The Future of Flashing yellow arrows signals

Started by blue.cable82, August 06, 2017, 07:42:08 PM

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kalvado

Quote from: UCFKnights on August 11, 2017, 09:27:07 PM

But even if the benefits are overrated, what would be the drawback? Other then a little bit of driver familiarity, it seems the answer to that is "none"

Keep in mind too that while the doghouses were the most popular way to do PPLT, many agencies did recognize the problems with it, and other alternatives are in use throughout the nation (dallas phasing, flashing balls for left turn signals, flashing red arrows, etc). This provides a consistent problem to the solution and not only obsoletes the doghouse, but the other alternatives as well.
What are the drawbacks other than a big one? well, if you don't consider that a showstopper to begin with...
Actually, a good question - how to force feed information to all drivers? I thought about that for a while, and my best idea is to have a "road laws update" leaflet and a short quiz to get license renewed. I would include roundabout refresh, FYA, SPUI, maybe DDI (although we don't have any in the state, I believe) and move over for current cycle. Probably would require a lot of laws to be changed, though... 

As for doghouse.. Maybe I wasn't very clear - my original question was " is it OK to keep the doghouse and use yellow arrow in middle left as FYA?" and "is it OK to attach FYA to a doghouse, if previous one is not OK?"


mrsman

Quote from: kalvado on August 12, 2017, 06:34:30 AM
Quote from: UCFKnights on August 11, 2017, 09:27:07 PM

But even if the benefits are overrated, what would be the drawback? Other then a little bit of driver familiarity, it seems the answer to that is "none"

Keep in mind too that while the doghouses were the most popular way to do PPLT, many agencies did recognize the problems with it, and other alternatives are in use throughout the nation (dallas phasing, flashing balls for left turn signals, flashing red arrows, etc). This provides a consistent problem to the solution and not only obsoletes the doghouse, but the other alternatives as well.
What are the drawbacks other than a big one? well, if you don't consider that a showstopper to begin with...
Actually, a good question - how to force feed information to all drivers? I thought about that for a while, and my best idea is to have a "road laws update" leaflet and a short quiz to get license renewed. I would include roundabout refresh, FYA, SPUI, maybe DDI (although we don't have any in the state, I believe) and move over for current cycle. Probably would require a lot of laws to be changed, though... 

As for doghouse.. Maybe I wasn't very clear - my original question was " is it OK to keep the doghouse and use yellow arrow in middle left as FYA?" and "is it OK to attach FYA to a doghouse, if previous one is not OK?"

I agree with the idea of a leaflet that should come in the mail with your registration renewal.  I wouldn't require good drivers to take the test every 2 years as it would overwhelm the DMV - the lines are long enough as it is.  There are all sorts of recent driving laws that have come about that didn't exist when I first learned to drive 25 years ago.  MD has a move over law for emergency vehicles that stop along the side of the road.   Many states are also incorporating KREPT and there also always seem to be some kind of change with the levels of fines and other standards.

In some places, there are new speed limits as well.  NYC now has a default of 25, but that is pretty well signed.

vdeane

Quote from: mrsman on August 13, 2017, 10:14:15 AM
I agree with the idea of a leaflet that should come in the mail with your registration renewal.  I wouldn't require good drivers to take the test every 2 years as it would overwhelm the DMV - the lines are long enough as it is.
Every 2 years?  Around here, a driver's licence is good for 8!  Not sure how vehicle registration got mixed into the conversation.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

jakeroot

Quote from: vdeane on August 13, 2017, 07:11:40 PM
Quote from: mrsman on August 13, 2017, 10:14:15 AM
I agree with the idea of a leaflet that should come in the mail with your registration renewal.  I wouldn't require good drivers to take the test every 2 years as it would overwhelm the DMV - the lines are long enough as it is.

Every 2 years?  Around here, a driver's licence is good for 8!  Not sure how vehicle registration got mixed into the conversation.

When you get new tabs, included would be a leaflet that covers any new traffic control devices. Some states like Oregon would be handicapped due to 2-year registrations.

Re-sitting a test every 6 or 8 years doesn't sound unreasonable to me. You could do it online. Maybe build an app or something.

kalvado

Quote from: jakeroot on August 13, 2017, 07:34:27 PM
Quote from: vdeane on August 13, 2017, 07:11:40 PM
Quote from: mrsman on August 13, 2017, 10:14:15 AM
I agree with the idea of a leaflet that should come in the mail with your registration renewal.  I wouldn't require good drivers to take the test every 2 years as it would overwhelm the DMV - the lines are long enough as it is.

