well: relatively prosperous, exurban in nature, and likely the first place that comes to city folks' mind when they think of "the countryside".

Quote from: empirestate on December 12, 2020, 04:36:20 PM
It's something like that, yes. The far suburban and exurban areas north of NYC are still pretty wild country...that just happens to have a lot of development crammed into it. That just doesn't work out as neatly as laying a city across the relatively open territory of the Great Lakes. And also, probably, the cost of living downstate is markedly higher, with the result that many people have less to spend on cosmetic upkeep, even if they're relatively well-off otherwise.

Cost of living is no doubt an important factor. Development patterns are probably another: downstate has a lot of areas where old and new blended together as density increased, whereas here (and in Buffalo/Syracuse; can't speak for Albany) it's more traditional rings, with "old money" areas surrounding the immediate urban core and "new money" areas of progressively newer developments further afield.

Quote from: empirestate on December 12, 2020, 04:36:20 PM
Not quite–I'm not saying we can or should prove it either way. I'm saying that Orleans County is the worst to you, as it's an opinion. You said, or seemed to say, that it's provably the worst–meaning it's the worst for everyone, whether they know it or not, because it's based on objective fact.

Right, which is why I added the caveat about my point being not directly applicable in terms of objectivity. While you and I can distinguish between what's provable and what isn't, there are plenty of people who have trouble distinguishing between two otherwise very similar types of argument, which is part of what I think you were getting at.

Quote from: empirestate on December 12, 2020, 04:36:20 PM
The one road-related point of interest in Orleans County (besides, arguably, the LOSP terminus) is the culvert under the Erie Canal–the only such crossing by road of that waterway–and I've already got the photo on my website. (As does Google, but the GSV vehicle couldn't fit through the culvert itself.)

Which reminds me, I will definitely have to check that out sometime. Perhaps there are a few interesting tidbits in what I'd otherwise regard as my personal "flyover country"!  :)

Seriously though if I ever do get into New York doing some county clinching and hit Orleans County I will think of this thread. Like I said earlier it's an island county for me so I'm all for going to grab it, same with Wayne County, NY.

Quote from: Flint1979 on December 12, 2020, 08:52:29 PM
Seriously though if I ever do get into New York doing some county clinching and hit Orleans County I will think of this thread. Like I said earlier it's an island county for me so I'm all for going to grab it, same with Wayne County, NY.

I think there's a pattern here. Wayne County, MI and Orleans Parish, LA both have islands, but unlike the ones in NY, contain the largest city in their state...

Quote from: empirestate on December 12, 2020, 04:36:20 PM

Quote from: webny99 on December 12, 2020, 11:45:53 AM
I'm not going to be hosting a roadmeet for reasons I won't get into now, but if I was going to, I'd pick my home county of Monroe, and not just because of bias; it really does have a lot more interesting things to see, both road-related and otherwise.

The one road-related point of interest in Orleans County (besides, arguably, the LOSP terminus) is the culvert under the Erie Canal–the only such crossing by road of that waterway–and I've already got the photo on my website. (As does Google, but the GSV vehicle couldn't fit through the culvert itself.)

I could see a roadmeet working in the area.  I'd probably have it start in Medina or Albion and include at least one of the lift bridges, the closed bridge on Brown Street, the culvert, the truss bridge over the canal near Medina Falls, drive by the old rail cars near the Medina Train Museum, the arch bridge on NY 63 in Lydonville, the parkway stubs, and the Lake Ontario waterfront at the park at Oak Orchard Lighthouse in Point Breeze.

Quote from: index on November 26, 2020, 02:44:49 PM
Robeson. Anyone who knows Lumberton won't need an explanation. That place has an average IQ of 60.

Born in Lumberton. My family likes Lumberton so much, they went to Fayetteville to do literally anything.

As for my state? Hmm...

Hey there! Wanna get shot? Wanna see flat farmland that you can find elsewhere in America? Wanna buy inferior things that our pesky neighbors - *mumble* Lancaster County *mumble* - sell for cheaper prices AND better quality? Come to York County! Our claim to fame is our singular covered bridge and the 36% poverty rate of York!

Other states I've frequented, over the last 10 years, with counties I hate:
Howard County, MD - Nothing but Baltimore-Washington suburbia. Haven't bothered to finish upgrading MD 32 to freeway, because gated communities. Claim to fame is their fairgrounds, since I guess no other US county holds county fairs.

Richmond County, NY (Staten Island) - Why would anyone go to Staten Island? I mean, Long Island, I can understand going out there: you're either absurdly rich to own a house in the Hamptons, or Montauk Lighthouse. Jersey City makes a better fifth borough since they have the Statue of Liberty AND Ellis Island in their city limits.

Berkeley County, WV - Y'know, I don't hate this county as much as other WV counties. But, compared to other places in WV I've been to: New River Gorge, Seneca Rocks, Blackwater Falls, even Corridor H - this doesn't have much going for it. Even Harper's Ferry is in the neighboring county. All the good stuff is in Virginia (Luray Caverns, for example) or further west into the meat of WV. Martinsburg feels like an inferior Winchester with more traffic woes on its commercial strip (b/c of badly timed lights).

Quote from: vdeane on December 13, 2020, 12:50:31 AM
I could see a roadmeet working in the area.  I'd probably have it start in Medina or Albion and include at least one of the lift bridges, the closed bridge on Brown Street, the culvert, the truss bridge over the canal near Medina Falls, drive by the old rail cars near the Medina Train Museum, the arch bridge on NY 63 in Lydonville, the parkway stubs, and the Lake Ontario waterfront at the park at Oak Orchard Lighthouse in Point Breeze.

The little bridge into Lakeside Park could be worth a stop as well. I mean, if you're into that kind of thing.

Quote from: noelbotevera on December 13, 2020, 03:43:02 PM
Richmond County, NY (Staten Island) - Why would anyone go to Staten Island?

Sounds like you've not been before. :-)

For a direct answer, I have gone there a number of times for work. So there's that.

Otherwise, there's some fascinating stuff there. Sailors Snug Harbor is one of those "you'd never believe you're in NYC" places. But even just the free ferry ride and a SI Yankees game (or whoever ends up replacing them), with a unique view of the Manhattan skyline, is worth seeing. You can get great food and hear live music at Adobe Blues not far away. And we've barely penetrated the borough...

QuoteJersey City makes a better fifth borough since they have the Statue of Liberty AND Ellis Island in their city limits.

:popcorn:

Quote from: vdeane on December 13, 2020, 12:50:31 AM

Quote from: empirestate on December 12, 2020, 04:36:20 PM

Quote from: webny99 on December 12, 2020, 11:45:53 AM
I'm not going to be hosting a roadmeet for reasons I won't get into now, but if I was going to, I'd pick my home county of Monroe, and not just because of bias; it really does have a lot more interesting things to see, both road-related and otherwise.

The one road-related point of interest in Orleans County (besides, arguably, the LOSP terminus) is the culvert under the Erie Canal–the only such crossing by road of that waterway–and I've already got the photo on my website. (As does Google, but the GSV vehicle couldn't fit through the culvert itself.)

I could see a roadmeet working in the area.  I'd probably have it start in Medina or Albion and include at least one of the lift bridges, the closed bridge on Brown Street, the culvert, the truss bridge over the canal near Medina Falls, drive by the old rail cars near the Medina Train Museum, the arch bridge on NY 63 in Lydonville, the parkway stubs, and the Lake Ontario waterfront at the park at Oak Orchard Lighthouse in Point Breeze.

Could start with the now-removed Inner Belt (or was it called Inner Loop, I forget) in Rochester.

One thing I remember about the Rochester meet was seeing a car make its own off-ramp and going up a well-worn dirt path off of (I think) NY 590.

Quote from: hbelkins on December 14, 2020, 05:17:22 PM
Could start with the now-removed Inner Belt (or was it called Inner Loop, I forget) in Rochester.

Well, right, but that's in Monroe County, not Orleans. (It was the Inner Loop.)

Quote from: hbelkins on December 14, 2020, 05:17:22 PM
One thing I remember about the Rochester meet was seeing a car make its own off-ramp and going up a well-worn dirt path off of (I think) NY 590.

Now I'm curious. I can picture that happening somewhere, but I can't quite put my finger on the location. In the vicinity of the NY 104 interchange, possibly?

Quote from: hbelkins on December 14, 2020, 05:17:22 PM
Could start with the now-removed Inner Belt (or was it called Inner Loop, I forget) in Rochester.

It's a bit far for an Orleans County meet, though I've also given some thought as to what another Rochester meet might look like.  It would probably make sense to focus more on what's changed/what hasn't been featured yet... so possibly something like the Inner Loop, Pont de Rennes/High Falls, Driving Park Avenue/Lower Falls, I-490/I-390/NY 390, the Veterans Memorial Bridge (NY 104), and maybe NY 531 (could add the Spencerport lift bridge, which is in the area).  Maybe even I-390 exit 16?

Quote from: webny99 on December 14, 2020, 07:26:51 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on December 14, 2020, 05:17:22 PM
One thing I remember about the Rochester meet was seeing a car make its own off-ramp and going up a well-worn dirt path off of (I think) NY 590.

Now I'm curious. I can picture that happening somewhere, but I can't quite put my finger on the location. In the vicinity of the NY 104 interchange, possibly?

Here (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1784386,-77.5416263,3a,75y,3.16h,89.4t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sfXxdQqHdrvOMQbunwV6bDw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DfXxdQqHdrvOMQbunwV6bDw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D212.56697%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656).  It suppose it's possible the car had a flux capacitor and just came back from 1970.

Quote from: empirestate on December 13, 2020, 03:58:33 PM

Quote from: noelbotevera on December 13, 2020, 03:43:02 PM
Richmond County, NY (Staten Island) - Why would anyone go to Staten Island?

Sounds like you've not been before. :-)

For a direct answer, I have gone there a number of times for work. So there's that.

Otherwise, there's some fascinating stuff there. Sailors Snug Harbor is one of those "you'd never believe you're in NYC" places. But even just the free ferry ride and a SI Yankees game (or whoever ends up replacing them), with a unique view of the Manhattan skyline, is worth seeing. You can get great food and hear live music at Adobe Blues not far away. And we've barely penetrated the borough...

QuoteJersey City makes a better fifth borough since they have the Statue of Liberty AND Ellis Island in their city limits.

:popcorn:

Will say that my dad has been to Staten Island and I've rode the ferry before. Personally my favorite Manhattan views are from Brooklyn and Queens; I've managed to capture Lower Manhattan with an amazing sunset on the Brooklyn Bridge before. Is it the typical, touristy view? Yeah, but it's famous for a reason.

The ferry views of Manhattan...hmm, I like them, but I prefer landscape over portrait shots of Manhattan. I like the contrast between the towering skyscrapers of Downtown and Midtown to quaint apartments of Uptown. Again, my taste; no argument over "objectivity" here!

Food and music? All the good stuff is in Manhattan and Brooklyn. Queens and The Bronx, too, though that requires more searching and careful planning. (I'll die on the assertion that Tatiana's in Brighton Beach is one of the finest restaurants in NYC.)

Snug Harbor - okay, never been, but it kinda looks like the Cloisters. Except without subway access. I guess the Asian architecture is interesting, though if I want cherry blossoms I'm going to DC.

Never been a sports fan. Have watched a Penn State football game for the sole reason that my sister was in the marching band.

As for my dad's interpretation: it's a bunch of houses filled with white suburban folk. In a city known for its diversity...nah.

Quote from: noelbotevera on December 15, 2020, 12:26:39 AM
The ferry views of Manhattan...hmm, I like them, but I prefer landscape over portrait shots of Manhattan. I like the contrast between the towering skyscrapers of Downtown and Midtown to quaint apartments of Uptown. Again, my taste; no argument over "objectivity" here!

Sure, but remember–you asked why anyone would go, not why you would go. ;-)

QuoteFood and music? All the good stuff is in Manhattan and Brooklyn. Queens and The Bronx, too, though that requires more searching and careful planning.

And Staten Island. And dozens of other communities surrounding the city, and nationwide...and around the world. But I will say, you do have the perfect New Yorker-cover view of the city that suggests you'd make a good transplant. :-D

QuoteSnug Harbor - okay, never been, but it kinda looks like the Cloisters. Except without subway access. I guess the Asian architecture is interesting, though if I want cherry blossoms I'm going to DC.

