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US-75 Expansion/Construction between north of Dallas and the TX/OK state line

Started by TheBox, November 10, 2023, 11:34:20 AM

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MikieTimT

Quote from: rtXC1 on February 19, 2024, 10:54:51 AM
Quote from: -- US 175 -- on January 19, 2024, 02:14:19 PM
I wonder if the Hard Rock and Margaritaville-Preston Harbor announcements have put any further emphasis on plans like Sherman's to look into interstate status for US 75.
That's been their wish since talk of "closing the gap" in Sherman began over a decade ago. Now that it's nearly complete, I'd like to hear current leadership speak about this move. Here's the last I've seen publicly. https://www.kxii.com/content/news/US-75-stretch-in-Sherman-only-section-in-Texas-not-up-to-interstate-standards-465287963.html

And yes, I-45 can and should simply end at the Red River.

I'd disagree with that statement.  FHWA and AASHTO don't typically approve of a 2DI designation that doesn't end at another 2DI or an international border.  Although the Red River was the U.S. border for a period of time, Texas was on the wrong side of it to get federal funds...


-- US 175 --

Quote from: rtXC1 on February 19, 2024, 10:44:54 AM
Quote from: Road Hog on January 18, 2024, 02:30:02 PM
TxDOT will have to seriously upgrade TX 289 (a former FM road) between Pottsboro and the lake to accommodate a new bridge/causeway, but I'm not against the idea.
Well, it's in the works and a lot of people are not happy about it.
https://www.kten.com/story/49883468/plan-to-widen-state-highway-289-north-from-pottsboro

Interesting goof in the linked article.  Near the top, it says "Lamar and Grayson Counties".  Later it actually tells the extent of the work: Pottsboro to the end at Elks Lane.  I wonder where they got Lamar County from; that's where Paris is, *two counties* away.  Either way, the project hasn't started, so there's time if the station wants to issue a correction.

I wonder if one of the existing lakeside spots is pushing for this, as it won't benefit the Margaritaville-Preston Harbor development.

kphoger

Quote from: MikieTimT on February 19, 2024, 03:31:02 PM

Quote from: rtXC1 on February 19, 2024, 10:54:51 AM

I-45 can and should simply end at the Red River.

I'd disagree with that statement.  FHWA and AASHTO don't typically approve of a 2DI designation that doesn't end at another 2DI or an international border.  Although the Red River was the U.S. border for a period of time, Texas was on the wrong side of it to get federal funds...

It doesn't even make sense as an endpoint anyway.  Why would a "federal" designation end at a state line?
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Strider

Quote from: kphoger on February 19, 2024, 05:14:24 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on February 19, 2024, 03:31:02 PM

Quote from: rtXC1 on February 19, 2024, 10:54:51 AM

I-45 can and should simply end at the Red River.

I'd disagree with that statement.  FHWA and AASHTO don't typically approve of a 2DI designation that doesn't end at another 2DI or an international border.  Although the Red River was the U.S. border for a period of time, Texas was on the wrong side of it to get federal funds...

It doesn't even make sense as an endpoint anyway.  Why would a "federal" designation end at a state line?


I-41 says hello (even though it starts and ends at I-94/US 41 interchange just below the state line)
I-11 says hello (for now)

kphoger

Quote from: Strider on February 19, 2024, 11:59:42 PM
I-41 says hello (even though it starts and ends at I-94/US 41 interchange just below the state line)

1.  Silly highway.
2.  Also, yes, it ends at a highway junction, not at a state line.
3.  It really shouldn't be designated at all south of Milwaukee anyway.

Quote from: Strider on February 19, 2024, 11:59:42 PM
I-11 says hello (for now)

And nobody would say that "I-11 can and should simply end at the Colorado River".
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

DJStephens

Quote from: kphoger on February 19, 2024, 05:14:24 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on February 19, 2024, 03:31:02 PM

Quote from: rtXC1 on February 19, 2024, 10:54:51 AM

I-45 can and should simply end at the Red River.

I'd disagree with that statement.  FHWA and AASHTO don't typically approve of a 2DI designation that doesn't end at another 2DI or an international border.  Although the Red River was the U.S. border for a period of time, Texas was on the wrong side of it to get federal funds...

