Unnecessary control cities

[Zzonkmiles]

I-77 north of Statesville in NC uses Elkin. I think Charleston WV or even Roanoke VA (via I-81) would be more appropriate than Elkin.

EDIT:  I would also replace Lake City on I-10 west of Jacksonville in Florida with Tallahassee. I suspect drivers merging onto I-10 from I-95 would be far more interested in Tallahassee than Lake City.

[amroad17]

I-77 north of Statesville in NC uses Elkin. I think Charleston WV or even Roanoke VA (via I-81) would be more appropriate than Elkin.

EDIT:  I would also replace Lake City on I-10 west of Jacksonville in Florida with Tallahassee. I suspect drivers merging onto I-10 from I-95 would be far more interested in Tallahassee than Lake City.

^ I agree with listing Tallahassee instead of Lake City--even though Lake City is the nearest city to the I-10/I-75 interchange.  This is why Lake City is the control point instead of Tallahassee, although I would use Tallahassee.

A more appropriate control point for I-77 north of Statesville would be Wytheville.  Charleston is a bit "too far" and Roanoke isn't on I-77's path--but neither is Memphis on I-57's path.  Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing both Charleston and Roanoke listed.  It would be listed like this in Illinois, more than likely.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         I have always been a proponent of having larger cities on BGS's at major interchanges.  For example, I would use New York and Cleveland at the major interchanges (I-79, I-99/US 220, US 15, I-180, I-81, and PA 33) along I-80 instead of the smaller towns currently shown.  Keep the current ones for the other interchanges along I-80 except for I-380.  Have I-80 EAST show New York and keep Hazleton on I-80 WEST.

[CapeCodder]

Is it common to list (non-roadway accessible) islands as a control city?

I'm more curious as towards why this signage completely ignores listing MA 28; 28 northbound is accessible via Exit 3 and 28 southbound becomes the through-highway just south of this interchange.

While we're in that general area US 6 uses Boston as a control city (at least here in Hyannis) as well as Providence. 6 has to go through New Bedford and Fall River before it even hits Providence, so why can't MASSDOT use NB and Fall River as control cities? As for Boston, you can get to it from the Cape on Route 3.

On "The Islands" in that sign, it must be old because you have to go through Hyannis to get to Nantucket. The days of going through Woods Hole to get to Nantucket are well over.

[PHLBOS]

On "The Islands" in that sign, it must be old because you have to go through Hyannis to get to Nantucket. The days of going through Woods Hole to get to Nantucket are well over.

The Islands can also include Martha's Vineyard as well; which is only a short ferry ride from Woods Hole compared to Hyannis.

[roadman65]

I like Bear Mountain and Delaware Water Gap in the NYC area. 

Although on I-80 west of its east terminus, what could you really use anyhow?  No cities until Youngstown, OH that is well over 400 miles from Teaneck.  Then again it could be Stroudsburg from the NJ Turnpike (and Cleveland could be also used from there only) up till Stroudsburg. Then Hazleton (because of I-81) and then Williamsport ( being its not on there so is Dayton not on I-70 yet now signed from Columbus and Indy, and so its Huntsville in both AL and TN for I-65 that is also not on it) up until its reached and then Youngstown as its close enough to warrant a distant city.

Then on I-80 E Bound it would be Williamsport, Hazleton, Stroudsburg, and New York.

Also in NJ are not the mileage signs on the interstates have unnecessary control cities?  They do not use the next exit, sequential town with its next major city, but three points listed along the way until each first point is reached.  Then comes the next sign advancing number two to one, and bringing in a new number two as the final point is usually a terminus of the signed route or state line community at roads leaving NJ, or a major NJ City like Newark, Trenton, and Somerville.   

On I-78 they use Bedminster where they think that everyone knows its where I-287 junctions, but being its not signed anywhere on guides except at where the interstate enters the township, its not that noticeable.  Using I-287 instead would be more benificial than that. 

