Worst county in your state?

[Flint1979]

I didn't mention Indiana Dunes National Park because it's in Indiana. I was mainly thinking of beaches in Michigan along Lake Michigan.

[empirestate]

Bristol Beach is not a State Park

Ah yes, its governing body is actually broader than the state, in that the commission under which it operates was formed by interstate compact between New York and New Jersey.

A number of the so-called state parks are managed by that commission. What's the distinction in the case of Bristol Beach? (I'm honestly not familiar with that property.)

[webny99]

Yes, indeed. It seems to be location-specific; I'm not sure what the exact geological forces are, but I'm assuming a combination of prevailing wind/weather patterns, and the lay of the former ice sheets that created the lakes in the first place.

Given that the prevailing winds are from the west, I think you have to consider wind the #1 factor, though there are no doubt others.

But the question to me is just one of nomenclature, and whether the term "beach" expressly denotes, or strongly connotes, the permission of swimming. On that subject, I'd note that an inherent characteristic of a beach is a physically accessible waterfront, conducive to exploitation of the water for various purposes (recreational and otherwise). Notably, I don't see any specific prohibition on launching craft from Lakeside Beach, and that's certainly another possible use of a beach. Fishing, as well, is also expressly permitted in the park. So the presence of the beach here does, at least, provide some opportunity to exploit the lakeshore, even if not in every way imaginable.

Yeah, I wouldn't necessarily hear "beach" and expect to be able to, or even want to, swim. That depends on the specifics of the situation. In some cases (some of the ones kphoger linked upthread to, for example), the scenery and atmosphere might be such that just sitting on the beach is sufficiently enjoyable. My issue is with "Park" and "Beach" both being included in the name, because that does, at least for me, create the expectation of being able to swim, or, in the absence of that, something else, like dramatic scenery on the beach, to make up for it.

Why this was in the state's interest is, I think, a very fair question. I can say that the way in which an areas falls into the state parks commission's responsibility isn't always as obvious as one might think. (I might just point to Donald J. Trump State Park as an obvious example.) In this case, I would expect a major factor to be the fact that the state had to acquire lands for the parkway anyhow, which was happening around the same time the park was created.

Yeah, you can't help but wonder, especially since the park first came up in the context of being the current end of the LOSP. I wonder if it  would be different today - perhaps busier, with swimming allowed, and more comparable to Hamlin - had the parkway had been extended as planned.

[empirestate]

Yes, indeed. It seems to be location-specific; I'm not sure what the exact geological forces are, but I'm assuming a combination of prevailing wind/weather patterns, and the lay of the former ice sheets that created the lakes in the first place.

Given that the prevailing winds are from the west, I think you have to consider wind the #1 factor, though there are no doubt others.

Out of curiosity, I googled this, and the first result that came up actually explains all of this quite succinctly. It does seem to corroborate that wind is the principal force for beach formation and migration. (And also that lake levels are driven primarily by non-astronomical forces.)

Another takeaway for me is that one key ingredient in the formation of Durand beach, besides the trend of the shoreline and the profile of the lake bottom, must be the proximity of the Genesee River and its outflow of sediments. I wonder how typical it is on the other lakes for sand beaches to be found just downshore of major streams and rivers?

My issue is with "Park" and "Beach" both being included in the name, because that does, at least for me, create the expectation of being able to swim, or, in the absence of that, something else, like dramatic scenery on the beach, to make up for it.

Sure, I get the expectation, and also I think your view is a little more nuanced than what I was responding to. In my view, if using the word "beach" in a park's name accurately identifies the central feature of that park, then that's enough to explain why the word is used. Further questions may arise, such as why swimming is prohibited, or what recreational resources are worth being managed as a park, if not that one. But the question of why that word is in the name is pretty well settled.

Now, Bristol Beach on the other hand...I'm definitely having trouble seeing where there's a beach there–of note or otherwise. :-)

Yeah, you can't help but wonder, especially since the park first came up in the context of being the current end of the LOSP. I wonder if it  would be different today - perhaps busier, with swimming allowed, and more comparable to Hamlin - had the parkway had been extended as planned.

Hard to say, since we don't have much to compare it to as far as parkway corridors in such a sparsely-populated area of the state. But it is true that parkways and the state parks system (and automobile access in general) have been inextricably linked for a good century now. So one can imagine that completing the LOSP would have been a catalyst to some extent.

