Traffic signal

[RestrictOnTheHanger]

While on the topic of NYC traffic lights, uhhh what is going on here: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7203695,-73.9939986,3a,16.4y,316.06h,97.32t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sWf4dmukbO-FGFxncwkEY_A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Theres other examples of this setup, mostly where traffic gets a lagging or on-red/overlap protected right

Not saying its right but....

https://maps.app.goo.gl/M5HbDKCJ7hkbdooe9

[roadman65]

HAWK signal on a span wire in Garden City, Georgia.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/54480415@N08/50563329062/in/dateposted-public/

[STLmapboy]

Get a load of this. Midland, TX.

Also; does anyone know how this works? There's a three section FYA (with a red ball) and a five-section signal that says "thru proceed on flashing yellow."

[jakeroot]

Also; does anyone know how this works? There's a three section FYA (with a red ball) and a five-section signal that says "thru proceed on flashing yellow."

So, the opposing left has an FYA signal, so the flashing yellow orb is not meant to give precedent to someone else.

My guess is that the gate is sometimes closed, so instead of having a green orb which may inadvertently lead to drivers going full speed into the gate, they installed flashing yellow orbs to encourage traffic to use caution when going straight.

[plain]

HAWK signal on a span wire in Garden City, Georgia.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/54480415@N08/50563329062/in/dateposted-public/

I'm actually surprised GA installed a HAWK on a wire span. It would've made more sense to me (sad to say) if one of the Carolinas would've done it first.

Also; does anyone know how this works? There's a three section FYA (with a red ball) and a five-section signal that says "thru proceed on flashing yellow."

So, the opposing left has an FYA signal, so the flashing yellow orb is not meant to give precedent to someone else.

My guess is that the gate is sometimes closed, so instead of having a green orb which may inadvertently lead to drivers going full speed into the gate, they installed flashing yellow orbs to encourage traffic to use caution when going straight.

That's what I was thinking as well. Still an odd install.

[STLmapboy]

Just came across this DC-style install in Big Spring, TX.

[STLmapboy]

Also out of West Texas (Sweetwater): this ancient four-way beacon.

[jakeroot]

Just came across this DC-style install in Big Spring, TX.

Hmmm. That's very odd. I must wonder why didn't they just rotate the left-most signal on each pole 90 degrees clockwise? That way there'd be two green orbs for each approach, as there is now, but there'd be one on each side of the approach rather than all on the right.

For the record, I recognize that some municipalities avoid posting solid green orbs on the left-most side of an intersection, but this rule is generally disregarded when only pole-mounted signals are used.

[Amtrakprod]

Flashing yellow bike signal, and 4 section signal with a flashing right arrow in the bottom section. WTH MN?
https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9473283,-93.0887404,3a,75y,170.68h,90.24t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1saABzKVarAMUIiK1BvwUAng!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

[jakeroot]

Flashing yellow bike signal, and 4 section signal with a flashing right arrow in the bottom section. WTH MN?
https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9473283,-93.0887404,3a,75y,170.68h,90.24t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1saABzKVarAMUIiK1BvwUAng!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I think that 4-section signal is for regular traffic, and the flashing yellow right arrow reinforces the need to yield when turning right (to the cycle path). Seems like a clean and straightforward setup to me.

[roadfro]

Just came across this DC-style install in Big Spring, TX.

Hmmm. That's very odd. I must wonder why didn't they just rotate the left-most signal on each pole 90 degrees clockwise? That way there'd be two green orbs for each approach, as there is now, but there'd be one on each side of the approach rather than all on the right.

For the record, I recognize that some municipalities avoid posting solid green orbs on the left-most side of an intersection, but this rule is generally disregarded when only pole-mounted signals are used.

That installation is not compliant when you consider signal head separation. But jakeroot's suggestion would be an easy fix to bring this into compliance (obviously it also takes some rewiring). But I almost question whether the signal is needed at all...

Flashing yellow bike signal, and 4 section signal with a flashing right arrow in the bottom section. WTH MN?
https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9473283,-93.0887404,3a,75y,170.68h,90.24t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1saABzKVarAMUIiK1BvwUAng!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I think that 4-section signal is for regular traffic, and the flashing yellow right arrow reinforces the need to yield when turning right (to the cycle path). Seems like a clean and straightforward setup to me.

It might not be a MUTCD-standard setup, but I like this as well. Since there's not dedicated turn lanes, you can't use an all-arrow display, so this seems to be the next best way to call attention that drivers must yield across the bike lane using signalization. There's even a similar left turn implementation several blocks away where the street has two-way travel.

[Amtrakprod]

My issue with those signals is not the 4 section with the FYA section, but the Flashing yellow bike signal. Bikes should always have a green instead; it's dangerous to make bikes yield. It's weird.


iPhone

[Amtrakprod]

This one is really cool:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8870279,-77.0499678,3a,28.3y,171.04h,95.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s85z7Kx8NfNQ8XM9KQ8ikDg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

[jeffandnicole]

My issue with those signals is not the 4 section with the FYA section, but the Flashing yellow bike signal. Bikes should always have a green instead; it's dangerous to make bikes yield. It's weird.


iPhone

Impossible for a bike signal to always be green. By default, cross traffic would never be permitted to cross then.

