What are the busiest four-way intersections in your area with no turn lanes whatsoever on any of the approaches?
It can be any type of intersection, although signalized ones will probably be busiest.
Does something like this count?
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8750831,-87.9130031,51m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en
You can turn in any appropriate direction, but there's no dedicated lanes for turns.
Thousands of examples in NJ. Here's 2. https://goo.gl/maps/XztSDSPsoMB2
In fact, I want to say the majority of intersections across the country don't have turn lanes. Most of them are just small side roads that don't necessitate additional pavement for the turning lanes.
Quote from: webny99 on May 12, 2017, 10:47:05 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 12, 2017, 10:20:12 AM
Thousands of examples in NJ. Here's 2. https://goo.gl/maps/XztSDSPsoMB2
In fact, I want to say the majority of intersections across the country don't have turn lanes. Most of them are just small side roads that don't necessitate additional pavement for the turning lanes.
Hence "busiest" :D
It's NJ. They all qualify! :biggrin: But yeah, I did miss that in the post. In reference to NJ, they have gotten *better* in installing turn lanes. But they are still often short lanes, and a frustratingly high number of them don't have left turn arrows.
Not many busy ones in my neck of the woods. Woodlawn/Dougas and Woodlawn/Lincoln would be contenders, but they don't really make traffic back up much.
This one in my town always backs up during evening rush hour, and/or when there's a wake at the funeral home (white house on the left). One car gets too far to the right to make a left, and it backs up over a half mile (if you rotate 180 degrees, it backs up around the corner in the distance).
https://goo.gl/maps/FjFoR6qq4jD2
What drives me nuts is that in my area we have intersections with turning lanes but not makes as to which lane is for what. Is the left lane for left turns only or is the right lane for right turns only? who knows?
Quote from: dvferyance on May 12, 2017, 08:56:12 PM
What drives me nuts is that in my area we have intersections with turning lanes but not makes as to which lane is for what. Is the left lane for left turns only or is the right lane for right turns only? who knows?
If there's no lane markings or signs denoting that the left/right lane are left/right turn only, then both lanes one could either turn or go straight (assuming the intersection is not a T). Are you talking about something like this? https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8622686,-74.5701776,3a,75y,94.81h,64.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSmHNysTlpPMQUvXuvr6pPQ!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fmaps%2Fphotothumb%2Ffd%2Fv1%3Fbpb%3DChAKDnNlYXJjaC5UQUNUSUxFEkAKEgnJ7SdRE6DDiRHpD1Xl6S0YvRIKDegXWxgVQoCN0xoSCe2_ziYWoMOJETwPBx_haAnuKgoN6BdbGBVCgI3TGgQIVhBW%26gl%3DUS!7i3328!8i1664!6m1!1e1
Vancouver, BC is infamous for its long, wide boulevards with no turning lanes. Here's a large junction with no turn lanes downtown (Georgia & Burrard):
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FD68thaL.png&hash=3fb381ca91917b97e90d5ddb22833e3d930043e2)
Harrisburg city probably has a busier one, but Lisburn Road at Rossmoyne Road has no turning lanes. The AADT on Lisburn there is 9,400 and most of that traffic is AM traffic going left towards Rossmoyne Business Park and US 15. Lisburn frequently backs up past Arcona Rd before 9 am.
3101 Lisburn Rd
https://goo.gl/maps/VsvMxEvo3VR2
Nexus 6P
NCDOT is generally very good at adding turning lanes to all of their busy intersections, however, there are a few examples of busy intersections which lack turn lanes.
This intersection between Unionville-Indian Trail Road, Indian Trail Road, and Matthews-Indian Trail Road is rather busy during rush hour. Most of the roads serving Union County are two lanes, even for large suburban areas, which can make for awful backup in the morning and evening.
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.0786289,-80.66683,16.82z
I had a cop once tell my dad that on roads with no turning lane that its illegal to pass on the right despite their being room for two cars to be there safely and most of all being safe.
Deerfield Blvd in Orlando is that way and now with the new Tapestry Development on Carroll Street in Kissimmee, no one thought to add a turn lane at the intersection leading in and out of it. No room to pass there unlike Deerfield which is two lanes but could be striped for three.
US-24 (8-lane boulevard) crosses Plymouth Road (6-lane boulevard) with no turn lanes at the main intersection. This is a Michigan Left/Parallel Flow Intersection and i don't know if it really counts to what the OP is after.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3712855,-83.2756547,83m/data=!3m1!1e3
There are parts of Market Street in downtown Sam Francisco where as a private motorist, one can not make a turn onto the boulevard, or if already on cannot turn off.
Mission Street in the central part of the Mission District has a bizarre traffic pattern which is the opposite. You can't go straight on the street, and must turn off after two blocks. This repeats between 16th and 24th.
Quote from: catsynth on June 15, 2017, 01:54:05 PM
There are parts of Market Street in downtown Sam Francisco where as a private motorist, one can not make a turn onto the boulevard, or if already on cannot turn off.
Similar setup to this on Canal Street in New Orleans. Just a bunch of NO LEFT TURN signs...
https://www.google.com/maps/@29.9511386,-90.0659644,3a,75y,264.41h,83.75t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-Va_kE0vy4DDEqAkkb6K_Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Also in San Francisco, long stretches of 19th Avenue in the Sunset area have no left turns.
I was mentioning this intersection in another thread, so I thought I might mention it here as well.
Atlantic Ave & Five Mile Line Road (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1535007,-77.4753408,3a,75y,51.28h,92.76t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s3BOvY3rMY0xqLebx5izY9Q!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D3BOvY3rMY0xqLebx5izY9Q%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D272.24615%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1) in Penfield, NY.
Volumes are around 16,000 on the western leg, 10,000 on the eastern leg, and 10,000 on the northern and southern legs.
Is it possible, from those numbers, to calculate the total number of cars that pass through the intersection, as well as the number of cars making each of the twelve movements?
My estimate is around 24 - 25K, which could be one of the highest in the US, if not the world (obviously only including roads with one lane per direction). Thousands and thousands of cars use the shoulders here every day, especially southbound and eastbound. I believe it is practically unheard of in the US for these type of volumes to be relying on the shoulder as a travel lane on a main state route like this.
Interestingly, this intersection is slated for replacement with a roundabout in 2020.