And that's another point: sometimes the value in a place is found not in why you went there, but in what you found once you did. I never went to Staten Island for the cherry blossoms or Asian architecture, but that didn't mean it was worthless when I discovered it.

QuoteNever been a sports fan. Have watched a Penn State football game for the sole reason that my sister was in the marching band.

Me either, but going to Pirates games was one of my favorite things about Pittsburgh (to shift geographic gears a bit). And it was largely due to the physical setting.

QuoteAs for my dad's interpretation: it's a bunch of houses filled with white suburban folk. In a city known for its diversity...nah.

In a way, it is itself an example of that diversity for that reason. However, the fact that it's all white suburbia is pretty inaccurate; remember that even this least-populous borough would still outrank Buffalo as a standalone city, and it has a demography representative of that fact.

(For an anomaly of the type you describe, see Springfield, MO–an almost eerily non-diverse, mid-sized city, and for a reason.)

Quote from: empirestate on December 15, 2020, 10:06:19 AM

Quote from: noelbotevera on December 15, 2020, 12:26:39 AM
As for my dad's interpretation: it's a bunch of houses filled with white suburban folk. In a city known for its diversity...nah.

In a way, it is itself an example of that diversity for that reason.

Yeah, if you don't like an all-white neighborhood because you enjoy diversity, then you should have an equally low view of all-black and all-Chinese and all-Mexican neighborhoods as well.

(I actually find neighborhoods that have a high number of two different immigrant groups quite fascinating.  For example, here in Wichita, there's a stretch of N. Broadway where Vietnamese-language business signs are juxtaposed with Spanish-language business signs–for example, this sign (https://goo.gl/maps/ghYk3Goau1s5UCrV9) has both PHỞ HIỀN and LA TIENDA DEL AHORRO.)  Some neighborhoods in Chicago are real gems in that way, too.

Quote from: empirestate on December 15, 2020, 10:06:19 AM
(For an anomaly of the type you describe, see Springfield, MO–an almost eerily non-diverse, mid-sized city, and for a reason.)

A former co-worker of mine started me on referring to Springfield as "Meth Capital USA".

I'd really love to hear why I can't go swimming at Lakeside Beach State Park. Wtf kind of park calls itself a beach and you can't even swim there?

Hey, what are these people doing? in the water? at the beach?

Breaking the rules, THAT'S what they're doing!

(https://i.imgur.com/sAJ9Qp8.png)

Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2020, 02:03:06 PM
Hey, what are these people doing? in the water? at the beach?

Breaking the rules, THAT'S what they're doing!

(https://i.imgur.com/sAJ9Qp8.png)

I have no idea. Swimming isn't allowed at Lakeside Beach State Park so yeah breaking the rules is what they are doing.

I wish New York was a "swim at your own risk" state. Banning it altogether in (most) non-lifeguarded areas is a royal annoyance, even though enforcement can vary wildly.

Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2020, 01:04:58 PM

Quote from: empirestate on December 15, 2020, 10:06:19 AM

Quote from: noelbotevera on December 15, 2020, 12:26:39 AM
As for my dad's interpretation: it's a bunch of houses filled with white suburban folk. In a city known for its diversity...nah.

In a way, it is itself an example of that diversity for that reason.

Yeah, if you don't like an all-white neighborhood because you enjoy diversity, then you should have an equally low view of all-black and all-Chinese and all-Mexican neighborhoods as well.

(I actually find neighborhoods that have a high number of two different immigrant groups quite fascinating.  For example, here in Wichita, there's a stretch of N. Broadway where Vietnamese-language business signs are juxtaposed with Spanish-language business signs–for example, this sign (https://goo.gl/maps/ghYk3Goau1s5UCrV9) has both PHỞ HIỀN and LA TIENDA DEL AHORRO.)  Some neighborhoods in Chicago are real gems in that way, too.

I...what? How do you come to that conclusion?

I've been to West Virginia, which is very homogenous. That's fine. I'm not gonna boycott the entire state just because I hate ethnic diversity. I'll still visit the state and enjoy my time there, irrespective of my beliefs.

But, in the case of NYC, a lot of people know it for its ethnic diversity. Queens is renowned for it. In my eyes, I don't think people would visit Staten Island if they were expecting a lot of ethnic food or a lot of diverse neighborhoods. They could find more of that in Queens or Brooklyn. Unless Staten Island offered something extraordinary - say, Native American food, which is hard to find - then I could see a reason why people would go there.

Quote from: empirestate on December 15, 2020, 10:06:19 AM

Quote from: noelbotevera on December 15, 2020, 12:26:39 AM
The ferry views of Manhattan...hmm, I like them, but I prefer landscape over portrait shots of Manhattan. I like the contrast between the towering skyscrapers of Downtown and Midtown to quaint apartments of Uptown. Again, my taste; no argument over "objectivity" here!

Sure, but remember–you asked why anyone would go, not why you would go. ;-)

QuoteFood and music? All the good stuff is in Manhattan and Brooklyn. Queens and The Bronx, too, though that requires more searching and careful planning.

And Staten Island. And dozens of other communities surrounding the city, and nationwide...and around the world. But I will say, you do have the perfect New Yorker-cover view of the city that suggests you'd make a good transplant. :-D

QuoteSnug Harbor - okay, never been, but it kinda looks like the Cloisters. Except without subway access. I guess the Asian architecture is interesting, though if I want cherry blossoms I'm going to DC.

And that's another point: sometimes the value in a place is found not in why you went there, but in what you found once you did. I never went to Staten Island for the cherry blossoms or Asian architecture, but that didn't mean it was worthless when I discovered it.

You raise good points that I failed to explain.

Yes, any view of Manhattan is worthwhile, and I'd believe that people would ride the ferry for views of Manhattan. Whether you consider arriving at Staten Island and leaving the ferry as "visiting", or simply waiting at the docks for next boat to Manhattan, is up to interpretation.

In the case of food - true, good food requires searching. But finding good food is easier in the other boroughs. I could easily get off at some random subway stop in the other four boroughs and find a restaurant mentioned in a magazine. In Staten Island, I might need to look up an online list if I want to find good places to eat, and I'd need to drive there than use the SIR. Now, you can argue that people do this anyways when planning their trips - I say that more than likely, there's more "mentioned" restaurants in another borough alone than in Staten Island.

Last point - also very true. If I think of something I'll add it on.

And to be fair, I've done weirder roadtrips - I've gone to Punxsutawney during the middle of summer for no reason; maybe we should try exploring the island one of these days.

Quote from: noelbotevera on December 15, 2020, 02:51:47 PM

Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2020, 01:04:58 PM

Quote from: empirestate on December 15, 2020, 10:06:19 AM

Quote from: noelbotevera on December 15, 2020, 12:26:39 AM
As for my dad's interpretation: it's a bunch of houses filled with white suburban folk. In a city known for its diversity...nah.

In a way, it is itself an example of that diversity for that reason.

Yeah, if you don't like an all-white neighborhood because you enjoy diversity, then you should have an equally low view of all-black and all-Chinese and all-Mexican neighborhoods as well.

(I actually find neighborhoods that have a high number of two different immigrant groups quite fascinating.  For example, here in Wichita, there's a stretch of N. Broadway where Vietnamese-language business signs are juxtaposed with Spanish-language business signs–for example, this sign (https://goo.gl/maps/ghYk3Goau1s5UCrV9) has both PHỞ HIỀN and LA TIENDA DEL AHORRO.)  Some neighborhoods in Chicago are real gems in that way, too.

I...what? How do you come to that conclusion?

I've been to West Virginia, which is very homogenous. That's fine. I'm not gonna boycott the entire state just because I hate (love?) ethnic diversity. I'll still visit the state and enjoy my time there, irrespective of my beliefs.

But, in the case of NYC, a lot of people know it for its ethnic diversity. Queens is renowned for it. In my eyes, I don't think people would visit Staten Island if they were expecting a lot of ethnic food or a lot of diverse neighborhoods. They could find more of that in Queens or Brooklyn. Unless Staten Island offered something extraordinary - say, Native American food, which is hard to find - then I could see a reason why people would go there.

The bolded phrases are how I came to that conclusion.  I guess I read it wrong.  Sorry, bud.

At any rate, do people really flock to NYC because of its ethnic diversity?  I guess I figured they went there for the theaters, the zoo, the skyscrapers, the monuments, Central Park, the museums, Tom's Restaurant, the subway experience–and then, at mealtime, they search out something interesting and possibly ethnic nearby.  I mean, I get that there's not a whole lot of draw to Staten Island, but I don't think that really has anything to do with its ethnic makeup, just the fact that it's a suburban residential area.

(And as for ethnic food, Google Maps tells me there are quite a few Sri Lankan restaurants on Staten Island, but only one elsewhere in NYC.  I've never had Sri Lankan food.  If I were in the city, it might be worth a trip to check it out.)

kphoger, if you ever come to my area, Lowell has Cambodian food in one section of the city. Lawrence is almost 80% Hispanic, slightly more than half of those being Dominican, but it's harder to tell Dominican vs. other Hispanic just by looking at the outside of a building.

Quote from: 1 on December 15, 2020, 04:29:04 PM
kphoger, if you ever come to my area, Lowell has Cambodian food in one section of the city. Lawrence is almost 80% Hispanic, slightly more than half of those being Dominican, but it's harder to tell Dominican vs. other Hispanic just by looking at the outside of a building.

My wife and I would like to take a family vacation to that general area (Boston—Portsmouth) at some point, but there are no real plans at this time.  In that area, though, I'd first have to get pizza at a candlepin bowling alley and eat beachfront seafood before even considering somewhere for ethnic food.

Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2020, 04:16:00 PM

Quote from: noelbotevera on December 15, 2020, 02:51:47 PM

Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2020, 01:04:58 PM

Quote from: empirestate on December 15, 2020, 10:06:19 AM

Quote from: noelbotevera on December 15, 2020, 12:26:39 AM
As for my dad's interpretation: it's a bunch of houses filled with white suburban folk. In a city known for its diversity...nah.

In a way, it is itself an example of that diversity for that reason.

Yeah, if you don't like an all-white neighborhood because you enjoy diversity, then you should have an equally low view of all-black and all-Chinese and all-Mexican neighborhoods as well.

(I actually find neighborhoods that have a high number of two different immigrant groups quite fascinating.  For example, here in Wichita, there's a stretch of N. Broadway where Vietnamese-language business signs are juxtaposed with Spanish-language business signs–for example, this sign (https://goo.gl/maps/ghYk3Goau1s5UCrV9) has both PHỞ HIỀN and LA TIENDA DEL AHORRO.)  Some neighborhoods in Chicago are real gems in that way, too.

I...what? How do you come to that conclusion?

I've been to West Virginia, which is very homogenous. That's fine. I'm not gonna boycott the entire state just because I hate (love?) ethnic diversity. I'll still visit the state and enjoy my time there, irrespective of my beliefs.

But, in the case of NYC, a lot of people know it for its ethnic diversity. Queens is renowned for it. In my eyes, I don't think people would visit Staten Island if they were expecting a lot of ethnic food or a lot of diverse neighborhoods. They could find more of that in Queens or Brooklyn. Unless Staten Island offered something extraordinary - say, Native American food, which is hard to find - then I could see a reason why people would go there.

I mean, I get that there's not a whole lot of draw to Staten Island, but I don't think that really has anything to do with its ethnic makeup, just the fact that it's a suburban residential area.

Staten Island is worth considering if you want to save money by getting a hotel "outside of the city" and also don't want to pay to get in and out of Manhattan. The Staten Island ferry is a great way to get to lower Manhattan. If I go to NYC, I always try to get a hotel in Staten Island over Manhattan, Brooklyn, and Queens. Hotels there also generally have free parking.

It's a hidden gem.

Quote from: webny99 on December 15, 2020, 02:31:05 PM
I wish New York was a "swim at your own risk" state. Banning it altogether in (most) non-lifeguarded areas is a royal annoyance, even though enforcement can vary wildly.

Wouldn't it be cheaper to pay a lifeguard than someone to enforce a no-swimming rule? Pretty sure lifeguards get paid less than cops.

Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2020, 04:16:00 PM
At any rate, do people really flock to NYC because of its ethnic diversity?

I don't think anyone flocks to it because of its ethnic diversity, but because of a lot of unique experiences possible only because of that diversity.

Quote from: Flint1979 on December 15, 2020, 01:35:14 PM
Wtf kind of park calls itself a beach and you can't even swim there?

...a park with a beach in it?

