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AZ 95S/Former AZ 172 over Parker Dam

Started by Max Rockatansky, September 23, 2018, 06:15:18 PM

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Max Rockatansky

Put together a short article on Surewhynotnow regarding the former alignment of AZ 172 and the current AZ 95S route over Parker Dam:

http://surewhynotnow.blogspot.com/2018/09/arizona-state-route-95s-along-former-az.html


sparker

^^^^^^^^^
Interesting to see the '61 AZ map that shows AZ 164 over the future US 180 between Flagstaff and AZ 64; also it shows AZ 79 as a 2-lane road on the south end of the new-terrain I-17 corridor near Sedona.  The AZ 164 designation must not have been posted for very long; IIRC US 180 was extended to Grand Canyon in 1962. 

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: sparker on September 24, 2018, 01:28:51 AM
^^^^^^^^^
Interesting to see the '61 AZ map that shows AZ 164 over the future US 180 between Flagstaff and AZ 64; also it shows AZ 79 as a 2-lane road on the south end of the new-terrain I-17 corridor near Sedona.  The AZ 164 designation must not have been posted for very long; IIRC US 180 was extended to Grand Canyon in 1962.

I believe AZ 164 was a brand new route in 1960 if memory serves correctly.  The AZ 79 number has bounced around a lot historically, there has three designations.  The current 79 ought to be numbered as a second AZ 80 or 89 IMO. 

sparker

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 24, 2018, 07:54:29 AM
Quote from: sparker on September 24, 2018, 01:28:51 AM
^^^^^^^^^
Interesting to see the '61 AZ map that shows AZ 164 over the future US 180 between Flagstaff and AZ 64; also it shows AZ 79 as a 2-lane road on the south end of the new-terrain I-17 corridor near Sedona.  The AZ 164 designation must not have been posted for very long; IIRC US 180 was extended to Grand Canyon in 1962.

I believe AZ 164 was a brand new route in 1960 if memory serves correctly.  The AZ 79 number has bounced around a lot historically, there has three designations.  The current 79 ought to be numbered as a second AZ 80 or 89 IMO. 

The current AZ 79 (apparently the site of a horrific crash last week) only exists over part of the old US 80/89 route between Tucson and Florence Jct., the much longer AZ 77 occupies the southern stretch into metro Tucson.  As long as AZ 77 is designated as it is, IMO AZ 79 (bandied around as it has been) is a reasonable number for the northern section of that former U.S. route. 

Generally, I'm not in favor of duplicate numbering at any level when an alternate number is available, as was the case here.  If they want to honor US 80 and/or US 89, let them erect historical signage in addition to the actual current designation. 

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: sparker on September 24, 2018, 03:04:15 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 24, 2018, 07:54:29 AM
Quote from: sparker on September 24, 2018, 01:28:51 AM
^^^^^^^^^
Interesting to see the '61 AZ map that shows AZ 164 over the future US 180 between Flagstaff and AZ 64; also it shows AZ 79 as a 2-lane road on the south end of the new-terrain I-17 corridor near Sedona.  The AZ 164 designation must not have been posted for very long; IIRC US 180 was extended to Grand Canyon in 1962.

I believe AZ 164 was a brand new route in 1960 if memory serves correctly.  The AZ 79 number has bounced around a lot historically, there has three designations.  The current 79 ought to be numbered as a second AZ 80 or 89 IMO. 

The current AZ 79 (apparently the site of a horrific crash last week) only exists over part of the old US 80/89 route between Tucson and Florence Jct., the much longer AZ 77 occupies the southern stretch into metro Tucson.  As long as AZ 77 is designated as it is, IMO AZ 79 (bandied around as it has been) is a reasonable number for the northern section of that former U.S. route. 

Generally, I'm not in favor of duplicate numbering at any level when an alternate number is available, as was the case here.  If they want to honor US 80 and/or US 89, let them erect historical signage in addition to the actual current designation.

Actually if you check out tbe Historic 707 thread ADOT is doing just that on 79 with US 80 signage.  The project is to the same scale that 66 Historic Signage was. 