Approximate PM peak hour volumes: 1050 EB, 600 WB, 550 NB, 400 SB for a total of 2600, divide by 60 minutes = 43.3 cars per minute.
What types of analyses have been done regarding the max capacity of roundabouts?
Can a single lane roundabout handle 43 cars per minute, as this one will need to?
Will the current delays at peak times dissolve, or get worse?
There are a lot of intersections around here with no turn lanes, so trying to pick the busiest one would be rather difficult. The intersection that comes to mind when I see this thread, however, is the "Barnes Dance" intersection at 7th & H NW near Verizon Center. Not only are there no turn lanes, no turns have been permitted at all since the "Barnes Dance" was implemented, although a lot of drivers (especially Uber drivers and cabbies) think that rule doesn't apply to them. The police do sometimes enforce it, too; I recently saw some idiot make a right turn directly ahead of a cop, who immediately put on the lights and pulled him over.
https://goo.gl/maps/sUE65XEkcob1ksFBA
Quote from: webny99 on June 19, 2019, 08:58:25 AM
Atlantic Ave & Five Mile Line Road (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1535007,-77.4753408,3a,75y,51.28h,92.76t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s3BOvY3rMY0xqLebx5izY9Q!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D3BOvY3rMY0xqLebx5izY9Q%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D272.24615%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1) in Penfield, NY.
... My estimate is around 24 - 25K ...
Interestingly, this intersection is slated for replacement with a roundabout in 2020 ... Can a single lane roundabout handle 43 cars per minute, as this one will need to?
According to a WisDOT manual published last month (https://wisconsindot.gov/rdwy/fdm/fd-11-26.pdf) (.pdf warning), 25k AADT is the cutoff between single-lane and multi-lane roundabouts–along with the caveat that "capacities vary substantially depending on entering traffic volumes and turning movements."
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 19, 2019, 09:48:57 AM
There are a lot of intersections around here with no turn lanes, so trying to pick the busiest one would be rather difficult. The intersection that comes to mind when I see this thread, however, is the "Barnes Dance" intersection at 7th & H NW near Verizon Center. Not only are there no turn lanes, no turns have been permitted at all since the "Barnes Dance" was implemented, although a lot of drivers (especially Uber drivers and cabbies) think that rule doesn't apply to them. The police do sometimes enforce it, too; I recently saw some idiot make a right turn directly ahead of a cop, who immediately put on the lights and pulled him over.
https://goo.gl/maps/sUE65XEkcob1ksFBA
I can see Uber drivers doing it because their GPS told them to. Honestly, the Uber GPS has a lot to be desired, and frequently recommends turns and u-turns where they're not permitted.
Steve, Mike, Scott, and even Eric can comfirm this one...today (or tomorrow)
C-bus, Broad & High: https://goo.gl/maps/nwHJH4CeNPTZqD848
Quote from: kphoger on June 19, 2019, 02:16:04 PM
According to a WisDOT manual published last month (https://wisconsindot.gov/rdwy/fdm/fd-11-26.pdf) (.pdf warning), 25k AADT is the cutoff between single-lane and multi-lane roundabouts–along with the caveat that "capacities vary substantially depending on entering traffic volumes and turning movements."
Thanks! That document contains a lot of interesting info. Given typical volumes of right around 25K at this intersection, I'm really curious to see what happens. It would be silly to create a multi-lane roundabout without widening the entire road segment, which I don't see happening (though it's certainly needed).
On the other hand, there is this (below), which actually discourages a roundabout at this type of location (the end of a coordinated signal system). Signal timing here is
perfect, yet there are still backups at the existing signal. Eastbound vehicles arrive in extremely lengthy waves of 25 - 40 vehicles at a time, and I wonder if that might be a bit much for a single lane roundabout to handle. Said eastbound traffic disperses as follows: roughly 60% continuing east, 30% turning left (north), and 10% or less turning right (south).
Quote
17.2 Adjacent Intersections and Highway Segments and Coordinated Signal Systems
It is generally undesirable to have a roundabout located near a signalized intersection. A strategic level traffic
assessment of system conditions of a series of roundabouts analysis is needed to determine how appropriate it
is to locate a roundabout within a coordinated signal network. There may be situations where an intersection
within the coordinated signal system requires a very long cycle which is caused by high side road traffic or large
percentage of turning movements and is dictating operations and reducing the overall efficiency for the
coordinated system... A traffic analysis is needed to evaluate each specific location.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 19, 2019, 02:26:37 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 19, 2019, 09:48:57 AM
There are a lot of intersections around here with no turn lanes, so trying to pick the busiest one would be rather difficult. The intersection that comes to mind when I see this thread, however, is the "Barnes Dance" intersection at 7th & H NW near Verizon Center. Not only are there no turn lanes, no turns have been permitted at all since the "Barnes Dance" was implemented, although a lot of drivers (especially Uber drivers and cabbies) think that rule doesn't apply to them. The police do sometimes enforce it, too; I recently saw some idiot make a right turn directly ahead of a cop, who immediately put on the lights and pulled him over.
https://goo.gl/maps/sUE65XEkcob1ksFBA
I can see Uber drivers doing it because their GPS told them to. Honestly, the Uber GPS has a lot to be desired, and frequently recommends turns and u-turns where they're not permitted.
I'm not inclined to be so generous to them, seeing as how I've routinely seen them driving in the pylon-separated bike lane on L Street and generally doing whatever they want.
Tangentially related question - what is the best way to handle an intersection with no turning lanes?
Traffic signal, four-way stop, or roundabout?
Quote from: webny99 on June 20, 2019, 10:11:53 AM
Tangentially related question - what is the best way to handle an intersection with no turning lanes?
Traffic signal, four-way stop, or roundabout?
I absolutely despise four-way stops. If there's enough space for a roundabout, then there must also be space for turning lanes. I'd therefore say a 4-phase stoplight setup would be best.
I too hate four-way stops, and I believe they are becoming less and less sustainable over time. They're annoying
with traffic, because drivers are either shy, creating delays; or aggressive, creating confusion and rage. And they're annoying
without traffic, too, because why would I come to a complete stop in the Middle of Nowhere for no good reason?
Quote from: kphoger on June 20, 2019, 02:13:11 PM
a 4-phase stoplight setup would be best.
So, one phase per direction?
Quote from: webny99 on June 20, 2019, 02:34:13 PM
So, one phase per direction?
Two main possibilities:
(1) Each direction gets a phase with protected left turns.