Quote from: Flint1979 on December 15, 2020, 02:04:52 PM

Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2020, 02:03:06 PM
Hey, what are these people doing? in the water? at the beach?

Breaking the rules, THAT'S what they're doing!

I have no idea. Swimming isn't allowed at Lakeside Beach State Park so yeah breaking the rules is what they are doing.

I mean, who from Rochester never snuck up to Durand beach in the middle of the night and swam? Heck, that beach was never even open for swimming during normal hours...but the water didn't evaporate, and they never came and rolled up the sand, so...you had a beach.

Quote from: noelbotevera on December 15, 2020, 02:51:47 PM
But, in the case of NYC, a lot of people know it for its ethnic diversity. Queens is renowned for it. In my eyes, I don't think people would visit Staten Island if they were expecting a lot of ethnic food or a lot of diverse neighborhoods. They could find more of that in Queens or Brooklyn. Unless Staten Island offered something extraordinary - say, Native American food, which is hard to find - then I could see a reason why people would go there.
[...]
In the case of food - true, good food requires searching. But finding good food is easier in the other boroughs.

But you're comparing one borough to another here. The question is only why someone would go to Staten Island, not why they'd go there over another borough.

On the other hand, even if we are to compare, why compare this county only with the other counties inside NYC? What about the counties adjacent to it in New Jersey? Or counties elsewhere in New York, or across the U.S.?

For another aspect, you're considering the visitor's point of view; what about that of the locals? I know quite a few folks who relocated to Staten Island from elsewhere in the city or metro area, precisely because of the different lifestyle it afforded them. I certainly saw its appeal myself when I was living up in the Bronx.

QuoteYes, any view of Manhattan is worthwhile, and I'd believe that people would ride the ferry for views of Manhattan. Whether you consider arriving at Staten Island and leaving the ferry as "visiting", or simply waiting at the docks for next boat to Manhattan, is up to interpretation.

But I'm not referring to views from the ferry; I meant from the waterfront on the St. George side (at the ballpark, or thereabouts). The ferry, on the other hand, is known for having the best view of Liberty Enlightening the World (which, as we all know, is in New York County).

QuoteAnd to be fair, I've done weirder roadtrips - I've gone to Punxsutawney during the middle of summer for no reason; maybe we should try exploring the island one of these days.

And that's another great point, and probably the simplest and most pertinent answer to your question of "why would anybody go there?" To me, the whole point of this hobby is embodied in the maxim that anyplace you haven't been is worth going. Where does that road lead? Let's find out!

Quote from: The Nature Boy on December 15, 2020, 08:30:38 PM

Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2020, 04:16:00 PM

Quote from: noelbotevera on December 15, 2020, 02:51:47 PM

Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2020, 01:04:58 PM

Quote from: empirestate on December 15, 2020, 10:06:19 AM

Quote from: noelbotevera on December 15, 2020, 12:26:39 AM
As for my dad's interpretation: it's a bunch of houses filled with white suburban folk. In a city known for its diversity...nah.

In a way, it is itself an example of that diversity for that reason.

Yeah, if you don't like an all-white neighborhood because you enjoy diversity, then you should have an equally low view of all-black and all-Chinese and all-Mexican neighborhoods as well.

(I actually find neighborhoods that have a high number of two different immigrant groups quite fascinating.  For example, here in Wichita, there's a stretch of N. Broadway where Vietnamese-language business signs are juxtaposed with Spanish-language business signs–for example, this sign (https://goo.gl/maps/ghYk3Goau1s5UCrV9) has both PHỞ HIỀN and LA TIENDA DEL AHORRO.)  Some neighborhoods in Chicago are real gems in that way, too.

I...what? How do you come to that conclusion?

I've been to West Virginia, which is very homogenous. That's fine. I'm not gonna boycott the entire state just because I hate (love?) ethnic diversity. I'll still visit the state and enjoy my time there, irrespective of my beliefs.

But, in the case of NYC, a lot of people know it for its ethnic diversity. Queens is renowned for it. In my eyes, I don't think people would visit Staten Island if they were expecting a lot of ethnic food or a lot of diverse neighborhoods. They could find more of that in Queens or Brooklyn. Unless Staten Island offered something extraordinary - say, Native American food, which is hard to find - then I could see a reason why people would go there.

I mean, I get that there's not a whole lot of draw to Staten Island, but I don't think that really has anything to do with its ethnic makeup, just the fact that it's a suburban residential area.

Staten Island is worth considering if you want to save money by getting a hotel "outside of the city" and also don't want to pay to get in and out of Manhattan. The Staten Island ferry is a great way to get to lower Manhattan. If I go to NYC, I always try to get a hotel in Staten Island over Manhattan, Brooklyn, and Queens. Hotels there also generally have free parking.

It's a hidden gem.

I stayed in New York City for a few nights about 8 years ago. I stayed in Queens there was a newer Days Inn at the corner of Van Dam and Queens Blvd in Long Island City. It only cost $119 a night and was about two blocks from the 33rd-Rawson station on the 7 train. It was pretty cheap I thought for NYC prices and was a new building at the time.

Quote from: empirestate on December 16, 2020, 01:56:07 AM

Quote from: Flint1979 on December 15, 2020, 01:35:14 PM
Wtf kind of park calls itself a beach and you can't even swim there?

...a park with a beach in it?

Quote from: Flint1979 on December 15, 2020, 02:04:52 PM

Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2020, 02:03:06 PM
Hey, what are these people doing? in the water? at the beach?

Breaking the rules, THAT'S what they're doing!

I have no idea. Swimming isn't allowed at Lakeside Beach State Park so yeah breaking the rules is what they are doing.

I mean, who from Rochester never snuck up to Durand beach in the middle of the night and swam? Heck, that beach was never even open for swimming during normal hours...but the water didn't evaporate, and they never came and rolled up the sand, so...you had a beach.

Quote from: noelbotevera on December 15, 2020, 02:51:47 PM
But, in the case of NYC, a lot of people know it for its ethnic diversity. Queens is renowned for it. In my eyes, I don't think people would visit Staten Island if they were expecting a lot of ethnic food or a lot of diverse neighborhoods. They could find more of that in Queens or Brooklyn. Unless Staten Island offered something extraordinary - say, Native American food, which is hard to find - then I could see a reason why people would go there.
[...]
In the case of food - true, good food requires searching. But finding good food is easier in the other boroughs.

But you're comparing one borough to another here. The question is only why someone would go to Staten Island, not why they'd go there over another borough.

On the other hand, even if we are to compare, why compare this county only with the other counties inside NYC? What about the counties adjacent to it in New Jersey? Or counties elsewhere in New York, or across the U.S.?

For another aspect, you're considering the visitor's point of view; what about that of the locals? I know quite a few folks who relocated to Staten Island from elsewhere in the city or metro area, precisely because of the different lifestyle it afforded them. I certainly saw its appeal myself when I was living up in the Bronx.

QuoteYes, any view of Manhattan is worthwhile, and I'd believe that people would ride the ferry for views of Manhattan. Whether you consider arriving at Staten Island and leaving the ferry as "visiting", or simply waiting at the docks for next boat to Manhattan, is up to interpretation.

But I'm not referring to views from the ferry; I meant from the waterfront on the St. George side (at the ballpark, or thereabouts). The ferry, on the other hand, is known for having the best view of Liberty Enlightening the World (which, as we all know, is in New York County).

QuoteAnd to be fair, I've done weirder roadtrips - I've gone to Punxsutawney during the middle of summer for no reason; maybe we should try exploring the island one of these days.

And that's another great point, and probably the simplest and most pertinent answer to your question of "why would anybody go there?" To me, the whole point of this hobby is embodied in the maxim that anyplace you haven't been is worth going. Where does that road lead? Let's find out!

Durand Beach is in Monroe County. I was talking about the fact that there is nowhere to swim on the beach anywhere in Orleans County.

Quote from: Flint1979 on December 16, 2020, 06:04:55 AM

Quote from: empirestate on December 16, 2020, 01:56:07 AM
I mean, who from Rochester never snuck up to Durand beach in the middle of the night and swam? Heck, that beach was never even open for swimming during normal hours...but the water didn't evaporate, and they never came and rolled up the sand, so...you had a beach.

Durand Beach is in Monroe County. I was talking about the fact that there is nowhere to swim on the beach anywhere in Orleans County.

(For the sake of all that is good and decent in the world, please trim the quote down to what you're actually replying to.)

Durand Beach has lifeguards on duty, but not at night.  (And, supposedly, not always during the day?)  I think his point is merely that those people swimming at Lakeside Beach are no more "rulebreakers" than people who go swimming at Durand Beach outside of swimming hours.

If New York were a "swim at your own risk" (as webny99 had suggested) and Lakeside Beach State Park removed its 'no swimming' rule, then there would in fact be somewhere to swim on the beach in Orleans County.

But that's all kind of beside the point–because there isn't 'nowhere to swim on the beach anywhere in Orleans County'.

Go to Green Harbor Campground & Marina, whose website states...

Quote from: https://www.greenharborcampground.com/page2
Our 700 feet of sandy beach along the shore of Lake Ontario provides you with a relaxing break from the hectic chores of everyday life.

...and features the picture below on the site's front page...



...and whose user-submitted images on Google Maps include those below.

Quote from: empirestate on December 16, 2020, 01:56:07 AM

Quote from: Flint1979 on December 15, 2020, 02:04:52 PM

Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2020, 02:03:06 PM
Hey, what are these people doing? in the water? at the beach?

Breaking the rules, THAT'S what they're doing!

I have no idea. Swimming isn't allowed at Lakeside Beach State Park so yeah breaking the rules is what they are doing.

I mean, who from Rochester never snuck up to Durand beach in the middle of the night and swam? Heck, that beach was never even open for swimming during normal hours...but the water didn't evaporate, and they never came and rolled up the sand, so...you had a beach.

Ha! I can't say I've done it in the middle of the night, but that is a great example of the weirdness of NY's approach to beaches: swimming is technically not allowed at the most popular beach in the Rochester area! Of course, there's zero enforcement outside of the far western section... and it would be total chaos if there was. But I don't know what gives, because I've been kicked out of the non-lifegaurded area at Hamlin Beach, for example.

As for Lakeside Beach, it's an open question whether the No Swimming rule is enforced or not. I don't know. And I don't suspect many people have bothered to find out when Hamlin is just a few miles down the road.

Quote from: kphoger on December 16, 2020, 10:05:34 AM
But that's all kind of beside the point–because there isn't 'nowhere to swim on the beach anywhere in Orleans County'.

Go to Green Harbor Campground & Marina ...

I don't believe that's open to the general non-camping public.

Quote from: kphoger on December 16, 2020, 10:05:34 AM

Quote from: Flint1979 on December 16, 2020, 06:04:55 AM

Quote from: empirestate on December 16, 2020, 01:56:07 AM
I mean, who from Rochester never snuck up to Durand beach in the middle of the night and swam? Heck, that beach was never even open for swimming during normal hours...but the water didn't evaporate, and they never came and rolled up the sand, so...you had a beach.

Durand Beach is in Monroe County. I was talking about the fact that there is nowhere to swim on the beach anywhere in Orleans County.

(For the sake of all that is good and decent in the world, please trim the quote down to what you're actually replying to.)

Durand Beach has lifeguards on duty, but not at night.  (And, supposedly, not always during the day?)  I think his point is merely that those people swimming at Lakeside Beach are no more "rulebreakers" than people who go swimming at Durand Beach outside of swimming hours.

If New York were a "swim at your own risk" (as webny99 had suggested) and Lakeside Beach State Park removed its 'no swimming' rule, then there would in fact be somewhere to swim on the beach in Orleans County.

But that's all kind of beside the point–because there isn't 'nowhere to swim on the beach anywhere in Orleans County'.

Go to Green Harbor Campground & Marina, whose website states...

Quote from: https://www.greenharborcampground.com/page2
Our 700 feet of sandy beach along the shore of Lake Ontario provides you with a relaxing break from the hectic chores of everyday life.

...and features the picture below on the site's front page...



...and whose user-submitted images on Google Maps include those below.

That's not a bad beach

I basically said I couldn't find a beach anywhere in Orleans County not that one doesn't exist. But I still can't see much of the beach at Lakeside Beach State Park. Lake Ontario is a Great Lake and I am probably the least familiar with it compared to the other Great Lakes. I know the beaches around Michigan on the Great Lakes have sand all over the place. I don't see that on Lake Ontario unless I'm missing something.

