The Shopping Mall Survives

[kphoger]

Pretty much the only time I go to the mall is when one of the boys needs a new pair of shoes.

The last time was actually to buy a hat from Lids for my dad as a Christmas present.

[skluth]

The only reason I go to the local mall is that they have a still-open Barnes and Noble

[bing101]

In my area the mall is a big deal when people have to go to Best Buy for the lastest computer, phone or TV.

[kernals12]

The thing to remember is that, after 20 years of widespread internet access, only 13% of all retail sales are online, and until drone delivery is perfected, going to the store is the only way to buy what you want and get it on the same day. Many retailers are adapting by allowing people to order online then pick up at the store. Ironically, Amazon may wind up saving brick and mortar retail. Their Just-Walk-Out technology eliminates the most tedious part of shopping: waiting in the check-out line.

[1995hoo]

... Ironically, Amazon may wind up saving brick and mortar retail. Their Just-Walk-Out technology eliminates the most tedious part of shopping: waiting in the check-out line.

I've used that a couple of times at the Amazon Fresh grocery store near us. Haven't been able to use it every time because a couple of times they didn't have any of the special shopping carts available. But it's really interesting to use that function when it's available. For once I agree 100% with kernals12 about something: The traditional grocery store checkout system is a massive waste of time. You take everything out of your cart and put it on a checkout belt so a store employee can rearrange it and put it all back in your cart.

Amazon's system, in which the special carts have barcode scanners inside, seems like it may be better-designed to combat the understandable shoplifting concerns that probably make some grocery stores reluctant to implement the self-scan systems offered as an option at some stores. The self-scan system will occasionally require an employee to audit your purchase by re-scanning some number of items for verification, but there are still going to be people who slip in small extra items or who scan a cheaper item and then put a more expensive item in the cart. Amazon's carts seem to be designed to prevent that sort of thing, although I'm sure some miscreant somewhere will find a way.

[skluth]

... Ironically, Amazon may wind up saving brick and mortar retail. Their Just-Walk-Out technology eliminates the most tedious part of shopping: waiting in the check-out line.

I've used that a couple of times at the Amazon Fresh grocery store near us. Haven't been able to use it every time because a couple of times they didn't have any of the special shopping carts available. But it's really interesting to use that function when it's available. For once I agree 100% with kernals12 about something: The traditional grocery store checkout system is a massive waste of time. You take everything out of your cart and put it on a checkout belt so a store employee can rearrange it and put it all back in your cart.

Amazon's system, in which the special carts have barcode scanners inside, seems like it may be better-designed to combat the understandable shoplifting concerns that probably make some grocery stores reluctant to implement the self-scan systems offered as an option at some stores. The self-scan system will occasionally require an employee to audit your purchase by re-scanning some number of items for verification, but there are still going to be people who slip in small extra items or who scan a cheaper item and then put a more expensive item in the cart. Amazon's carts seem to be designed to prevent that sort of thing, although I'm sure some miscreant somewhere will find a way.

What ever happened to the "every item gets a RFID device" concept? I remember reading not long ago that retailers wanted to put a small RFID device on everything and the devices could be read in the shopping cart. You'd just pull up to the cashier or self-checkout where the RFID scanner detects and registers your items faster than any cashier, pay the cashier or machine, and leave with your purchases. Shoppers could place their purchases in their bags as they shop. No need to scan. Much harder to cheat the system if you can't access the tags to swap them surreptitiously.

Many items already have RFID tags, especially big box merchandise products from TVs to clothing. It might be too difficult for items like produce. But if you can get through your cart with the only things needing to be scanned being a few bananas or avocados it might still work.

[Max Rockatansky]

... Ironically, Amazon may wind up saving brick and mortar retail. Their Just-Walk-Out technology eliminates the most tedious part of shopping: waiting in the check-out line.

I've used that a couple of times at the Amazon Fresh grocery store near us. Haven't been able to use it every time because a couple of times they didn't have any of the special shopping carts available. But it's really interesting to use that function when it's available. For once I agree 100% with kernals12 about something: The traditional grocery store checkout system is a massive waste of time. You take everything out of your cart and put it on a checkout belt so a store employee can rearrange it and put it all back in your cart.