(2) Each road only has protected turns in one direction (hopefully the busier turning movement!).
Quote from: kphoger on June 20, 2019, 04:32:55 PM
(2) Each road only has protected turns in one direction (hopefully the busier turning movement!).
This is pretty common in Vancouver (https://goo.gl/maps/P4beHsjCV5EAUJBx9). Split phasing (your first option -- very rare in BC) is really not necessary unless there's option lanes as part of a dual turn setup (though even then, not unheard of (https://goo.gl/maps/VUWvtApHZgq5XSU17)). What's better is a protected/permissive left for the busier direction, usually leading (sometimes lagging with an accompanying "no left turn" for the other direction). Most I've seen only last about 4-8 seconds, but seem to help where left turning traffic is really busy.
What I haven't yet seen done, is a signal for each direction that allows a protected phase, but having the arrow activate only for the busier direction during rush hour (changing depending on whether it's morning or night).
A third option is a two-phase signal, with a widened shoulder to allow traffic to "undertake" any left-turning traffic.
Quote from: webny99 on June 20, 2019, 02:34:13 PM
shy
I wouldn't necessarily say the driver is "shy", there's times where some idiot thinks he has the right of way when you clearly were there way before him. Being cautious and taking it a little slow could end up avoiding a wreck which is way more worth it than getting through the intersection 2 seconds faster.
^ Either "cautious" or "inattentive" could also be applicable instead of shy, depending on the circumstances.
Basically, pay attention to the established order and go when it's your turn. It is the indecision that irks me to no end. If you were definite as to your intention from the outset, so much less of everyone else's time would be wasted waiting for you to figure it out.
Quote from: webny99 on June 20, 2019, 09:20:45 PM
^ Either "cautious" or "inattentive" could also be applicable instead of shy, depending on the circumstances.
Basically, pay attention to the established order and go when it's your turn. It is the indecision that irks me to no end. If you were definite as to your intention from the outset, so much less of everyone else's time would be wasted waiting for you to figure it out.
Well, if you push forward too fast when it is your turn, your legally in the right, but some idiot on the right might also do the same thing, illegally, and cause a crash. Going a little slower and more cautiously could reduce the chances of a crash. Taking the example I just provided above, if you went a little slower out or waited a second, you make sure no one else is going and the intersection is clear.
But I agree, don't sit there for more than 2-4 seconds, but at the same time, don't expect the car to dart out immediately.
Quote from: kphoger on June 20, 2019, 04:32:55 PM
(2) Each road only has protected turns in one direction (hopefully the busier turning movement!).
In this case, eastbound and southbound.
Just so I'm clear, phases would then be as follows (?):
Eastbound only w/ protected left
Eastbound and westbound, permissive lefts
Southbound only w/ protected left
Northbound and southbound, permissive lefts
Basically, this seems to advantage EB and SB thru traffic at the expense of NB and WB thru traffic.
Quote from: jakeroot
A third option is a two-phase signal, with a widened shoulder to allow traffic to "undertake" any left-turning traffic.
This is essentially how the example I mentioned functions, which is less than ideal for the volumes being handled.
Quote from: jakeroot on June 20, 2019, 07:26:05 PM
A third option is a two-phase signal, with a widened shoulder to allow traffic to "undertake" any left-turning traffic.
Not a solution in states that prohibit driving on the shoulder.
Quote from: webny99 on June 20, 2019, 09:46:48 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 20, 2019, 04:32:55 PM
(2) Each road only has protected turns in one direction (hopefully the busier turning movement!).
In this case, eastbound and southbound.
Just so I'm clear, phases would then be as follows (?):
Eastbound only w/ protected left
Eastbound and westbound, permissive lefts
Southbound only w/ protected left
Northbound and southbound, permissive lefts
Basically, this seems to advantage EB and SB thru traffic at the expense of NB and WB thru traffic.
Exactly. And this is precisely how the intersection at
Douglas and Woodlawn (https://goo.gl/maps/NHLHA3JdtiTww3ni7) works here in Wichita (even the directions are the same).
Hmmm. That isn't really done around here, and I'm not sure it would work at the intersection in question.
The problem is that in the morning rush, westbound backs up even as-is, without the extra wait time of the eastbound protected phase.
And in the afternoon rush, northbound backs up even as-is, without the extra wait time of the southbound protected phase.
The optimum solution would be: WB and SB get the protected phases in the AM, and EB and NB get the protected phases in the PM.
I do like the idea of the thru traffic in one direction getting two of the four phases. That would certainly be a necessity here to handle the eastbound volumes (around 1200 per hour between 4 and 6 PM).
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 19, 2019, 02:26:37 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 19, 2019, 09:48:57 AM
There are a lot of intersections around here with no turn lanes, so trying to pick the busiest one would be rather difficult. The intersection that comes to mind when I see this thread, however, is the "Barnes Dance" intersection at 7th & H NW near Verizon Center. Not only are there no turn lanes, no turns have been permitted at all since the "Barnes Dance" was implemented, although a lot of drivers (especially Uber drivers and cabbies) think that rule doesn't apply to them. The police do sometimes enforce it, too; I recently saw some idiot make a right turn directly ahead of a cop, who immediately put on the lights and pulled him over.
https://goo.gl/maps/sUE65XEkcob1ksFBA
I can see Uber drivers doing it because their GPS told them to. Honestly, the Uber average GPS has a lot to be desired, and frequently recommends turns and u-turns where they're not permitted.
FIFY
If a lane is wide enough to fit 2 cars, does that count?
Quote from: webny99 on June 20, 2019, 02:34:13 PM
I too hate four-way stops, and I believe they are becoming less and less sustainable over time. They're annoying with traffic, because drivers are either shy, creating delays; or aggressive, creating confusion and rage. And they're annoying without traffic, too, because why would I come to a complete stop in the Middle of Nowhere for no good reason?
If there is indeed "no good reason" then that's one thing. 4 way stops can be a bit awkward but they make it much easier to yield to pedestrians. Plus there are many low visibility 2 way/1 way stops that would benefit from an extra set of stop signs.
