Illegal Drivers Behind High Hit-And-Run Rate In LA

[cpzilliacus]

KNX NEWSRADIO:  Report: Illegal Drivers Behind High Hit-And-Run Rate In LA

The number of hit-and-run accidents in Los Angeles is four times higher than the national average, with one in five fatal crashes involving an unlicensed driver, according to a new report.

Don Rosenberg, the founder of UnlicensedToKill.org, told KNX 1070 NEWSRADIO that an estimated 750,000 illegal immigrants live in the L.A. area and those who drive could pose "an immense threat to society" .

"The AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety reports unlicensed drivers are five times more likely to kill, they will flee the scene over 50 percent of the time, five times more likely to drive drunk,"  said Rosenberg.

[agentsteel53]

Mexicans are dirty heathens.  they don't deserve to have driver's licenses.

[NE2]

Hits-and-runs is the wrong statistic. You need to look at how shitty a driver is, not whether they run after they make a fatal error.

The guy also implies that the high number of unlicensed bad drivers is because they're Mexicans (and Canadians?), not because the statistic includes people whose licenses were taken away for drunk driving and other crap. This is why statistics need to be processed by unbiased experts with input on possible biases from both sides of the debate.

[J N Winkler]

It is also worth asking whether illegal immigrants can in fact obtain a valid California driver's license and tax and insure a car in California.  It is certainly de jure correct to say that these people should not be in the country in the first place, but when the initial immigration violation--which is civil--is used to push immigrants into a position where they cannot avoid committing criminal offenses related to operating a non-road-legal vehicle on the public highway without a valid driver's license, then the people who suffer are the licensed drivers who properly tax and insure their vehicles.

[cpzilliacus]

It is also worth asking whether illegal immigrants can in fact obtain a valid California driver's license and tax and insure a car in California.  It is certainly de jure correct to say that these people should not be in the country in the first place, but when the initial immigration violation--which is civil--is used to push immigrants into a position where they cannot avoid committing criminal offenses related to operating a non-road-legal vehicle on the public highway without a valid driver's license, then the people who suffer are the licensed drivers who properly tax and insure their vehicles.

You have just reinforced my opinion that the United States needs to desperately reform and restructure its immigration laws.

[kphoger]

Hits-and-runs is the wrong statistic. You need to look at how shitty a driver is, not whether they run after they make a fatal error.

The guy also implies that the high number of unlicensed bad drivers is because they're Mexicans (and Canadians?), not because the statistic includes people whose licenses were taken away for drunk driving and other crap. This is why statistics need to be processed by unbiased experts with input on possible biases from both sides of the debate.

Wow, I'm usually the first one on here to say that something is racist against Mexicans.  But actually, I would be hard pressed to say that the high number of unlicensed drivers in L.A. is not due to the high number of illegal immigrants in the city, or that any ethnicity other than Mexican is responsible for a large share of hit-and-run accidents.  Let's just admit that these things are true, even if the lumping everybody into one number and then using the whole number to refer to one subgroup is poor reporting.

The hit-and-run mentality may be due not only to being uninsured (and in the country illegally), but also due to having grown up in a more intimidating police environment in México, where both parties are often detained in jail until fault can be assessed.  I know a lady in México whose car was T-boned by a motorcyclist who ran a stop sign.  He told the police, 'She works for Americans', and off to jail she went–until justice eventually prevailed, that is.  So, in that instance,
[works for Americans] = [has more money] = [more worth holding responsible for the accident].
The opposite may well be true in Mexicans' minds on this side of the border; to their thinking, the following may be the mindset:
[illegal Mexican immigrant] = [scum of the earth] = [able to be abused] OR [will be kicked out of the country].

It is also worth asking whether illegal immigrants can in fact obtain a valid California driver's license and tax and insure a car in California.  It is certainly de jure correct to say that these people should not be in the country in the first place, but when the initial immigration violation--which is civil--is used to push immigrants into a position where they cannot avoid committing criminal offenses related to operating a non-road-legal vehicle on the public highway without a valid driver's license, then the people who suffer are the licensed drivers who properly tax and insure their vehicles.