I'd have to check the time frames but US 89A and US 80 being decommissioned were somewhat close.  My personal opinion is that US 89 should end in Wickenburg at US 93 and not US 180 in Flagstaff.  I could see returning 79 to its original routing on AZ 89A. 

sparker

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 24, 2018, 03:42:09 PM
Quote from: sparker on September 24, 2018, 03:04:15 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 24, 2018, 07:54:29 AM
Quote from: sparker on September 24, 2018, 01:28:51 AM
^^^^^^^^^
Interesting to see the '61 AZ map that shows AZ 164 over the future US 180 between Flagstaff and AZ 64; also it shows AZ 79 as a 2-lane road on the south end of the new-terrain I-17 corridor near Sedona.  The AZ 164 designation must not have been posted for very long; IIRC US 180 was extended to Grand Canyon in 1962.

I believe AZ 164 was a brand new route in 1960 if memory serves correctly.  The AZ 79 number has bounced around a lot historically, there has three designations.  The current 79 ought to be numbered as a second AZ 80 or 89 IMO. 

The current AZ 79 (apparently the site of a horrific crash last week) only exists over part of the old US 80/89 route between Tucson and Florence Jct., the much longer AZ 77 occupies the southern stretch into metro Tucson.  As long as AZ 77 is designated as it is, IMO AZ 79 (bandied around as it has been) is a reasonable number for the northern section of that former U.S. route. 

Generally, I'm not in favor of duplicate numbering at any level when an alternate number is available, as was the case here.  If they want to honor US 80 and/or US 89, let them erect historical signage in addition to the actual current designation.

Actually if you check out tbe Historic 707 thread ADOT is doing just that on 79 with US 80 signage.  The project is to the same scale that 66 Historic Signage was. 

I'd have to check the time frames but US 89A and US 80 being decommissioned were somewhat close.  My personal opinion is that US 89 should end in Wickenburg at US 93 and not US 180 in Flagstaff.  I could see returning 79 to its original routing on AZ 89A. 

Actually, the entire original AZ 79 became part of the present I-17 alignment; 79 was simply the pre-Interstate state-designated "shortcut", along with the N-S part of AZ 69 (the original Black Canyon Highway number) from Phoenix to Flagstaff.  When the final "cut" of the Interstate System was finalized/published in '58, the N-S facility in AZ, which originally ran through Wickenburg, was moved to that shortcut, where it is today (at that time I-10 was moved from an alignment along old US 60/70 to the current "straightline" passing near Tonopah).

Max Rockatansky

^^^

What you're referring to was the second AZ 79, the first predated it significantly.  I want to say that AZ 79 on the former US 89A/AZ 89A corridor from circa 1934/35 until 1941 when it became a US Route.  What's interesting is that the first AZ 79 is a numbering violation for State Routes at the time and should have been in either 60s or 80s.  These maps below are from 1935:





Apparently the second AZ 79 was a 1950s creation running from AZ 69 Cordes Junction to Flagstaff.  You can see the second AZ 79 appear between 1951 and 1956 by comparing the two maps below.  On the second map from 1956 the route of the second AZ 79 is shown being finished to Camp Verde and taking a temporary alignment on AZ 279.

https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~212033~5500190:Shell-Highway-Map-of-Arizona-and-Ne?sort=Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No&qvq=q:arizona%20highway;sort:Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No;lc:RUMSEY~8~1&mi=7&trs=12

https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~212030~5500188:Shell-Highway-Map-of-Arizona-?sort=Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No&qvq=q:arizona%20highway;sort:Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No;lc:RUMSEY~8~1&mi=5&trs=12

On the 1961 State Highway Map the second AZ 79 shows complete between AZ 69 and Flagstaff:




sparker

^^^^^^^^
Correct; I was referring to the '50's iteration of AZ 79, not the '30's version down what's now AZ 89A.  Question: since your 1934-era map scans didn't extend far enough east for this -- was there a commissioned state route along the current I-17/AZ 69 corridor from Phoenix to Prescott during that era, or did it come along later?  Obviously it wasn't called AZ 69, since that was being used on what's now US 93 northwest of Kingman. 