Quote from: roadman on June 21, 2019, 04:49:57 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 19, 2019, 02:26:37 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 19, 2019, 09:48:57 AM
There are a lot of intersections around here with no turn lanes, so trying to pick the busiest one would be rather difficult. The intersection that comes to mind when I see this thread, however, is the "Barnes Dance" intersection at 7th & H NW near Verizon Center. Not only are there no turn lanes, no turns have been permitted at all since the "Barnes Dance" was implemented, although a lot of drivers (especially Uber drivers and cabbies) think that rule doesn't apply to them. The police do sometimes enforce it, too; I recently saw some idiot make a right turn directly ahead of a cop, who immediately put on the lights and pulled him over.
https://goo.gl/maps/sUE65XEkcob1ksFBA
I can see Uber drivers doing it because their GPS told them to. Honestly, the Uber average GPS has a lot to be desired, and frequently recommends turns and u-turns where they're not permitted.
FIFY
every uber driver knows that uber nav is especially bad. I'va had at least one situation where waze respected a road's "no left turn" restriction when uber's own app didn't
Quote from: roadman on June 21, 2019, 04:49:57 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 19, 2019, 02:26:37 PM
I can see Uber drivers doing it because their GPS told them to. Honestly, the Uber average GPS has a lot to be desired, and frequently recommends turns and u-turns where they're not permitted.
FIFY
Maybe true at one point, but not anymore. As a Lyft driver, using Waze to navigate to around 50 different addresses every week (I work part time), I very seldom (maybe once a month) have Waze suggest something that perhaps isn't legal. But even then, it's usually because of a new "no left turn" sign or something that it may not know about.
Quote from: kphoger on June 21, 2019, 02:11:40 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 20, 2019, 07:26:05 PM
A third option is a two-phase signal, with a widened shoulder to allow traffic to "undertake" any left-turning traffic.
Not a solution in states that prohibit driving on the shoulder.
Meant to say "widened
roadway". Basically this:
Quote from: yand on June 21, 2019, 05:59:29 PM
If a lane is wide enough to fit 2 cars, does that count?
In most states, passing on the right is permitted when the roadway is wide enough to permit two lanes of traffic (excluding the shoulder). There are some states that allow drivers to use the shoulder to pass on the right, but not very many. I think Texas permits this.
In CT, what bugs me is when there's room on the pavement for a turning lane but there are none. Happens quite often in this state.
I used to know of an example, but traffic could get so bad that very recently some turning lanes were finally added.
Quote from: Kulerage on June 23, 2019, 05:58:31 PM
I used to know of an example, but traffic could get so bad that very recently some turning lanes were finally added.
What was the setup? Two lanes each direction, or one lane each direction? (or more?)
Quote from: jakeroot on June 24, 2019, 01:36:47 PM
Quote from: Kulerage on June 23, 2019, 05:58:31 PM
I used to know of an example, but traffic could get so bad that very recently some turning lanes were finally added.
What was the setup? Two lanes each direction, or one lane each direction? (or more?)
There were two lanes for going forward, a left turn lane, but no right turning lane, meaning you had to use the rightmost straight lane for making right turns.
Quote from: Kulerage on June 27, 2019, 03:50:43 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 24, 2019, 01:36:47 PM
Quote from: Kulerage on June 23, 2019, 05:58:31 PM
I used to know of an example, but traffic could get so bad that very recently some turning lanes were finally added.
What was the setup? Two lanes each direction, or one lane each direction? (or more?)
There were two lanes for going forward, a left turn lane, but no right turning lane, meaning you had to use the rightmost straight lane for making right turns.
... so if there was a left turn lane, I guess it wouldn't have counted.
Quote from: jakeroot on June 22, 2019, 11:17:18 AM
I think Texas permits this.
Yes, they do. It's not the most comfortable thing doing, though there's been times where the speed limit is 75 mph on a two-lane, and you'll get stuck behind some little car doing 60 mph and there's cars coming from the other direction. That's really the only time I've used the shoulder to get around them. I try to pass traditionally when I can though, in the opposing lane when it's clear. I don't trust driving on the shoulder, especially when I'm not familiar with the road and it could just drop off at any time, or there's debris and rocks all over it, it's not fully paved, etc.
Dunno, but a lot of the major thoroughfares in inner Northern VA (Arlington, Alexandria, Annandale) are two-lanes in each direction (e.g. Glebe, Columbia Pike).
So you wind up during rush hour in a situation where you play the game of "do I cruise in the left lane and risk being stuck behind a left-turn" or "cruise in the right lane and risk getting stuck behind a stopped Metrobus). 95Hoo will know what I'm talking about.
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 27, 2019, 07:38:27 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 22, 2019, 11:17:18 AM
I think Texas permits this.
Yes, they do. It's not the most comfortable thing doing, though there's been times where the speed limit is 75 mph on a two-lane, and you'll get stuck behind some little car doing 60 mph and there's cars coming from the other direction. That's really the only time I've used the shoulder to get around them. I try to pass traditionally when I can though, in the opposing lane when it's clear. I don't trust driving on the shoulder, especially when I'm not familiar with the road and it could just drop off at any time, or there's debris and rocks all over it, it's not fully paved, etc.
Passing on the shoulder is not allowed in Texas if the car you're passing isn't slowing down, stopped, disabled, or preparing to turn left. The other driver choosing to go 60 mph instead of 75 is not a legal reason to pass on the shoulder. What Texas allows in that scenario is for the
slower driver to use the shoulder and let the
faster driver pass on the left. This is all according to
Sec. 545.058 of the Texas Transportation Code (https://texas.public.law/statutes/tex._transp._code_section_545.058).
As for Jake's original assertion: Sec. 545.057 stipulates that the vehicle being passed on the right must be turning left or about to turn left. So that would not apply to using any extra lane space for turning
right next to other vehicles going
straight.
Corner of Shattuck Road and Hermansau Road in Saginaw, MI.
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4509861,-83.9563376,3a,75y,252.25h,90.54t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5sIsw1QYHzd-_8okkzywTQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Another one not too far from the location above at the corner of Schust Road and N. Michigan Road
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4720445,-83.9458781,3a,75y,356.64h,88.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sxTsI5BPSxcDb9BXDfw5flw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Quote from: kphoger on June 27, 2019, 09:46:18 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 27, 2019, 07:38:27 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 22, 2019, 11:17:18 AM
I think Texas permits this.
Yes, they do. It's not the most comfortable thing doing, though there's been times where the speed limit is 75 mph on a two-lane, and you'll get stuck behind some little car doing 60 mph and there's cars coming from the other direction. That's really the only time I've used the shoulder to get around them. I try to pass traditionally when I can though, in the opposing lane when it's clear. I don't trust driving on the shoulder, especially when I'm not familiar with the road and it could just drop off at any time, or there's debris and rocks all over it, it's not fully paved, etc.
