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Started by Mergingtraffic, September 02, 2015, 03:30:46 PM

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Pete from Boston

Quote from: Alps on June 03, 2022, 11:54:04 PM
I mean... their existing tolls are one way. So they are replacing existing tolls in kind. They can choose whether and when to go to two-way tolling and perhaps there are political issues there, perhaps not - but it's up to them not you.

I'm aware that they have the ability to make that call (and not me) but my question was about whether folks are aware of why they have stayed this particular course. The TBTA went to two-way tolling when it became practical, I'm curious if anyone has insight into why the two agencies have taken different approaches.


NoGoodNamesAvailable

Every crossing on the Hudson River up to Catskill is tolled going eastbound. It's not like you can avoid paying the toll. The situation with TBTA is different because there are untolled crossings going into Manhattan and there is some potential for shunpiking.

vdeane

Quote from: NoGoodNamesAvailable on June 04, 2022, 07:32:51 PM
Every crossing on the Hudson River up to Catskill is tolled going eastbound. It's not like you can avoid paying the toll. The situation with TBTA is different because there are untolled crossings going into Manhattan and there is some potential for shunpiking.
Yeah, the Verrazzano went back to two-way because traffic was shunpiking it through Manhattan.  The other MTA crossings never were one-way so there was nothing to change.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

cl94

The VNB went bidirectional to match the other TBTA crossings. As mentioned previously, people were shunpiking through Manhattan WB and across Staten Island EB to avoid paying TBTA tolls. This will theoretically balance traffic and make it so the only way to shunpike in either direction is via surface roads.

The Hudson River crossings won't go bidirectional unless every crossing north to Catskill goes bidirectional (Castleton is already bidirectional, but this is tacked onto the Thruway toll structure). Even then, it would be dumb to go bidirectional because it would just encourage WB traffic to detour up to Tappan Zee or Bear Mountain where the toll is less. As it is, a lot of EB traffic uses one of those bridges to avoid Port Authority tolls.
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

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vdeane

Quote from: cl94 on June 05, 2022, 12:16:00 PM
The VNB went bidirectional to match the other TBTA crossings. As mentioned previously, people were shunpiking through Manhattan WB and across Staten Island EB to avoid paying TBTA tolls. This will theoretically balance traffic and make it so the only way to shunpike in either direction is via surface roads.

The Hudson River crossings won't go bidirectional unless every crossing north to Catskill goes bidirectional (Castleton is already bidirectional, but this is tacked onto the Thruway toll structure). Even then, it would be dumb to go bidirectional because it would just encourage WB traffic to detour up to Tappan Zee or Bear Mountain where the toll is less. As it is, a lot of EB traffic uses one of those bridges to avoid Port Authority tolls.
Given how congested the Cross-Bronx always is in that direction, such might actually be desirable, but two things would need to happen to prevent other roads from becoming more congested as a result: the Thruway would need to be widened between exits 11 and 14A (maybe even all the way to 15 depending on how many trucks divert), and the Bridge Authority would need to permit three lanes of travel at all times on the Newburgh-Beacon Bridge westbound.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

RobbieL2415

Frankly, it should be illegal for NYS to toll every Hudson River bridge south of Rensselaer.

Alps

Quote from: RobbieL2415 on June 05, 2022, 07:33:49 PM
Frankly, it should be illegal for NYS to toll every Hudson River bridge south of Rensselaer.
please file a lawsuit and let us know how it goes

bluecountry

1.  Was I-78 supposed to use the Williamsburg Bridge originally, and spur to the Brooklyn bridge?  Those could have been used by the interstate system?