Plus NJ should use also the next town and large city concept. I am not going to say next exit as the exits are too dense on many NJ Freeways.  I-80 from the Gap should use Netcong, Paterson, and New York.  A sign in the middle of Columbia and Netcong should update that info while east of Netcong it should have signs post NJ 10 exit for Denville, Paterson and New York; and another for it after Route 15.  Then from there I-287, Paterson, and New York and so on.

NJ did try to implement a more standard system like other states hence the Columbia 7, and Del. Water Gap 11 sign near Hope as Columbia is the next exit and the Gap is the control point.  However, over the years NJDOT gave up on that as well as the NJ Turnpike with the every 10 miles for New York on the ten that used to be for many years after the road opened.

[amroad17]

I have never liked Delaware Water Gap as a "control city."  It should be Stroudsburg from I-287 on.

These are my opinions on how I would sign control cities on I-80 in New Jersey and Pennsylvania...

    I-80 west starting from I-95: Paterson, Netcong, Stroudsburg, Hazleton, Williamsport, Sharon, Youngstown.
    I-80 east starting from Youngstown: New York (in OH), DuBois, Williamsport, Hazleton, Stroudsburg, Netcong, Paterson.

These would be for the non-major interchanges along I-80.  The major interchanges in Pennsylvania I posted above would have New York and Cleveland.  The I-287 interchange in Parsippany would have New York and Stroudsburg and no Delaware Water Gap!

Some of the above could be double listed on pull-throughs, such as Netcong/Stroudsburg, Sharon/Youngstown, and Netcong/Paterson.

Mileage signs should reflect the control cities mentioned above--even if there needs to be a three-line post interchange mileage sign.
Examples:  Clarion         43                 Brookville    15
                 Dubois         79                 Clarion        34
                 New York    367                 Sharon        99

Not all mileage signs need to be changed--just a few.  It would cost too much.  In fact, this whole endeavor would cost too much.    I just believe that along I-80 in Pennsylvania and, to a smaller extent, New Jersey should have fewer control cities on their signs.  Don't need every small town listed.

[roadman65]

NJ needs better mileage signs.  You get the Netcon-Denville-Paterson sign east of NJ 94 which is all right, but give another after CR 521 and CR 517.  Then east of US 206 it should be like it is, but another should be after NJ 15.  Then after US 46 at Denville it should be I-287-Paterson- New York followed by east of I-287 Paterson-Hackensack-New York with more signs east of NJ 23 to support that.

East of Paterson, its hard to do a three point so east of the GSP it should be the last mileage sign for Hackensack-New York.

West it should be like this at the beginning.  Paterson-Denville-Stoudsburg.  Heck a sign like along I-70 in MD could be such as Chicago-Des Moines-Salt Lake- San Fransisco could be erected somewhere between I-95 and NJ 17.  West of NJ 19 it should be I-287-Denville- Stroudsburg.  Then west of NJ 23 the same followed next with Denville-Netcong- Stroudsburg at US 202.  After US 202 it should be Netcong-Columbia-Stroudsburg both at US 46 and NJ 15,  Then after Netcong it should be Columbia-Stroudsburg at all interchanges in between US 206 and Columbia.  At NJ 94 it should have Stroudsburg- Hazleton as the last NJ mileage sign.

[amroad17]

^ I totally agree with you on this.  In fact, I believe New Jersey needs more post interchange mileage signs throughout the state.  I-287 could use a few (after the I-80 interchange, the NJ 24 interchange, I-78, south of US 202/206, west of the NJ Turnpike, and south of the Thruway), I-78's could be improved, and the NJ Turnpike definitely needs them.

The signs should be those that are seen on freeways instead of those looking like they are on regular state highways.

[roadman65]

Even Supplemental signs in NJ are like they belong on the regular non freeways.