Zonie

A numbered route does not appear in 1934.

https://www.aaroads.com/maps/1934-az.php

However, this 1939 map lists AZ 69 on a Phoenix/Prescott route.

https://www.aaroads.com/maps/1939-az.php

sparker

^^^^^^^^
Very informative -- looks like the only completely paved road across AZ in '34 used a combination of US 80, AZ 84, and AZ 87 -- otherwise you got dirt or gravel.  They certainly accomplished a lot in Depression years re getting their roads built & paved.  Surprised US 66 wasn't farther along in development in '34; more emphasis seemed to be on the south end of the state.  That might have been a hangover from RR development; while the Santa Fe main line along US 66 was essentially a "pass through" regarding AZ (with the exception of tourist service to the Grand Canyon); Southern Pacific, which dominated the southern portion of the state, ran through the Gila River valley between Gila Bend and Yuma, where there was a significant agricultural presence, particularly in fruits and vegetables; no surprise there was follow-through in regards to road paving.

Max Rockatansky

Looks like AZ 79 was actually one of the original 1927 State Routes:

https://www.aaroads.com/maps/1927-az.php

Incidentally I wasn't even aware AAroads had a map library, this will prove infinitely useful in the future.

Max Rockatansky

Check out this map from 1926 showing the original planned US Routes:

https://www.aaroads.com/maps/1926-az.php

Weird seeing US 60 on the US 66 corridor.  Interesting to see that AZ 88 was planned as AZ 66.  I had heard that it was planned as AZ 66 in the past but never seen any documentation to support it until now.

707

Yeah. It's interesting to note US 80's proposed route never really changed through Arizona. I understand why US 89 was multiplexed with it all the way to Nogales, but honestly have always thought that was an unneeded multiplex. I think they should've kept the proposed Nogales Route as US 380 and ended US 89 at Grand Avenue and Van Buren Street in Phoenix, given the Phoenix to Tucson corridor via Florence was originally meant to only be US 80.

sparker

Quote from: 707 on September 28, 2018, 12:58:54 AM
Yeah. It's interesting to note US 80's proposed route never really changed through Arizona. I understand why US 89 was multiplexed with it all the way to Nogales, but honestly have always thought that was an unneeded multiplex. I think they should've kept the proposed Nogales Route as US 380 and ended US 89 at Grand Avenue and Van Buren Street in Phoenix, given the Phoenix to Tucson corridor via Florence was originally meant to only be US 80.

I always thought that US 80 should have turned south in Mesa along AZ 87 to AZ 84, then on to Tucson and beyond.  A 4-route multiplex from Phoenix to Florence Jct. was, at least to my mind, something that could have been avoided given the alternate routes through the Casa Grande area.  That being said, looking at the historical maps seemed to indicate that since US 80 was fully paved well before any other interregional arterial, that AZDOT early on decided to stick as many routes as possible along the already-paved facility; they obviously had no aversion to multiplexing.  Since it appears that the other Phoenix-Tucson route combinations were paved quite a bit later than US 80 and its co-designates, when the paving of state routes was finally a fait accompli, it was probably decided not to rock the boat and simply leave the U.S. routes where they were -- hence the multiplex that lasted well into the '70's, even after I-10 was constructed.   

707

Quote from: sparker on September 28, 2018, 01:48:32 AM
Quote from: 707 on September 28, 2018, 12:58:54 AM
Yeah. It's interesting to note US 80's proposed route never really changed through Arizona. I understand why US 89 was multiplexed with it all the way to Nogales, but honestly have always thought that was an unneeded multiplex. I think they should've kept the proposed Nogales Route as US 380 and ended US 89 at Grand Avenue and Van Buren Street in Phoenix, given the Phoenix to Tucson corridor via Florence was originally meant to only be US 80.

