Frustrated visitors sue National Park Service over cashless policies

[1995hoo]

I know I've asked before, but can anyone provide a link to an actual court case in which it was determined that this common "must have already received services" understanding of legal tender has been ruled on?

It goes back to English common law at least as early as Elizabeth I. Various American case law from the 1800s essentially presumes that the meaning of "legal tender" is understood. With that said, there are some cases, also mainly from the mid-1800s, that talk about the difference between a general promise to pay a particular amount versus a promise to pay a particular form of payment. The former is a debt and you can discharge it in various ways—say, if I owe you $10, I can give you a $10 bill or two $5s and I've discharged it. The latter scenario is not, according to the case law, a "debt" in the same sense. Suppose we agree that I am to pay you $10 in $2 bills. That's not a debt so much as it as an agreement to deliver a specific item (or set of items)—paying you via $10 bill doesn't satisfy my obligation regardless of whether it's "legal tender" because we contracted for something else—though of course you could excuse my non-performance and accept the $10 bill if you decided you needed the money (say, you were a real estate developer who said he needed every scrap of money he could get to post an appeal bond). The same would obviously be the case if, say, we agreed I were to pay you in Chick-Fil-A gift cards or some such.

So, under the same principle, if a store says "no cash" and offers to sell you widgets for some amount conditioned on your paying a particular amount in a form other than cash, and you accept the widgets, it's a scenario similar to the second one above. You've committed to paying some amount in a form other than cash.

[NWI_Irish96]

From National Park Service (posted April, 2023):

Death Valley National Park to move to cashless fee collection starting June 1, 2023

Last year the park collected $22,000 in cash, which cost over $40,000 to process. Cash handling costs include an armored car contract to transport cash and park rangers' time counting money and processing paperwork.

FULL ARTICLE HERE

If you look at the map of Death Valley, it's pretty remote with only two gas stations (Furnace Creek and Stovepipe Wells) providing fuel at wallet-emptying prices because of the distance the fuel trucks have to travel and how isolated the area is. Same with the armor trucks.

$22,000 divided by 365 days is $60 a day. If you call an armored truck for sixty bucks, you're either a wuss or an idiot.

I'm pretty sure it's a Federal law or at least a regulation that cash from Federal entities has to travel by armored truck regardless of amount. I know the cash we deal with does.

That said, I don't see why they'd need to run a truck every day for that small of an amount. They could easily wait until they have $1000 or so.

[jeffandnicole]

From National Park Service (posted April, 2023):

Death Valley National Park to move to cashless fee collection starting June 1, 2023

Last year the park collected $22,000 in cash, which cost over $40,000 to process. Cash handling costs include an armored car contract to transport cash and park rangers' time counting money and processing paperwork.

FULL ARTICLE HERE

If you look at the map of Death Valley, it's pretty remote with only two gas stations (Furnace Creek and Stovepipe Wells) providing fuel at wallet-emptying prices because of the distance the fuel trucks have to travel and how isolated the area is. Same with the armor trucks.

$22,000 divided by 365 days is $60 a day. If you call an armored truck for sixty bucks, you're either a wuss or an idiot.

I'm pretty sure it's a Federal law or at least a regulation that cash from Federal entities has to travel by armored truck regardless of amount. I know the cash we deal with does.

That said, I don't see why they'd need to run a truck every day for that small of an amount. They could easily wait until they have $1000 or so.

It's probably a contracted service. And the companies that offer such services are those with armored trucks.

[ZLoth]

I'm pretty sure it's a Federal law or at least a regulation that cash from Federal entities has to travel by armored truck regardless of amount. I know the cash we deal with does.

That said, I don't see why they'd need to run a truck every day for that small of an amount. They could easily wait until they have $1000 or so.

Maybe, but part of the costs has to assume the travel time for that armored truck to travel. Lets assume, for example, that the truck has to travel from Las Vegas, NV to Furnace Creek, CA which is within Death Valley National Park. That's a 123-141 mile journey each way, or a just-over two hour travel time in each direction. There are probably very customers between those two points to reduce the cost, not to mention that you have to have a full tank of fuel for the journey.