You have just reinforced my opinion that the United States needs to desperately reform and restructure its immigration laws.

I have mixed feelings about the DL issue.  My first reaction is that DLs are primarily about safety, and someone's immigration status shouldn't matter.  But, on the other hand, a DL is a very valuable piece of identification, considered government-issue ID.  I don't know exactly what you can do with a state ID that you can't do without one, but it might be worth it to keep such things unavailable to those who do not live here legally.  My first reaction usually wins the argument in my head, FWIW.

[Scott5114]

In OK, we issue driver licenses and ID cards to non-resident aliens, but with a very large TEMPORARY stamp over the name and address, and an expiration date matching that of their visa. It might be worth doing to issue something like this to illegal immigrants, but then again if you know they're illegal when you're making the license, someone would ask why you're not deporting them at that point...

[corco]

I know that when I moved to Tucson my insurance nearly doubled in price, and I was told that the reason was due to a massive number of unlicensed, uninsured motorists.

[kphoger]

In OK, we issue driver licenses and ID cards to non-resident aliens, but with a very large TEMPORARY stamp over the name and address, and an expiration date matching that of their visa. It might be worth doing to issue something like this to illegal immigrants, but then again if you know they're illegal when you're making the license, someone would ask why you're not deporting them at that point...

I don't like the assumption that anyone who finds out someone is an illegal immigrant will report the person.  If I recall, Oklahoma was famous for that a while ago, as simply giving an illegal immigrant a ride was to be considered a crime (maybe I have the wrong state).  Similarly, if someone's I-9 doesn't check out in the job application process, the business is required to report the person to immigration.  This is utter bullshit.  It's like teaching your kids to be tattletales.  Why should the DMV care what someone's immigration status is?

(see how my first reaction ends up winning its argument with my mind?)

[Kacie Jane]

Why should the DMV care what someone's immigration status is?

Because, unlike an employer or someone giving someone a ride, the DMV is a government agency, issuing a document that generally implies legal residency.

[Alps]

But why not? If you investigate someone for a job opening and find out they've committed an unreported felony, wouldn't you report it?

[J N Winkler]

But why not? If you investigate someone for a job opening and find out they've committed an unreported felony, wouldn't you report it?

Being in the country illegally is not the same thing.  It attracts civil, not criminal, penalties, so it doesn't even classify as a misdemeanor or felony.  Meanwhile, the driving population as a whole benefits from the DMV deliberately licensing qualified drivers regardless of their immigration status.

It is a myth that driver's licenses prove residency.  Yes, they are one piece of evidence that can be cited to show ties to a given state, but they are not exclusive in this role, nor is that their intended function.  It is not that uncommon for drivers to have multiple licenses from different jurisdictions (I have two, for example).

[corco]

It is a myth that driver's licenses prove residency.  Yes, they are one piece of evidence that can be cited to show ties to a given state, but they are not exclusive in this role, nor is that their intended function.  It is not that uncommon for drivers to have multiple licenses from different jurisdictions (I have two, for example).

I always look at the college residency test- yes, I have an Arizona license, license plates, voter registration, utility bills, work full time in AZ, and basically everything but a 520 phone number, but the University of Arizona doesn't think I'm an Arizona resident. Same deal in Wyoming. And in Washington. (Actually, at this point there are zero states in the union for which I qualify for in-state tuition) College requirements are obviously pretty extreme, but I could go to any state, lease an apartment for a month, show that bill and my social security card, and get a license and register to vote in any state.

[SP Cook]

Criminal immigrants do not commit a "civil violation".  They commit a crime, and continue to commit a crime every second of every day.  Of course, if a wanted person, be he a crimal immigrant, a bail jumper, a deadbeat dad, or whatever, comes into the DMV, the DMV should call the cops (who are often in the same building) and the person should be arrested and returned home.   Same issue if he shows up at a school, a college, a welfare office, a court, or wherever. 

[Scott5114]

Criminal immigrants do not commit a "civil violation".  They commit a crime, and continue to commit a crime every second of every day.