2.  Given the way NYC interstates ultimately were built, wouldn't it be more accurate for the numbers to be:
        A.  I-278 = I-395 to I-478 which...
        B. I-478 = I-395
        C. I-278 from I-478 to the GCP = I-487
        D. I-278 from the GCP to the Deegan Interchange = I-87
        E. I-278 from the Deegan to Bruckner = I-687
        F. I-295 = I-795
        G. I-678= I-595

The Ghostbuster

Yes, Interstate 78 was supposed to use the Williamsburg Bridge to exit Manhattan, and Interstate 478 was to have been the designation for the spur to The Manhattan Bridge, not the Brooklyn Bridge.
With the cancelation of Interstate 78 through New York City in 1971, the 478 designation was moved to the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel (now the Hugh L. Carey Tunnel). The 478 designation was to have gone further north as part of the "Westway" proposal, which would have reconstructed the pre-existing West Side Highway to Interstate Standards. When this proposal died in 1985 due to intense opposition and lawsuits, the 478 designation was truncated to its present northern terminus.

ixnay

Quote from: Alps on June 05, 2022, 07:50:35 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on June 05, 2022, 07:33:49 PM
Frankly, it should be illegal for NYS to toll every Hudson River bridge south of Rensselaer.
please file a lawsuit and let us know how it goes

Hey Robbie...

... *including* the GWB, Lincoln, Holland, and VNB (which spans the Narrows)?

How about the Staten Island crossings to NJ?
The Washington/Baltimore/Arlington CSA has two Key Bridges, a Minnesota Avenue, and a Mannasota Avenue.

Roadgeek Adam

Please let us know how you plan to fund maintenance for those bridges then.
Adam Seth Moss
M.A. History, Western Illinois University 2015-17
B.A. History, Montclair State University 2013-15
A.A. History & Education - Middlesex (County) College 2009-13

Great Lakes Roads

https://nj1015.com/major-toll-changes-for-george-washington-bridge-drivers-coming-from-nj/

Cashless tolling on the George Washington Bridge (GWB) from NJ to NY will begin on July 10th (Sunday).
The Lincoln Tunnel from NJ to NY will switch to cashless tolling at the end of 2022.

The Ghostbuster

There was a story in Newsweek about crumbling infrastructure in New York City: https://www.newsweek.com/crumbling-infrastructure-new-york-city-will-cost-lives-if-gone-unfixed-opinion-1714094. Let me know what you all think. Personally, I am surprised they did not mention the deteriorating double-decked section of the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway in Brooklyn Heights.

dgolub

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 10, 2022, 01:23:21 PM
There was a story in Newsweek about crumbling infrastructure in New York City: https://www.newsweek.com/crumbling-infrastructure-new-york-city-will-cost-lives-if-gone-unfixed-opinion-1714094. Let me know what you all think. Personally, I am surprised they did not mention the deteriorating double-decked section of the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway in Brooklyn Heights.

This could be about Brooklyn Heights being an upscale, mostly white neighborhood, which doesn't fit the prevailing media narrative.  (To be fair, the problems there are caused by NIMBYism on the part of residents in the neighborhood, not neglect by the city.)

TheDon102


New York Times : The B.Q.E. Is Crumbling. There's Still No Plan to Fix It.


Within the next couple of months we will hopefully be hearing a lot about the BQE's triple cantilever structure.

The Ghostbuster

I believe the plan is to let it collapse, then maybe something will be done (doubtful). Personally, I'd put the BQE underground in a tunnel between the Prospect Expressway and the Tillary Street interchange, and then remove the existing BQE between those two points. Yes, I know how expensive building tunnels are, among other factors, but I see that as preferable to letting it collapse, and potentially injuring and/or killing people.

RobbieL2415

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 15, 2022, 11:47:21 AM
I believe the plan is to let it collapse, then maybe something will be done (doubtful). Personally, I'd put the BQE underground in a tunnel between the Prospect Expressway and the Tillary Street interchange, and then remove the existing BQE between those two points. Yes, I know how expensive building tunnels are, among other factors, but I see that as preferable to letting it collapse, and potentially injuring and/or killing people.
I agree, send the tunnel down 3rd Ave, except I would have it end further east at the bend to Park Ave.

Plutonic Panda

I hope it's rebuilt as it's current form. It's such a cool structure. I hope to drive it before it collapses or is closed.

Mergingtraffic

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 15, 2022, 04:24:13 PM
I hope it's rebuilt as it's current form. It's such a cool structure. I hope to drive it before it collapses or is closed.

It's already restricted by a lane in each direction.  I find it fascinating too.  I drove it Sunday morning and by 9am it was congested.