The Lake Huron side here doesn't have the best of beaches I think Lake Michigan has the best beaches out of the Great Lakes and I'm pretty familiar with those two lakes. So where on Lake Ontario are the best beaches? I might have to ask the same question for Lake Erie. Gitche Gumee is too cold to swim in but it can be done.

Quote from: webny99 on December 16, 2020, 12:55:33 PM

Quote from: kphoger on December 16, 2020, 10:05:34 AM
But that's all kind of beside the point–because there isn't 'nowhere to swim on the beach anywhere in Orleans County'.

Go to Green Harbor Campground & Marina ...

I don't believe that's open to the general non-camping public.

Well, you have to pay a vehicle fee to get into Lakeside Beach State Park, too.  But, besides that...

Quote from: Touro Law Review (of New York's Public Trust Doctrine), Vol. 34 {2018}, No. 4, Art. 16
Although New York is home to a substantial number of beautiful beaches and waterfront homes, there has been limited litigation regarding the application of the public trust doctrine to beach access. Accordingly, the boundary between the private landowner's rights and the public's rights is unclear. Nevertheless, the extremely modest case law in this area suggests that the private property owner has the sole right to all real estate that is landward of the high water mark, none of which the public may lawfully use, while the public only has the right to access the lands seaward of the mean high water mark. This approach could result in criminal charges against individuals who cross privately owned dry sand beaches to reach the foreshore.

So it would technically, theoretically, supposedly be legal for non-guests to access that beach, so long as they stay below the high water mark.

---

Quote from: Flint1979 on December 16, 2020, 01:35:26 PM
I still can't see much of the beach at Lakeside Beach State Park.

The beach is here.  (How much you wanna bet those little signs say "No Swimming"?)  Here's another view.

Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2020, 01:04:58 PM

Quote from: empirestate on December 15, 2020, 10:06:19 AM

Quote from: noelbotevera on December 15, 2020, 12:26:39 AM
As for my dad's interpretation: it's a bunch of houses filled with white suburban folk. In a city known for its diversity...nah.

In a way, it is itself an example of that diversity for that reason.

Yeah, if you don't like an all-white neighborhood because you enjoy diversity, then you should have an equally low view of all-black and all-Chinese and all-Mexican neighborhoods as well.

You do realize that minorities get cloistered together not by choice but out of necessity. :poke: Redlining, housing costs, zoning, and citizen councils tend to keep white being white. :banghead:  On the other hand, ethnic neighborhoods are looked upon as exotic, other, and different by those bored with plastic subdivisions.

Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on December 16, 2020, 02:16:00 PM
You do realize that minorities get cloistered together not by choice but out of necessity. :poke: Redlining, housing costs, zoning, and citizen councils tend to keep white being white. :banghead:  On the other hand, ethnic neighborhoods are looked upon as exotic, other, and different by those bored with plastic subdivisions.

If a Chinese immigrant moves to Chicago, then I suspect he or she would be more likely to move to Chinatown than any other neighborhood–not out of necessity but by choice.  And plenty of ethnic neighborhoods exist because immigrant populations stuck together.  After all, minority neighborhoods aren't always "generic minority", but often tend toward one particular ethnic group or another.  The factors you state help explain why Mexicans and West Africans and Haitians often can't live in certain neighborhoods, but they don't explain why each of those groups often settles in a different neighborhood from the others.

My block is more predominantly white than, say, either block to the north or south of me.  That has to do with housing costs, which you mentioned, but it has nothing to do with any of the other factors.  The same can be said of larger areas too.  There are fewer Middle Eastern people in my neighborhood than some nearby, but that's because my neighborhood doesn't have large, affordable apartment complexes.  And some neighborhoods with large, affordable apartment complexes have fewer Middle Eastern people than others;  why? if not that new residents prefer to live where they can "fit in" and develop a social network of people like themselves, where there are grocery stores selling the food items they're used to, where people who look and talk like them are generally seen as more "normal".

And yes, ethnic neighborhoods are definitely seen as "exotic ... those bored with plastic subdivisions".  Heck, I'm not particularly bored by those, but I still get a sense of the exotic in heavily ethnic neighborhoods.

Quote from: kphoger on December 16, 2020, 02:36:51 PM

Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on December 16, 2020, 02:16:00 PM
You do realize that minorities get cloistered together not by choice but out of necessity. :poke: Redlining, housing costs, zoning, and citizen councils tend to keep white being white. :banghead:  On the other hand, ethnic neighborhoods are looked upon as exotic, other, and different by those bored with plastic subdivisions.

If a Chinese immigrant moves to Chicago, then I suspect he or she would be more likely to move to Chinatown than any other neighborhood–not out of necessity but by choice. 

Do you understand the difference between necessity and choice?

Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on December 16, 2020, 02:38:32 PM
Do you understand the difference between necessity and choice?

Yes.  It means, all things being equal, the person still chooses to live in a specific neighborhood.

So, with "Redlining, housing costs, zoning, and citizen councils" being equivalent, a Chinese immigrant should–according to you–be just as likely to move into an apartment in Chicago Lawn as into one in Chinatown.  I'm saying that simply isn't the case.

Lawrence has two main immigrant groups, although I don't know if it's some neighborhoods of each or thoroughly mixed. The top three groups, including non-Hispanic white, are bolded.

I can confirm that more Spanish is spoken downtown than on the edge; it's about 60/40 in favor of Spanish downtown, maybe 70/30 English (rough guess) at the Lawrence/Methuen city line, and 85/15 (that's one in seven, which is still quite far from zero) in favor of English at the Stop & Shop where I worked in Methuen 1.5 miles from the city line. Of course, there are some Hispanics in Lawrence for which English is their primary language. I-495 exit 42 is a sharp dividing line despite both sides being in the city limits.

Quote from: Wikipedia, Lawrence MA articleThe racial makeup of the city in 2016 was 16.6% non-Hispanic white, 7.8% Black or African American, 2.8% Asian (1.2% Cambodian, 0.7% Vietnamese, 0.3% Pakistani, 0.2% Indian, 0.2% Chinese, 0.1% Korean), 0.4% American Indian or Alaskan Native, 0.0% Pacific Islander, 39.3% some other race, 2.7% two or more races, and 77.1% of the population is Hispanic or Latino (of any race) (47.0% Dominican, 21.7% Puerto Rican, 3.0% Guatemalan, 0.7% Salvadoran, 0.7% Spanish, 0.6% Cuban, 0.5% Ecuadorian, 0.5% Mexican, 0.2% Honduran, 0.2% Colombian, 0.1% Venezuelan, 0.1% Nicaraguan, 0.1% Peruvian).

Quote from: Flint1979 on December 16, 2020, 01:35:26 PM
So where on Lake Ontario are the best beaches? I might have to ask the same question for Lake Erie. Gitche Gumee is too cold to swim in but it can be done.

The east shore has some great beaches with ocean-like waves at times. My list for top five overall would be (county name in parentheses):

1. Southwick (Jefferson)
2. Sandy Island (Oswego)
3. Selkirk Shores (Oswego)*
4. Fair Haven (Cayuga)
5. Hamlin (Monroe)

As for a great lakeshore park with no official beach, it's Chimney Bluffs (in Wayne County). The scenery is Utah-esque (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.2886062,-76.9092291,3a,75y,6.29h,77.79t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sAF1QipMQJir4PG-g6E_XhWw7sXpnjWnthOY7tNxxIIaK!2e10!3e11!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipMQJir4PG-g6E_XhWw7sXpnjWnthOY7tNxxIIaK%3Dw203-h100-k-no-pi-0-ya337.36722-ro-0-fo100!7i9728!8i4098!5m1!1e1) at points, and with the lake in the background. I wouldn't want to swim there because it's so rocky, but people do and have never been kicked out to my knowledge. As for Lake Erie, the Ontario (Canada) side has some good ones, but in the US it's Presque Isle (in Erie County, PA) hands down.

---

*Swimming at this one is questionable... been there when it's been open and closed

Quote from: webny99 on December 16, 2020, 03:07:23 PM
As for Lake Erie, the Ontario (Canada) side has some good ones, ...

That's the only place I've swum in Lake Erie, in fact.  Rondeau Provincial Park, Ontario.  I went swimming a couple of times at the regular beach just east of the campground, which seemed like a pretty popular place.  I also briefly skinny-dipped in the lake just east of the visitor's center after dark one night, while the couple I was camping with was taking a stroll down the beach.

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 15, 2020, 09:22:57 PM

Quote from: webny99 on December 15, 2020, 02:31:05 PM
I wish New York was a "swim at your own risk" state. Banning it altogether in (most) non-lifeguarded areas is a royal annoyance, even though enforcement can vary wildly.

Wouldn't it be cheaper to pay a lifeguard than someone to enforce a no-swimming rule? Pretty sure lifeguards get paid less than cops.

Whoops, missed this until now...

At a place like Lakeside Beach, I suspect they don't pay either one. With Hamlin Beach (which has 3 official swimming areas) nearby, they figure it's not going to be a big draw regardless, so they stick up some "No Swimming" signs instead.

How exactly would someone enforce a no-swimming rule without swimming (and thus breaking the rule) themselves? I doubt they're going to bring a helicopter out and forcibly pull you out of the water...

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 16, 2020, 04:32:37 PM
How exactly would someone enforce a no-swimming rule without swimming (and thus breaking the rule) themselves? I doubt they're going to bring a helicopter out and forcibly pull you out of the water...

One might assume the swimmer would eventually get out of the water...  I suppose also that, if a police officer directs you to get out of the water, he or she might enjoy waiting around awhile if you refuse.

Quote from: kphoger on December 16, 2020, 04:47:21 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 16, 2020, 04:32:37 PM
How exactly would someone enforce a no-swimming rule without swimming (and thus breaking the rule) themselves? I doubt they're going to bring a helicopter out and forcibly pull you out of the water...

One might assume the swimmer would eventually get out of the water...  I suppose also that, if a police officer directs you to get out of the water, he or she might enjoy waiting around awhile if you refuse.

Yeah, when it's "enforced", it's usually a park ranger driving a Ranger or other all-terrain vehicle along the shore and yelling at everyone in the water to get out. There was one year (2017?) where it happened a bunch, but across a half-dozen or so visits this year, there was never so much as a park ranger in sight.

Quote from: Flint1979 on December 16, 2020, 06:04:55 AM

Quote from: empirestate on December 16, 2020, 01:56:07 AM
I mean, who from Rochester never snuck up to Durand beach in the middle of the night and swam? Heck, that beach was never even open for swimming during normal hours...but the water didn't evaporate, and they never came and rolled up the sand, so...you had a beach.

Durand Beach is in Monroe County. I was talking about the fact that there is nowhere to swim on the beach anywhere in Orleans County.

Yes, and yet there remains a beach there. Doesn't matter what county it's in–a beach is still a beach, regardless of whether people may, or actually do, swim from them.

Quote from: kphoger on December 16, 2020, 10:05:34 AM
I think his point is merely that those people swimming at Lakeside Beach are no more "rulebreakers" than people who go swimming at Durand Beach outside of swimming hours.

My point is just that it's a beach, even though you may not swim there. This is in answer to the question of what kind of park would be named for a beach, if swimming isn't permitted.

Quote from: Flint1979 on December 16, 2020, 01:35:26 PM
I basically said I couldn't find a beach anywhere in Orleans County not that one doesn't exist. But I still can't see much of the beach at Lakeside Beach State Park.

It is not much of a beach, that's for sure. And that's not out of the ordinary for the Great Lakes; as I mentioned before, big recreational beaches with lots of sand don't really happen on them. (Presque Isle would be a big notable exception.)

But more to the point (which is at risk of becoming belabored) being "much" of anything isn't really a characteristic of a beach in the first place. All you need is sand, pebbles, shells, or some other crumbled-up substance, and an interface with some water.

Quote from: kphoger on December 16, 2020, 02:03:49 PM
Well, you have to pay a vehicle fee to get into Lakeside Beach State Park, too.  But, besides that...

Well, only to get your vehicle in. If you can get there some other way, you have the right to free access at all state parks. Doesn't help you much at Lakeside Beach, but the distinction is hugely evident at a place like Niagara Reservation.

Quote

Quote from: Touro Law Review (of New York's Public Trust Doctrine), Vol. 34 {2018}, No. 4, Art. 16
Although New York is home to a substantial number of beautiful beaches and waterfront homes, there has been limited litigation regarding the application of the public trust doctrine to beach access. Accordingly, the boundary between the private landowner's rights and the public's rights is unclear. Nevertheless, the extremely modest case law in this area suggests that the private property owner has the sole right to all real estate that is landward of the high water mark, none of which the public may lawfully use, while the public only has the right to access the lands seaward of the mean high water mark. This approach could result in criminal charges against individuals who cross privately owned dry sand beaches to reach the foreshore.