You are incorrect. They commit a civil violation. You can find this in, among other places, Forbes.

[SP Cook]

You are incorrect.  Read the United States Code.  Crossing the border without authorization is a crime.

Why do you support criminals?

[corco]

Most illegals cross the border with authorization- they just never leave. That's a civil violation.
The illegals that cross in the barren desert are in the minority, but yes, they are committing a criminal act.

[J N Winkler]

Why do you support criminals?

Ignoring the tendentious framing and pretending the question is asked in good faith--because it keeps crime down, and makes it less likely that I myself will be a victim of crime.  This is why the Arizona police chiefs' association campaigned against SB 1070:  it makes illegal immigrants less likely to cooperate with the police when they are trying to investigate real crimes, as opposed to the invented one of being on the wrong side of an ugly sheet-steel fence.

[NE2]

Why do you support criminals?

Because Nixon was the bomb.

[kphoger]

But why not? If you investigate someone for a job opening and find out they've committed an unreported felony, wouldn't you report it?

Maybe, maybe not.  But I don't appreciate the government requiring me to in any but the most extreme cases (murder etc.).

Criminal immigrants do not commit a "civil violation".  They commit a crime, and continue to commit a crime every second of every day.  Of course, if a wanted person, be he a crimal immigrant, a bail jumper, a deadbeat dad, or whatever, comes into the DMV, the DMV should call the cops (who are often in the same building) and the person should be arrested and returned home.   Same issue if he shows up at a school, a college, a welfare office, a court, or wherever. 

And jaywalkers commit a crime.  So if an applicant is in a hurry and crosses on a red light to come in for the interview, and I see it happen, then I should feel compelled to call the cops?  Do you really think it should be a crime for a school teacher not to report a father picking up his child from school simply because the teacher knows he hasn't been paying child support?  Really??

[NE2]

But why not? If you investigate someone for a job opening and find out they've committed an unreported felony, wouldn't you report it?

Maybe, maybe not.  But I don't appreciate the government requiring me to in any but the most extreme cases (murder etc.).

"Sorry I was late; my normal shortcut across the construction site was blocked."
"Trespassing on a construction site is a felony. Bend over and call me daddy."

[bugo]

Illegals causing accidents is a problem here in Tulsa.  Especially in east Tulsa.  There have been multiple fatalities caused by illegal drivers in the region.

[NE2]

Women causing accidents is a problem here in Orlando. Especially in southwest Orlando.  There have been multiple fatalities caused by women in the region.

[Desert Man]

I don't drive myself, due to limitations such as autism which doesn't prohibit me from going behind the wheel. My wife is able to drive to her temp jobs while she's looking for a new permanent job at this time. I ride my bike to work about a mile from where I live and I noticed so many wild wreckless drivers on the street regardless of nationality behave like they are "on meth/crack", there's no excuse for unsafe driving habits on the roads wherever in the world. California state government attempted to give the privilege to undocumented immigrants, because a privilege like driving licenses is NOT a right.

[kphoger]

Yes, we all get it that driving is a privilege, not a right.  But the pertinent question is, 'What criteria should be used to deny someone the privilege?'.  As NE2 smartly pointed out, sex should not be a criterion.  Obviously things like race, religion, marital status, and all that other jazz shouldn't be criteria either.  OTOH, I think we could all agree that age is a reasonable criterion (no seven-year-old drivers, even if they can reach the pedals).  I simply think that someone's immigration status shouldn't be a criterion either, simply because it too is unrelated to how safely one can drive.

However, I think it would be foolish to assume that, were illegal immigrants to have valid driver's licenses and insurance coverage, they wouldn't flee the scene of an accident.  Unless it were written into the law that police officers responding to a car accident would not ask about immigration status, then they would still have something to fear.  Even with such a law, a good number of them would still flee the scene, either because they weren't aware of it or because they don't trust officers to actually abide by it.  Many would likely weight their options (flee the scene and probably have nothing happen, wait for police and risk the chance of being deported) and choose to flee.