Passing on the shoulder is not allowed in Texas if the car you're passing isn't slowing down, stopped, disabled, or preparing to turn left. The other driver choosing to go 60 mph instead of 75 is not a legal reason to pass on the shoulder. What Texas allows in that scenario is for the slower driver to use the shoulder and let the faster driver pass on the left. This is all according to Sec. 545.058 of the Texas Transportation Code (https://texas.public.law/statutes/tex._transp._code_section_545.058).
As for Jake's original assertion: Sec. 545.057 stipulates that the vehicle being passed on the right must be turning left or about to turn left. So that would not apply to using any extra lane space for turning right next to other vehicles going straight.
I had been told by a friend in Texas it was legal if the path was clear, but I suppose they were wrong looking at the law more closely. Probably that piece about using the shoulder to allow -another- vehicle to pass is what the confusion was. I had thought it was weird being legal, and my instinct was right. I had only done it a couple of times, and I guess I won't be doing it again.
Quote from: roadman65 on May 16, 2017, 11:45:16 PM
I had a cop once tell my dad that on roads with no turning lane that its illegal to pass on the right despite their being room for two cars to be there safely and most of all being safe.
Deerfield Blvd in Orlando is that way and now with the new Tapestry Development on Carroll Street in Kissimmee, no one thought to add a turn lane at the intersection leading in and out of it. No room to pass there unlike Deerfield which is two lanes but could be striped for three.
Remember what I said about the lack of turn lanes at the roads to the General James A. Van Fleet State Trail on FL 50? Remember that after that bridge over the old SAL ROW was torn down they put an east to north turn lane leading to the former line
north of the trail?
:confused: :crazy:
Quote from: webny99 on June 20, 2019, 02:34:13 PM
I too hate four-way stops, and I believe they are becoming less and less sustainable over time. They're annoying with traffic, because drivers are either shy, creating delays; or aggressive, creating confusion and rage. And they're annoying without traffic, too, because why would I come to a complete stop in the Middle of Nowhere for no good reason?
Quote from: kphoger on June 20, 2019, 02:13:11 PM
a 4-phase stoplight setup would be best.
So, one phase per direction?
The biggest thing I hate about four way stops is when you are approaching one and a car is stopped on the cross street that you are crossing and obviously have to stop for since it's a four way stop, I hate how cars will wait for you to come to a complete stop before moving despite the fact that they have already stopped and you still have to stop. A lot of times that delays you from going through the intersection since you have to wait for that car to go through like they could have done before you came to your stop. Otherwise I don't mind them and there are still quite a few of them around my area.
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on June 27, 2019, 07:45:30 PM
Dunno, but a lot of the major thoroughfares in inner Northern VA (Arlington, Alexandria, Annandale) are two-lanes in each direction (e.g. Glebe, Columbia Pike).
So you wind up during rush hour in a situation where you play the game of "do I cruise in the left lane and risk being stuck behind a left-turn" or "cruise in the right lane and risk getting stuck behind a stopped Metrobus). 95Hoo will know what I'm talking about.
Columbia Pike is a classic example of that. I used to commute on that road and it was difficult trying to balance the two issues you note in terms of when to change lanes.
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 28, 2019, 09:27:39 AM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on June 27, 2019, 07:45:30 PM
So you wind up during rush hour in a situation where you play the game of "do I cruise in the left lane and risk being stuck behind a left-turn" or "cruise in the right lane and risk getting stuck behind a stopped Metrobus). 95Hoo will know what I'm talking about.
Columbia Pike is a classic example of that. I used to commute on that road and it was difficult trying to balance the two issues you note in terms of when to change lanes.
I think this happens on pretty much any four lane road that lacks turning lanes. A stretch of a mile or so near me comes to mind where changing lanes 5 to 7 times within a mile is par for the course. First you want the left lane to avoid slowdowns as traffic turns right at a T-junction. Then immediately move right to avoid left turning traffic into streets and driveways. Then left again, then right again. And eventually, two lanes merge into one. Sometimes you get ahead big time, sometimes you just can't win. It's a fun, but very tiring, game!
Quote from: Kulerage on June 27, 2019, 03:50:43 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 24, 2019, 01:36:47 PM
Quote from: Kulerage on June 23, 2019, 05:58:31 PM
I used to know of an example, but traffic could get so bad that very recently some turning lanes were finally added.
What was the setup? Two lanes each direction, or one lane each direction? (or more?)
There were two lanes for going forward, a left turn lane, but no right turning lane, meaning you had to use the rightmost straight lane for making right turns.
Could you post a Google Maps link? Not sure your example fits the OP's criteria.
Quote from: kphoger on June 27, 2019, 09:46:18 PM
As for Jake's original assertion: Sec. 545.057 stipulates that the vehicle being passed on the right must be turning left or about to turn left. So that would not apply to using any extra lane space for turning right next to other vehicles going straight.
Does Texas permit passing in the shoulder when vehicles are presenting an obstruction in the primary lane of travel? My earlier assertion was simply that you may pass on the right (if the roadway is wide enough to permit such a maneuver), if there is enough room to do so. The car being passed on the right did not have to be turning. Just traveling below the speed limit.
Quote from: jakeroot on June 28, 2019, 04:36:08 PM
Does Texas permit passing in the shoulder when vehicles are presenting an obstruction in the primary lane of travel? My earlier assertion was simply that you may pass on the right (if the roadway is wide enough to permit such a maneuver), if there is enough room to do so. The car being passed on the right did not have to be turning. Just traveling below the speed limit.
The only things similar to the 'presenting an obstruction' idea are these:
Quote from: Texas Transportation Code, Sec. 545.058
An operator may drive on an improved shoulder to the right of the main traveled portion of a roadway if that operation is necessary and may be done safely, but only:
(4) to pass another vehicle that is ... disabled ...
(7) to avoid a collision.
So, no, a driver merely going a bit slower than you are doesn't count.
Sec. 545.057
does allow you to pass on the right (but not the shoulder) on a one-way road as long as the road is wide enough, but that's still not the situation anyone is describing here.