This one is really cool:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8870279,-77.0499678,3a,28.3y,171.04h,95.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s85z7Kx8NfNQ8XM9KQ8ikDg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Referring to the worded Don't Walk sign? That was the previous standard for a Walk/Don't Walk sign.

[fwydriver405]

My issue with those signals is not the 4 section with the FYA section, but the Flashing yellow bike signal. Bikes should always have a green instead; it's dangerous to make bikes yield. It's weird.
iPhone

Impossible for a bike signal to always be green. By default, cross-traffic would never be permitted to cross then.

I want to take a guess that maybe the bikes and pedestrians have either a leading or lagging protected interval for a few seconds, hence the reason for having the green indication?

Examples: 1, 2, 3

Since I'm guessing the green ball + flashing yellow arrow in both of those examples for motor vehicles are permissive only, and end simultaneously, is there a need for a steady yellow arrow, or can both be terminated with circular yellow?

[fwydriver405]

This one is really cool:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8870279,-77.0499678,3a,28.3y,171.04h,95.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s85z7Kx8NfNQ8XM9KQ8ikDg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Referring to the worded Don't Walk sign? That was the previous standard for a Walk/Don't Walk sign.

I'm also taking a wild guess that those are 3M pedestrian signals, judging from the housing.

[jeffandnicole]

This one is really cool:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8870279,-77.0499678,3a,28.3y,171.04h,95.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s85z7Kx8NfNQ8XM9KQ8ikDg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Referring to the worded Don't Walk sign? That was the previous standard for a Walk/Don't Walk sign.

I'm also taking a wild guess that those are 3M pedestrian signals, judging from the housing.

Nah. Again, that was the standard look of ped signals before the "Man/Hand" signals became standard. There was some variations of housing for pedestrians signals with words, but two square housings like this was one of the more common setups.

[Amtrakprod]

This one is really cool:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8870279,-77.0499678,3a,28.3y,171.04h,95.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s85z7Kx8NfNQ8XM9KQ8ikDg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Referring to the worded Don't Walk sign? That was the previous standard for a Walk/Don't Walk sign.

I'm also taking a wild guess that those are 3M pedestrian signals, judging from the housing.

Correct. I never understood why anyone would need these tho


iPhone

[Revive 755]

Flashing yellow bike signal, and 4 section signal with a flashing right arrow in the bottom section. WTH MN?
https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9473283,-93.0887404,3a,75y,170.68h,90.24t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1saABzKVarAMUIiK1BvwUAng!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I think that 4-section signal is for regular traffic, and the flashing yellow right arrow reinforces the need to yield when turning right (to the cycle path). Seems like a clean and straightforward setup to me.

The flashing yellow bicycle signal may be part of an FHWA approved experiment - see https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/reqdetails.asp?id=1460.

There are also a number of experiments where there are conflicts with the green bicycle indication.

[RestrictOnTheHanger]

My issue with those signals is not the 4 section with the FYA section, but the Flashing yellow bike signal. Bikes should always have a green instead; it's dangerous to make bikes yield. It's weird.
iPhone

Impossible for a bike signal to always be green. By default, cross-traffic would never be permitted to cross then.

I want to take a guess that maybe the bikes and pedestrians have either a leading or lagging protected interval for a few seconds, hence the reason for having the green indication?

Examples: 1, 2, 3

Since I'm guessing the green ball + flashing yellow arrow in both of those examples for motor vehicles are permissive only, and end simultaneously, is there a need for a steady yellow arrow, or can both be terminated with circular yellow?

Why do those signals use a red ball for the right turn instead of an arrow?

[fwydriver405]

Why do those signals use a red ball for the right turn instead of an arrow?

I'm not sure about MN's stance on turning right (and left from one way to one way) on a red arrow after stop, but in states where right on red arrow is prohibited, but the agency wants to use an LPI (can include NTOR) but allow right on red when the cross street has it's phase, this is the type of FYA signal to use to allow separate signal control from other movements (left and thru).

Refer to MUTCD Figure 4D-19 for this configuration. The red ball must be visibility limited or louvred when operating as a dedicated right turn signal, otherwise, the RIGHT TURN SIGNAL is required.

[hotdogPi]

Why do those signals use a red ball for the right turn instead of an arrow?

I'm not sure about MN's stance on turning right (and left from one way to one way) on a red arrow after stop, but in states where right on red arrow is prohibited, but the agency wants to use an LPI (can include NTOR) but allow right on red when the cross street has it's phase, this is the type of FYA signal to use to allow separate signal control from other movements (left and thru).