Anyway, Secaucus now is being used on The Parkway in NJ for Exit 153A.  NYC is right behind the Hudson County Town and the largest city in the US, and the NJTA comes up with that one.  Ugghhhh!  Anyhow, at least they decided on Wayne for NJ 3 West, although Little Falls is used along NJ 23 to the same intersection.

Then Paramus now is used in East Orange on the pull through  on N Bound  GSP at I-280.  Another useless control destination.

[amroad17]

The NJTP should restore giving the distance to New York on the tens like they did before along with Camden, Trenton, Elizabeth, and maybe Fort Lee.  The only one I ever saw when I drove for a trucking company was one that had New York 90 miles away.  They also should give the distances to Elizabeth, Trenton, Camden, Wilmington, and maybe Baltimore southbound from New York.

[roadman65]

The NJTP should restore giving the distance to New York on the tens like they did before along with Camden, Trenton, Elizabeth, and maybe Fort Lee.  The only one I ever saw when I drove for a trucking company was one that had New York 90 miles away.  They also should give the distances to Elizabeth, Trenton, Camden, Wilmington, and maybe Baltimore southbound from New York.

Tried that one.  William Buckley of the NJTA told me the demands are no longer there for mileage signs so any one you see is leftover from the past.

It should really be that on the tens and for the smaller cities use it post interchange  south of Exit 13.  North of 13 its hard to with interchanges so densely spaced, but entering NJ from NY should have Newark, Trenton, and Camden at least someplace south of NJ 4 in the cut of Bergen Hill.  On the Western Spur south of the 18W Plaza one should be for Trenton, Camden, and Wilmington.

[amroad17]

So, apparently, the NJTA believes every city is an unnecessary control city on the NJTP?

[J Route Z]

So, apparently, the NJTA believes every city is an unnecessary control city on the NJTP?

Basically. This has been discussed before, but the newer signs on the Turnpike southbound use Wilmington, Trenton, Camden. I believe this should have been changed to "Baltimore" or just simply Delaware since it technically does not go to Wilmington.

[Mr. ENC]

In NC on US 264, where it meets I-95 in Wilson, the EB and WB lanes use Benson as a control city disregarding the much bigger Smithfield.

[kphoger]

Baghdad, as signed in Syria.  A fat lot of good that control city will do you these days!

[dvferyance]

I think Oregon goes overboard with them on I-5 south. I get Salem and Eugene and I am ok with Medford but come on Roseburg, Grants Pass and Ashland? Then once you get past that and close to the end near California they don't use Sacramento or even Redding it's Yreka the first town you come to in California that nobody has ever heard of.

[kkt]

Grant's Pass is significant because 199 splits off there for the coast.
Ashland has the Oregon Shakespeare Festival that attracts large numbers of visitors.
Yreka is, umm, good for word games?

[PHLBOS]

So, apparently, the NJTA believes every city is an unnecessary control city on the NJTP?

Basically. This has been discussed before, but the newer signs on the Turnpike southbound use Wilmington, Trenton, Camden. I believe this should have been changed to "Baltimore" or just simply Delaware since it technically does not go to Wilmington.

Some signs used to list Delaware but such is now afoul w/FHWA/MUTCD (the use of state names as control city/destinations are no longer allowed). 

If one's going to not consider Wilmington as an NJTP control city because it technically doesn't go to Wilmington; a similar argument can be made for not using New York or New York City as a listed northbound NJTP destination for the same exact reason.

[roadman]

Cross-posted from another thread:

New England! The city where the Patriots play! /s

Which got me thinking.  Why Wilkes-Barre and not Scranton?  As Scranton is the I-81/I-84 junction, it would make more sense to use that as the control city.
[/quote]

[hbelkins]

Cross-posted from another thread:

New England! The city where the Patriots play! /s

Which got me thinking.  Why Wilkes-Barre and not Scranton?  As Scranton is the I-81/I-84 junction, it would make more sense to use that as the control city.

[/quote]

That sign's new from the last time I was through there. How long has it been up? And is it the first mention of NYC since Youngstown?