Quote from: webny99 on June 27, 2019, 04:10:38 PM
Quote from: Kulerage on June 27, 2019, 03:50:43 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 24, 2019, 01:36:47 PM
Quote from: Kulerage on June 23, 2019, 05:58:31 PM
I used to know of an example, but traffic could get so bad that very recently some turning lanes were finally added.
What was the setup? Two lanes each direction, or one lane each direction? (or more?)
There were two lanes for going forward, a left turn lane, but no right turning lane, meaning you had to use the rightmost straight lane for making right turns.
... so if there was a left turn lane, I guess it wouldn't have counted.
Yes. I dunno what came over me that day.
Quote from: webny99 on June 21, 2019, 02:57:44 PM
Hmmm. That isn't really done around here, and I'm not sure it would work at the intersection in question.
The problem is that in the morning rush, westbound backs up even as-is, without the extra wait time of the eastbound protected phase.
And in the afternoon rush, northbound backs up even as-is, without the extra wait time of the southbound protected phase.
The optimum solution would be: WB and SB get the protected phases in the AM, and EB and NB get the protected phases in the PM.
I do like the idea of the thru traffic in one direction getting two of the four phases. That would certainly be a necessity here to handle the eastbound volumes (around 1200 per hour between 4 and 6 PM).
Basically, a 4-way intersection with one lane in each direction could get stuck up with left turners. Almost always, there is enough room for people to sneak around using the right "shoulder" (or parking lane, or just the mere widening at the intersection) assuming that only one car is turning left and that the car turning left is right on the yellow line to give the people behind him maximum room to manuever around. In your intersection, it seems like that may only be the case in 2 of the 4 incoming directions without having to drive on grass.
(This is standard on many single lane per direction streets here. Ofen the streets have room for parking, so there is room to pass on the right through the intersection. IMO, this is smoother than 2 lanes per direction because the cars stuck behind the left turner would have to change lanes into another lane of moving traffic as opposed to changing lanes to the parking lane just to pass through the intersection. Obviously at really busy points this won't work, like if there are multiple people turning, but when that is common, then the parking lanes get removed in favor of a proper turn lane.)
Is su;ch a movement considered passing on the right? I'm not passing a vehicle moving slowly, I'm passing a vehicle that is stopped. I beleive that if you were on a 2 lane roadway and a car has double parked, you should be able to go around a double yellow lane in order to pass the stopped vehicle (when there is no opposing traffic of course) even though it will be illegal to do that around a vehicle that is driving slow. I believe it is also OK to pass around really slow vehicles like horse carriages and bicycles.
But as far as your question about allowing a protected left at different directions at different times, that should be OK so long as you make sure not to violate yellow trap in your signaling. Since FYAs aren't used without a dedicated left turn lane, it means that the protected left must be leading. I think short signal phases would also be helpful.
I know of a few intersections like that here, but they are multi-lane and even have a left turn lane. Protected left is not triggered northbound in the AM rush, protected left is not triggerred southbound in the PM rush, at other times protected left will be triggered if there are cars in the left turn lane. Pemitted left is always permitted.
To be honest at that intersection, there aren't too many turning left anyways, but they did not want any time taken away from the dominant movement of rush hour traffic.
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0274704,-77.0765594,3a,75y,215.98h,88.07t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s70Qg62PIt0qMIJFhC0erHg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en
Connecticut Ave and Knowles in Kensington, MD. Sign reads "Left turn arrow does not operate M-F 7-9 AM". On the opposite side it reads ""Left turn arrow does not operate M-F 4-6 PM"
Quote from: mrsman on July 05, 2019, 11:43:40 AM
Basically, a 4-way intersection with one lane in each direction could get stuck up with left turners. Almost always, there is enough room for people to sneak around using the right "shoulder" (or parking lane, or just the mere widening at the intersection) assuming that only one car is turning left and that the car turning left is right on the yellow line to give the people behind him maximum room to manuever around. In your intersection, it seems like that may only be the case in 2 of the 4 incoming directions without having to drive on grass.
This one
does get stuck up with left turners. Use of the shoulder is common in all four directions, but especially eastbound. Southbound, you also have the shoulder being heavily used as a right turn lane - at least until it's blocked by straight traffic going around someone turning left! All told, thousands and thousands of cars use the shoulder every day. We're not just dealing with single cars making left turn movements; in the eastbound direction, we're dealing with 1200 cars per hour and in excess of 300 of those turning left; an average of 5-6 per minute during the PM rush. It comes as no surprise that backups are as common as they are, even despite the use of the shoulder.
Quote from: webny99 on July 05, 2019, 03:09:05 PM
Quote from: mrsman on July 05, 2019, 11:43:40 AM
Basically, a 4-way intersection with one lane in each direction could get stuck up with left turners. Almost always, there is enough room for people to sneak around using the right "shoulder" (or parking lane, or just the mere widening at the intersection) assuming that only one car is turning left and that the car turning left is right on the yellow line to give the people behind him maximum room to manuever around. In your intersection, it seems like that may only be the case in 2 of the 4 incoming directions without having to drive on grass.
This one does get stuck up with left turners. Use of the shoulder is common in all four directions, but especially eastbound. Southbound, you also have the shoulder being heavily used as a right turn lane - at least until it's blocked by straight traffic going around someone turning left! All told, thousands and thousands of cars use the shoulder every day. We're not just dealing with single cars making left turn movements; in the eastbound direction, we're dealing with 1200 cars per hour and in excess of 300 of those turning left; an average of 5-6 per minute during the PM rush. It comes as no surprise that backups are as common as they are, even despite the use of the shoulder.
I took another look at Atlantic/Five Mile. From just looking at the GSV, it seems to be a rural intersection. But looking at the map, once can really see how suburban the area has become and it really isn't that far from Rochester.
It really needs widening.
I would hate to recommend split-phasing, but in this situation it may be better for traffic.
Quote from: mrsman on July 05, 2019, 05:12:06 PM
I took another look at Atlantic/Five Mile. From just looking at the GSV, it seems to be a rural intersection. But looking at the map, once can really see how suburban the area has become and it really isn't that far from Rochester.
It really needs widening.
I would hate to recommend split-phasing, but in this situation it may be better for traffic.
I agree wholeheartedly. East of Five Mile Line was basically rural when I was a little kid; not so much anymore. In the last few years, a neighborhood with 80 or so houses has been built in the northeastern corner of the intersection, adding to the traffic woes. I think turn lanes on all approaches and four lanes heading east are easily warranted, but we will see how it plays out with the roundabout (crash prone modern, no doubt! :)) supposedly being built next year.