Can anybody copy and paste the NYT article?  It asks to create an account and I don't read it that much to create one.  lol
I only take pics of good looking signs. Long live non-reflective button copy!
MergingTraffic https://www.flickr.com/photos/98731835@N05/

Plutonic Panda

^^^^
QuoteThe Brooklyn-Queens Expressway is slowly crumbling from the road salt and moisture that has weakened its concrete-and-steel foundation, and from all the overweight trucks that it was never designed to carry.

But six years after New York City officials sounded the alarm over the B.Q.E., there is still no consensus about what to do with this vital but outdated highway from the 1940s, which carries 129,000 vehicles a day.

At least a half-dozen plans have been floated, fractious public meetings and rallies have been held and a mayoral panel of experts worked for more than a year to come up with more options.

"It's been a lot of effort just trying not to make things worse, but we haven't been able to make it better,"  said Jake Brooks, 47, a law professor, whose apartment building sits beside the B.Q.E. and shakes from the vibrations of cars and trucks hitting potholes and bumps.

Now, the saga of the B.Q.E. is taking another turn as Mayor Eric Adams aims to start construction within five years on a yet-to-be-developed plan to fix the highway. That upends a proposal made in 2021 by Mr. Adams's predecessor, Bill de Blasio, to temporarily shore up the highway for 20 years at a cost of more than $500 million to give the city more time to work out a permanent solution.

"Our moment is right now,"  Mr. Adams said in a statement. "I will not wait decades and needlessly spend hundreds of millions of additional taxpayer dollars when we can and must start rebuilding this vital transportation artery today."

Fast-tracking the project, the mayor added, will allow the city to potentially tap into billions in new federal infrastructure funds that were unlocked by the Biden administration and use them to help pay for one of the city's most expensive transportation projects. Under federal legislation passed last year, cities can apply for grants each year until 2026.

"We have a once-in-a-generation opportunity to access the federal funding necessary to reimagine and rebuild the B.Q.E. that a post-pandemic economy and city demand, and we are seizing it,"  Mr. Adams said.

The mayor – who has a closer working relationship with Gov. Kathy Hochul than Mr. de Blasio did with former Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo – is also in "active discussions"  with state officials about overhauling the entire highway, which runs about 18 miles, instead of focusing on just the 1.5-mile section that the city controls, city officials said.

But some elected officials, community leaders and residents have questioned whether the city really can implement a new plan in just five years and have expressed concerns about cutting back on extensive repairs to shore up the existing structure in the meantime.

"There are no easy solutions; if there were, we would have done it many years ago,"  said Brooklyn city councilman Lincoln Restler, who has criticized the Adams administration for not aggressively carrying out repairs. "This has been kicked down the road because it is so hard."

Hank Gutman, a former transportation commissioner under Mr. de Blasio who was a member of the B.Q.E. panel, said it was "wishful thinking"  to believe a new plan could be adopted, approved and built before the structure becomes unsafe. "They have run out of time and options without employing the measures that we announced and adopted last year,"  he said.

The B.Q.E. was built in sections between 1944 and 1948 during the era of Robert Moses, the influential planner who expanded the city's roadways. Long known for narrow lanes and potholes, the highway also has a cherished feature: a pedestrian promenade in Brooklyn Heights with sweeping views of the Manhattan skyline that is suspended over traffic by an unusual triple cantilever structure.

The roadway is supported by steel rebars inside concrete. They are corroding from road salt that seeped in through cracks, which have widened from freezing and thawing and moisture.

Sign up for the New York Today Newsletter  Each morning, get the latest on New York businesses, arts, sports, dining, style and more.

In 2016, city officials announced they would rehabilitate the 1.5-mile section between Atlantic Avenue and Sands Street in Brooklyn, warning that if nothing was done, they would have to restrict trucks by 2026 to reduce the weight on the highway.

The B.Q.E. panel later concluded the highway was deteriorating even faster, in part because of all the trucks exceeding the 40-ton federal weight limit. At the panel's urging, two of the six lanes were eliminated last August, which has reduced vehicle traffic.