There is no federal law that requires businesses to accept cash (ref: https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm) , however the states of Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Massachusetts, Montana, New Jersey, Rhode Island, Tennessee as well as the cities of San Francisco CA, New York City NY, and Philadelphia PA all prohibit cashless businesses (ref: https://www.atmia.com/connections/regions/united-states-americas/). The problem is that if you are transacting in cash, you are at a risk for theft from either criminal or a less than dishonest employee. Most employee instructions are, when they are held up, is to just give them the cash, your life isn't worth it. But, let the business make that decision and face the consequences of choosing the payment method. Some businesses, such as non-consensual towing, may elect to only accept cash because other transactions, especially credit card, can be disputed. But, then again, we are talking about the National Parks Service which is governmental entity, not a private business.

How much cash do you carry in your wallet? Unless you are one of those Dave Ramsey types, the answer is probably "not much". I just checked my wallet, and it has two tens and four singles in there. I prefer to pay by credit or debit card. How much does it cost to open up a checking account? Usually, it's between $25 to $100, plus some identity checks. However, if you have made some bad decisions such as writing rubber checks, then you probably are showing up on a ChexSystems report that shows you to be at a risk. If, however, you are choosing to keep "off the system", then prepare to pay the price and feel the inconvience. Don't want to open up a toll account and use electronic toll collection? Prepare for that 100% surcharge for toll-by-plate.

[kalvado]

I'm pretty sure it's a Federal law or at least a regulation that cash from Federal entities has to travel by armored truck regardless of amount. I know the cash we deal with does.

That said, I don't see why they'd need to run a truck every day for that small of an amount. They could easily wait until they have $1000 or so.

Maybe, but part of the costs has to assume the travel time for that armored truck to travel. Lets assume, for example, that the truck has to travel from Las Vegas, NV to Furnace Creek, CA which is within Death Valley National Park. That's a 123-141 mile journey each way, or a just-over two hour travel time in each direction. There are probably very customers between those two points to reduce the cost, not to mention that you have to have a full tank of fuel for the journey.

There is no federal law that requires businesses to accept cash (ref: https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm) , however the states of Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Massachusetts, Montana, New Jersey, Rhode Island, Tennessee as well as the cities of San Francisco CA, New York City NY, and Philadelphia PA all prohibit cashless businesses (ref: https://www.atmia.com/connections/regions/united-states-americas/). The problem is that if you are transacting in cash, you are at a risk for theft from either criminal or a less than dishonest employee. Most employee instructions are, when they are held up, is to just give them the cash, your life isn't worth it. But, let the business make that decision and face the consequences of choosing the payment method. Some businesses, such as non-consensual towing, may elect to only accept cash because other transactions, especially credit card, can be disputed. But, then again, we are talking about the National Parks Service which is governmental entity, not a private business.

How much cash do you carry in your wallet? Unless you are one of those Dave Ramsey types, the answer is probably "not much". I just checked my wallet, and it has two tens and four singles in there. I prefer to pay by credit or debit card. How much does it cost to open up a checking account? Usually, it's between $25 to $100, plus some identity checks. However, if you have made some bad decisions such as writing rubber checks, then you probably are showing up on a ChexSystems report that shows you to be at a risk. If, however, you are choosing to keep "off the system", then prepare to pay the price and feel the inconvience. Don't want to open up a toll account and use electronic toll collection? Prepare for that 100% surcharge for toll-by-plate.

And you should always love your big brother for helping you with all those things.

[NE2]

I wonder if blind customers are able to eat for free in cashless establishments, since they can't read the sign that says no cash.

[JayhawkCO]

We must hear more about these "delinquent 20's" of Jayhawk's.

Long story short. Was waiting tables/bartending. I thought it was more fun to go out drinking, out with girls, travelling the world, etc. than paying taxes, paying rent, etc. Got evicted and they were looking for some back rent and so I closed my bank account so as not to have an account to pull cash from. Not my proudest moment, but now my credit score is in the 800's so I don't mind telling my cautionary tales. 

[NWI_Irish96]

As more and more places go cashless, perhaps it's time to revisit currency reform.

The US wastes a lot of money producing currency it doesn't need.