Quote from: webny99 on July 06, 2019, 04:42:56 PM
Quote from: mrsman on July 05, 2019, 05:12:06 PM
I took another look at Atlantic/Five Mile. From just looking at the GSV, it seems to be a rural intersection. But looking at the map, once can really see how suburban the area has become and it really isn't that far from Rochester.
It really needs widening.
I would hate to recommend split-phasing, but in this situation it may be better for traffic.
I agree wholeheartedly. East of Five Mile Line was basically rural when I was a little kid; not so much anymore. In the last few years, a neighborhood with 80 or so houses has been built in the northeastern corner of the intersection, adding to the traffic woes. I think turn lanes on all approaches and four lanes heading east are easily warranted, but we will see how it plays out with the roundabout (crash prone modern, no doubt! :)) supposedly being built next year.
Coming back to this (old) post to note that intersection improvements at this intersection are now complete! There's new left turn lanes on all approaches and a southbound right turn lane. Sidewalks, crosswalks, and striping aren't quite finished yet, but functionally it's more or less complete, and it's about time! Now a much smoother experience than the previous shoulder-bumping stop-and-go slugfest.
Left turning lanes came late to IL-38/Roosevelt Rd [and many other busy 4 lane routes] through DuPage Co. IL. As late as 1986, traffic was dreadful, with numerous cars signaling to turn into many driveways for businesses. Finally added 5th lane in 1987.
Now, most 4 lane major roads have turning lane. But, go into west Cook Co, and it's the 1960's again, with cars dodging left turners, without signaling and near misses. There is room in places for a lane, but too cheap, or just :crazy: NW Cook is better, btw. In the city, most major intersections have turn lanes, but for going to a side street, alley, or driveway, no room for any.
Oklahoma has TONNES of them. There is probably a 40/60 split between busy, signalized intersections with no turn lanes whatsoever, and left turning lanes only. Occasionally you find a right turn lane. Everywhere else I've lived turn lanes, both left and right, are very common, if not standard.
I just realized I failed to mention the most insane intersection with no turning lanes, Main St at Jefferson Rd (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0864767,-77.5182014,136m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu) in Pittsford, NY. The combined lack of turning lanes and lack of shoulders for passing makes this a literal nightmare to deal with. One single slow car that refuses to squeak through a small gap in traffic or go on red can back traffic up for blocks.. hours.. miles.. you name it. It is truly unfathomable that this exists in one of the wealthiest towns in a developed first world country, that hundreds of $100k+ vehicles poke around in this mess every single day, that one of the most highly rated suburbs in the nation has done absolutely nothing to address it for decades... it's beyond my comprehension.
Quote from: MCRoads on October 19, 2021, 06:15:43 PM
... TONNES ....
Poiponen13 would approve of this post. Sounds like something out of his "metrication" thread.
Quote from: webny99 on January 03, 2024, 04:37:43 PM
I just realized I failed to mention the most insane intersection with no turning lanes, Main St at Jefferson Rd (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0864767,-77.5182014,136m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu) in Pittsford, NY. The combined lack of turning lanes and lack of shoulders for passing makes this a literal nightmare to deal with. One single slow car that refuses to squeak through a small gap in traffic or go on red can back traffic up for blocks.. hours.. miles.. you name it. It is truly unfathomable that this exists in one of the wealthiest towns in a developed first world country, that hundreds of $100k+ vehicles poke around in this mess every single day, that one of the most highly rated suburbs in the nation has done absolutely nothing to address it for decades... it's beyond my comprehension.
The easiest solution, and one that I hope is employed regularly, is for traffic turning left to pull completely into the intersection enough that through or right-turning traffic can pass them while they are waiting for a gap.
This situation occurs regularly at
this intersection in Okinawa, Japan (https://maps.app.goo.gl/NtDCTEp3SjaS9rrb9) (another first world country...) that has no right turn lanes (Japan drives on the left).
Traffic inches out into the middle (https://maps.app.goo.gl/Gd5uc8MxZBQKgUVW6) (GSV car is turning right in that link) so that through traffic can pass around them. All it takes is for there to be two turning cars for traffic to halt, but at least those cars can go at the end.
I see less of this in America for a few reasons: (1) drivers don't pull out far enough; (2) drivers think their cars are bigger than they are so they don't attempt to "undertake" the turning car; and (3) people think it is illegal to pass on the outside in the intersection.
#3 is the most irritating to me. Drivers regularly break all sorts of laws that they
know exist, and yet they'll happily make up a law about not being able to creep out while turning, or passing on the outside of a left-turning driver in the intersection, and act like they'll get thrown in jail for doing so, even if doing so could mean greatly improving traffic flow at the intersection. Meanwhile thinking nothing of going 15+ over the limit, California stops, texting and driving, etc. If you're gonna break a law, made-up or not, at least break one that benefits traffic flow.
^^^^
I note how that intersection seems to have a lot of room to either side to allow for passing like that. I can think of plenty of urban intersections with very busy crosswalks where there isn't anywhere near that amount of room to get around turning vehicles on the outside unless the passing driver were to try to go into the crosswalk (obviously a bad idea if the crosswalk is busy)—plus, of course, there is the further problem where someone gets stuck behind cars turning both left (yield to oncoming traffic) and right (yield to pedestrians in crosswalk).
Quote from: jakeroot on January 04, 2024, 12:48:40 PM
Quote from: webny99 on January 03, 2024, 04:37:43 PM
I just realized I failed to mention the most insane intersection with no turning lanes, Main St at Jefferson Rd (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0864767,-77.5182014,136m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu) in Pittsford, NY. The combined lack of turning lanes and lack of shoulders for passing makes this a literal nightmare to deal with. One single slow car that refuses to squeak through a small gap in traffic or go on red can back traffic up for blocks.. hours.. miles.. you name it. It is truly unfathomable that this exists in one of the wealthiest towns in a developed first world country, that hundreds of $100k+ vehicles poke around in this mess every single day, that one of the most highly rated suburbs in the nation has done absolutely nothing to address it for decades... it's beyond my comprehension.
The easiest solution, and one that I hope is employed regularly, is for traffic turning left to pull completely into the intersection enough that through or right-turning traffic can pass them while they are waiting for a gap.
