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St. Louis freeways

Started by Chris, June 21, 2009, 02:55:07 PM

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rte66man

When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra


STLmapboy

Teenage STL area roadgeek.
Missouri>>>>>Illinois

STLmapboy

Just out of curiosity, does anyone have any pictures or links to websites with pictures of St Louis highways in the 1990s/early 2000s?
Teenage STL area roadgeek.
Missouri>>>>>Illinois

CapeCodder

Quote from: STLmapboy on September 08, 2020, 10:03:24 AM
Just out of curiosity, does anyone have any pictures or links to websites with pictures of St Louis highways in the 1990s/early 2000s?

There used to be a website devoted to St. Louis Highways run by Kim Harvey

ozarkman417

Quote from: STLmapboy on September 08, 2020, 10:03:24 AM
Just out of curiosity, does anyone have any pictures or links to websites with pictures of St Louis highways in the 1990s/early 2000s?
Someone dumped some old pictures of some St. Louis freeways from the 70s to the 90s on the Saint Louis subreddit today. See user page u/Dwaynep2018 and scroll down a bit.

STLmapboy

Quote from: ozarkman417 on September 13, 2020, 04:11:56 PM
Quote from: STLmapboy on September 08, 2020, 10:03:24 AM
Just out of curiosity, does anyone have any pictures or links to websites with pictures of St Louis highways in the 1990s/early 2000s?
Someone dumped some old pictures of some St. Louis freeways from the 70s to the 90s on the Saint Louis subreddit today. See user page u/Dwaynep2018 and scroll down a bit.
That same guy did a lot of Wikimedia contributions, including some old 80s-90s STL button copy.
Teenage STL area roadgeek.
Missouri>>>>>Illinois

Alex

Quote from: STLmapboy on September 13, 2020, 04:47:42 PM
Quote from: ozarkman417 on September 13, 2020, 04:11:56 PM
Quote from: STLmapboy on September 08, 2020, 10:03:24 AM
Just out of curiosity, does anyone have any pictures or links to websites with pictures of St Louis highways in the 1990s/early 2000s?
Someone dumped some old pictures of some St. Louis freeways from the 70s to the 90s on the Saint Louis subreddit today. See user page u/Dwaynep2018 and scroll down a bit.
That same guy did a lot of Wikimedia contributions, including some old 80s-90s STL button copy.

Same guy that copies others photos (with no credit given) and posts them as his own. He did it here and on various Facebook road groups.

The Ghostbuster

Interstate 170 was once proposed to extend further south, all the way to Interstate 55. Does anyone think that freeway should have been built, despite the extensive plowing-down of homes and businesses such an extension would have required?

Revive 755

#233
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 18, 2020, 02:10:38 PM
Interstate 170 was once proposed to extend further south, all the way to Interstate 55. Does anyone think that freeway should have been built, despite the extensive plowing-down of homes and businesses such an extension would have required?

Considering the amount of "plowing-down" the cities near the current south end did for commercial development instead . . .

Yes, it should have been built down.  It is a much needed missing link, aggravated by the lack of alternative connections near downtown St. Louis and a disjointed arterial system in St. Louis County.  It used to be even worse back when there wasn't even a direct connection from EB US 40 to NB I-170.  The lack of its construction also shows a great amount of NIMBYism to traffic that instead passes through the various inner suburbs (such as Webster Groves) that would have used the I-170 extension instead.  At the very least I-170 should have been extended to I-44 with a connection to River Des Peres Boulevard



Found the application to AASHO for the change from I-244 and I-255 to I-270 back in the 1970s.  The map on Page 5 of 9 has a version of what is now MO 370 with a slightly different alignment and a black, numberless interstate shield.

Also found the application for extending I-64 out to Wentzville, which had an alternative to designate US 40 through St. Louis as I-370 if Illinois did not agree.

And an application related to the purging of marked routes from St. Louis City around 1974.

skluth

Quote from: Revive 755 on October 03, 2020, 12:15:55 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 18, 2020, 02:10:38 PM
Interstate 170 was once proposed to extend further south, all the way to Interstate 55. Does anyone think that freeway should have been built, despite the extensive plowing-down of homes and businesses such an extension would have required?

Considering the amount of "plowing-down" the cities near the current south end did for commercial development instead . . .

Yes, it should have been built down.  It is a much needed missing link, aggravated by the lack of alternative connections near downtown St. Louis and a disjointed arterial system in St. Louis County.  It used to be even worse back when there wasn't even a direct connection from EB US 40 to NB I-170.  The lack of its construction also shows a great amount of NIMBYism to traffic that instead passes through the various inner suburbs (such as Webster Groves) that would have used the I-170 extension instead.  At the very least I-170 should have been extended to I-44 with a connection to River Des Peres Boulevard



Found the application to AASHO for the change from I-244 and I-255 to I-270 back in the 1970s.  The map on Page 5 of 9 has a version of what is now MO 370 with a slightly different alignment and a black, numberless interstate shield.