So it would technically, theoretically, supposedly be legal for non-guests to access that beach, so long as they stay below the high water mark.

The Great Lakes don't really have tidal datums like that; although there is some tidal effect, the lake elevation is more a product of earthbound hydrologic forces (rainfall and snowmelt, for example). Some kind of similar doctrine probably applies to the lakes, but the horizontal difference between lake levels is usually pretty negligible.

It looks like you are answering for Lake Ontario and Lake Ontario only because Lake Michigan indeed has several beaches and sand dunes all the way along the eastern shore pretty much. You have Warren Dunes State Park, Silver Lake State Park, Holland State Park, Tunnel Park in Holland, Silver Beach in St. Joseph, Van Buren State Park, Oval Beach in Saugatuck, Saugatuck Dunes State Park, Grand Haven State Park, Pere Marquette Park in Muskegon, Muskegon State Park, Duck Lake State Park, Ludington State Park, Mears State Park, Fifth Avenue Beach in Manistee, Orchard Beach State Park, Empire Beach in Empire, Sleeping Bear Sand Dunes and several others that have sandy beaches. I just named 18 beaches on Lake Michigan off the top of my head in this post.

Quote from: empirestate on December 16, 2020, 11:30:26 PM

Quote from: kphoger on December 16, 2020, 10:05:34 AM
I think his point is merely that those people swimming at Lakeside Beach are no more "rulebreakers" than people who go swimming at Durand Beach outside of swimming hours.

My point is just that it's a beach, even though you may not swim there. This is in answer to the question of what kind of park would be named for a beach, if swimming isn't permitted.

Normally if a park has "beach" in its name, one's expectation would be that you could go swimming there. Since you can't, calling it "Lakeside State Park" would be sufficient.

As for the point about rulebreakers, at Durand Beach it's not swimming hours so much as a swimming area. The only lifegaurded area is at the far western end, and for most people, the hours at which it's lifeguarded are irrelevant, because they're going to avoid that part anyways and just pick a spot further east to enjoy the beach.

Quote from: empirestate on December 16, 2020, 11:30:26 PM

Quote

Quote from: Touro Law Review (of New York's Public Trust Doctrine), Vol. 34 {2018}, No. 4, Art. 16
Although New York is home to a substantial number of beautiful beaches and waterfront homes, there has been limited litigation regarding the application of the public trust doctrine to beach access. Accordingly, the boundary between the private landowner's rights and the public's rights is unclear. Nevertheless, the extremely modest case law in this area suggests that the private property owner has the sole right to all real estate that is landward of the high water mark, none of which the public may lawfully use, while the public only has the right to access the lands seaward of the mean high water mark. This approach could result in criminal charges against individuals who cross privately owned dry sand beaches to reach the foreshore.

So it would technically, theoretically, supposedly be legal for non-guests to access that beach, so long as they stay below the high water mark.

The Great Lakes don't really have tidal datums like that; although there is some tidal effect, the lake elevation is more a product of earthbound hydrologic forces (rainfall and snowmelt, for example). Some kind of similar doctrine probably applies to the lakes, but the horizontal difference between lake levels is usually pretty negligible.

I was considering how to address that, but you've done so more accurately and sufficiently than I would have.  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Flint1979 on December 17, 2020, 06:04:50 AM
It looks like you are answering for Lake Ontario and Lake Ontario only because Lake Michigan indeed has several beaches and sand dunes all the way along the eastern shore pretty much. You have Warren Dunes State Park, Silver Lake State Park, Holland State Park, Tunnel Park in Holland, Silver Beach in St. Joseph, Van Buren State Park, Oval Beach in Saugatuck, Saugatuck Dunes State Park, Grand Haven State Park, Pere Marquette Park in Muskegon, Muskegon State Park, Duck Lake State Park, Ludington State Park, Mears State Park, Fifth Avenue Beach in Manistee, Orchard Beach State Park, Empire Beach in Empire, Sleeping Bear Sand Dunes and several others that have sandy beaches. I just named 18 beaches on Lake Michigan off the top of my head in this post.

And, unless I missed it somewhere, you left out Indiana Dunes National Park (though I suppose you probably were considering that the southern shore instead of the eastern shore).  Go up to the northern shore, and I've been swimming within the city limits of Manistique.

Quote from: webny99 on December 17, 2020, 09:15:28 AM

Quote from: empirestate on December 16, 2020, 11:30:26 PM
My point is just that it's a beach, even though you may not swim there. This is in answer to the question of what kind of park would be named for a beach, if swimming isn't permitted.

Normally if a park has "beach" in its name, one's expectation would be that you could go swimming there. Since you can't, calling it "Lakeside State Park" would be sufficient.

Perhaps you should change your expectations to match reality.   :)

For what it's worth, check out these other no-swimming beaches:
Monastery Beach, California (https://www.californiabeaches.com/beach/monastery-beach/#:~:text=Monastery%20Beach%20gets%20its%20name,is%20not%20a%20swimming%20beach.)
Hanakāpīʻai Beach, Hawaii (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanakapiai_Beach)
Sylvan Beach, New York (https://www.syracuse.com/news/2018/06/swimming_banned_at_sylvan_beach_no_more_swim_at_own_risk.html) (later re-opened)

Quote from: kphoger on December 17, 2020, 10:02:38 AM

Quote from: webny99 on December 17, 2020, 09:15:28 AM

Quote from: empirestate on December 16, 2020, 11:30:26 PM
My point is just that it's a beach, even though you may not swim there. This is in answer to the question of what kind of park would be named for a beach, if swimming isn't permitted.

Normally if a park has "beach" in its name, one's expectation would be that you could go swimming there. Since you can't, calling it "Lakeside State Park" would be sufficient.

Perhaps you should change your expectations to match reality.   :)

For what it's worth, check out these other no-swimming beaches:
Monastery Beach, California (https://www.californiabeaches.com/beach/monastery-beach/#:~:text=Monastery%20Beach%20gets%20its%20name,is%20not%20a%20swimming%20beach.)
Hanakāpīʻai Beach, Hawaii (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanakapiai_Beach)
Sylvan Beach, New York (https://www.syracuse.com/news/2018/06/swimming_banned_at_sylvan_beach_no_more_swim_at_own_risk.html) (later re-opened)

Those are just named beaches. They aren't parks that have "beach" in their name.
Naming a beach where swimming isn't allowed is one thing. Naming a state park after a beach where swimming isn't allowed is another.

Quote from: Flint1979 on December 17, 2020, 06:04:50 AM
It looks like you are answering for Lake Ontario and Lake Ontario only because Lake Michigan indeed has several beaches and sand dunes all the way along the eastern shore pretty much.

Not Lake Ontario only, but Ontario is a stronger example of my point than Lake Michigan is because of its east-west orientation. (The same types of beaches can be found at the east end of Ontario as well, but with Ontario that's the short end.)

Of course, this idea isn't limited to the Great Lakes, either; there are many regions along the world's ocean shorelines where large beaches aren't naturally common, either. While we often tend to associate the presence of a large waterbody with that of a beach, it isn't always so.

Quote from: webny99 on December 17, 2020, 09:15:28 AM
Normally if a park has "beach" in its name, one's expectation would be that you could go swimming there. Since you can't, calling it "Lakeside State Park" would be sufficient.

Quite right, people do tend to associate beaches with swimming, because they make it very physically conducive to do so (as opposed to, say, a steep fjord or rocky cliffs). However, the presence or absence of a government regulation prohibiting swimming isn't really connoted by the word "beach", just as the after-hours rulebreakers at Durand aren't any less at a beach than those behaving nicely at Hamlin.

So to the point of what kind of park would call itself a beach if you can't swim there, I'd say, well, the kind with a beach. If there's a misleading word in the name, I'd actually go with "park" rather than "beach", since a park suggests that certain recreational resources are being set aside expressly for the use of the public. So, what kind of beach calls itself a park and you can't even swim there?

QuoteAs for the point about rulebreakers, at Durand Beach it's not swimming hours so much as a swimming area. The only lifegaurded area is at the far western end, and for most people, the hours at which it's lifeguarded are irrelevant, because they're going to avoid that part anyways and just pick a spot further east to enjoy the beach.

My point with Durand is simply that there are rules at all, as there are at Lakeside Beach. If there's an area of the beach where you can't swim, it's still a beach. If there's a time of day when you can't swim, it's still a beach. But in this case, the word "beach" doesn't appear in the name of the park that controls it; however, members of the public would still say things like "hey, let's go hang out on the beach tonight" (at least in our younger years we would). ;-)

Quote from: webny99 on December 17, 2020, 10:22:23 AM
Those are just named beaches. They aren't parks that have "beach" in their name.
Naming a beach where swimming isn't allowed is one thing. Naming a state park after a beach where swimming isn't allowed is another.

Right. As I say above, the discrepancy to me would be why it's a park, not whether it's a beach. If the existence of a government regulation is the determining factor, then it's the "park" aspect (a creation of the government) rather than the "beach" aspect (a creation of nature) that's in question.

(Not super important, by the way–the amount of discussion so far belies the triviality of the point I'm making. But that happens a lot around here, and is all part of the fun.) :cool:

By the way...  if there does end up being an Orleans County roadmeet...  and I do end up going...  then I'm definitely going to camp at the marina...  just so I can swim at a beach in Orleans County.

I also might swim at the beach in the state park.  Just because.

Quote from: empirestate on December 17, 2020, 10:39:24 AM

Quote from: Flint1979 on December 17, 2020, 06:04:50 AM
It looks like you are answering for Lake Ontario and Lake Ontario only because Lake Michigan indeed has several beaches and sand dunes all the way along the eastern shore pretty much.

Not Lake Ontario only, but Ontario is a stronger example of my point than Lake Michigan is because of its east-west orientation. (The same types of beaches can be found at the east end of Ontario as well, but with Ontario that's the short end.)

Indeed, and it's worth pointing out that four of the five quality Lake Ontario beaches I named are on the eastern end of the lake.

Quote from: empirestate on December 17, 2020, 10:39:24 AM
My point with Durand is simply that there are rules at all, as there are at Lakeside Beach.

Durand? Rules? Wait... what?  ;-)

Quote from: empirestate on December 17, 2020, 10:39:24 AM
So to the point of what kind of park would call itself a beach if you can't swim there, I'd say, well, the kind with a beach. If there's a misleading word in the name, I'd actually go with "park" rather than "beach", since a park suggests that certain recreational resources are being set aside expressly for the use of the public. So, what kind of beach calls itself a park and you can't even swim there?
...
Right. As I say above, the discrepancy to me would be why it's a park, not whether it's a beach. If the existence of a government regulation is the determining factor, then it's the "park" aspect (a creation of the government) rather than the "beach" aspect (a creation of nature) that's in question.

I'm not disputing that it is a beach. It's not a very nice one, but it does meet the most basic criteria. As for why it's a park in the first place, that's an excellent question. A place to picnic with views of the lake, I suppose, but a county park would work just fine for that purpose, as it does in Wayne County (https://www.google.com/maps/place/B.+Forman+Park/@43.2810218,-77.1742082,15.21z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89d7273f31d66cf9:0x212e80f890856939!8m2!3d43.2814681!4d-77.1693662!5m1!1e1). The state has essentially done three things here:

(1) created a park on the lakeshore, with a beach
(2) disallowed swimming at said beach
(3) included the word "beach" in the common name of the place

I'm fine with any combination of two of those things, but not all three. (I worded #3 very carefully to ensure I'm OK with #2 and #3 at the exclusion of #1.)

---

Quote from: empirestate on December 17, 2020, 10:39:24 AM
(Not super important, by the way–the amount of discussion so far belies the triviality of the point I'm making. But that happens a lot around here, and is all part of the fun.) :cool:

Of course! :cool:

Quote from: webny99 on December 17, 2020, 11:46:30 AM
As for why it's a park in the first place, that's an excellent question. A place to picnic with views of the lake, I suppose, but a county park would work just fine for that purpose ...

It seems rather arbitrary to think it's OK for a county park but not a state park.