Yes, that is employed quite often - just not often enough that the intersection usually flows smoothly. All it takes is just one or two left turners not doing this to back things up considerably, especially during arrival/dismissal times at the nearby high school.
Quote from: jakeroot on January 04, 2024, 12:48:40 PM
I see less of this in America for a few reasons: (1) drivers don't pull out far enough; (2) drivers think their cars are bigger than they are so they don't attempt to "undertake" the turning car; and (3) people think it is illegal to pass on the outside in the intersection.
All valid points, although I would suggest that (2) is really more about wildly unrealistic expectations for "personal space" which have been building up unhindered in this country during decades of relative wealth and prosperity.
Speaking of which, twice recently I've been honked at for using the shoulder to pass a left turning vehicle. In both cases, I strongly suspect the honking was a response to what they viewed as a near-sideswipe (i.e. my vehicle's physical proximity to theirs), not a general objection to the passing maneuver. I say "they viewed" because I did not view it that way at all. Both were just normal shoulder passing maneuvers in which I tried (and apparently failed) to balance not getting too close to them with maintaining speed and remaining on the paved shoulder. In both cases, I chuckled at their over-privileged attitude gave a friendly honk in return.
Quote from: jakeroot on January 04, 2024, 12:48:40 PM
#3 is the most irritating to me. Drivers regularly break all sorts of laws that they know exist, and yet they'll happily make up a law about not being able to creep out while turning, or passing on the outside of a left-turning driver in the intersection, and act like they'll get thrown in jail for doing so, even if doing so could mean greatly improving traffic flow at the intersection. Meanwhile thinking nothing of going 15+ over the limit, California stops, texting and driving, etc. If you're gonna break a law, made-up or not, at least break one that benefits traffic flow.
Totally agreed, although I tend to be the opposite extreme in this regard. I will generally do what's most efficient with very little regard for the technical laws that may govern the situation, except to the extent required to ensure safety at all times.
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 04, 2024, 12:57:00 PM
^^^^
I note how that intersection seems to have a lot of room to either side to allow for passing like that. I can think of plenty of urban intersections with very busy crosswalks where there isn't anywhere near that amount of room to get around turning vehicles on the outside unless the passing driver were to try to go into the crosswalk (obviously a bad idea if the crosswalk is busy)—plus, of course, there is the further problem where someone gets stuck behind cars turning both left (yield to oncoming traffic) and right (yield to pedestrians in crosswalk).
That is a bit more expected in urban or otherwise pedestrian-heavy areas, like a mall or shopping center, or where there's real space/ROW constraints that restrict expansion. This is technically in the village of Pittsford, but the area is very suburban in nature. There's very little pedestrian traffic until you get within a block or so of NY 31 (State St) or further north/east (in the vicinity of Schoen Place).
Quote from: webny99 on January 04, 2024, 04:11:47 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 04, 2024, 12:57:00 PM
^^^^
I note how that intersection seems to have a lot of room to either side to allow for passing like that. I can think of plenty of urban intersections with very busy crosswalks where there isn't anywhere near that amount of room to get around turning vehicles on the outside unless the passing driver were to try to go into the crosswalk (obviously a bad idea if the crosswalk is busy)—plus, of course, there is the further problem where someone gets stuck behind cars turning both left (yield to oncoming traffic) and right (yield to pedestrians in crosswalk).
That is a bit more expected in urban or otherwise pedestrian-heavy areas, like a mall or shopping center, or where there's real space/ROW constraints that restrict expansion. This is technically in the village of Pittsford, but the area is very suburban in nature. There's very little pedestrian traffic until you get within a block or so of NY 31 (State St) or further north/east (in the vicinity of Schoen Place).
Note that I was referring to the Japanese intersection seen in the links jakeroot posted.
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 04, 2024, 04:24:19 PM
Note that I was referring to the Japanese intersection seen in the links jakeroot posted.
Whoops, I missed that, thanks for pointing it out. The extra space could also come in handy for turning right on red (not sure if that's common in Japan or not), where you could at least theoretically pull in front the crosswalk and allow pedestrian traffic to cross behind you while waiting to make your turn.
With regard to the Okinawa intersection, yes it does seem very wide, and that is a good thing, that seems to lead to the ability to pass.
In fact, this GSV seems to cover a passing manuever:
https://www.google.com/maps/@26.325515,127.7824573,3a,75y,158.69h,82.39t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swHd1HrGEFt5h8yECyihINw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
From our POV, there are two cars where we are looking at their rear. The car on the left is passing the car on the right (with brake lights on) that is stopped looking for a gap to make the right turn. Given the geometry, it seem like there is enough space to make this maneuver for up to 3 cars making a right turn.
With regard to Pittsford, perhaps webny, you can provide a little more clarity for us. It seems that both Main and Jefferson have shoulders on both sides of the street approaching the intersection. How wide is each street? It certainly seems possible to have the room to allow for passing (for passenger cars, but probably not buses/trucks), if the yellow line were slightly moved on each approach to the intersection.
For low speed streets, standard driving lanes are 10 feet and standard parking lanes are 8 feet. Ostensibly on an approach to the intersection, if you have 16 feet in the direction approaching the intersection and 10 feet leaving the intersection (total width of 26 feet), there should be enough room to allow for a relatively safe low speed pass on the right maneuver. Hard to tell exactly, but given the painted shoulder, I would think that each street would be at least 26 feet wide and Jefferson seems to be about 30 feet. They could probably paint a regular left turn lane on Jefferson with three 10 foot lanes (east, left, west).
So yes, if the yellow line were left on the exact center of those streets, there is no passing room, but there could be with some creative repainting.
As a follow up to above, I remember a street in Sacramento that was somewhat similar to the situation in Pittsford, NY:
H Street in Sacramento, between 30th and Cal State U. of Sacramento, is basically one lane in each direction with a narrow bike lane in each direction (essentially a shoulder) and from the vantage point of GSV, it does not appear to be much wider (curb to curb) than Jefferson in Pittsford:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.5718749,-121.4525818,3a,75y,293.2h,64.02t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFAhH0rfC8_PUW7Sj05-mhQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e3?entry=ttu
But watch what happens as we approach an intersection with a traffic signal. A lane shift to accommodate a left turn lane (and a brief break in the bike lanes to account for the space).
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.572042,-121.45319,3a,37.5y,292.78h,87.18t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGb8btZXgqDUVDGzf5RpMXg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e3?entry=ttu