Amazon's system, in which the special carts have barcode scanners inside, seems like it may be better-designed to combat the understandable shoplifting concerns that probably make some grocery stores reluctant to implement the self-scan systems offered as an option at some stores. The self-scan system will occasionally require an employee to audit your purchase by re-scanning some number of items for verification, but there are still going to be people who slip in small extra items or who scan a cheaper item and then put a more expensive item in the cart. Amazon's carts seem to be designed to prevent that sort of thing, although I'm sure some miscreant somewhere will find a way.

What ever happened to the "every item gets a RFID device" concept? I remember reading not long ago that retailers wanted to put a small RFID device on everything and the devices could be read in the shopping cart. You'd just pull up to the cashier or self-checkout where the RFID scanner detects and registers your items faster than any cashier, pay the cashier or machine, and leave with your purchases. Shoppers could place their purchases in their bags as they shop. No need to scan. Much harder to cheat the system if you can't access the tags to swap them surreptitiously.

Many items already have RFID tags, especially big box merchandise products from TVs to clothing. It might be too difficult for items like produce. But if you can get through your cart with the only things needing to be scanned being a few bananas or avocados it might still work.

Costs too much per item.  The last pricing I recall seeing for RFIDs was $0.10 cents per tag.  Vendors don't want to absorb the cost of individual RFID tags for standalone items and retailers don't want to pay employees to affix them. 

Basically this is pretty similar to how EAS tags originally had to be affixed at the store level.  Vendors outright refused to source tag EAS until the price point became basically nominal.  The last pricing I've seen for EAS tags has them running at a range of $0.02-0.04 cents a unit.  I think you are mistaking clothing and electronics tags for RFID when they are vendor sourced EAS.   

[kernals12]

... Ironically, Amazon may wind up saving brick and mortar retail. Their Just-Walk-Out technology eliminates the most tedious part of shopping: waiting in the check-out line.

I've used that a couple of times at the Amazon Fresh grocery store near us. Haven't been able to use it every time because a couple of times they didn't have any of the special shopping carts available. But it's really interesting to use that function when it's available. For once I agree 100% with kernals12 about something: The traditional grocery store checkout system is a massive waste of time. You take everything out of your cart and put it on a checkout belt so a store employee can rearrange it and put it all back in your cart.

Amazon's system, in which the special carts have barcode scanners inside, seems like it may be better-designed to combat the understandable shoplifting concerns that probably make some grocery stores reluctant to implement the self-scan systems offered as an option at some stores. The self-scan system will occasionally require an employee to audit your purchase by re-scanning some number of items for verification, but there are still going to be people who slip in small extra items or who scan a cheaper item and then put a more expensive item in the cart. Amazon's carts seem to be designed to prevent that sort of thing, although I'm sure some miscreant somewhere will find a way.

What ever happened to the "every item gets a RFID device" concept? I remember reading not long ago that retailers wanted to put a small RFID device on everything and the devices could be read in the shopping cart. You'd just pull up to the cashier or self-checkout where the RFID scanner detects and registers your items faster than any cashier, pay the cashier or machine, and leave with your purchases. Shoppers could place their purchases in their bags as they shop. No need to scan. Much harder to cheat the system if you can't access the tags to swap them surreptitiously.

Many items already have RFID tags, especially big box merchandise products from TVs to clothing. It might be too difficult for items like produce. But if you can get through your cart with the only things needing to be scanned being a few bananas or avocados it might still work.

But then why don't electronics and clothing retailers allow self check-out?

[Max Rockatansky]

^^^

Because the tags are likely EAS and not RFID. 

[Bruce]

... Ironically, Amazon may wind up saving brick and mortar retail. Their Just-Walk-Out technology eliminates the most tedious part of shopping: waiting in the check-out line.

I've used that a couple of times at the Amazon Fresh grocery store near us. Haven't been able to use it every time because a couple of times they didn't have any of the special shopping carts available. But it's really interesting to use that function when it's available. For once I agree 100% with kernals12 about something: The traditional grocery store checkout system is a massive waste of time. You take everything out of your cart and put it on a checkout belt so a store employee can rearrange it and put it all back in your cart.

Amazon's system, in which the special carts have barcode scanners inside, seems like it may be better-designed to combat the understandable shoplifting concerns that probably make some grocery stores reluctant to implement the self-scan systems offered as an option at some stores. The self-scan system will occasionally require an employee to audit your purchase by re-scanning some number of items for verification, but there are still going to be people who slip in small extra items or who scan a cheaper item and then put a more expensive item in the cart. Amazon's carts seem to be designed to prevent that sort of thing, although I'm sure some miscreant somewhere will find a way.