Quote from: kphoger on December 17, 2020, 11:52:47 AM

Quote from: webny99 on December 17, 2020, 11:46:30 AM
As for why it's a park in the first place, that's an excellent question. A place to picnic with views of the lake, I suppose, but a county park would work just fine for that purpose ...

It seems rather arbitrary to think it's OK for a county park but not a state park.

State Parks are normally reserved for the major attractions, and in this case, since swimming is disallowed, there's nothing setting this one apart from any generic local, town, or county park (which are usually free). What additional value the state sees there that they decided was worth investing in and charging $7 for, I don't know.

And the county park I referred to is called "B Forman Park" or colloquially "Pultneyville Park"... no mention of a beach.

Shall I assume you're likewise opposed to the New York state parks below, which also do not allow swimming?

Amsterdam Beach State Park
Bristol Beach State Park
Haverstraw Beach State Park
Nyack Beach State Park

Quote from: kphoger on December 17, 2020, 12:36:36 PM
Shall I assume you're likewise opposed to the New York state parks below, which also do not allow swimming?

Amsterdam Beach State Park
Bristol Beach State Park
Haverstraw Beach State Park
Nyack Beach State Park

Bristol Beach is not a State Park, and from what I can tell, all of the other three are free to use, which counters the higher expectations that are normally associated with State Parks.

But with that aside, my overall position is the same as it is for Lakeside Beach:
(a) change the name, (b) allow swimming, and/or (c) make it a county or local park.

Beaver Island State Park illustrates a much better handling of the expectations game: find a better name and still allow swimming. :)

Quote from: webny99 on December 17, 2020, 11:46:30 AM

Quote from: empirestate on December 17, 2020, 10:39:24 AM
Not Lake Ontario only, but Ontario is a stronger example of my point than Lake Michigan is because of its east-west orientation. (The same types of beaches can be found at the east end of Ontario as well, but with Ontario that's the short end.)

Indeed, and it's worth pointing out that four of the five quality Lake Ontario beaches I named are on the eastern end of the lake.

Yes, indeed. It seems to be location-specific; I'm not sure what the exact geological forces are, but I'm assuming a combination of prevailing wind/weather patterns, and the lay of the former ice sheets that created the lakes in the first place.

So, whatever those forces are, they're not really prevalent along the lake's southern shore. That probably explains why Lakeside Beach is relatively unimpressive, and the larger beaches at Hamlin and Charlotte had to be artificially enhanced (by a series of groins at Hamlin, and by the Charlotte Pier at Ontario Beach). Durand is probably an exception; I think the natural bight there favors beach creation more than the adjoining stretches. Another nearby example is Oklahoma Beach, a private beach on the sandbar enclosing Irondequoit Bay. I think that's a natural deposition of material, but the former railroad embankment may have contributed to the prominence of the bar (and the Durand beach, for that matter).

QuoteI'm not disputing that it is a beach. It's not a very nice one, but it does meet the most basic criteria.

Yeah, the question about whether it's a beach stems from Flint's comment, not one of yours.

QuoteAs for why it's a park in the first place, that's an excellent question. A place to picnic with views of the lake, I suppose, but a county park would work just fine for that purpose, as it does in Wayne County (https://www.google.com/maps/place/B.+Forman+Park/@43.2810218,-77.1742082,15.21z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89d7273f31d66cf9:0x212e80f890856939!8m2!3d43.2814681!4d-77.1693662!5m1!1e1). The state has essentially done three things here:

(1) created a park on the lakeshore, with a beach
(2) disallowed swimming at said beach
(3) included the word "beach" in the common name of the place

I'm fine with any combination of two of those things, but not all three. (I worded #3 very carefully to ensure I'm OK with #2 and #3 at the exclusion of #1.)

Sure, I don't wonder at the disappointment or curiosity around why a beach was preserved in a state park if it swimming isn't permitted. I don't know the history behind this particular park, but I'm guessing it was set aside as a combination of a campground and other recreational activities, both passive and active.

I also don't know whether swimming has always been prohibited there. I assume it is now because the beach isn't substantial enough to sustain intensive recreational use, both from an environmental and a public safety standpoint, or maybe just the lack of funding to provide lifeguards.

But the question to me is just one of nomenclature, and whether the term "beach" expressly denotes, or strongly connotes, the permission of swimming. On that subject, I'd note that an inherent characteristic of a beach is a physically accessible waterfront, conducive to exploitation of the water for various purposes (recreational and otherwise). Notably, I don't see any specific prohibition on launching craft from Lakeside Beach, and that's certainly another possible use of a beach. Fishing, as well, is also expressly permitted in the park. So the presence of the beach here does, at least, provide some opportunity to exploit the lakeshore, even if not in every way imaginable.

Quote from: webny99 on December 17, 2020, 12:01:25 PM
State Parks are normally reserved for the major attractions, and in this case, since swimming is disallowed, there's nothing setting this one apart from any generic local, town, or county park (which are usually free).

Why this was in the state's interest is, I think, a very fair question. I can say that the way in which an areas falls into the state parks commission's responsibility isn't always as obvious as one might think. (I might just point to Donald J. Trump State Park as an obvious example.) In this case, I would expect a major factor to be the fact that the state had to acquire lands for the parkway anyhow, which was happening around the same time the park was created.

Also, it's worth noting that the only fees charged at Lakeside Beach are for camping, and for vehicle entry. So if you were land a canoe or kayak there–i.e., if you actually utilized the beach for a beach-related recreational purpose–you could get in for free. :-)

Quote from: webny99 on December 17, 2020, 01:04:28 PM

Quote from: kphoger on December 17, 2020, 12:36:36 PM
Shall I assume you're likewise opposed to the New York state parks below, which also do not allow swimming?

Amsterdam Beach State Park
Bristol Beach State Park
Haverstraw Beach State Park
Nyack Beach State Park

Bristol Beach is not a State Park

Ah yes, its governing body is actually broader than the state, in that the commission under which it operates was formed by interstate compact between New York and New Jersey.

(Also, you should tell the USGS (https://geonames.usgs.gov/apex/f?p=GNISPQ:3:::NO::P3_FID:2457292) that it isn't a state park.  What's up with that?)

I didn't mention Indiana Dunes National Park because it's in Indiana. I was mainly thinking of beaches in Michigan along Lake Michigan.

Quote from: kphoger on December 17, 2020, 02:35:22 PM

Quote from: webny99 on December 17, 2020, 01:04:28 PM
Bristol Beach is not a State Park

Ah yes, its governing body is actually broader than the state, in that the commission under which it operates was formed by interstate compact between New York and New Jersey.

A number of the so-called state parks are managed by that commission. What's the distinction in the case of Bristol Beach? (I'm honestly not familiar with that property.)

Quote from: empirestate on December 17, 2020, 01:56:17 PM
Yes, indeed. It seems to be location-specific; I'm not sure what the exact geological forces are, but I'm assuming a combination of prevailing wind/weather patterns, and the lay of the former ice sheets that created the lakes in the first place.

Given that the prevailing winds are from the west, I think you have to consider wind the #1 factor, though there are no doubt others.

Quote from: empirestate on December 17, 2020, 01:56:17 PM
But the question to me is just one of nomenclature, and whether the term "beach" expressly denotes, or strongly connotes, the permission of swimming. On that subject, I'd note that an inherent characteristic of a beach is a physically accessible waterfront, conducive to exploitation of the water for various purposes (recreational and otherwise). Notably, I don't see any specific prohibition on launching craft from Lakeside Beach, and that's certainly another possible use of a beach. Fishing, as well, is also expressly permitted in the park. So the presence of the beach here does, at least, provide some opportunity to exploit the lakeshore, even if not in every way imaginable.

Yeah, I wouldn't necessarily hear "beach" and expect to be able to, or even want to, swim. That depends on the specifics of the situation. In some cases (some of the ones kphoger linked upthread to, for example), the scenery and atmosphere might be such that just sitting on the beach is sufficiently enjoyable. My issue is with "Park" and "Beach" both being included in the name, because that does, at least for me, create the expectation of being able to swim, or, in the absence of that, something else, like dramatic scenery on the beach, to make up for it.

Quote from: empirestate on December 17, 2020, 01:56:17 PM
Why this was in the state's interest is, I think, a very fair question. I can say that the way in which an areas falls into the state parks commission's responsibility isn't always as obvious as one might think. (I might just point to Donald J. Trump State Park as an obvious example.) In this case, I would expect a major factor to be the fact that the state had to acquire lands for the parkway anyhow, which was happening around the same time the park was created.

Yeah, you can't help but wonder, especially since the park first came up in the context of being the current end of the LOSP. I wonder if it  would be different today - perhaps busier, with swimming allowed, and more comparable to Hamlin - had the parkway had been extended as planned.

Quote from: webny99 on December 17, 2020, 07:46:46 PM

Quote from: empirestate on December 17, 2020, 01:56:17 PM
Yes, indeed. It seems to be location-specific; I'm not sure what the exact geological forces are, but I'm assuming a combination of prevailing wind/weather patterns, and the lay of the former ice sheets that created the lakes in the first place.

Given that the prevailing winds are from the west, I think you have to consider wind the #1 factor, though there are no doubt others.

Out of curiosity, I googled this, and the first result (https://dnr.wisconsin.gov/topic/Waterways/shoreline/greatLakesProcesses.html#:~:text=The%20Great%20Lakes%20constitute%20the,the%20retreating%20glaciers%20left%20behind.%5B/url) that came up actually explains all of this quite succinctly. It does seem to corroborate that wind is the principal force for beach formation and migration. (And also that lake levels are driven primarily by non-astronomical forces.)

Another takeaway for me is that one key ingredient in the formation of Durand beach, besides the trend of the shoreline and the profile of the lake bottom, must be the proximity of the Genesee River and its outflow of sediments. I wonder how typical it is on the other lakes for sand beaches to be found just downshore of major streams and rivers?

QuoteMy issue is with "Park" and "Beach" both being included in the name, because that does, at least for me, create the expectation of being able to swim, or, in the absence of that, something else, like dramatic scenery on the beach, to make up for it.

Sure, I get the expectation, and also I think your view is a little more nuanced than what I was responding to. In my view, if using the word "beach" in a park's name accurately identifies the central feature of that park, then that's enough to explain why the word is used. Further questions may arise, such as why swimming is prohibited, or what recreational resources are worth being managed as a park, if not that one. But the question of why that word is in the name is pretty well settled.

Now, Bristol Beach on the other hand...I'm definitely having trouble seeing where there's a beach there–of note or otherwise. :-)

QuoteYeah, you can't help but wonder, especially since the park first came up in the context of being the current end of the LOSP. I wonder if it  would be different today - perhaps busier, with swimming allowed, and more comparable to Hamlin - had the parkway had been extended as planned.

Hard to say, since we don't have much to compare it to as far as parkway corridors in such a sparsely-populated area of the state. But it is true that parkways and the state parks system (and automobile access in general) have been inextricably linked for a good century now. So one can imagine that completing the LOSP would have been a catalyst to some extent.

Quote from: empirestate on December 17, 2020, 08:24:47 PM
Another takeaway for me is that one key ingredient in the formation of Durand beach, besides the trend of the shoreline and the profile of the lake bottom, must be the proximity of the Genesee River and its outflow of sediments. I wonder how typical it is on the other lakes for sand beaches to be found just downshore of major streams and rivers?

I was thinking such as well.  It appears that there's a strip of sand along the coast from the River to Irondequoit Bay.

Quote from: vdeane on December 17, 2020, 08:38:12 PM

Quote from: empirestate on December 17, 2020, 08:24:47 PM
Another takeaway for me is that one key ingredient in the formation of Durand beach, besides the trend of the shoreline and the profile of the lake bottom, must be the proximity of the Genesee River and its outflow of sediments. I wonder how typical it is on the other lakes for sand beaches to be found just downshore of major streams and rivers?

I was thinking such as well.  It appears that there's a strip of sand along the coast from the River to Irondequoit Bay.

The discharge plume is pretty obvious in satellite images. It seems like it gets caught in the curve of the shoreline, and maybe even travels back westward to some extent.

There's a much more prominent discharge from the Niagara River, but while I think there are some beaches just east of it, it looks like the shoreline doesn't have the shape to prevent the sand from drifting littorally, by and large.

Quote from: empirestate on December 17, 2020, 09:16:11 PM

Quote from: vdeane on December 17, 2020, 08:38:12 PM

Quote from: empirestate on December 17, 2020, 08:24:47 PM
Another takeaway for me is that one key ingredient in the formation of Durand beach, besides the trend of the shoreline and the profile of the lake bottom, must be the proximity of the Genesee River and its outflow of sediments. I wonder how typical it is on the other lakes for sand beaches to be found just downshore of major streams and rivers?

