Intersections with NO turning lanes

[webny99]

I too hate four-way stops, and I believe they are becoming less and less sustainable over time. They're annoying with traffic, because drivers are either shy, creating delays; or aggressive, creating confusion and rage. And they're annoying without traffic, too, because why would I come to a complete stop in the Middle of Nowhere for no good reason?

a 4-phase stoplight setup would be best.

So, one phase per direction?

[kphoger]

So, one phase per direction?

Two main possibilities:

(1)  Each direction gets a phase with protected left turns.

(2)  Each road only has protected turns in one direction (hopefully the busier turning movement!).

[jakeroot]

(2)  Each road only has protected turns in one direction (hopefully the busier turning movement!).

This is pretty common in Vancouver. Split phasing (your first option -- very rare in BC) is really not necessary unless there's option lanes as part of a dual turn setup (though even then, not unheard of). What's better is a protected/permissive left for the busier direction, usually leading (sometimes lagging with an accompanying "no left turn" for the other direction). Most I've seen only last about 4-8 seconds, but seem to help where left turning traffic is really busy.

What I haven't yet seen done, is a signal for each direction that allows a protected phase, but having the arrow activate only for the busier direction during rush hour (changing depending on whether it's morning or night).

A third option is a two-phase signal, with a widened shoulder to allow traffic to "undertake" any left-turning traffic.

[sprjus4]

shy

I wouldn't necessarily say the driver is "shy", there's times where some idiot thinks he has the right of way when you clearly were there way before him. Being cautious and taking it a little slow could end up avoiding a wreck which is way more worth it than getting through the intersection 2 seconds faster.

[webny99]

^ Either "cautious" or "inattentive" could also be applicable instead of shy, depending on the circumstances.

Basically, pay attention to the established order and go when it's your turn. It is the indecision that irks me to no end. If you were definite as to your intention from the outset, so much less of everyone else's time would be wasted waiting for you to figure it out.

[sprjus4]

^ Either "cautious" or "inattentive" could also be applicable instead of shy, depending on the circumstances.

Basically, pay attention to the established order and go when it's your turn. It is the indecision that irks me to no end. If you were definite as to your intention from the outset, so much less of everyone else's time would be wasted waiting for you to figure it out.

Well, if you push forward too fast when it is your turn, your legally in the right, but some idiot on the right might also do the same thing, illegally, and cause a crash. Going a little slower and more cautiously could reduce the chances of a crash. Taking the example I just provided above, if you went a little slower out or waited a second, you make sure no one else is going and the intersection is clear.

But I agree, don't sit there for more than 2-4 seconds, but at the same time, don't expect the car to dart out immediately.

[webny99]

(2)  Each road only has protected turns in one direction (hopefully the busier turning movement!).

In this case, eastbound and southbound.
Just so I'm clear, phases would then be as follows (?):

Eastbound only w/ protected left
Eastbound and westbound, permissive lefts
Southbound only w/ protected left
Northbound and southbound, permissive lefts

Basically, this seems to advantage EB and SB thru traffic at the expense of NB and WB thru traffic.

A third option is a two-phase signal, with a widened shoulder to allow traffic to "undertake" any left-turning traffic.

This is essentially how the example I mentioned  functions, which is less than ideal for the volumes being handled.

[kphoger]

A third option is a two-phase signal, with a widened shoulder to allow traffic to "undertake" any left-turning traffic.

Not a solution in states that prohibit driving on the shoulder.

(2)  Each road only has protected turns in one direction (hopefully the busier turning movement!).

In this case, eastbound and southbound.
Just so I'm clear, phases would then be as follows (?):

Eastbound only w/ protected left
Eastbound and westbound, permissive lefts
Southbound only w/ protected left
Northbound and southbound, permissive lefts

Basically, this seems to advantage EB and SB thru traffic at the expense of NB and WB thru traffic.

Exactly.  And this is precisely how the intersection at Douglas and Woodlawn works here in Wichita (even the directions are the same).

[webny99]

Hmmm. That isn't really done around here, and I'm not sure it would work at the intersection in question.

The problem is that in the morning rush, westbound backs up even as-is, without the extra wait time of the eastbound protected phase.
And in the afternoon rush, northbound backs up even as-is, without the extra wait time of the southbound protected phase.

The optimum solution would be: WB and SB get the protected phases in the AM, and EB and NB get the protected phases in the PM.
I do like the idea of the thru traffic in one direction getting two of the four phases. That would certainly be a necessity here to handle the eastbound volumes (around 1200 per hour between 4 and 6 PM).