It doesn't even make sense as an endpoint anyway.  Why would a "federal" designation end at a state line?
Eventually, though, it should terminate @ I-44 @ Big Cabin.  That's the route trucks take, am assuming.  There is a limited access portion of US - 69 N of McAlester that would be utilized, and largely/may meet standards.   The possibility of using the Indian Nation, and US - 75 into Tulsa, using existing expressways inside Tulsa, and then US - 169 up to the southern edges of the KC metro is an interesting alternative, although it's not likely where the trucking is.   Have been on US - 169 NE of Tulsa, and it is a decent road for a stretch, before it peters out.   

kphoger

Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Bobby5280

I've seen that chart before. That reading for US-69 in Oklahoma from the Red River to Big Cabin looks very fishy to me. I've driven on I-44 thru Big Cabin to places like Joplin, St Louis (and farther) many times. Big numbers of trucks get on/off I-44 at Big Cabin. Anyone will already see quite a few trucks on I-44 between OKC and Tulsa. But the volume of trucks really picks up once you get East of Big Cabin. That is a major junction point. You can plainly see it when passing that exit. Lots of trucks get off I-44 headed toward DFW or they get on I-44 heading for St Louis.

DJStephens

Well, if am reading the title correctly, its a "future" projection twenty years out.  And also likely assuming no major improvements are made to the US - 69 corridor.  Using it (US 75/69), as opposed to I-35/I-44, allows for a complete bypassing of the OKC & Tulsa metros, to their E, and also for toll savings by avoidance of all of the Turner, and a good chunk of the Will Rogers.   Appears to be shorter, and more direct, also.   

kphoger

Quote from: DJStephens on February 20, 2024, 05:16:39 PM
Well, if am reading the title correctly, its a "future" projection twenty years out.

True, but I'm not aware of any map more current than 2013 (see below):



The forecast for twenty years out was based on 2012 data (see below):

Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Rothman

You'd think they would have updated those maps by now.  Freight projects even back then got a bunch of shrugs.  That was also the era where Cambridge Systematics got laughed out of the room when they said the Williamsville Toll Barrier on the Thruway was the worst freight bottleneck in the country.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

kphoger

Quote from: Rothman on February 20, 2024, 07:35:40 PM
You'd think they would have updated those maps by now.  Freight projects even back then got a bunch of shrugs.  That was also the era where Cambridge Systematics got laughed out of the room when they said the Williamsville Toll Barrier on the Thruway was the worst freight bottleneck in the country.

Their list of bottlenecks, in case you're interested, is up to date as of 2021:  https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freight/freight_analysis/mobility_trends/national_list_2021.htm

There's all sorts of charts and maps here, but I don't see an up-to-date version of that freight corridor map.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

MikieTimT

Quote from: kphoger on February 20, 2024, 08:46:10 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 20, 2024, 07:35:40 PM
You'd think they would have updated those maps by now.  Freight projects even back then got a bunch of shrugs.  That was also the era where Cambridge Systematics got laughed out of the room when they said the Williamsville Toll Barrier on the Thruway was the worst freight bottleneck in the country.

Their list of bottlenecks, in case you're interested, is up to date as of 2021:  https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freight/freight_analysis/mobility_trends/national_list_2021.htm

There's all sorts of charts and maps here, but I don't see an up-to-date version of that freight corridor map.

The bottleneck list pretty much has urban areas and concurrencies, not longer rural congested corridors.  Makes sense, though as that's typically where the most egregious congestion exists.

The "embolism" map should definitely be updated within a year or two with Covid and boomer retirements affecting freight connections, although it's still going to be shaking out over the next several years as more boomers retire from the workforce and pull their capital back out of the system slowly.

rtXC1

Quote from: kphoger on February 19, 2024, 05:14:24 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on February 19, 2024, 03:31:02 PM

Quote from: rtXC1 on February 19, 2024, 10:54:51 AM

I-45 can and should simply end at the Red River.

I'd disagree with that statement.  FHWA and AASHTO don't typically approve of a 2DI designation that doesn't end at another 2DI or an international border.  Although the Red River was the U.S. border for a period of time, Texas was on the wrong side of it to get federal funds...

It doesn't even make sense as an endpoint anyway.  Why would a "federal" designation end at a state line?
It should open in phases up to Big Cabin (at the very least). With Texas having both a plan and funding, the interstate designation shouldn't be reliant on what Oklahoma does or does not do.

Plutonic Panda

Quote from: rtXC1 on March 15, 2024, 05:50:34 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 19, 2024, 05:14:24 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on February 19, 2024, 03:31:02 PM

Quote from: rtXC1 on February 19, 2024, 10:54:51 AM

I-45 can and should simply end at the Red River.

I'd disagree with that statement.  FHWA and AASHTO don't typically approve of a 2DI designation that doesn't end at another 2DI or an international border.  Although the Red River was the U.S. border for a period of time, Texas was on the wrong side of it to get federal funds...

It doesn't even make sense as an endpoint anyway.  Why would a "federal" designation end at a state line?
It should open in phases up to Big Cabin (at the very least). With Texas having both a plan and funding, the interstate designation shouldn't be reliant on what Oklahoma does or does not do.
It could also also put pressure on Oklahoma to actually do something.