I was thinking such as well.  It appears that there's a strip of sand along the coast from the River to Irondequoit Bay.

...
There's a much more prominent discharge from the Niagara River, but while I think there are some beaches just east of it, it looks like the shoreline doesn't have the shape to prevent the sand from drifting littorally, by and large.

Interesting point(s). Given how sandy the eastern shore is compared to our southern shore, it makes sense that the Genesee is responsible for Durand's formation. Besides Durand and Charlotte, the only significant sand beaches between the Niagara and the eastern shore are Hamlin, which has been modified by the jetties, and Sodus Point, which is, wouldn't you know it, right at the mouth of the Sodus Bay. As for the Niagara, it's worth pointing out that it originates from another one of the Great Lakes rather than an inland source, so that could be a factor as well.

Quote from: empirestate on December 17, 2020, 08:24:47 PM
Sure, I get the expectation, and also I think your view is a little more nuanced than what I was responding to. In my view, if using the word "beach" in a park's name accurately identifies the central feature of that park, then that's enough to explain why the word is used. ... But the question of why that word is in the name is pretty well settled.

Yeah, I get that. I guess my point is that, while the beach is the central feature in the literal sense, it isn't necessarily so as far as the public is concerned. In fact, here's the description given by Google: "Tranquil locale for camping, fishing, hikes & disc golf on picturesque grounds beside Lake Ontario."

No explicit mention of the beach there. So all I'm saying is that you'd think the state responsible for both the naming of the park and the prohibition of swimming on its beach, would recognize that calling attention to the beach in the name creates false expectations. Nuanced, yes. Pedantic, also yes. But not entirely invalid, either.  :)

Quote from: empirestate on December 17, 2020, 08:24:47 PM
Hard to say, since we don't have much to compare it to as far as parkway corridors in such a sparsely-populated area of the state. But it is true that parkways and the state parks system (and automobile access in general) have been inextricably linked for a good century now. So one can imagine that completing the LOSP would have been a catalyst to some extent.

I'd certainly attribute Hamlin's popularity to the LOSP. It's an enjoyable, relaxing drive from Rochester in the summer. I can see a 1950's vision for the Parkway that includes Lakeside, Golden Hill, and Wilson-Tuscarora beaches (swimming allowed, of course) as significant waypoints, with Lakeside drawing traffic from both directions and the other two primarily drawing from the Buffalo/Niagara area.

It's actually kind of too bad that the Parkway was never finished, leaving Hamlin as the only one of the four beaches to really take off... and even that can feel empty, with a lot of excess parking capacity even at peak times.

Grand Haven State Park is just south of the mouth of the Grand River. As you can see here: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Grand+Haven+State+Park/@43.056471,-86.2551789,1145m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x8819809871194045:0x49b03ed4a17fba07!8m2!3d43.0560329!4d-86.2465314

There are piers on both sides of the Grand River there that extend out into Lake Michigan. The Grand River is a major river in Michigan (the longest river in the state) and goes through Grand Rapids, Lansing and Jackson. It's headwaters are in an area of a series of lakes about 10 miles south of Jackson, near the intersection of US-12 and US-127 and US-223's northern terminus.

There are beaches on both sides of where the Black River empties into Lake Michigan called North Beach and South Beach in South Haven. Also another place in Muskegon where the Muskegon-Milwaukee ferry enters Muskegon Lake which becomes the Muskegon River is Pere Marquette Park and Muskegon State Park which both have beaches. Manistee has the same thing with the Manistee River.

So there are some examples on Lake Michigan where a beach is right next to a river's mouth.

It looks like there is some significant beaches on the eastern shore of Lake Ontario. That's what I was wondering though because it seems the same way for Lake Michigan, the eastern shore has the better sand beaches.

As far as the Genesee River I was looking at that but it looks like they have piers just like how the Grand River empties into Lake Michigan in Grand Haven. Also Ontario Beach Park is closer to the mouth of the Genesee River than Durand Beach is. I love the presence of the multiple state parks along the shore.

Quote from: webny99 on December 17, 2020, 11:33:25 PM
Interesting point(s). Given how sandy the eastern shore is compared to our southern shore, it makes sense that the Genesee is responsible for Durand's formation. Besides Durand and Charlotte, the only significant sand beaches between the Niagara and the eastern shore are Hamlin, which has been modified by the jetties, and Sodus Point, which is, wouldn't you know it, right at the mouth of the Sodus Bay.

And it looks like the beach at Sodus is largely created by the jetty there, on the upshore side of the bay entrance. Were it not for the jetties, that sediment would probably have been deposited on the prominent bar on the east side, just like at Irondequoit Bay.

QuoteAs for the Niagara, it's worth pointing out that it originates from another one of the Great Lakes rather than an inland source, so that could be a factor as well.

It certainly contributes to a high volume of sediment, which for some reason does not settle along the nearby shore.

QuoteYeah, I get that. I guess my point is that, while the beach is the central feature in the literal sense, it isn't necessarily so as far as the public is concerned. In fact, here's the description given by Google: "Tranquil locale for camping, fishing, hikes & disc golf on picturesque grounds beside Lake Ontario."

No explicit mention of the beach there. So all I'm saying is that you'd think the state responsible for both the naming of the park and the prohibition of swimming on its beach, would recognize that calling attention to the beach in the name creates false expectations. Nuanced, yes. Pedantic, also yes. But not entirely invalid, either.  :)

Not invalid at all, but perhaps getting into the dreaded "subjective" territory, as not all readers would form that expectation. To support my point, it's enough to show that the presence of "beach" in the park's name is explained by the presence of a beach in the park. And, to show the presence of a beach, we have to show that the prohibition on swimming is not evidence of the absence of a beach, because permission to swim is not a defining characteristic of a beach.

Quote from: Flint1979 on December 18, 2020, 05:32:06 AM
As far as the Genesee River I was looking at that but it looks like they have piers just like how the Grand River empties into Lake Michigan in Grand Haven. Also Ontario Beach Park is closer to the mouth of the Genesee River than Durand Beach is.

Ontario Beach is on the upshore side of the river mouth, so the pier is the main factor there, by collecting sand that's naturally drifting from west to east. If not for the pier, all that would probably join with the river outflow and collect farther east, where Durand is. (Ontario Beach is doubtless helped by some artificial beach nourishment, too.)

Quote from: empirestate on December 20, 2020, 10:13:16 AM

QuoteAs for the Niagara, it's worth pointing out that it originates from another one of the Great Lakes rather than an inland source, so that could be a factor as well.

It certainly contributes to a high volume of sediment, which for some reason does not settle along the nearby shore.

I would've thought that because it's flowing directly from Lake Erie, that would mean less sediment, but maybe I'm wrong on that. I have to imagine also that the Niagara is flowing much faster than the Genesee.

Quote from: empirestate on December 20, 2020, 10:13:16 AM
Not invalid at all, but perhaps getting into the dreaded "subjective" territory, as not all readers would form that expectation. To support my point, it's enough to show that the presence of "beach" in the park's name is explained by the presence of a beach in the park. And, to show the presence of a beach, we have to show that the prohibition on swimming is not evidence of the absence of a beach, because permission to swim is not a defining characteristic of a beach.

Of course swimming being disallowed isn't evidence that the beach doesn't exist. I don't have a problem with the beach being called a beach, but I think Lakeside State Park as a name for the park would be more accurate from the general public's point of view. Several comments on both Google and TripAdvisor mention the lack of swimming as a negative feature, which would support this view.

Back to the earlier conversation about the history of the Parkway, presumably it was at one point intended to be a popular summer destination with swimming allowed, and it was named with that being the expectation. Ultimately, 60 years later, it doesn't really matter, because I agree with the state's assessment that visitor traffic is going to be very low regardless, which means it isn't worth the bother to keep lifeguards on duty. I'd much prefer "swim at your own risk" to "no swimming", but to each their own.

Quote from: webny99 on December 20, 2020, 11:04:08 AMI would've thought that because it's flowing directly from Lake Erie, that would mean less sediment, but maybe I'm wrong on that. I have to imagine also that the Niagara is flowing much faster than the Genesee.

Well that may well be; I'm not sure of the exact hydrologic forces at play. A lot of what comes from the upper Great Lakes is likely deposited in Lake Erie before reaching the Niagara, but on the other hand there are several significant streams that do feed the Niagara from interior New York. And I'm sure the falls play a role, too.

Quote
Of course swimming being disallowed isn't evidence that the beach doesn't exist.

On this I think we all agree, and that's enough to explain why the word appears in the name. So the original question ("what kind of state park calls itself a beach if swimming isn't allowed?") should be answered by "a state park with a beach in it." That doesn't rule out the possibility of a better name, it only has to accurately explain the existing one. (Another possible answer to the question could be "a disappointing state park.")

QuoteI don't have a problem with the beach being called a beach, but I think Lakeside State Park as a name for the park would be more accurate from the general public's point of view. Several comments on both Google and TripAdvisor mention the lack of swimming as a negative feature, which would support this view.

Do the comments reflect the view that the name is inaccurate, or just that the prohibition on swimming is a negative feature? I have no dispute on the second point, and for the first, I'd just return to my own evidence of Durand Eastman Park being widely referred to as a "beach" by the general public, even in the express context of swimming being prohibited there.

QuoteBack to the earlier conversation about the history of the Parkway, presumably it was at one point intended to be a popular summer destination with swimming allowed, and it was named with that being the expectation.

Presumably, but only presumably–there doesn't seem to be much info on the circumstances surrounding this park's establishment. Some old newspapers of the era would probably be the best source on what their thinking was. In general, ways to cool off and escape the urban heat was a guiding principle for state park development, but this one seems to have come towards the waning end of that era.

Quote from: empirestate on December 21, 2020, 01:16:48 PM
Do the comments reflect the view that the name is inaccurate, or just that the prohibition on swimming is a negative feature?

Both, but more frequently the former. No one should be shocked by swimming being disallowed given that it's somewhat common in this state. It's just not usually so at a place that's a state park sold as a beach.

Quote from: empirestate on December 21, 2020, 01:16:48 PM
I have no dispute on the second point, and for the first, I'd just return to my own evidence of Durand Eastman Park being widely referred to as a "beach" by the general public, even in the express context of swimming being prohibited there.

Again, getting a tad subjective here, but I think expectations are different for a state park that most users have to pay for. But besides that, there's no real enforcement at Durand - no signs anywhere, no reason to think it's not allowed, plenty of people doing it on any given summer day (and perhaps it not being a state park plays a role in that).

Quote from: empirestate on December 21, 2020, 01:16:48 PM

Quote from: webny99 on December 20, 2020, 11:04:08 AMI would've thought that because it's flowing directly from Lake Erie, that would mean less sediment, but maybe I'm wrong on that. I have to imagine also that the Niagara is flowing much faster than the Genesee.

Well that may well be; I'm not sure of the exact hydrologic forces at play. A lot of what comes from the upper Great Lakes is likely deposited in Lake Erie before reaching the Niagara, but on the other hand there are several significant streams that do feed the Niagara from interior New York. And I'm sure the falls play a role, too.

I know a little bit about this subject. ;)

For the Niagara River, functionally all of the sediment it is carrying into Lake Ontario is going to be generated downstream from Lake Erie.  It's like that between all of the Great Lakes (the ones connected by rivers, that is). The thru-current within the lakes is far too low for it to transport even clay-sized particles, so all sediment gets dropped once a tributary stream enters one of the Lakes.

As things start flowing again at Buffalo, the moving water now has kinetic energy that it is not using to transport sediment, so it will begin to erode until it's moving enough sediment particles to use up that kinetic energy, at which point erosion ceases.  The available energy depends on the volume of water moving and the gradient it is flowing down. The more energy, the larger the particle size the river can move.  Increase either the volume or the gradient and you get more energy to move sediment (I should be using the term "alluvium" here, not sediment, but that's a little jargony for a general audience).

As the Niagara River spills into Lake Ontario, the energy to transport sediment goes down and the river 'drops' that sediment.  This is the first step in the formation of deltas wherever streams enter 'flat' bodies of water like lakes or oceans.  There's actually a huge, mostly underwater delta at the mouth of the Niagara River one can see in a bathymetric map of the lake:
(https://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/mgg/image/ontario1280.jpg)
It's made entirely of material eroded downstream from Lake Erie (plus some bits from the Niagara's few tributaries.)