Also found the application for extending I-64 out to Wentzville, which had an alternative to designate US 40 through St. Louis as I-370 if Illinois did not agree.

And an application related to the purging of marked routes from St. Louis City around 1974.

IIRC, I-170 was supposed to run south through Webster Groves and connect to I-270 near Tesson Ferry. I moved to STL in the late 80's around when the effort had changed to extend I-170 SE along the River Des Peres corridor to I-55. There was even a short-lived effort to just upgrade River Des Peres Blvd including an extension north to I-44 and Big Bend Blvd which was heavily opposed by the Maplewood mayor and those along the corridor. I'm fairly sure the effort to build the commercial development came after most highway boosters had given up on the extension.

The Promenade at Brentwood developers paid better than market rate for the properties. This was primarily a middle class African-American neighborhood in a mostly white suburb, so building the highway would likely have never happened without a financial incentive. Almost all the property owners were happy to take the money offered by the developers after they opposed the state's efforts. The state would never have paid for as much, nor would have been as patient with the few holdouts.

When I checked your links, all I got was "404 - File or directory not found."

Revive 755

^ It seems to be a problem with the AASHTO Database.  The search parameters that should find the documents, along with the barcodes (which don't always appear to be unique) are below:

1) Document Type:  Application/Route Number:  2710/State MO:/Year 1974; Barcode 101277395
2) Document Type:  Application/Route Number:  64/State: MO/Year:  1987; Barcode 101277403
3) Document Type:  Application/Route Number:  67/State:  MO/Year:  1974; Barcode 101277395



As for the routing of I-170, it varied with the decade of the proposal.  One of the proposals in either the 1970's or 1980's ran closer to Laclede Station Road, but the one in the mid 1990's would have followed the Metrolink light rail line down to I-44 (with one alternative shifting the interchange with US 40 easterward), then parallel to the BNSF railroad down to end where I-55 crosses Green Park Road, possibly with a connection to MO 267.  The sketches I recall for the mid 1990's proposal had a stack at US 40, a stack at I-44 (with mainline 170 elevated due to the nearby railroads), and a half stack at I-55.

STLmapboy

Drove around for about 90 minutes today. A few updates:

-The 70E-W exit signs on 270 NB have been replaced (the congestion ahead blinker and 270 north signs remain). It is now a unisign with a divider in the middle and IIRC an "exits 20A-B" tab. New signs have been added elsewhere (including new "crossing double white line prohibited" signs ground mounted at either side of this BGS) and there is a new concrete barrier here, unpainted. All this is in addition to the new bridge pavement and median barrier over Fee Fee Creek and the railroad a year and a half ago.
-This part of 70 EB has new pavement, unstriped as yet.
-Not specifically freeway related, but the city of St Louis has blockaded some lanes on roads like Tucker and Market with concrete barriers. I believe the idea is to prevent street racing.
Teenage STL area roadgeek.
Missouri>>>>>Illinois

Revive 755

MoDOT has plans to make adjustments to the MO 364/MO 94/Muegge Road interchange.  The Muegge Road connector would change to a DDI-variant with the eastern crossover being grade separated using the existing bridge over the MO 364 main lanes.  The project would also remove the signal on MO 94 at Portwest Drive.

Link to project page
Link to project map

Stephane Dumas

Quote from: CapeCodder on September 13, 2020, 03:55:52 PM
Quote from: STLmapboy on September 08, 2020, 10:03:24 AM
Just out of curiosity, does anyone have any pictures or links to websites with pictures of St Louis highways in the 1990s/early 2000s?

There used to be a website devoted to St. Louis Highways run by Kim Harvey

Thanks to the Wayback Machine who archived the Andy's Highways kick-off page, I founded some remnants of Kim Harvey's pages.

https://web.archive.org/web/20020124020344/http://www.stlhighways.org/
https://web.archive.org/web/20000919174310/http://www.crosswinds.net/st-louis/~harv77/highways/270/index.htm
https://web.archive.org/web/20000920003824/http://www.crosswinds.net/~harv77/highways/junctions/

SkyPesos

#239
Not sure when it opened (probably the past week or 2?), but saw that the interchange between MO 364 and Gutermuth is on Google Maps now.

Also suprised to find out that US 40/61 north of MO K hasn't been 6 laned yet since I left the area 7 years ago. Hopefully there's a good reason for that, considering that MO 364 is 8 lane with an exit only lane per direction with an AADT of 35k-40k per direction in portions, while US 40/61 only has a slightly lower AADT (30-33k)

74/171FAN

#240
Quote from: SkyPesos on December 31, 2020, 04:34:24 PM
Not sure when it opened (probably the past week or 2?), but saw that the interchange between MO 364 and Gutermuth is on Google Maps now.