[roadman]

There are a lot of intersections around here with no turn lanes, so trying to pick the busiest one would be rather difficult. The intersection that comes to mind when I see this thread, however, is the "Barnes Dance" intersection at 7th & H NW near Verizon Center. Not only are there no turn lanes, no turns have been permitted at all since the "Barnes Dance" was implemented, although a lot of drivers (especially Uber drivers and cabbies) think that rule doesn't apply to them. The police do sometimes enforce it, too; I recently saw some idiot make a right turn directly ahead of a cop, who immediately put on the lights and pulled him over.

https://goo.gl/maps/sUE65XEkcob1ksFBA

I can see Uber drivers doing it because their GPS told them to.  Honestly, the Uber average GPS has a lot to be desired, and frequently recommends turns and u-turns where they're not permitted.

FIFY

[yand]

If a lane is wide enough to fit 2 cars, does that count?

I too hate four-way stops, and I believe they are becoming less and less sustainable over time. They're annoying with traffic, because drivers are either shy, creating delays; or aggressive, creating confusion and rage. And they're annoying without traffic, too, because why would I come to a complete stop in the Middle of Nowhere for no good reason?

If there is indeed "no good reason" then that's one thing. 4 way stops can be a bit awkward but they make it much easier to yield to pedestrians. Plus there are many low visibility 2 way/1 way stops that would benefit from an extra set of stop signs.

There are a lot of intersections around here with no turn lanes, so trying to pick the busiest one would be rather difficult. The intersection that comes to mind when I see this thread, however, is the "Barnes Dance" intersection at 7th & H NW near Verizon Center. Not only are there no turn lanes, no turns have been permitted at all since the "Barnes Dance" was implemented, although a lot of drivers (especially Uber drivers and cabbies) think that rule doesn't apply to them. The police do sometimes enforce it, too; I recently saw some idiot make a right turn directly ahead of a cop, who immediately put on the lights and pulled him over.

https://goo.gl/maps/sUE65XEkcob1ksFBA

I can see Uber drivers doing it because their GPS told them to.  Honestly, the Uber average GPS has a lot to be desired, and frequently recommends turns and u-turns where they're not permitted.

FIFY

every uber driver knows that uber nav is especially bad. I'va had at least one situation where waze respected a road's "no left turn" restriction when uber's own app didn't

[jakeroot]

I can see Uber drivers doing it because their GPS told them to.  Honestly, the Uber average GPS has a lot to be desired, and frequently recommends turns and u-turns where they're not permitted.

FIFY

Maybe true at one point, but not anymore. As a Lyft driver, using Waze to navigate to around 50 different addresses every week (I work part time), I very seldom (maybe once a month) have Waze suggest something that perhaps isn't legal. But even then, it's usually because of a new "no left turn" sign or something that it may not know about.

A third option is a two-phase signal, with a widened shoulder to allow traffic to "undertake" any left-turning traffic.

Not a solution in states that prohibit driving on the shoulder.

Meant to say "widened roadway". Basically this:

If a lane is wide enough to fit 2 cars, does that count?

In most states, passing on the right is permitted when the roadway is wide enough to permit two lanes of traffic (excluding the shoulder). There are some states that allow drivers to use the shoulder to pass on the right, but not very many. I think Texas permits this.

[Mergingtraffic]

In CT, what bugs me is when there's room on the pavement for a turning lane but there are none.  Happens quite often in this state.

[Kulerage]

I used to know of an example, but traffic could get so bad that very recently some turning lanes were finally added.

[jakeroot]

I used to know of an example, but traffic could get so bad that very recently some turning lanes were finally added.

What was the setup? Two lanes each direction, or one lane each direction? (or more?)

[Kulerage]

I used to know of an example, but traffic could get so bad that very recently some turning lanes were finally added.

What was the setup? Two lanes each direction, or one lane each direction? (or more?)

There were two lanes for going forward, a left turn lane, but no right turning lane, meaning you had to use the rightmost straight lane for making right turns.

[webny99]

I used to know of an example, but traffic could get so bad that very recently some turning lanes were finally added.

What was the setup? Two lanes each direction, or one lane each direction? (or more?)

There were two lanes for going forward, a left turn lane, but no right turning lane, meaning you had to use the rightmost straight lane for making right turns.

... so if there was a left turn lane, I guess it wouldn't have counted.

[sprjus4]

I think Texas permits this.

Yes, they do. It's not the most comfortable thing doing, though there's been times where the speed limit is 75 mph on a two-lane, and you'll get stuck behind some little car doing 60 mph and there's cars coming from the other direction. That's really the only time I've used the shoulder to get around them. I try to pass traditionally when I can though, in the opposing lane when it's clear. I don't trust driving on the shoulder, especially when I'm not familiar with the road and it could just drop off at any time, or there's debris and rocks all over it, it's not fully paved, etc.

[AlexandriaVA]

Dunno, but a lot of the major thoroughfares in inner Northern VA (Arlington, Alexandria, Annandale) are two-lanes in each direction (e.g. Glebe, Columbia Pike).

So you wind up during rush hour in a situation where you play the game of "do I cruise in the left lane and risk being stuck behind a left-turn" or "cruise in the right lane and risk getting stuck behind a stopped Metrobus). 95Hoo will know what I'm talking about.