Due to inflation, one cent pieces and one dollar bills should have already been obsolete.

Pennies can be eliminated by rounding transactions to the nearest five cents. Canada did this in 2012.

Dollar bills can just be eliminated by making the dollar coin the standard. Production of $2 bills can also be increased to help compensate.

Additionally, dimes, half dollars, $10 bills and $50 bills aren't really necessary.

You can make any combination from $0.05 to $99.95 by having 4x$20, 3x$5, 2x$2, 1x$1, 3x$0.25 and 4x$0.05, which is 9 bills and 8 coins. Not an undue burden for anybody to carry.

[bandit957]

Weren't they talking about making pennies out of tin instead of copper to save money?

[hotdogPi]

Canada switched their coins to steel. This change occurred for more than just the penny, and it happened before the penny was eliminated.

Aluminum is also an option, similar to the 1 yen coin. However, I would support getting rid of the penny entirely and making the nickel aluminum.

[1995hoo]

Weren't they talking about making pennies out of tin instead of copper to save money?

The US one-cent coin has been made of 97.5 percent zinc and 2.5 percent copper since 1982.


Regarding currency reform more generally, I like the idea of getting rid of the $1 bill, though I can't help but wonder how much of an obstacle the vending machine industry presents, given how much they invested in installing those dollar-bill acceptors. I'm not sure I've ever encountered a vending machine that accepts $2s, though certainly I've encountered some that accept $5s.

[hotdogPi]

Most vending machines accept $1 coins. Eliminating a denomination wouldn't cause a problem. It's adding a new one that would, e.g. a $2 coin or making a newer 50¢ coin design not huge.

In fact, the alloy of the current $1 coin was specifically chosen so that it would be accepted in a machine looking for Susan B. Anthony dollars.

[triplemultiplex]

Does cash only at National Parks also include that machine they all have in the visitors center that squishes a penny into souvenir? 

[JayhawkCO]

Does cash only at National Parks also include that machine they all have in the visitors center that squishes a penny into souvenir? 

I have some cancelled credit cards I could use instead.

[hobsini2]

We must hear more about these "delinquent 20's" of Jayhawk's.

I hope it involves a couple animals, drunkenness and a stripper named Candy. Those are the fun stories.

[Scott5114]

Additionally, dimes, half dollars, $10 bills and $50 bills aren't really necessary.

You can make any combination from $0.05 to $99.95 by having 4x$20, 3x$5, 2x$2, 1x$1, 3x$0.25 and 4x$0.05, which is 9 bills and 8 coins. Not an undue burden for anybody to carry.

The last casino I worked for decided they didn't need dimes or $10s. It was a fucking mess. You need three rolls of nickels to make up for one roll of dimes, which means that you either need to find a place to keep all those nickels, or else have the window close every 10-20 customers while you get more nickels. Meanwhile the production of the $5 is low enough that the bills get beat all to hell in circulation without being replaced at a high enough rate, so finding a $5 bill that could actually be used in a slot machine was a challenge.

I figured out the machine we got our change out of would, despite not being stocked with dimes and not dispensing any dimes in the starting bank, return any dimes that had been deposited by previous cashiers. And there were usually enough people cashing in random mixed change that there was at least $5 worth of dimes available at the start of my shift. So I would get my starting bank, get signed into the window, and then pull out dimes. I couldn't do that with the $10s because any previously-deposited $10s got kicked into the machine's overflow box, where they were only accessible to someone with a key.

I do agree that the $50 is kind of a useless denomination. It's large enough that it gets the same scrutiny and acceptance problems (businesses not wanting to keep enough change to break it) that the $100 does, while not actually being large enough to justify the hassle of dealing with it.

[1995hoo]

One thing about the current generation of US paper currency is that the addition of distinct color to the different bills has helped quite a bit when you do use a $50. Back when the Treasury started redesigning them in the 1990s, introducing the so-called "large portrait notes," the $20 and the $50 apparently looked similar enough at a quick glance—see below—that several times I encountered cashiers trying to give me change based on a $20 when I used a $50 (which caused me to start saying, "That's out of $50" whenever I used a $50). That has never happened to me with the current-generation currency. (Then you had the time prior to the mid-1990s redesign when we were getting ready to leave on a family vacation and my father sent me to McDonald's to buy us all breakfast and gave me a $50. The cashier didn't think it was real money and I had to insist, adamantly and very vocally, that she call the manager.)