I always thought that US 80 should have turned south in Mesa along AZ 87 to AZ 84, then on to Tucson and beyond.  A 4-route multiplex from Phoenix to Florence Jct. was, at least to my mind, something that could have been avoided given the alternate routes through the Casa Grande area.  That being said, looking at the historical maps seemed to indicate that since US 80 was fully paved well before any other interregional arterial, that AZDOT early on decided to stick as many routes as possible along the already-paved facility; they obviously had no aversion to multiplexing.  Since it appears that the other Phoenix-Tucson route combinations were paved quite a bit later than US 80 and its co-designates, when the paving of state routes was finally a fait accompli, it was probably decided not to rock the boat and simply leave the U.S. routes where they were -- hence the multiplex that lasted well into the '70's, even after I-10 was constructed.   

Funny you should mention that. ADOT proposed US 93 down that corridor several times, but it never worked out. Also, I stated this in the I-10/SR 87 thread, but SR 84 and SR 87 between Mesa and Tucson were part of the Broadway of America, which followed US 80 between San Diego and New Mexico. Not a lot of people know SR 84 was ever part of BOA.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: 707 on September 28, 2018, 02:42:50 AM
Quote from: sparker on September 28, 2018, 01:48:32 AM
Quote from: 707 on September 28, 2018, 12:58:54 AM
Yeah. It's interesting to note US 80's proposed route never really changed through Arizona. I understand why US 89 was multiplexed with it all the way to Nogales, but honestly have always thought that was an unneeded multiplex. I think they should've kept the proposed Nogales Route as US 380 and ended US 89 at Grand Avenue and Van Buren Street in Phoenix, given the Phoenix to Tucson corridor via Florence was originally meant to only be US 80.

I always thought that US 80 should have turned south in Mesa along AZ 87 to AZ 84, then on to Tucson and beyond.  A 4-route multiplex from Phoenix to Florence Jct. was, at least to my mind, something that could have been avoided given the alternate routes through the Casa Grande area.  That being said, looking at the historical maps seemed to indicate that since US 80 was fully paved well before any other interregional arterial, that AZDOT early on decided to stick as many routes as possible along the already-paved facility; they obviously had no aversion to multiplexing.  Since it appears that the other Phoenix-Tucson route combinations were paved quite a bit later than US 80 and its co-designates, when the paving of state routes was finally a fait accompli, it was probably decided not to rock the boat and simply leave the U.S. routes where they were -- hence the multiplex that lasted well into the '70's, even after I-10 was constructed.   

Funny you should mention that. ADOT proposed US 93 down that corridor several times, but it never worked out. Also, I stated this in the I-10/SR 87 thread, but SR 84 and SR 87 between Mesa and Tucson were part of the Broadway of America, which followed US 80 between San Diego and New Mexico. Not a lot of people know SR 84 was ever part of BOA.

My personal opinion is that US 80 should have followed AZ 84 once it was completed to Gila Bend and AZ 86 once it was brought up to higher standards.  The US 80 dip up to Phoenix was understandable when there was no through routes to Los Angeles like US 60/70 from Phoenix but became unnaturally awkward once more route alignments were complete.  It took a much longer time to bring AZ 86/NM 14 up to standard but it was a far more direct route from Lordsburg to Benson than US 80 was.  The mines in Bisbee were very much active during the heyday of US 80 which I suspect played a huge roll in why the route stayed on that corridor.  Both of the long routes could have been given a bannered US 80A much like US 89 got when it was given a better alignment over Glen Canyon Dam.

Zonie

Interestingly, if you look at historic maps, the AZ 84/87 corridor between Phoenix and Tucson was paved (between 1933-34) long before the US 80/89 corridor (which was paved sometime in late WWII).

sparker

Quote from: Zonie on September 28, 2018, 11:56:33 AM
Interestingly, if you look at historic maps, the AZ 84/87 corridor between Phoenix and Tucson was paved (between 1933-34) long before the US 80/89 corridor (which was paved sometime in late WWII).

You are certainly correct; although it looks like some of AZ 87 just south of Mesa remained a gravel road in '34, there certainly was more paved Tucson-Phoenix mileage along AZ 84/87 than on the US 80/89 corridor through Florence.  It did look as if the US 180 (now US 60 and 70) corridor through Globe and Safford got more early paving consideration as well, being a more direct route into Phoenix from the east.   