Once a river deposits sediment at its mouth, the main force acting on that material switches from fluvial to lacustrine.  That means wave action will push it laterally down the coast over time.  The waves erode the delta while the river is building it.  So not only is it common to form beaches along shorelines adjacent to places where a stream flows in, it's expected.  Unless the volume of the stream is too low or the immediate offshore area gets deep too quickly, one almost always finds beaches next to stream mouths.

Texas: Johnson County. Fuck that place. Especially Cleburne. Imagine a town that sucks so hard that the nearest US highway runs AROUND it because it's not worth going there.

Quote from: webny99 on December 21, 2020, 02:02:08 PM

Quote from: empirestate on December 21, 2020, 01:16:48 PM
Do the comments reflect the view that the name is inaccurate, or just that the prohibition on swimming is a negative feature?

Both, but more frequently the former. No one should be shocked by swimming being disallowed given that it's somewhat common in this state. It's just not usually so at a place that's a state park sold as a beach.

Quote from: empirestate on December 21, 2020, 01:16:48 PM
I have no dispute on the second point, and for the first, I'd just return to my own evidence of Durand Eastman Park being widely referred to as a "beach" by the general public, even in the express context of swimming being prohibited there.

Again, getting a tad subjective here, but I think expectations are different for a state park that most users have to pay for. But besides that, there's no real enforcement at Durand - no signs anywhere, no reason to think it's not allowed, plenty of people doing it on any given summer day (and perhaps it not being a state park plays a role in that).

Yeah, agreed. Both points here seem to support what I'm saying, which is that if there's a semantic quibble with the name, it's more with the words "state park" than with "beach", since "beach" only describes a physiographic feature, whereas "state park" suggests a managed structure for recreational purposes, of which swimming is an example.

So the question that prompted this discussion become a lot more open if we rephrase it as "what kind of beach calls itself a state park if swimming isn't allowed?"–because we are then left wondering what recreational purpose the state sees fit to manage in a park context.

Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 22, 2020, 07:29:11 PM
Once a river deposits sediment at its mouth, the main force acting on that material switches from fluvial to lacustrine.  That means wave action will push it laterally down the coast over time.  The waves erode the delta while the river is building it.  So not only is it common to form beaches along shorelines adjacent to places where a stream flows in, it's expected.  Unless the volume of the stream is too low or the immediate offshore area gets deep too quickly, one almost always finds beaches next to stream mouths.

Great, that's pretty much what I got from the other article I linked to as well. And from the image you provided, it does appear that there is a notable shelf at the mouth of the Genesee, as well as east of Sodus Bay where the Chimney Bluffs formation can be found.

Now that we have the 2020 census data: You'll never guess which New York county has lost the greatest percentage of population from 2000 to 2020.  :bigass:

Quote from: webny99 on August 19, 2021, 10:59:04 PM
Now that we have the 2020 census data: You'll never guess which New York county has lost the greatest percentage of population from 2000 to 2020.  :bigass:

Herkimer.

Quote from: davmillar on December 22, 2020, 09:15:07 PM
Texas: Johnson County. Fuck that place. Especially Cleburne. Imagine a town that sucks so hard that the nearest US highway runs AROUND it because it's not worth going there.

Aren't there dozens of towns/cities in Texas alone that the US route goes around it because it's a newer bypass?

Quote from: Scott5114 on August 20, 2021, 01:10:42 AM

Quote from: webny99 on August 19, 2021, 10:59:04 PM
Now that we have the 2020 census data: You'll never guess which New York county has lost the greatest percentage of population from 2000 to 2020.  :bigass:

Herkimer.

Not a bad guess considering Herkimer has decreased by 6.7%, but there are actually 11 counties that fared even worse.

Quote from: webny99 on August 20, 2021, 09:55:21 AM

Quote from: Scott5114 on August 20, 2021, 01:10:42 AM

Quote from: webny99 on August 19, 2021, 10:59:04 PM
Now that we have the 2020 census data: You'll never guess which New York county has lost the greatest percentage of population from 2000 to 2020.  :bigass:

Herkimer.

Not a bad guess considering Herkimer has decreased by 6.7%, but there are actually 11 counties that fared even worse.

Quote from: Scott5114 on August 20, 2021, 01:10:42 AM

Quote from: webny99 on August 19, 2021, 10:59:04 PM
Now that we have the 2020 census data: You'll never guess which New York county has lost the greatest percentage of population from 2000 to 2020.  :bigass:

Herkimer.

No, it has to be one with a beach. :-D

I know New York has lost a lot of people in the rural areas too so I'm going to take a guess and say it's Hamilton County.

Have you forgotten what this entire thread was about?

Quote from: 1 on August 20, 2021, 02:02:04 PM
Have you forgotten what this entire thread was about?

Worcester or Orleans?

...or did you mean the definition of 'objective'?

Quote from: Flint1979 on August 20, 2021, 01:28:16 PM
I know New York has lost a lot of people in the rural areas too so I'm going to take a guess and say it's Hamilton County.

Also a good guess, and it would be correct if you were looking just at 2000 to 2010. But surprisingly, Hamilton County grew in the 2010's, as I mentioned in the census thread. So for the entire 2000 - 2020 time period, it only lost 5.1% - even less than Herkimer (with less being a positive in this context).

Quote from: 1 on August 20, 2021, 02:02:04 PM
Have you forgotten what this entire thread was about?

I don't think they've forgotten, they're just not assuming it's Orleans. Which is actually a correct assumption, because ...

Quote from: kphoger on August 20, 2021, 02:05:27 PM
Orleans?

... I know this wasn't an answer to my question, but no, it's not Orleans either. In fact, Orleans is so bad that it can't be the best at anything, including losing population.

Get this:

Orleans County population loss, 2000 - 2020: -8.6518%
Chautauqua County population loss, 2000 - 2020: -8.6533%

Difference: 0.0015%
1 person in Orleans County = 0.0022%

So losing one more person would have made Orleans the winner.

But no, there are higher powers at work here: Orleans County simply cannot be the best at anything, not even losing population.

Is that not crazy, or what?  :wow:

Quote from: webny99 on August 20, 2021, 04:14:54 PM
So losing one more person would have made Orleans the winner.

With all the promotion it's been getting on this site, I can only imagine people are moving there–slowly but surely.  Expect a big bump in population for the 2020 census.

I love Texas...but not all of it.  We have 254 counties and a large number of them are just...full of the worst people...redneck, racist, homophobic, addicted to opiates, poorly educated, and still voting for people who supported the capitol insurrection.  There are these same counties in every state too...

Quote from: kphoger on August 20, 2021, 04:24:02 PM

Quote from: webny99 on August 20, 2021, 04:14:54 PM
So losing one more person would have made Orleans the winner.

With all the promotion it's been getting on this site, I can only imagine people are moving there–slowly but surely.  Expect a big bump in population for the 2020 census.

Nope, we already got the 2020 data and there was a 5.91% loss. That's the whole reason I revived this thread in the first place.

So you'll have to wait until 2030 for that.  :D

Quote from: webny99 on August 20, 2021, 04:14:54 PM
So losing one more person would have made Orleans the winner.

You see? Clearly you should have moved to Orleans County, just so you could move out! :-D

Quote from: empirestate on August 20, 2021, 11:40:17 PM

Quote from: webny99 on August 20, 2021, 04:14:54 PM
So losing one more person would have made Orleans the winner.

You see? Clearly you should have moved to Orleans County, just so you could move out! :-D

I know, I was half-expecting someone to suggest that I had claimed residency in Orleans County just to make  this crazy stat true. But I promise I didn't!  :D  :-D

Knowing that you are the difference makes this funny.

Quote from: webny99 on August 20, 2021, 11:15:34 PM

Quote from: kphoger on August 20, 2021, 04:24:02 PM

Quote from: webny99 on August 20, 2021, 04:14:54 PM
So losing one more person would have made Orleans the winner.

With all the promotion it's been getting on this site, I can only imagine people are moving there–slowly but surely.  Expect a big bump in population for the 2020 census.

Nope, we already got the 2020 data and there was a 5.91% loss. That's the whole reason I revived this thread in the first place.

So you'll have to wait until 2030 for that.  :D

How did I type "2020" instead of "2030"?    :facepalm"

Quote from: achilles765 on August 20, 2021, 10:48:46 PM
I love Texas...but not all of it.  We have 254 counties and a large number of them are just...full of the worst people...redneck, racist, homophobic, addicted to opiates, poorly educated, and still voting for people who supported the capitol insurrection.  There are these same counties in every state too...

Gee, I can't imagine why it's hard for you to get along with people out there, when your definition of "the worst people" includes things level of education and voting record...

When driving on I-5 through the upper Sacramento Valley, you go through quite a few counties: Tehama, Butte, Glenn, Colusa, Shasta. Those three in the middle seem like the kind of counties you could just merge into one and no one would know the difference. I guess they're not the worst per se, but I can't think of anything particular notable about any of them. They're in the middle of the valley and all the interesting stuff is off to either side.

Cumberland County, NJ?

Quote from: TheGrassGuy on September 13, 2021, 07:39:50 AM
Cumberland County, NJ?

Why?  I'd also wonder about Passaic County, given Paterson and Passaic's reputations.  Essex County seems to balance Newark with western suburbs...

I dunno.  I know Vineland isn't a happening place, either...

Passaic County is an interesting one. It would have my vote based on the southern half of the county, but much of the northern half (which extends all the way to the NY line) isn't bad and is in fact quite rural by NJ standards.

Quote from: webny99 on September 13, 2021, 09:26:08 AM
Passaic County is an interesting one. It would have my vote based on the southern half of the county, but much of the northern half (which extends all the way to the NY line) isn't bad and is in fact quite rural by NJ standards.

NJ's a tough one.

Maybe Union...

The thing about Union, Essex, and Passaic counties (home to the notoriously rough cities of Elizabeth, Newark, and Paterson respectively) is that the more suburban parts of them are actually pretty tranquil.

I've been around West Milford up by Greenwood Lake. Passaic County is nice in that area and that is still New Jersey actually half the lake is in New York (Orange County) but the scenery is about the same.

Wanting to drive on Clinton Road is what led me to the area.

The worst county in Michigan is by far Wayne County.

Clare County. The college education rate is less than 13%, life expectancy at birth is shorter than the rest of the state, and it's worse economically there than the rest of the state. Clare County has one of the highest poverty rates of any county in the state.

Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on October 21, 2021, 10:28:46 PM
Clare County. The college education rate is less than 13%, life expectancy at birth is shorter than the rest of the state, and it's worse economically there than the rest of the state. Clare County has one of the highest poverty rates of any county in the state.

But is it better or worse than Orleans County?

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 22, 2021, 12:02:23 AM

Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on October 21, 2021, 10:28:46 PM
Clare County. The college education rate is less than 13%, life expectancy at birth is shorter than the rest of the state, and it's worse economically there than the rest of the state. Clare County has one of the highest poverty rates of any county in the state.

But is it better or worse than Orleans County?

Clare County isn't even the worst county in the state. Lake County is the poorest county in the state, Wayne County is the worst though by far.

For everybody saying Wayne County is the worst county in Michigan, I understand all the negatives that Detroit has, but Wayne County also has four professional sports teams, museums, parks, nightlife, and some fantastic lake/river front neighborhoods.

Seems to me that Genesee County has a lot of the same problems as Wayne County without the benefits.

Quote from: cabiness42 on October 22, 2021, 07:27:45 AM
For everybody saying Wayne County is the worst county in Michigan, I understand all the negatives that Detroit has, but Wayne County also has four professional sports teams, museums, parks, nightlife, and some fantastic lake/river front neighborhoods.

Seems to me that Genesee County has a lot of the same problems as Wayne County without the benefits.

Genesee County has Fenton, Grand Blanc, Flint Township, Flushing, Davison and places like that that it benefits from. Flint Township is separate from the city of Flint. Flint and Detroit are in about the same category though, both have downtown's that aren't that bad at all, Flint has a Farmers Market that's been there since the 1950's that's thriving, at least it was pre-COVID. Wayne County has Detroit, Inkster, Lincoln Park, Ecorse, River Rouge, Highland Park, Hamtramck that it has going against it, but also has like Plymouth, Northville, Grosse Ile, Brownstown, the Grosse Pointes and stuff like that going for it. Detroit itself makes Wayne County the worst county in the state but it gets help from the other cities I mentioned there.