[kphoger]

I think Texas permits this.

Yes, they do. It's not the most comfortable thing doing, though there's been times where the speed limit is 75 mph on a two-lane, and you'll get stuck behind some little car doing 60 mph and there's cars coming from the other direction. That's really the only time I've used the shoulder to get around them. I try to pass traditionally when I can though, in the opposing lane when it's clear. I don't trust driving on the shoulder, especially when I'm not familiar with the road and it could just drop off at any time, or there's debris and rocks all over it, it's not fully paved, etc.

Passing on the shoulder is not allowed in Texas if the car you're passing isn't slowing down, stopped, disabled, or preparing to turn left.  The other driver choosing to go 60 mph instead of 75 is not a legal reason to pass on the shoulder.  What Texas allows in that scenario is for the slower driver to use the shoulder and let the faster driver pass on the left.  This is all according to Sec. 545.058 of the Texas Transportation Code.

As for Jake's original assertion:  Sec. 545.057 stipulates that the vehicle being passed on the right must be turning left or about to turn left.  So that would not apply to using any extra lane space for turning right next to other vehicles going straight.

[Flint1979]

Corner of Shattuck Road and Hermansau Road in Saginaw, MI.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4509861,-83.9563376,3a,75y,252.25h,90.54t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5sIsw1QYHzd-_8okkzywTQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Another one not too far from the location above at the corner of Schust Road and N. Michigan Road

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4720445,-83.9458781,3a,75y,356.64h,88.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sxTsI5BPSxcDb9BXDfw5flw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[sprjus4]

I think Texas permits this.

Yes, they do. It's not the most comfortable thing doing, though there's been times where the speed limit is 75 mph on a two-lane, and you'll get stuck behind some little car doing 60 mph and there's cars coming from the other direction. That's really the only time I've used the shoulder to get around them. I try to pass traditionally when I can though, in the opposing lane when it's clear. I don't trust driving on the shoulder, especially when I'm not familiar with the road and it could just drop off at any time, or there's debris and rocks all over it, it's not fully paved, etc.

Passing on the shoulder is not allowed in Texas if the car you're passing isn't slowing down, stopped, disabled, or preparing to turn left.  The other driver choosing to go 60 mph instead of 75 is not a legal reason to pass on the shoulder.  What Texas allows in that scenario is for the slower driver to use the shoulder and let the faster driver pass on the left.  This is all according to Sec. 545.058 of the Texas Transportation Code.

As for Jake's original assertion:  Sec. 545.057 stipulates that the vehicle being passed on the right must be turning left or about to turn left.  So that would not apply to using any extra lane space for turning right next to other vehicles going straight.

I had been told by a friend in Texas it was legal if the path was clear, but I suppose they were wrong looking at the law more closely. Probably that piece about using the shoulder to allow -another- vehicle to pass is what the confusion was. I had thought it was weird being legal, and my instinct was right. I had only done it a couple of times, and I guess I won't be doing it again.

[D-Dey65]

I had a cop once tell my dad that on roads with no turning lane that its illegal to pass on the right despite their being room for two cars to be there safely and most of all being safe.

Deerfield Blvd in Orlando is that way and now with the new Tapestry Development on Carroll Street in Kissimmee, no one thought to add a turn lane at the intersection leading in and out of it.  No room to pass there unlike Deerfield which is two lanes but could be striped for three.

Remember what I said about the lack of turn lanes at the roads to the General James A. Van Fleet State Trail on FL 50? Remember that after that bridge over the old SAL ROW was torn down they put an east to north turn lane leading to the former line north of the trail?



 

[Flint1979]

I too hate four-way stops, and I believe they are becoming less and less sustainable over time. They're annoying with traffic, because drivers are either shy, creating delays; or aggressive, creating confusion and rage. And they're annoying without traffic, too, because why would I come to a complete stop in the Middle of Nowhere for no good reason?

a 4-phase stoplight setup would be best.

So, one phase per direction?

The biggest thing I hate about four way stops is when you are approaching one and a car is stopped on the cross street that you are crossing and obviously have to stop for since it's a four way stop, I hate how cars will wait for you to come to a complete stop before moving despite the fact that they have already stopped and you still have to stop. A lot of times that delays you from going through the intersection since you have to wait for that car to go through like they could have done before you came to your stop. Otherwise I don't mind them and there are still quite a few of them around my area.

[1995hoo]

Dunno, but a lot of the major thoroughfares in inner Northern VA (Arlington, Alexandria, Annandale) are two-lanes in each direction (e.g. Glebe, Columbia Pike).

So you wind up during rush hour in a situation where you play the game of "do I cruise in the left lane and risk being stuck behind a left-turn" or "cruise in the right lane and risk getting stuck behind a stopped Metrobus). 95Hoo will know what I'm talking about.

Columbia Pike is a classic example of that. I used to commute on that road and it was difficult trying to balance the two issues you note in terms of when to change lanes.