707

Exactly. ADOT treated SR 84 and later SR 86 like that was the main corridor instead of the US 80 loops. Traffic volume reports from 1941 even show more people took 84 and 86 than the loops. On the inverse, if US 80 had been rerouted down 84 and 86, it would have been mostly destroyed in Arizona by I-10 and I-8. Being so out of the way, kept most of US 80 intact and was probably a huge factor in designating the route historic along with the fact it goes through the state capital as well as Tombstone and Bisbee.

VS988

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: 707 on September 28, 2018, 12:32:20 PM
Exactly. ADOT treated SR 84 and later SR 86 like that was the main corridor instead of the US 80 loops. Traffic volume reports from 1941 even show more people took 84 and 86 than the loops. On the inverse, if US 80 had been rerouted down 84 and 86, it would have been mostly destroyed in Arizona by I-10 and I-8. Being so out of the way, kept most of US 80 intact and was probably a huge factor in designating the route historic along with the fact it goes through the state capital as well as Tombstone and Bisbee.

VS988

Really I-20 and I-10 made US 80 west of the Dallas area irrelevant anyways.  The southeast Arizona was the only reason US 80 hung on as long as it did.  The multiplexes US 80 had to take to get to Arizona were absurdly long.

707

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 28, 2018, 11:05:56 PM
Quote from: 707 on September 28, 2018, 12:32:20 PM
Exactly. ADOT treated SR 84 and later SR 86 like that was the main corridor instead of the US 80 loops. Traffic volume reports from 1941 even show more people took 84 and 86 than the loops. On the inverse, if US 80 had been rerouted down 84 and 86, it would have been mostly destroyed in Arizona by I-10 and I-8. Being so out of the way, kept most of US 80 intact and was probably a huge factor in designating the route historic along with the fact it goes through the state capital as well as Tombstone and Bisbee.

VS988

Really I-20 and I-10 made US 80 west of the Dallas area irrelevant anyways.  The southeast Arizona was the only reason US 80 hung on as long as it did.  The multiplexes US 80 had to take to get to Arizona were absurdly long.

True, even though US 80 was the first highway on those routes and it was really US 70 and US 180 piggybacking.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: 707 on September 29, 2018, 01:50:05 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 28, 2018, 11:05:56 PM
Quote from: 707 on September 28, 2018, 12:32:20 PM
Exactly. ADOT treated SR 84 and later SR 86 like that was the main corridor instead of the US 80 loops. Traffic volume reports from 1941 even show more people took 84 and 86 than the loops. On the inverse, if US 80 had been rerouted down 84 and 86, it would have been mostly destroyed in Arizona by I-10 and I-8. Being so out of the way, kept most of US 80 intact and was probably a huge factor in designating the route historic along with the fact it goes through the state capital as well as Tombstone and Bisbee.

VS988

Really I-20 and I-10 made US 80 west of the Dallas area irrelevant anyways.  The southeast Arizona was the only reason US 80 hung on as long as it did.  The multiplexes US 80 had to take to get to Arizona were absurdly long.

True, even though US 80 was the first highway on those routes and it was really US 70 and US 180 piggybacking.

That's true, US 80 was the Main Street of Arizona...way more so than 66 IMO.  Thing is out of all the US Routes in Arizona it was US 80 that essentially was unchanged which is odd when you think about it.  66 was straightened, 70 was moved to a better alignment, 89 was extended to the border, and 80 just stayed the same. 

707

#22
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 29, 2018, 10:09:40 AM
Quote from: 707 on September 29, 2018, 01:50:05 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 28, 2018, 11:05:56 PM
Quote from: 707 on September 28, 2018, 12:32:20 PM
Exactly. ADOT treated SR 84 and later SR 86 like that was the main corridor instead of the US 80 loops. Traffic volume reports from 1941 even show more people took 84 and 86 than the loops. On the inverse, if US 80 had been rerouted down 84 and 86, it would have been mostly destroyed in Arizona by I-10 and I-8. Being so out of the way, kept most of US 80 intact and was probably a huge factor in designating the route historic along with the fact it goes through the state capital as well as Tombstone and Bisbee.