In 2018, city officials presented two options to rebuild the highway, which were rejected by critics, including Mr. Adams, then the Brooklyn borough president. One plan called for closing the Brooklyn Heights promenade for up to six years and erecting a temporary highway over it to redirect traffic while work occurred below.

Many of these critics envisioned a city with fewer cars and saw the B.Q.E. overhaul as an opportunity to do something about the worsening traffic that has choked neighborhoods with gridlock and pollution and made streets more dangerous for pedestrians and cyclists.

Counterproposals were floated. The City Council weighed in with an $11 billion plan to tear down the highway and replace it with a three-mile-long tunnel. Scott Stringer, the former city comptroller, proposed limiting part of the highway to trucks and converting another part into a two-mile-long park.

There will be no consensus on the B.Q.E., said Samuel I. Schwartz, a transportation engineer who has worked on the highway. He recommended that Mr. Adams and Ms. Hochul just set a deadline to come up with a new plan – and then move ahead with it over almost certain opposition.

"The city and state have to be together on this,"  he said. "If they're willing to commit to a decision one year from now, then it's a good plan."

Hazel Crampton-Hays, a spokeswoman for the governor, said, "The state is ready to support the city on the rehabilitation project, including by securing federal infrastructure funding."

City officials said they will continue making necessary highway repairs, including some laid out in Mr. de Blasio's 20-year plan. They have set aside $100 million for a dedicated contractor to make repairs identified by regular inspections. Sensors were also installed on the cantilever last year to monitor its vibrations and movements.

Next year, the city will begin rebuilding parts of two deteriorating bridge sections near Grace Court and Clark Street in Brooklyn, which will allow restrictions on trucks to be delayed until 2028. An automated ticketing system to enforce truck weight limits is to go into operation early next year.

Because Mr. Adams wants to initiate a more permanent fix to the B.Q.E. within five years and is committed to current expressway repairs, city officials said that longer-term repairs, like extensive work on bridge decks and joints, will no longer be necessary.

But in recent months, many community leaders and residents have grown increasingly frustrated and concerned over what they see as the city's lack of transparency and urgency about the expressway.

Pia Scala-Zankel, a writer whose family's brownstone in Brooklyn Heights overlooks a section of the expressway, said that she has not seen any repairs being made below her home over the past year. She has repeatedly asked the city transportation agency for an update on the repairs, but has heard nothing. "It's like a slap in the face,"  she said.

Mr. Restler, the city councilman, said that any B.Q.E. plan would require "a meaningful degree of community consensus,"  given the complex governmental approvals and environmental reviews required. "No plan can be shoved down our throats by City Hall or anyone else,"  he said.

Administration officials said they have been taking time to review the B.Q.E. project and will commence public meetings this month to work with the community on a new expedited plan.

Lara Birnback, the executive director of the Brooklyn Heights Association, a leading neighborhood voice, said that local residents and drivers would welcome a plan sooner rather than later, though she noted, "There are so many caveats and ifs there – all of the pieces would have to line up in the right way for that to be feasible."

She added that many in the community hope the city will do more than simply patch up the aging highway.

"We've moved beyond that,"  she said. "People would be upset not to see something more transformative, more green and more 21st century."

- https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/13/nyregion/brooklyn-queens-expressway-construction-plan.html

Ted$8roadFan

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 15, 2022, 06:27:51 PM
^^^^
QuoteThe Brooklyn-Queens Expressway is slowly crumbling from the road salt and moisture that has weakened its concrete-and-steel foundation, and from all the overweight trucks that it was never designed to carry.

But six years after New York City officials sounded the alarm over the B.Q.E., there is still no consensus about what to do with this vital but outdated highway from the 1940s, which carries 129,000 vehicles a day.

At least a half-dozen plans have been floated, fractious public meetings and rallies have been held and a mayoral panel of experts worked for more than a year to come up with more options.

"It's been a lot of effort just trying not to make things worse, but we haven't been able to make it better,"  said Jake Brooks, 47, a law professor, whose apartment building sits beside the B.Q.E. and shakes from the vibrations of cars and trucks hitting potholes and bumps.