What ever happened to the "every item gets a RFID device" concept? I remember reading not long ago that retailers wanted to put a small RFID device on everything and the devices could be read in the shopping cart. You'd just pull up to the cashier or self-checkout where the RFID scanner detects and registers your items faster than any cashier, pay the cashier or machine, and leave with your purchases. Shoppers could place their purchases in their bags as they shop. No need to scan. Much harder to cheat the system if you can't access the tags to swap them surreptitiously.

Many items already have RFID tags, especially big box merchandise products from TVs to clothing. It might be too difficult for items like produce. But if you can get through your cart with the only things needing to be scanned being a few bananas or avocados it might still work.

Meanwhile their Go Grocery stores use cameras to track everything instead of needing a special cart or RFID tags. It's also being used at Climate Pledge Arena, which is a great use case (high customer volume in a space that can be tightly controlled).

[Scott5114]

I wouldn't want to shop at a store where all checkout is automatically done with RFID tags or whatever. Too many chances for the company to rip you off by having the wrong tag scan, double scan, etc., and if you have 100+ items (like at a grocery store or whatever) it is too much trouble to stand there and audit the receipt before paying. And it would be even worse if there's no human there to immediately resolve any disputes and you're expected to go through some byzantine appeals system.

At least with a human checker you can casually keep an eye on what they're doing and if you hear a double beep or whatever ask for them to stop and check that it was scanned correctly.

[Rothman]

I wouldn't want to shop at a store where all checkout is automatically done with RFID tags or whatever. Too many chances for the company to rip you off by having the wrong tag scan, double scan, etc., and if you have 100+ items (like at a grocery store or whatever) it is too much trouble to stand there and audit the receipt before paying. And it would be even worse if there's no human there to immediately resolve any disputes and you're expected to go through some byzantine appeals system.

At least with a human checker you can casually keep an eye on what they're doing and if you hear a double beep or whatever ask for them to stop and check that it was scanned correctly.

I don't see RFID as being any worse as self-checkout is now.  All self-checkouts I have been in have people for assistance if things go awry.

[Scott5114]

I wouldn't want to shop at a store where all checkout is automatically done with RFID tags or whatever. Too many chances for the company to rip you off by having the wrong tag scan, double scan, etc., and if you have 100+ items (like at a grocery store or whatever) it is too much trouble to stand there and audit the receipt before paying. And it would be even worse if there's no human there to immediately resolve any disputes and you're expected to go through some byzantine appeals system.

At least with a human checker you can casually keep an eye on what they're doing and if you hear a double beep or whatever ask for them to stop and check that it was scanned correctly.

I don't see RFID as being any worse as self-checkout is now.  All self-checkouts I have been in have people for assistance if things go awry.

Yes, but with a self-checkout the customer is actively part of the process. I know immediately if something double-scans and flag down the attendant for help.

I seem to remember reading in some of Amazon's pilot stores, you don't even explicitly check out. It just keeps track of what it thinks you walked out the door with, and then charges your credit card accordingly.

[KCRoadFan]

My observation: here in the KC area (Overland Park), Oak Park Mall is doing pretty well. I love it!

[1995hoo]

I wouldn't want to shop at a store where all checkout is automatically done with RFID tags or whatever. Too many chances for the company to rip you off by having the wrong tag scan, double scan, etc., and if you have 100+ items (like at a grocery store or whatever) it is too much trouble to stand there and audit the receipt before paying. And it would be even worse if there's no human there to immediately resolve any disputes and you're expected to go through some byzantine appeals system.

At least with a human checker you can casually keep an eye on what they're doing and if you hear a double beep or whatever ask for them to stop and check that it was scanned correctly.

The special carts at the Amazon Fresh store that I mentioned above work well in this respect because they have a screen that shows you what you've put in your cart, what it costs, and your running tab.

[kevinb1994]

The only big mall around here that isn't dead (as compared to the original mall here in South Jacksonville, the old Philips Highway Plaza) is the nearby Avenues Mall, same zip code as mine. The Town Center doesn't count as it is an outdoor mall. Plus, Gate Parkway isn't always as well maintained as the State Roads that lead you to the older mall. Not to mention the occasionally bad traffic on it. Otherwise, you'd have to slog across the river to Orange Park and its mall, and that's not an easy trip whenever the Buckman Bridge is filled with traffic.