Road Hog

I believe the AASHTO rule is an interstate highway can end at an intersection with a US highway. That definition is satisfied by the intersection of US 75 and US 69 a mile south of the Red River. So not ending at the river per se.

bwana39

Quote from: MikieTimT on February 19, 2024, 03:31:02 PM
Quote from: rtXC1 on February 19, 2024, 10:54:51 AM
Quote from: -- US 175 -- on January 19, 2024, 02:14:19 PM
I wonder if the Hard Rock and Margaritaville-Preston Harbor announcements have put any further emphasis on plans like Sherman's to look into interstate status for US 75.
That's been their wish since talk of "closing the gap" in Sherman began over a decade ago. Now that it's nearly complete, I'd like to hear current leadership speak about this move. Here's the last I've seen publicly. https://www.kxii.com/content/news/US-75-stretch-in-Sherman-only-section-in-Texas-not-up-to-interstate-standards-465287963.html

And yes, I-45 can and should simply end at the Red River.

I'd disagree with that statement.  FHWA and AASHTO don't typically approve of a 2DI designation that doesn't end at another 2DI or an international border.  Although the Red River was the U.S. border for a period of time, Texas was on the wrong side of it to get federal funds...

But if they proposed its eventual termination at I-40 or I-44 it would become academic.
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

bwana39

Quote from: Road Hog on March 15, 2024, 09:32:58 PM
I believe the AASHTO rule is an interstate highway can end at an intersection with a US highway. That definition is satisfied by the intersection of US 75 and US 69 a mile south of the Red River. So not ending at the river per se.

US -70 would be a good choice if this were the case.
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

Bobby5280

Several at-grade intersections are still present on US-69/75 between Colbert and Calera. Plus there is that gravel pull-off area immediately at the North end of the Red River bridge. I assume that is for railroad company use. Those issues have to be fixed before an Interstate can be signed up to US-70 in Durant.

Even if all those issues were fixed, I'm not sure if Oklahoma would be worthy enough to have I-45 signed up to Durant. The problem is past difficulties in Atoka, Stringtown, etc. I'm trying to think of the signing scenario that would put the most pressure on getting those communities to agree to some kind of thru path for a possible I-45 extension.

If the potential I-45 extension was to end at the US-75/US-69 interchange on the North side of Denison, near the edge of the Red River, it could really tease the hell out of people nearby on the other side of the river. Then it might get people in Oklahoma pissed off at each other and increase pressure to get something done.

I just don't think it's good enough for a potential I-45 extension to end unceremoniously at a highway intersection in the town of Durant just North of a huge casino complex. Such an extension, and one carrying a major designation, needs to have a more worthwhile North terminus. I-40 in Checotah. I-44 in Big Cabin would be even better. Some people want I-45 extended to Tulsa.

bwana39

Quote from: Bobby5280 on March 15, 2024, 11:24:49 PM
I-40 in Checotah. I-44 in Big Cabin would be even better. Some people want I-45 extended to Tulsa.

US-69 does tend to be the bigger deal than US-75 in Oklahoma. That said, the interstate if it is ever done should follow US-75 to Tulsa. More aptly follow US-69 to the Indian Nation Turnpike and follow INT and US-62/75 to Tulsa.

Currently , this route is mostly 4-lane divided highway, but would need a lot of work.

Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

MikieTimT

Quote from: bwana39 on March 16, 2024, 09:53:09 AM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on March 15, 2024, 11:24:49 PM
I-40 in Checotah. I-44 in Big Cabin would be even better. Some people want I-45 extended to Tulsa.

US-69 does tend to be the bigger deal than US-75 in Oklahoma. That said, the interstate if it is ever done should follow US-75 to Tulsa. More aptly follow US-69 to the Indian Nation Turnpike and follow INT and US-62/75 to Tulsa.

Currently , this route is mostly 4-lane divided highway, but would need a lot of work.

Problem with US-69 as a Future I-45 is, although it is the more direct route between the Dallas and KC area, it serves less population through Oklahoma by avoiding Tulsa, and through Kansas is far too close to I-49 to make sense, even though a significant portion is already 4-lanes, with a good amount of limited access.  It's the same argument that many on this forum make about I-69's closeness with I-55 in Mississippi and I-30/40 in Arkansas.  Now, I see a facility avoiding a population center for the sake of through traffic as a beneficial thing for the sake of congestion, when it comes to the state coming up with 20% of the money to make it happen, that almost never happens with the levers of power in those states having a vested interest in keeping most of the connections of the IHS with the current nodes.  The reason that I-57 will happen in Arkansas with priority as opposed to I-49 and to an even lesser extent, I-69, is because it gives Little Rock yet another interstate connection, keeping the all roads lead to Little Rock theme going as long as they get away with it.  It's why 30 Crossing project got the >$1B funding that it got for more traffic lanes, despite the true traffic need being for beltways to allow through traffic to get around Little Rock rather than I-30 up the gut of LR/NLR that essentially benefits the local commuters.  Oklahoma when it comes to putting pavement on the ground will only due so if it's either done as a turnpike, or benefits OKC/Tulsa.  US-69 being converted to I-45 through Oklahoma will only happen if OTA does it in its entirety.  Now, that would actually be a beneficial turnpike for the state compared to some of the porky far flung projects they've done outside the OKC/Tulsa metros, but we'll have to wait and see if OTA actually does something in modern times other than find bond projects to perpetuate the tolls for pre-existing facilities.