Now, the saga of the B.Q.E. is taking another turn as Mayor Eric Adams aims to start construction within five years on a yet-to-be-developed plan to fix the highway. That upends a proposal made in 2021 by Mr. Adams's predecessor, Bill de Blasio, to temporarily shore up the highway for 20 years at a cost of more than $500 million to give the city more time to work out a permanent solution.

"Our moment is right now,"  Mr. Adams said in a statement. "I will not wait decades and needlessly spend hundreds of millions of additional taxpayer dollars when we can and must start rebuilding this vital transportation artery today."

Fast-tracking the project, the mayor added, will allow the city to potentially tap into billions in new federal infrastructure funds that were unlocked by the Biden administration and use them to help pay for one of the city's most expensive transportation projects. Under federal legislation passed last year, cities can apply for grants each year until 2026.

"We have a once-in-a-generation opportunity to access the federal funding necessary to reimagine and rebuild the B.Q.E. that a post-pandemic economy and city demand, and we are seizing it,"  Mr. Adams said.

The mayor – who has a closer working relationship with Gov. Kathy Hochul than Mr. de Blasio did with former Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo – is also in "active discussions"  with state officials about overhauling the entire highway, which runs about 18 miles, instead of focusing on just the 1.5-mile section that the city controls, city officials said.

But some elected officials, community leaders and residents have questioned whether the city really can implement a new plan in just five years and have expressed concerns about cutting back on extensive repairs to shore up the existing structure in the meantime.

"There are no easy solutions; if there were, we would have done it many years ago,"  said Brooklyn city councilman Lincoln Restler, who has criticized the Adams administration for not aggressively carrying out repairs. "This has been kicked down the road because it is so hard."

Hank Gutman, a former transportation commissioner under Mr. de Blasio who was a member of the B.Q.E. panel, said it was "wishful thinking"  to believe a new plan could be adopted, approved and built before the structure becomes unsafe. "They have run out of time and options without employing the measures that we announced and adopted last year,"  he said.

The B.Q.E. was built in sections between 1944 and 1948 during the era of Robert Moses, the influential planner who expanded the city's roadways. Long known for narrow lanes and potholes, the highway also has a cherished feature: a pedestrian promenade in Brooklyn Heights with sweeping views of the Manhattan skyline that is suspended over traffic by an unusual triple cantilever structure.

The roadway is supported by steel rebars inside concrete. They are corroding from road salt that seeped in through cracks, which have widened from freezing and thawing and moisture.

Sign up for the New York Today Newsletter  Each morning, get the latest on New York businesses, arts, sports, dining, style and more.

In 2016, city officials announced they would rehabilitate the 1.5-mile section between Atlantic Avenue and Sands Street in Brooklyn, warning that if nothing was done, they would have to restrict trucks by 2026 to reduce the weight on the highway.

The B.Q.E. panel later concluded the highway was deteriorating even faster, in part because of all the trucks exceeding the 40-ton federal weight limit. At the panel's urging, two of the six lanes were eliminated last August, which has reduced vehicle traffic.

In 2018, city officials presented two options to rebuild the highway, which were rejected by critics, including Mr. Adams, then the Brooklyn borough president. One plan called for closing the Brooklyn Heights promenade for up to six years and erecting a temporary highway over it to redirect traffic while work occurred below.

Many of these critics envisioned a city with fewer cars and saw the B.Q.E. overhaul as an opportunity to do something about the worsening traffic that has choked neighborhoods with gridlock and pollution and made streets more dangerous for pedestrians and cyclists.

Counterproposals were floated. The City Council weighed in with an $11 billion plan to tear down the highway and replace it with a three-mile-long tunnel. Scott Stringer, the former city comptroller, proposed limiting part of the highway to trucks and converting another part into a two-mile-long park.

There will be no consensus on the B.Q.E., said Samuel I. Schwartz, a transportation engineer who has worked on the highway. He recommended that Mr. Adams and Ms. Hochul just set a deadline to come up with a new plan – and then move ahead with it over almost certain opposition.

"The city and state have to be together on this,"  he said. "If they're willing to commit to a decision one year from now, then it's a good plan."