A recent casualty of the metro area is the original St. Augustine outlet mall, the one that was indoors. Strange to have seen it sit around not really being used for much. The outdoor version across 95 doesn't count as a traditional mall.

[mgk920]

I honestly cannot remember the last time I was in a mall. It's probably been at least 7-8 years.

I have not left any money behind at Fox River Mall here in the Appleton, WI area in at least 20 years, now, too.

Mike.

[Ted$8roadFan]

I remember the Natick Mall back when it was a typical postwar suburban shopping center with middle-of-the-road stores and a food court.  Only a distant memory now. It was able to reinvent itself as a collection of upscale retailers and residences (in fact, I think the literal name is Collection), as it is located in a largely recession-resistant area with lots of affluence, which is why it continues to thrive. Reinvention appears to be the critical word for mall survival, as old stores leave (JC Penney) and new ones elect to move in (Wegmans), with other uses mixed in (condos).

Closer to me, the Arsenal Mall us technically dead, but is being reborn as Arsenal Yards with multiple mixed uses, spurred on by those priced out of or who want proximity to Cambridge. The Watertown Mall across the street is almost dead but will never die because of the RMV, Best Buy, and Target.

[SectorZ]

I remember the Natick Mall back when it was a typical postwar suburban shopping center with middle-of-the-road stores and a food court.  Only a distant memory now. It was able to reinvent itself as a collection of upscale retailers and residences (in fact, I think the literal name is Collection), as it is located in a largely recession-resistant area with lots of affluence, which is why it continues to thrive. Reinvention appears to be the critical word for mall survival, as old stores leave (JC Penney) and new ones elect to move in (Wegmans), with other uses mixed in (condos).

The Natick Mall is back to that name for whatever reason. As much as the stores are recession proof, the condos went for sale in 2007-2008, and some people bought those condos at super high prices relative to the huge price drop on the unsold ones as the last recession kicked in. I think the last unsold ones sold at about 50% of the first ones sold.

[Bruce]

I seem to remember reading in some of Amazon's pilot stores, you don't even explicitly check out. It just keeps track of what it thinks you walked out the door with, and then charges your credit card accordingly.

This is the case for their Go (convenience stores) and Go Grocery/Fresh (actual grocery stores) brands. Usually I get a notification a few minutes after leaving with a virtual receipt and a feedback button to correct mistakes. I did have a few errors in the first few uses (back when the stores had just opened for public use), but now they've become fairly streamlined.

Much prefer it to dealing with self-checkout machines that yell and scream at you for everything. Way too much pressure when there's a line of people behind you as well.

[triplemultiplex]

Those self checkout machines are the bane of my existence.  They are constantly screwing up and yelling at me to put stuff in the bagging area that I already fucking did.  They're lucky they don't sell crowbars at the grocery store because I would have put one through a goddamn self-checkout machine by now.

[JayhawkCO]

Those self checkout machines are the bane of my existence.  They are constantly screwing up and yelling at me to put stuff in the bagging area that I already fucking did.  They're lucky they don't sell crowbars at the grocery store because I would have put one through a goddamn self-checkout machine by now.

They're annoying but I refuse to stand behind someone with a $400 cart when I just need to pick up a thing of sour cream.

[Scott5114]

Self-checkouts became a lot less frustrating to me when I had one of the clerks explain the meaning of the red/green light. When the light is red it is weighing the basket and won't scan any items. Most of the time, if you don't touch the machine at all while the red light is on, it won't complain.

[JayhawkCO]

Self-checkouts became a lot less frustrating to me when I had one of the clerks explain the meaning of the red/green light. When the light is red it is weighing the basket and won't scan any items. Most of the time, if you don't touch the machine at all while the red light is on, it won't complain.

I don't know that I know what red/green light you're referring to. Might be a store specific thing?

[kphoger]

Those self checkout machines are the bane of my existence.  They are constantly screwing up and yelling at me to put stuff in the bagging area that I already fucking did.  They're lucky they don't sell crowbars at the grocery store because I would have put one through a goddamn self-checkout machine by now.

Lord help you if all you went to the store for was a single habanero pepper, and the self-checkout machine can't register 15 ounces' worth of product.