[briantroutman]

Which got me thinking.  Why Wilkes-Barre and not Scranton?  As Scranton is the I-81/I-84 junction, it would make more sense to use that as the control city.

(Also cross-posted from that thread:)

Population-wise, Scranton is nearly twice the size of Wilkes-Barre (77,000 vs. 40,000), although the cluster of municipalities that makes up greater Wilkes-Barre is even more fragmented (W-B City vs. W-B Township, plus Kingston, Forty-Fort, etc.) than that of greater Scranton, so the practical gap in city size is perhaps not as great.

But I understand that there is a certain us vs. them dynamic at work–enough that Wilkes-Barre resident and former (and disgraced) Congressman Dan Flood fought relentlessly to get the airport designated as "Wilkes-Barre/Scranton"  and not "Scranton/Wilkes-Barre" .

I grew up in Williamsport, where the local TV network affiliates are all translators of Scranton/Wilkes-Barre stations (with token coverage of Central PA), and I always thought of the two cities as a unit. But my wife, who's a native of Wilkes-Barre, says that the two cities are different worlds that rarely intermix. She grew up reading W-B newspapers, listening to W-B radio, and shopping at W-B stores–never going to Scranton.

That brings up the question of "twin city"  pairs in general. Heading east out of Abilene on I-20, does TxDOT sign the larger Dallas or the smaller Fort Worth that you encounter first? Same thing on I-94 heading west out of Wisconsin: St. Paul or Minneapolis? Perhaps the better question is: How should these pairs be signed?

In the case of I-81, I believe PennDOT signs whichever you hit first–Wilkes-Barre northbound and Scranton southbound.

That sign's new from the last time I was through there. How long has it been up? And is it the first mention of NYC since Youngstown?

I just noticed the sign on a visit to PA last weekend, and I don't recall seeing the sign on my Christmas visit home, so I suspect it went up after the first of the year. As far as I know, it's the first mention of New York eastbound motorists get after Youngstown and the last they'll see until they're well into New Jersey.

[Jmiles32]

Cross-posted from another thread:

New England! The city where the Patriots play! /s

Which got me thinking.  Why Wilkes-Barre and not Scranton?  As Scranton is the I-81/I-84 junction, it would make more sense to use that as the control city.

Also bizarre is that I-80 doesn't go anywhere near Hazleton and only has one far away exit for it. The much more direct route would be I-81 south of the interchange which goes much closer to and has multiple exits for Hazleton. Insted the control city for I-81 south is Harrisburg. I will say though I like how there are 2 control control cities listed, one local, and one more populated, but farther away which I think is less confusing for drivers.

[bassoon1986]

Which got me thinking.  Why Wilkes-Barre and not Scranton?  As Scranton is the I-81/I-84 junction, it would make more sense to use that as the control city.

(Also cross-posted from that thread:)

That brings up the question of "twin city"  pairs in general. Heading east out of Abilene on I-20, does TxDOT sign the larger Dallas or the smaller Fort Worth that you encounter first? Same thing on I-94 heading west out of Wisconsin: St. Paul or Minneapolis? Perhaps the better question is: How should these pairs be signed?

In the case of I-81, I believe PennDOT signs whichever you hit first–Wilkes-Barre northbound and Scranton southbound.

In Texas, from the west Fort Worth is used. At the 10/20 split east of El Paso, the BGS says I-20 East, Ft Worth and Dallas below. Fort Worth and Abilene are used interchangeably on guide signs and then Ft. Worth alone east of Abilene. At the I-20/30 split, Fort Worth is shown on I-30 and Dallas is on the I-20 pull through.

I think this set up is fine. List the city you come to first, even if it's the smaller of the twins.

[tckma]

Yreka is, umm, good for word games?

Zzyzx is better for word games, I think.

[GaryV]

Yreka is, umm, good for word games?

Zzyzx is better for word games, I think.

Too bad Scrabble has only 1 Z.