[vdeane]

Another takeaway for me is that one key ingredient in the formation of Durand beach, besides the trend of the shoreline and the profile of the lake bottom, must be the proximity of the Genesee River and its outflow of sediments. I wonder how typical it is on the other lakes for sand beaches to be found just downshore of major streams and rivers?

I was thinking such as well.  It appears that there's a strip of sand along the coast from the River to Irondequoit Bay.

[empirestate]

Another takeaway for me is that one key ingredient in the formation of Durand beach, besides the trend of the shoreline and the profile of the lake bottom, must be the proximity of the Genesee River and its outflow of sediments. I wonder how typical it is on the other lakes for sand beaches to be found just downshore of major streams and rivers?

I was thinking such as well.  It appears that there's a strip of sand along the coast from the River to Irondequoit Bay.

The discharge plume is pretty obvious in satellite images. It seems like it gets caught in the curve of the shoreline, and maybe even travels back westward to some extent.

There's a much more prominent discharge from the Niagara River, but while I think there are some beaches just east of it, it looks like the shoreline doesn't have the shape to prevent the sand from drifting littorally, by and large.

[webny99]

Another takeaway for me is that one key ingredient in the formation of Durand beach, besides the trend of the shoreline and the profile of the lake bottom, must be the proximity of the Genesee River and its outflow of sediments. I wonder how typical it is on the other lakes for sand beaches to be found just downshore of major streams and rivers?

I was thinking such as well.  It appears that there's a strip of sand along the coast from the River to Irondequoit Bay.

...
There's a much more prominent discharge from the Niagara River, but while I think there are some beaches just east of it, it looks like the shoreline doesn't have the shape to prevent the sand from drifting littorally, by and large.

Interesting point(s). Given how sandy the eastern shore is compared to our southern shore, it makes sense that the Genesee is responsible for Durand's formation. Besides Durand and Charlotte, the only significant sand beaches between the Niagara and the eastern shore are Hamlin, which has been modified by the jetties, and Sodus Point, which is, wouldn't you know it, right at the mouth of the Sodus Bay. As for the Niagara, it's worth pointing out that it originates from another one of the Great Lakes rather than an inland source, so that could be a factor as well.

Sure, I get the expectation, and also I think your view is a little more nuanced than what I was responding to. In my view, if using the word "beach" in a park's name accurately identifies the central feature of that park, then that's enough to explain why the word is used. ... But the question of why that word is in the name is pretty well settled.

Yeah, I get that. I guess my point is that, while the beach is the central feature in the literal sense, it isn't necessarily so as far as the public is concerned. In fact, here's the description given by Google: "Tranquil locale for camping, fishing, hikes & disc golf on picturesque grounds beside Lake Ontario."

No explicit mention of the beach there. So all I'm saying is that you'd think the state responsible for both the naming of the park and the prohibition of swimming on its beach, would recognize that calling attention to the beach in the name creates false expectations. Nuanced, yes. Pedantic, also yes. But not entirely invalid, either. 

Hard to say, since we don't have much to compare it to as far as parkway corridors in such a sparsely-populated area of the state. But it is true that parkways and the state parks system (and automobile access in general) have been inextricably linked for a good century now. So one can imagine that completing the LOSP would have been a catalyst to some extent.

I'd certainly attribute Hamlin's popularity to the LOSP. It's an enjoyable, relaxing drive from Rochester in the summer. I can see a 1950's vision for the Parkway that includes Lakeside, Golden Hill, and Wilson-Tuscarora beaches (swimming allowed, of course) as significant waypoints, with Lakeside drawing traffic from both directions and the other two primarily drawing from the Buffalo/Niagara area.

It's actually kind of too bad that the Parkway was never finished, leaving Hamlin as the only one of the four beaches to really take off... and even that can feel empty, with a lot of excess parking capacity even at peak times.

[Flint1979]

Grand Haven State Park is just south of the mouth of the Grand River. As you can see here: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Grand+Haven+State+Park/@43.056471,-86.2551789,1145m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x8819809871194045:0x49b03ed4a17fba07!8m2!3d43.0560329!4d-86.2465314

There are piers on both sides of the Grand River there that extend out into Lake Michigan. The Grand River is a major river in Michigan (the longest river in the state) and goes through Grand Rapids, Lansing and Jackson. It's headwaters are in an area of a series of lakes about 10 miles south of Jackson, near the intersection of US-12 and US-127 and US-223's northern terminus.