Every 2 years?  Around here, a driver's licence is good for 8!  Not sure how vehicle registration got mixed into the conversation.

When you get new tabs, included would be a leaflet that covers any new traffic control devices. Some states like Oregon would be handicapped due to 2-year registrations.

Re-sitting a test every 6 or 8 years doesn't sound unreasonable to me. You could do it online. Maybe build an app or something.
I was thinking about less than a full scale test, something like 5 multiple choice question along the lines of "what FYA means - (1)protected turn, (2)permissive turn, (3)change of signal, (4)severe weather alert" - just to make sure leaflet is read and understood.
Doing such test either online or on a form at DMV is not a huge burden. Although permit test in NY is pretty much a joke anyway - at least it was when I was taking it. My favorite question was what to do if you have a green light, but a cop shows you to stop where you are. One of choices was "run  over that person so that traffic may flow normally"...

jakeroot

Quote from: kalvado on August 13, 2017, 08:30:45 PM
My favorite [NYS driver's permit] question was what to do if you have a green light, but a cop shows you to stop where you are. One of choices was "run  over that person so that traffic may flow normally"...


vdeane

I remember one question on that test where the answer was contained in the following question.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: kalvado on August 13, 2017, 08:30:45 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 13, 2017, 07:34:27 PM
Quote from: vdeane on August 13, 2017, 07:11:40 PM
Quote from: mrsman on August 13, 2017, 10:14:15 AM
I agree with the idea of a leaflet that should come in the mail with your registration renewal.  I wouldn't require good drivers to take the test every 2 years as it would overwhelm the DMV - the lines are long enough as it is.

Every 2 years?  Around here, a driver's licence is good for 8!  Not sure how vehicle registration got mixed into the conversation.

When you get new tabs, included would be a leaflet that covers any new traffic control devices. Some states like Oregon would be handicapped due to 2-year registrations.

Re-sitting a test every 6 or 8 years doesn't sound unreasonable to me. You could do it online. Maybe build an app or something.
I was thinking about less than a full scale test, something like 5 multiple choice question along the lines of "what FYA means - (1)protected turn, (2)permissive turn, (3)change of signal, (4)severe weather alert" - just to make sure leaflet is read and understood.
Doing such test either online or on a form at DMV is not a huge burden. Although permit test in NY is pretty much a joke anyway - at least it was when I was taking it. My favorite question was what to do if you have a green light, but a cop shows you to stop where you are. One of choices was "run  over that person so that traffic may flow normally"...

Let's just say someone actually believe that and chose it.  If it's a 50 question test and that's the only answer they got wrong, they passed with a 98% score.

The next day, they encounter a cop stopping traffic at a green light.  The guy hits the cop.  The guy is now in jail.

Personally, they should require a 100% passing rate on a test to get a license.  If you miss "What is one drink considered" and you don't drink, it's probably not going to harm you in life.  If you miss "What do you do when you see a red 8 sided sign with the letters STOP in it", and pull out of the parking lot failing to stop because you truly didn't know what that sign meant, it could be disastrous.

But in today's tests, missing just either one out of 50 means you still pass, although one is way more important than the other.

kalvado

Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 14, 2017, 01:24:13 PM
But in today's tests, missing just either one out of 50 means you still pass, although one is way more important than the other.
Life is not perfect. How do you call the last person on medical college graduates list? Right, "doctor".


US 89

#84
Quote from: jakeroot on August 13, 2017, 09:42:35 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 13, 2017, 08:30:45 PM
My favorite [NYS driver's permit] question was what to do if you have a green light, but a cop shows you to stop where you are. One of choices was "run  over that person so that traffic may flow normally"...



The UT permit test was like that. I know one question was "How many sides does a stop sign have?" The multiple choice options were 4, 6, and 8.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: kalvado on August 14, 2017, 02:15:24 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 14, 2017, 01:24:13 PM
But in today's tests, missing just either one out of 50 means you still pass, although one is way more important than the other.
Life is not perfect. How do you call the last person on medical college graduates list? Right, "doctor".

Correct.  But if you're looking for a doctor that could potentially save your life, that would be the one you'll like to stay away from.  Like when you need emergency surgery because someone didn't understand what the red light meant at a traffic light.