[hotdogPi]

My grocery store workplace in 2019 had a customer pay for about $140-160 worth of food with an old (uncolored) $20 and three regular $20s. Both the customer and the cashier thought the uncolored $20 was a $100 (since $100s last long enough that a greater percentage of $100s are old-style compared to $20s). It was accepted, and only after the customer was gone did the cashier realize he wasn't given enough money.

[oscar]

I've occasionally used a new-style $50 bill at a McDonald's drive-through. Manager got called to check that the bill was valid, but that process only added a few seconds to my order.

[ZLoth]

Regarding currency reform more generally, I like the idea of getting rid of the $1 bill, though I can't help but wonder how much of an obstacle the vending machine industry presents, given how much they invested in installing those dollar-bill acceptors. I'm not sure I've ever encountered a vending machine that accepts $2s, though certainly I've encountered some that accept $5s.

I'm kinda surprised at the life span of a $1 bill per https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/how-long-is-the-life-span-of-us-paper-money.htm . I thought it would be measured in months rather than 6.6 years. Having said that, while coins are more expensive than bills to produce, they also last much longer (30 years and longer).

[Rothman]

Brings to mind wheresgeorge.com, which is apparently still around and quite active.

[kkt]

Weren't they talking about making pennies out of tin instead of copper to save money?

Pennies haven't been made out of copper for 40 years.  In 1982 they switched to zinc center with copper plating.  Cut one in half with bolt cutters if you want.  Most of the remaining copper pennies disappeared within a year or two - forcing more zinc pennies to be minted.

They should have discontinued pennies in 1982.

[LilianaUwU]

Having said that, while coins are more expensive than bills to produce, they also last much longer (30 years and longer).

Can confirm. While the original Canadian loonie was released in 1987, I can still find original examples in my change in the rare occasion I get cash. Meanwhile, bills from the Canadian Journey series (2001-2011, before the introduction of plastic bills) pretty much disappeared from circulation now.

[Scott5114]

Regarding currency reform more generally, I like the idea of getting rid of the $1 bill, though I can't help but wonder how much of an obstacle the vending machine industry presents, given how much they invested in installing those dollar-bill acceptors. I'm not sure I've ever encountered a vending machine that accepts $2s, though certainly I've encountered some that accept $5s.

I'm kinda surprised at the life span of a $1 bill per https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/how-long-is-the-life-span-of-us-paper-money.htm . I thought it would be measured in months rather than 6.6 years. Having said that, while coins are more expensive than bills to produce, they also last much longer (30 years and longer).

The lifespan of a $1 bill was months back in the 90s, but two things happened:
1) people use less cash now, so it wears out less quickly, and
2) Someone at the Fed realized that the scanners that they use to detect when bills are damaged were sending all bills that were fed into the machine upside down to the shred pile, since they only had the good bill image to compare to in one orientation. Oops!

[freebrickproductions]

Regarding currency reform more generally, I like the idea of getting rid of the $1 bill, though I can't help but wonder how much of an obstacle the vending machine industry presents, given how much they invested in installing those dollar-bill acceptors. I'm not sure I've ever encountered a vending machine that accepts $2s, though certainly I've encountered some that accept $5s.

I'm kinda surprised at the life span of a $1 bill per https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/how-long-is-the-life-span-of-us-paper-money.htm . I thought it would be measured in months rather than 6.6 years. Having said that, while coins are more expensive than bills to produce, they also last much longer (30 years and longer).

The lifespan of a $1 bill was months back in the 90s, but two things happened:
1) people use less cash now, so it wears out less quickly, and
2) Someone at the Fed realized that the scanners that they use to detect when bills are damaged were sending all bills that were fed into the machine upside down to the shred pile, since they only had the good bill image to compare to in one orientation. Oops!

And even when cash is used, $1 ain't gonna be used for much more than just making-up the amount the larger bills don't already cover and/or vending machines.