There are beaches on both sides of where the Black River empties into Lake Michigan called North Beach and South Beach in South Haven. Also another place in Muskegon where the Muskegon-Milwaukee ferry enters Muskegon Lake which becomes the Muskegon River is Pere Marquette Park and Muskegon State Park which both have beaches. Manistee has the same thing with the Manistee River.

So there are some examples on Lake Michigan where a beach is right next to a river's mouth.

[Flint1979]

It looks like there is some significant beaches on the eastern shore of Lake Ontario. That's what I was wondering though because it seems the same way for Lake Michigan, the eastern shore has the better sand beaches.

As far as the Genesee River I was looking at that but it looks like they have piers just like how the Grand River empties into Lake Michigan in Grand Haven. Also Ontario Beach Park is closer to the mouth of the Genesee River than Durand Beach is. I love the presence of the multiple state parks along the shore.

[empirestate]

Interesting point(s). Given how sandy the eastern shore is compared to our southern shore, it makes sense that the Genesee is responsible for Durand's formation. Besides Durand and Charlotte, the only significant sand beaches between the Niagara and the eastern shore are Hamlin, which has been modified by the jetties, and Sodus Point, which is, wouldn't you know it, right at the mouth of the Sodus Bay.

And it looks like the beach at Sodus is largely created by the jetty there, on the upshore side of the bay entrance. Were it not for the jetties, that sediment would probably have been deposited on the prominent bar on the east side, just like at Irondequoit Bay.

As for the Niagara, it's worth pointing out that it originates from another one of the Great Lakes rather than an inland source, so that could be a factor as well.

It certainly contributes to a high volume of sediment, which for some reason does not settle along the nearby shore.

Yeah, I get that. I guess my point is that, while the beach is the central feature in the literal sense, it isn't necessarily so as far as the public is concerned. In fact, here's the description given by Google: "Tranquil locale for camping, fishing, hikes & disc golf on picturesque grounds beside Lake Ontario."

No explicit mention of the beach there. So all I'm saying is that you'd think the state responsible for both the naming of the park and the prohibition of swimming on its beach, would recognize that calling attention to the beach in the name creates false expectations. Nuanced, yes. Pedantic, also yes. But not entirely invalid, either. 

Not invalid at all, but perhaps getting into the dreaded "subjective" territory, as not all readers would form that expectation. To support my point, it's enough to show that the presence of "beach" in the park's name is explained by the presence of a beach in the park. And, to show the presence of a beach, we have to show that the prohibition on swimming is not evidence of the absence of a beach, because permission to swim is not a defining characteristic of a beach.

As far as the Genesee River I was looking at that but it looks like they have piers just like how the Grand River empties into Lake Michigan in Grand Haven. Also Ontario Beach Park is closer to the mouth of the Genesee River than Durand Beach is.

Ontario Beach is on the upshore side of the river mouth, so the pier is the main factor there, by collecting sand that's naturally drifting from west to east. If not for the pier, all that would probably join with the river outflow and collect farther east, where Durand is. (Ontario Beach is doubtless helped by some artificial beach nourishment, too.)

[webny99]

As for the Niagara, it's worth pointing out that it originates from another one of the Great Lakes rather than an inland source, so that could be a factor as well.

It certainly contributes to a high volume of sediment, which for some reason does not settle along the nearby shore.

I would've thought that because it's flowing directly from Lake Erie, that would mean less sediment, but maybe I'm wrong on that. I have to imagine also that the Niagara is flowing much faster than the Genesee.

Not invalid at all, but perhaps getting into the dreaded "subjective" territory, as not all readers would form that expectation. To support my point, it's enough to show that the presence of "beach" in the park's name is explained by the presence of a beach in the park. And, to show the presence of a beach, we have to show that the prohibition on swimming is not evidence of the absence of a beach, because permission to swim is not a defining characteristic of a beach.

Of course swimming being disallowed isn't evidence that the beach doesn't exist. I don't have a problem with the beach being called a beach, but I think Lakeside State Park as a name for the park would be more accurate from the general public's point of view. Several comments on both Google and TripAdvisor mention the lack of swimming as a negative feature, which would support this view.

Back to the earlier conversation about the history of the Parkway, presumably it was at one point intended to be a popular summer destination with swimming allowed, and it was named with that being the expectation. Ultimately, 60 years later, it doesn't really matter, because I agree with the state's assessment that visitor traffic is going to be very low regardless, which means it isn't worth the bother to keep lifeguards on duty. I'd much prefer "swim at your own risk" to "no swimming", but to each their own.