The project website states that it opened November 19th.

EDIT:  Has anyone in the area driven it to clarify what the exit number is?
I am now a PennDOT employee.  My opinions/views do not necessarily reflect the opinions/views of PennDOT.

m2tbone

Quote from: 74/171FAN on December 31, 2020, 04:41:15 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on December 31, 2020, 04:34:24 PM
Not sure when it opened (probably the past week or 2?), but saw that the interchange between MO 364 and Gutermuth is on Google Maps now.

The project website states that it opened November 19th.

EDIT:  Has anyone in the area driven it to clarify what the exit number is?

Yes, it's exit 6.




iPad Pro

CapeCodder

I just got back from that area yesterday. I used to take Gutermuth as the "back way"  when I worked at the Shop N' Save at Monticello Plaza. Fun Fact: they found Walter Scott's body floating in the cistern behind Jim Williams' house. The very same Walter Scott whose 1966 song The Cheater turned out to be prophetic.

jbrocato

Why is Missouri using two different styles of gore signs--putting the box style (such as that shown for 364/Gutermuth above) in some places and the stacked Minnesota-style in other places?  When MO started using the MN-style signs, they were putting them in all over the state, but now it seems that they have put new MN-style signs in some places and the other style elsewhere.  Shouldn't the entire state be consistent?

SkyPesos

Quote from: jbrocato on January 10, 2021, 10:25:46 PM
Why is Missouri using two different styles of gore signs--putting the box style (such as that shown for 364/Gutermuth above) in some places and the stacked Minnesota-style in other places?  When MO started using the MN-style signs, they were putting them in all over the state, but now it seems that they have put new MN-style signs in some places and the other style elsewhere.  Shouldn't the entire state be consistent?
From what I noticed, the newer 1-2 digit exit gore signs get the MUTCD box style, and the 3+ digit ones retain the vertical style. Before that, Missouri had TX style exit signs, with the exit number in a tab above the rest of the sign. Think the most recent of those installed are on the original section of MO 364

Ohio is even more inconsistant with this than Missouri. Columbus and Toledo are pretty much all vertical exit gore signs regardless of number of digits, Cleveland have the box style even on 4 digit (3 digit and suffix) exit numbers, and Cincinnati is mostly box style except on narrow gores, where it uses the vertical style.

SkyPesos

Some long-range St Charles County project plans from an article previously linked in the Missouri thread:
Quote
Included in the LRP is a project at I-70 and the Norfolk Southern Railroad. The plan calls for additional lanes to be added to I-70 under the railroad bridge in Wentzville. A daily bottleneck on the interstate, due to the curve of the highway and limited number of lanes between Route Z and Wentzville Parkway, causes delays for those trying to get home as well as freight trucks traveling through the region.

...

Key St. Charles County TIP projects awaiting final approval include:

I-70 from Convention Center Boulevard to Zumbehl Road: This nearly $36 million project would reconfigure the
I-70 interchange at Zumbehl Road to allow for better utilization of outer roads, reduced congestion, and improved safety along this heavily traveled segment of the highway.
I-70 Blanchette Bridge: The plan calls for the full length of the eastbound bridge to undergo rehabilitation at a cost of more than $46 million. In 2013, reconstruction of the westbound bridge, which was built in 1958, was completed; the eastbound span was built in 1978. In preparation for the construction, the Missouri Department of Transportation (MoDOT) has funded restriping of westbound MO 364 from the Missouri River to Jungs Station to add an additional traffic lane and help alleviate congestion during the bridge work.
Muegge Road to Highway 94/MO 364: This $16 million project will provide direct access from Muegge Road to Highway 94 in St. Charles.
Gateway Green Light: Signal optimization; $150,000
I-70 at MO 94 (First Capitol Drive): Conversion of interchange to diverging diamond; $2.6 million
Interstate Drive from Prospect Road to Quail Ridge Park Entrance: Reconstruction of shoulder and sidewalk;
$4 million
Central School Road at St. Peters Howell Road: Intersection improvements; $1.82 million
MO 370 at Salt River Road: New eastbound to southbound ramp; $3.3 million
Smart Parking Management System, City of St. Charles: Installation of parking lot sensors, cameras and phone app; $1 million
US 67: A portion of southbound Highway 67 between the Clark Bridge over the Mississippi River and Highway 94 will be elevated to avoid flooding-related closures; $3 million

County Executive Ehlmann also urged approval of a project at MO 141 and MO 364 in Creve Coeur which would ease congestion for drivers entering St. Charles County. Ehlmann lobbied that lengthening the right turn lanes to the eastbound and westbound ramps on to MO 364 will greatly increase traffic flow. This proposed project is included in the TIP.
As a point of reference, here's a 2016 AADT map of various highways in St Charles County. Red numbers are the AADT counts, and are for both directions added up:


My 2 thoughts
- For MO 94 between MO 364 and I-70, a widening of the remaining 4 lane sections to 6 lanes is planned as part of the Muegge interchange project. I think there was a study linked upthread of a possibility of turning MO 94 into a full freeway with one-way frontage roads on both sides. Though both solutions would still be bottlenecked by the interchange at I-70, which is currently an SPUI. Someone can correct me on this, but I'm not sure if a DDI will be that much effective, specifically for the WB 70 to WB 94 movement, than the current SPUI. I thought of a flyover for that movement, but that may be too costly for what its worth. Is there enough room to widen the WB 70 to WB 94 left turn from the current 2 lanes to 3 lanes?
- For the Convention Center to Zumbehl improvement on I-70, I wonder why the improvement area isn't extended west all the way to MO 370. According to the AADT map above, the AADT is actually higher west of Zumbehl than east of it. It's also only 6 lanes west of it, while it's 8 east of it. Also, the Cave Springs interchange have the same issues as Zumbehl for congestion.

SkyPesos

Found that on I-55 just north of the I-270 and US 67 interchanges, the median widens out a bit. Was this intentionally done to fit ramps for an extended I-170?

skluth

Quote from: SkyPesos on June 05, 2021, 06:05:06 PM
Found that on I-55 just north of the I-270 and US 67 interchanges, the median widens out a bit. Was this intentionally done to fit ramps for an extended I-170?

I doubt it. The original I-170 plans extended south from then US 40 through Brentwood and Webster Groves to I-270 near the Tesson Ferry interchange. I-55 was part of my daily commute for years and I don't remember hearing any reason for the wider median. The NB lanes are a bit elevated above the SB lanes as the highway slowly climbs up the hill around Lindbergh and Lemay Ferry. It's probably just a relic from when South County was largely farmland and they had room to split the original highway to make construction easier. 

Revive 755

Quote from: skluth on June 05, 2021, 07:43:44 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 05, 2021, 06:05:06 PM
Found that on I-55 just north of the I-270 and US 67 interchanges, the median widens out a bit. Was this intentionally done to fit ramps for an extended I-170?

I doubt it. The original I-170 plans extended south from then US 40 through Brentwood and Webster Groves to I-270 near the Tesson Ferry interchange. I-55 was part of my daily commute for years and I don't remember hearing any reason for the wider median. The NB lanes are a bit elevated above the SB lanes as the highway slowly climbs up the hill around Lindbergh and Lemay Ferry. It's probably just a relic from when South County was largely farmland and they had room to split the original highway to make construction easier. 

I've never seen a plan for the southern end of I-170 to tie into I-270.  The earliest had it tying into River Des Peres Boulevard near I-44.  All of the latter plans had it tying into I-55.  The last iteration around 1997 (which had I-170 following the BNSF railroad) had a half stack over Green Park Road with a connection to MO 267.

It does seem odd though that I-55 has the separate alignments there and not for any other spots.  South of I-255/I-270 there is a slight height difference between the SB and NB lanes that was more noticable before the last widening project that put in the concrete median barrier.

edwaleni

Quote from: Revive 755 on June 05, 2021, 10:59:36 PM
Quote from: skluth on June 05, 2021, 07:43:44 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 05, 2021, 06:05:06 PM
Found that on I-55 just north of the I-270 and US 67 interchanges, the median widens out a bit. Was this intentionally done to fit ramps for an extended I-170?

I doubt it. The original I-170 plans extended south from then US 40 through Brentwood and Webster Groves to I-270 near the Tesson Ferry interchange. I-55 was part of my daily commute for years and I don't remember hearing any reason for the wider median. The NB lanes are a bit elevated above the SB lanes as the highway slowly climbs up the hill around Lindbergh and Lemay Ferry. It's probably just a relic from when South County was largely farmland and they had room to split the original highway to make construction easier. 

I've never seen a plan for the southern end of I-170 to tie into I-270.  The earliest had it tying into River Des Peres Boulevard near I-44.  All of the latter plans had it tying into I-55.  The last iteration around 1997 (which had I-170 following the BNSF railroad) had a half stack over Green Park Road with a connection to MO 267.

It does seem odd though that I-55 has the separate alignments there and not for any other spots.  South of I-255/I-270 there is a slight height difference between the SB and NB lanes that was more noticable before the last widening project that put in the concrete median barrier.

It was built that way back in the 1960's. Where the road turns it sits on the side of a ridge.  So MoDOT "stepped" the highway around the ridge. If you drive by you will see bedrock on east sides of each side of the road. They essentially step cut the bedrock. Kind of like a farmer when they terrace a hill for easier planting and havesting.



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