Refer to MUTCD Figure 4D-19 for this configuration. The red ball must be visibility limited or louvred when operating as a dedicated right turn signal, otherwise, the RIGHT TURN SIGNAL is required.

As I've said before, if MN is a "no turn on red arrow" state, it should be a solid red arrow when RTOR is prohibited and a flashing red arrow when it is allowed. I don't know of a single signal that actually does this (switching between flashing/solid instead of using a light-up NTOR sign), but the meanings of flashing and solid red arrows are already defined.

[jakeroot]

Flashing yellow bike signal, and 4 section signal with a flashing right arrow in the bottom section. WTH MN?
https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9473283,-93.0887404,3a,75y,170.68h,90.24t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1saABzKVarAMUIiK1BvwUAng!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I think that 4-section signal is for regular traffic, and the flashing yellow right arrow reinforces the need to yield when turning right (to the cycle path). Seems like a clean and straightforward setup to me.

It might not be a MUTCD-standard setup, but I like this as well. Since there's not dedicated turn lanes, you can't use an all-arrow display, so this seems to be the next best way to call attention that drivers must yield across the bike lane using signalization. There's even a similar left turn implementation several blocks away where the street has two-way travel.

My issue with those signals is not the 4 section with the FYA section, but the Flashing yellow bike signal. Bikes should always have a green instead; it's dangerous to make bikes yield. It's weird.

I don't think the purpose of the flashing yellow bike signal is to make bikes yield. I think it's used to alert cyclists, much like a solid yellow orb for traffic, that you can proceed with the right-of-way, but you should exercise caution while doing so. As is the case with solid yellow orbs, there is the possibility of cross-traffic. You still have the right-of-way, but they want to keep you alert.

In Alexandria, VA, there is a cycle path that parallels the GW Pkwy. The pathway manages to avoid intersecting with the parkway for the most part, but at Thornton Road south of the beltway (may not actually be part of GW Pkwy...DC natives: help!!), where the left turns off the parkway are "yield on green", the cycle path has a flashing yellow orb in place of a green orb. I live a bit north of here and ride my bike around here, but haven't been this far south yet to actually see it and take a picture of it yet. Until you posted those examples from St Paul, I'd never seen them anywhere else.

[jakeroot]

Why do those signals use a red ball for the right turn instead of an arrow?

I'm not sure about MN's stance on turning right (and left from one way to one way) on a red arrow after stop, but in states where right on red arrow is prohibited, but the agency wants to use an LPI (can include NTOR) but allow right on red when the cross street has it's phase, this is the type of FYA signal to use to allow separate signal control from other movements (left and thru).

Refer to MUTCD Figure 4D-19 for this configuration. The red ball must be visibility limited or louvred when operating as a dedicated right turn signal, otherwise, the RIGHT TURN SIGNAL is required.

As I've said before, if MN is a "no turn on red arrow" state, it should be a solid red arrow when RTOR is prohibited and a flashing red arrow when it is allowed. I don't know of a single signal that actually does this (switching between flashing/solid instead of using a light-up NTOR sign), but the meanings of flashing and solid red arrows are already defined.

At the very least, they could use a red arrow but then install "right on red OK after stop" signage, if they don't feel like making it flash. Although yes, I think a flashing red arrow would be better overall.

I don't fully understand the idea of installing a dedicated turn signal with red orbs to allow turns on red, with an accompanying "xxx TURN SIGNAL" sign, when an arrow signal and accompanying "turn on red arrow OK after stop" sign could be used instead. Same number of lenses and signs, but at least you wouldn't have a weird green orb + red orb combo.

[Amtrakprod]

Why do those signals use a red ball for the right turn instead of an arrow?

I'm not sure about MN's stance on turning right (and left from one way to one way) on a red arrow after stop, but in states where right on red arrow is prohibited, but the agency wants to use an LPI (can include NTOR) but allow right on red when the cross street has it's phase, this is the type of FYA signal to use to allow separate signal control from other movements (left and thru).

Refer to MUTCD Figure 4D-19 for this configuration. The red ball must be visibility limited or louvred when operating as a dedicated right turn signal, otherwise, the RIGHT TURN SIGNAL is required.

As I've said before, if MN is a "no turn on red arrow" state, it should be a solid red arrow when RTOR is prohibited and a flashing red arrow when it is allowed. I don't know of a single signal that actually does this (switching between flashing/solid instead of using a light-up NTOR sign), but the meanings of flashing and solid red arrows are already defined.

At the very least, they could use a red arrow but then install "right on red OK after stop" signage, if they don't feel like making it flash. Although yes, I think a flashing red arrow would be better overall.

I don't fully understand the idea of installing a dedicated turn signal with red orbs to allow turns on red, with an accompanying "xxx TURN SIGNAL" sign, when an arrow signal and accompanying "turn on red arrow OK after stop" sign could be used instead. Same number of lenses and signs, but at least you wouldn't have a weird green orb + red orb combo.

Agreed Jake. I hate left turn signal and right turn signal signs.


iPhone