Brandon

Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 15, 2017, 10:08:12 AM
Quote from: kalvado on August 14, 2017, 02:15:24 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 14, 2017, 01:24:13 PM
But in today's tests, missing just either one out of 50 means you still pass, although one is way more important than the other.
Life is not perfect. How do you call the last person on medical college graduates list? Right, "doctor".

Correct.  But if you're looking for a doctor that could potentially save your life, that would be the one you'll like to stay away from.  Like when you need emergency surgery because someone didn't understand what the red light meant at a traffic light.

Maybe, maybe not.  Book learning and testing well does not necessarily equate to real world performance.  Someone can test very badly yet perform extremely well.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

kalvado

Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 15, 2017, 10:08:12 AM
Quote from: kalvado on August 14, 2017, 02:15:24 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 14, 2017, 01:24:13 PM
But in today's tests, missing just either one out of 50 means you still pass, although one is way more important than the other.
Life is not perfect. How do you call the last person on medical college graduates list? Right, "doctor".

Correct.  But if you're looking for a doctor that could potentially save your life, that would be the one you'll like to stay away from.  Like when you need emergency surgery because someone didn't understand what the red light meant at a traffic light.
Realistically, how many important traffic law provisions are not common sense? Until you grew up somewhere in jungle, by the age of 12 you probably know the meaning of green and red. There are really few things you need to remember - passing school bus, parking near hydrant... Turn on red and entering roundabout need to be explained once and for all, it is not about people not knowing it. I bet most traffic violations are just ignoring the "unimportant" law (such as speed limit), not failure to understand that running over a person is a very very bad idea - except some really extreme situations.

paulthemapguy

Quote from: kalvado on August 15, 2017, 10:58:33 AM
Realistically, how many important traffic law provisions are not common sense? Until you grew up somewhere in jungle, by the age of 12 you probably know the meaning of green and red. There are really few things you need to remember - passing school bus, parking near hydrant... Turn on red and entering roundabout need to be explained once and for all, it is not about people not knowing it. I bet most traffic violations are just ignoring the "unimportant" law (such as speed limit), not failure to understand that running over a person is a very very bad idea - except some really extreme situations.

If the intended behavior of a motorist is anything other than straightforward, it is a failure of roadway engineers and affiliates.  If it takes more than a couple sentences to describe to a motorist how they're supposed to navigate a traffic pattern, then the traffic pattern should not be implemented.  It's a safety issue, and whoever installed the convoluted piece of infrastructure should be deemed negligent.  You have to design everything so that even an idiot can easily understand it.  This is why road agencies are so slow to change, though--if the motoring public isn't familiar with a certain traffic design element, it's not worth subjecting them to the learning curve if it costs human lives.  Though if a new design element is entirely safer than the traditional alternative, maybe the introduction of a new element would be worth it.  Whether or not it's worth it--that's where the gray areas come from, giving way to a lot of arguments on this forum.  Some of these arguments are nice to see, though, when the participants are cool people  :cool:
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Revive 755

Quote from: kalvado on August 15, 2017, 10:58:33 AM
Realistically, how many important traffic law provisions are not common sense? Until you grew up somewhere in jungle, by the age of 12 you probably know the meaning of green and red. There are really few things you need to remember - passing school bus, parking near hydrant... Turn on red and entering roundabout need to be explained once and for all, it is not about people not knowing it.

There's common sense and then there's having the laws that vary state by state.  Take turning on red: it varies in some states based on which side of the road the turn is on, and whether the red is an arrow or circular indication.  With school buses, there's a lot of varying on when opposing traffic must stop.  Then there are the real odd ones such as Wisconsin where the school bus can unload without always requiring traffic to stop, even if traffic is traveling in the same direction as the bus.

mrsman

Quote from: Revive 755 on August 16, 2017, 10:24:49 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 15, 2017, 10:58:33 AM
Realistically, how many important traffic law provisions are not common sense? Until you grew up somewhere in jungle, by the age of 12 you probably know the meaning of green and red. There are really few things you need to remember - passing school bus, parking near hydrant... Turn on red and entering roundabout need to be explained once and for all, it is not about people not knowing it.

There's common sense and then there's having the laws that vary state by state.  Take turning on red: it varies in some states based on which side of the road the turn is on, and whether the red is an arrow or circular indication.  With school buses, there's a lot of varying on when opposing traffic must stop.  Then there are the real odd ones such as Wisconsin where the school bus can unload without always requiring traffic to stop, even if traffic is traveling in the same direction as the bus.

More and more good arguments for nationalized uniform traffic laws despite federalism.



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