Hazel Crampton-Hays, a spokeswoman for the governor, said, "The state is ready to support the city on the rehabilitation project, including by securing federal infrastructure funding."

City officials said they will continue making necessary highway repairs, including some laid out in Mr. de Blasio's 20-year plan. They have set aside $100 million for a dedicated contractor to make repairs identified by regular inspections. Sensors were also installed on the cantilever last year to monitor its vibrations and movements.

Next year, the city will begin rebuilding parts of two deteriorating bridge sections near Grace Court and Clark Street in Brooklyn, which will allow restrictions on trucks to be delayed until 2028. An automated ticketing system to enforce truck weight limits is to go into operation early next year.

Because Mr. Adams wants to initiate a more permanent fix to the B.Q.E. within five years and is committed to current expressway repairs, city officials said that longer-term repairs, like extensive work on bridge decks and joints, will no longer be necessary.

But in recent months, many community leaders and residents have grown increasingly frustrated and concerned over what they see as the city's lack of transparency and urgency about the expressway.

Pia Scala-Zankel, a writer whose family's brownstone in Brooklyn Heights overlooks a section of the expressway, said that she has not seen any repairs being made below her home over the past year. She has repeatedly asked the city transportation agency for an update on the repairs, but has heard nothing. "It's like a slap in the face,"  she said.

Mr. Restler, the city councilman, said that any B.Q.E. plan would require "a meaningful degree of community consensus,"  given the complex governmental approvals and environmental reviews required. "No plan can be shoved down our throats by City Hall or anyone else,"  he said.

Administration officials said they have been taking time to review the B.Q.E. project and will commence public meetings this month to work with the community on a new expedited plan.

Lara Birnback, the executive director of the Brooklyn Heights Association, a leading neighborhood voice, said that local residents and drivers would welcome a plan sooner rather than later, though she noted, "There are so many caveats and ifs there – all of the pieces would have to line up in the right way for that to be feasible."

She added that many in the community hope the city will do more than simply patch up the aging highway.

"We've moved beyond that,"  she said. "People would be upset not to see something more transformative, more green and more 21st century."

- https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/13/nyregion/brooklyn-queens-expressway-construction-plan.html

Danged if they do, danged if they don't.

thenetwork

Likely (and sadly), a BQE rebuild aint gonna have any serious consideration until it becomes another West Side Highway problem child -‐ either comdemnation/closure of a section of roadway due to inspection, or a serious failure of part of the road.

bluecountry

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 06, 2022, 05:55:48 PM
Yes, Interstate 78 was supposed to use the Williamsburg Bridge to exit Manhattan, and Interstate 478 was to have been the designation for the spur to The Manhattan Bridge, not the Brooklyn Bridge.
With the cancelation of Interstate 78 through New York City in 1971, the 478 designation was moved to the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel (now the Hugh L. Carey Tunnel). The 478 designation was to have gone further north as part of the "Westway" proposal, which would have reconstructed the pre-existing West Side Highway to Interstate Standards. When this proposal died in 1985 due to intense opposition and lawsuits, the 478 designation was truncated to its present northern terminus.
If I-478 was on the Manhattan Bridge then what was the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel originally going to be named?

The Ghostbuster


Alps

Quote from: bluecountry on June 23, 2022, 06:48:56 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 06, 2022, 05:55:48 PM
Yes, Interstate 78 was supposed to use the Williamsburg Bridge to exit Manhattan, and Interstate 478 was to have been the designation for the spur to The Manhattan Bridge, not the Brooklyn Bridge.
With the cancelation of Interstate 78 through New York City in 1971, the 478 designation was moved to the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel (now the Hugh L. Carey Tunnel). The 478 designation was to have gone further north as part of the "Westway" proposal, which would have reconstructed the pre-existing West Side Highway to Interstate Standards. When this proposal died in 1985 due to intense opposition and lawsuits, the 478 designation was truncated to its present northern terminus.
If I-478 was on the Manhattan Bridge then what was the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel originally going to be named?
It became an Interstate late in the game, though still when West Side Highway was open all the way down. There was no Interstate designation before then.



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