VS988

Really I-20 and I-10 made US 80 west of the Dallas area irrelevant anyways.  The southeast Arizona was the only reason US 80 hung on as long as it did.  The multiplexes US 80 had to take to get to Arizona were absurdly long.

True, even though US 80 was the first highway on those routes and it was really US 70 and US 180 piggybacking.

That's true, US 80 was the Main Street of Arizona...way more so than 66 IMO.  Thing is out of all the US Routes in Arizona it was US 80 that essentially was unchanged which is odd when you think about it.  66 was straightened, 70 was moved to a better alignment, 89 was extended to the border, and 80 just stayed the same.
Yeah. The only time US 80 dramatically changed was when they rerouted it to a straighter road (present SR 85) in 1956 between Gila Bend and Buckeye. Or when the road was truncared in 1977 then removed in 1989. There were a few minor straightemings though, such as the bypass of Dome in 1928, the bypass of El Camino Viejo in 1932, the bypass of Old Divide Road in 1954 and the bypass of Marsh Station/Pantano in 1956. Out of all the realignments, the Gillespie Dam bypass was easily the largest, with the second largest being the Blaisdell and Dome bypass of 1928.

VS988

sparker

^^^^^^^^
While US 66 is iconic in Northern Arizona history and lore (but probably wouldn't even be there if not for the parallel Santa Fe RR main line), US 80 is, of all the highways that are or have been situated within the state, the "bloodline" of the area.  It connects the two cities that have always outstripped any others in terms of metro centers and sheer population -- Phoenix and Tucson, as well as the historic #3, Yuma (at least until the PHX suburbs kept growing and growing).  And it passes through historic Tombstone as well -- how much more iconically Arizonan can a highway get?  It hit virtually everything in the southern half of the state -- the Douglas border area, Tombstone, Tucson, Apache Junction, Phoenix, and then on to the Gila River agricultural zone.  And before US 60 (and, later, 70) were paved into CA, US 80 was the main roadway to get from Texas to California, its convolutions in AZ allowing travelers to take in as much of the south state as possible.  Since the main SP rail line bypassed Phoenix in favor of a more direct line between Yuma & Tucson, it's likely that without US 80 passing through the area that Phoenix wouldn't have developed as it did over the decades without it. 

707

Quote from: sparker on September 29, 2018, 03:39:45 PM
^^^^^^^^
While US 66 is iconic in Northern Arizona history and lore (but probably wouldn't even be there if not for the parallel Santa Fe RR main line), US 80 is, of all the highways that are or have been situated within the state, the "bloodline" of the area.  It connects the two cities that have always outstripped any others in terms of metro centers and sheer population -- Phoenix and Tucson, as well as the historic #3, Yuma (at least until the PHX suburbs kept growing and growing).  And it passes through historic Tombstone as well -- how much more iconically Arizonan can a highway get?  It hit virtually everything in the southern half of the state -- the Douglas border area, Tombstone, Tucson, Apache Junction, Phoenix, and then on to the Gila River agricultural zone.  And before US 60 (and, later, 70) were paved into CA, US 80 was the main roadway to get from Texas to California, its convolutions in AZ allowing travelers to take in as much of the south state as possible.  Since the main SP rail line bypassed Phoenix in favor of a more direct line between Yuma & Tucson, it's likely that without US 80 passing through the area that Phoenix wouldn't have developed as it did over the decades without it.
I'm thinking the huge reason US 66 is the moee well known road is because of Bobby Troupe's song and The Grapes of Wrath. US 80 never had a hit song or popular book written with it playing a key or central role. But I most definitely agree US 80 was the better representing highway for Arizona and our state's true Main Street. Not to bash US 66, it's still a great old highway. Though there's no doubt in my mind more of US 80 is intact than US 66 in terms of roadway.

VS988




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