[empirestate]

I would've thought that because it's flowing directly from Lake Erie, that would mean less sediment, but maybe I'm wrong on that. I have to imagine also that the Niagara is flowing much faster than the Genesee.

Well that may well be; I'm not sure of the exact hydrologic forces at play. A lot of what comes from the upper Great Lakes is likely deposited in Lake Erie before reaching the Niagara, but on the other hand there are several significant streams that do feed the Niagara from interior New York. And I'm sure the falls play a role, too.

Of course swimming being disallowed isn't evidence that the beach doesn't exist.

On this I think we all agree, and that's enough to explain why the word appears in the name. So the original question ("what kind of state park calls itself a beach if swimming isn't allowed?") should be answered by "a state park with a beach in it." That doesn't rule out the possibility of a better name, it only has to accurately explain the existing one. (Another possible answer to the question could be "a disappointing state park.")

I don't have a problem with the beach being called a beach, but I think Lakeside State Park as a name for the park would be more accurate from the general public's point of view. Several comments on both Google and TripAdvisor mention the lack of swimming as a negative feature, which would support this view.

Do the comments reflect the view that the name is inaccurate, or just that the prohibition on swimming is a negative feature? I have no dispute on the second point, and for the first, I'd just return to my own evidence of Durand Eastman Park being widely referred to as a "beach" by the general public, even in the express context of swimming being prohibited there.

Back to the earlier conversation about the history of the Parkway, presumably it was at one point intended to be a popular summer destination with swimming allowed, and it was named with that being the expectation.

Presumably, but only presumably–there doesn't seem to be much info on the circumstances surrounding this park's establishment. Some old newspapers of the era would probably be the best source on what their thinking was. In general, ways to cool off and escape the urban heat was a guiding principle for state park development, but this one seems to have come towards the waning end of that era.

[webny99]

Do the comments reflect the view that the name is inaccurate, or just that the prohibition on swimming is a negative feature?

Both, but more frequently the former. No one should be shocked by swimming being disallowed given that it's somewhat common in this state. It's just not usually so at a place that's a state park sold as a beach.

I have no dispute on the second point, and for the first, I'd just return to my own evidence of Durand Eastman Park being widely referred to as a "beach" by the general public, even in the express context of swimming being prohibited there.

Again, getting a tad subjective here, but I think expectations are different for a state park that most users have to pay for. But besides that, there's no real enforcement at Durand - no signs anywhere, no reason to think it's not allowed, plenty of people doing it on any given summer day (and perhaps it not being a state park plays a role in that).

[triplemultiplex]

I would've thought that because it's flowing directly from Lake Erie, that would mean less sediment, but maybe I'm wrong on that. I have to imagine also that the Niagara is flowing much faster than the Genesee.

Well that may well be; I'm not sure of the exact hydrologic forces at play. A lot of what comes from the upper Great Lakes is likely deposited in Lake Erie before reaching the Niagara, but on the other hand there are several significant streams that do feed the Niagara from interior New York. And I'm sure the falls play a role, too.

I know a little bit about this subject.

For the Niagara River, functionally all of the sediment it is carrying into Lake Ontario is going to be generated downstream from Lake Erie.  It's like that between all of the Great Lakes (the ones connected by rivers, that is). The thru-current within the lakes is far too low for it to transport even clay-sized particles, so all sediment gets dropped once a tributary stream enters one of the Lakes.

As things start flowing again at Buffalo, the moving water now has kinetic energy that it is not using to transport sediment, so it will begin to erode until it's moving enough sediment particles to use up that kinetic energy, at which point erosion ceases.  The available energy depends on the volume of water moving and the gradient it is flowing down. The more energy, the larger the particle size the river can move.  Increase either the volume or the gradient and you get more energy to move sediment (I should be using the term "alluvium" here, not sediment, but that's a little jargony for a general audience).

As the Niagara River spills into Lake Ontario, the energy to transport sediment goes down and the river 'drops' that sediment.  This is the first step in the formation of deltas wherever streams enter 'flat' bodies of water like lakes or oceans.  There's actually a huge, mostly underwater delta at the mouth of the Niagara River one can see in a bathymetric map of the lake:

It's made entirely of material eroded downstream from Lake Erie (plus some bits from the Niagara's few tributaries.)