DJStephens

"mileage mike" has a new video discussing some of the history and banalities of the OK turnpike authority.    Such as the routings (some two lane) in remote areas of the state, that connect seemingly nothing to nothing.    Personally, I'd rather pay a higher state (and federal) fuel tax, and abolish just about all of these authorities, which have outlived their purpose and meaning.   

Bobby5280

I saw that Mileage Mike video. Some of the information in the video was interesting. He mentioned a bit of information how bonds for the turnpikes were sold and how the debt was carried over for the funding of new turnpikes. The technical term for it is cross-pledging. People in Oklahoma (and elsewhere) complain and claim the turnpikes are paid for and that the tollgates need to be removed. Those who call for toll gates being removed don't factor in costs of maintenance or improvement projects. They also overlook what might happen if 600+ miles of toll roads in Oklahoma are turned over to ODOT to maintain. We pay some of the lowest gasoline tax rates in the nation; that would change quite dramatically if all those turnpikes were turned into "free" roads.

The video mentioned little to nothing about the price of tolls on Oklahoma's turnpikes (or the huge difference in price between PikePass rates and rates for Pay by Plate). The video didn't offer any comparisons of toll rates in Oklahoma versus those in Texas or other states.

I've said this before, but it's worth repeating: a bunch of the limited access highways in Oklahoma (such as I-44 going thru Lawton) would have never ever been built if they had to be funded using gasoline tax dollars.

Quote from: MikieTimTProblem with US-69 as a Future I-45 is, although it is the more direct route between the Dallas and KC area, it serves less population through Oklahoma by avoiding Tulsa, and through Kansas is far too close to I-49 to make sense, even though a significant portion is already 4-lanes, with a good amount of limited access.

Most of the people in this forum advocating for an I-45 extension into Oklahoma are not selling it as a DFW to KC route. The US-69/I-44 interchange in Big Cabin is frequently mentioned as a logical North terminus for an extended I-45 route. It is heavily used by commercial trucks. The trucks are coming up from Texas and headed to various points in the North or Northeast US.

Tulsa is a pretty big city. But even if US-75 was fully upgraded to Interstate standards between Dallas and Tulsa quite a bit of that truck traffic would probably still use I-69. Olkmulgee is a pretty serious obstacle for building a Dallas-Tulsa Interstate.

QuoteIt's the same argument that many on this forum make about I-69's closeness with I-55 in Mississippi and I-30/40 in Arkansas.

Most of the complaints about I-69 in Arkansas (and neighboring states) is just how stupidly crooked the route's proposed path is. The extra miles added to the path due to its indirect nature take away much if not all the mileage savings versus picking up I-30 in Texarkana and using I-30 and I-40 to reach Memphis.

I'm skeptical I-45 (or any other Interstate number) will be applied to US-75 going North of Dallas any time soon. Oklahoma's lawmakers and ODOT have given no indication they're interested in any sort of I-45 deal, much less mentioned any preference for where such a route should go. I just don't see the value of extending an Interstate highway with a "major" number North for only a modest number of miles to minor destinations like Denison or Durant.

rtXC1

Construction is not yet complete in Sherman south of Exit 64 (Loy Lake Rd), but started in Denison several weeks ago. Northbound Exit 67 (N Loy Lake) is now deemed "closed forever." I suppose this exit number will be skipped  when the project is complete, but am not sure. Southbound Exit 66 will eventually be shuttered as well, so maybe they'll just pick one.

Locals are not happy about losing this exit.

longhorn

Quote from: bwana39 on March 16, 2024, 09:53:09 AM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on March 15, 2024, 11:24:49 PMI-40 in Checotah. I-44 in Big Cabin would be even better. Some people want I-45 extended to Tulsa.

US-69 does tend to be the bigger deal than US-75 in Oklahoma. That said, the interstate if it is ever done should follow US-75 to Tulsa. More aptly follow US-69 to the Indian Nation Turnpike and follow INT and US-62/75 to Tulsa.

Currently , this route is mostly 4-lane divided highway, but would need a lot of work.



Why to Tulsa? Political reasons?



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