Once a river deposits sediment at its mouth, the main force acting on that material switches from fluvial to lacustrine.  That means wave action will push it laterally down the coast over time.  The waves erode the delta while the river is building it.  So not only is it common to form beaches along shorelines adjacent to places where a stream flows in, it's expected.  Unless the volume of the stream is too low or the immediate offshore area gets deep too quickly, one almost always finds beaches next to stream mouths.

[davmillar]

Texas: Johnson County. Fuck that place. Especially Cleburne. Imagine a town that sucks so hard that the nearest US highway runs AROUND it because it's not worth going there.

[empirestate]

Do the comments reflect the view that the name is inaccurate, or just that the prohibition on swimming is a negative feature?

Both, but more frequently the former. No one should be shocked by swimming being disallowed given that it's somewhat common in this state. It's just not usually so at a place that's a state park sold as a beach.

I have no dispute on the second point, and for the first, I'd just return to my own evidence of Durand Eastman Park being widely referred to as a "beach" by the general public, even in the express context of swimming being prohibited there.

Again, getting a tad subjective here, but I think expectations are different for a state park that most users have to pay for. But besides that, there's no real enforcement at Durand - no signs anywhere, no reason to think it's not allowed, plenty of people doing it on any given summer day (and perhaps it not being a state park plays a role in that).

Yeah, agreed. Both points here seem to support what I'm saying, which is that if there's a semantic quibble with the name, it's more with the words "state park" than with "beach", since "beach" only describes a physiographic feature, whereas "state park" suggests a managed structure for recreational purposes, of which swimming is an example.

So the question that prompted this discussion become a lot more open if we rephrase it as "what kind of beach calls itself a state park if swimming isn't allowed?"–because we are then left wondering what recreational purpose the state sees fit to manage in a park context.

Once a river deposits sediment at its mouth, the main force acting on that material switches from fluvial to lacustrine.  That means wave action will push it laterally down the coast over time.  The waves erode the delta while the river is building it.  So not only is it common to form beaches along shorelines adjacent to places where a stream flows in, it's expected.  Unless the volume of the stream is too low or the immediate offshore area gets deep too quickly, one almost always finds beaches next to stream mouths.

Great, that's pretty much what I got from the other article I linked to as well. And from the image you provided, it does appear that there is a notable shelf at the mouth of the Genesee, as well as east of Sodus Bay where the Chimney Bluffs formation can be found.

[webny99]

Now that we have the 2020 census data: You'll never guess which New York county has lost the greatest percentage of population from 2000 to 2020. 

[Scott5114]

Now that we have the 2020 census data: You'll never guess which New York county has lost the greatest percentage of population from 2000 to 2020. 

Herkimer.

[SectorZ]

Texas: Johnson County. Fuck that place. Especially Cleburne. Imagine a town that sucks so hard that the nearest US highway runs AROUND it because it's not worth going there.

Aren't there dozens of towns/cities in Texas alone that the US route goes around it because it's a newer bypass?

[webny99]

Now that we have the 2020 census data: You'll never guess which New York county has lost the greatest percentage of population from 2000 to 2020. 

Herkimer.

Not a bad guess considering Herkimer has decreased by 6.7%, but there are actually 11 counties that fared even worse.

[empirestate]

Now that we have the 2020 census data: You'll never guess which New York county has lost the greatest percentage of population from 2000 to 2020. 

Herkimer.

Not a bad guess considering Herkimer has decreased by 6.7%, but there are actually 11 counties that fared even worse.

Now that we have the 2020 census data: You'll never guess which New York county has lost the greatest percentage of population from 2000 to 2020. 

Herkimer.

No, it has to be one with a beach.

[Flint1979]

I know New York has lost a lot of people in the rural areas too so I'm going to take a guess and say it's Hamilton County.

[hotdogPi]

Have you forgotten what this entire thread was about?

[kphoger]

Have you forgotten what this entire thread was about?

Worcester or Orleans?

...or did you mean the definition of 'objective'?

[webny99]

I know New York has lost a lot of people in the rural areas too so I'm going to take a guess and say it's Hamilton County.

Also a good guess, and it would be correct if you were looking just at 2000 to 2010. But surprisingly, Hamilton County grew in the 2010's, as I mentioned in the census thread. So for the entire 2000 - 2020 time period, it only lost 5.1% - even less than Herkimer (with less being a positive in this context).