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Author Topic: Intersections with NO turning lanes  (Read 15021 times)

webny99

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Re: Intersections with NO turning lanes
« Reply #50 on: June 28, 2019, 02:58:23 PM »

So you wind up during rush hour in a situation where you play the game of "do I cruise in the left lane and risk being stuck behind a left-turn" or "cruise in the right lane and risk getting stuck behind a stopped Metrobus). 95Hoo will know what I'm talking about.
Columbia Pike is a classic example of that. I used to commute on that road and it was difficult trying to balance the two issues you note in terms of when to change lanes.

I think this happens on pretty much any four lane road that lacks turning lanes. A stretch of a mile or so near me comes to mind where changing lanes 5 to 7 times within a mile is par for the course. First you want the left lane to avoid slowdowns as traffic turns right at a T-junction. Then immediately move right to avoid left turning traffic into streets and driveways. Then left again, then right again. And eventually, two lanes merge into one. Sometimes you get ahead big time, sometimes you just can't win. It's a fun, but very tiring, game!
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Re: Intersections with NO turning lanes
« Reply #51 on: June 28, 2019, 04:36:08 PM »

I used to know of an example, but traffic could get so bad that very recently some turning lanes were finally added.

What was the setup? Two lanes each direction, or one lane each direction? (or more?)
There were two lanes for going forward, a left turn lane, but no right turning lane, meaning you had to use the rightmost straight lane for making right turns.

Could you post a Google Maps link? Not sure your example fits the OP's criteria.

As for Jake's original assertion:  Sec. 545.057 stipulates that the vehicle being passed on the right must be turning left or about to turn left.  So that would not apply to using any extra lane space for turning right next to other vehicles going straight.

Does Texas permit passing in the shoulder when vehicles are presenting an obstruction in the primary lane of travel? My earlier assertion was simply that you may pass on the right (if the roadway is wide enough to permit such a maneuver), if there is enough room to do so. The car being passed on the right did not have to be turning. Just traveling below the speed limit.
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kphoger

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Re: Intersections with NO turning lanes
« Reply #52 on: June 28, 2019, 04:58:49 PM »

Does Texas permit passing in the shoulder when vehicles are presenting an obstruction in the primary lane of travel? My earlier assertion was simply that you may pass on the right (if the roadway is wide enough to permit such a maneuver), if there is enough room to do so. The car being passed on the right did not have to be turning. Just traveling below the speed limit.

The only things similar to the 'presenting an obstruction' idea are these:

Quote from: Texas Transportation Code, Sec. 545.058
An operator may drive on an improved shoulder to the right of the main traveled portion of a roadway if that operation is necessary and may be done safely, but only:

(4) to pass another vehicle that is ... disabled ...

(7) to avoid a collision.

So, no, a driver merely going a bit slower than you are doesn't count.

Sec. 545.057 does allow you to pass on the right (but not the shoulder) on a one-way road as long as the road is wide enough, but that's still not the situation anyone is describing here.
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Kulerage

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Re: Intersections with NO turning lanes
« Reply #53 on: June 30, 2019, 11:02:35 PM »

I used to know of an example, but traffic could get so bad that very recently some turning lanes were finally added.
What was the setup? Two lanes each direction, or one lane each direction? (or more?)
There were two lanes for going forward, a left turn lane, but no right turning lane, meaning you had to use the rightmost straight lane for making right turns.

... so if there was a left turn lane, I guess it wouldn't have counted.

Yes. I dunno what came over me that day.
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mrsman

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Re: Intersections with NO turning lanes
« Reply #54 on: July 05, 2019, 11:43:40 AM »

Hmmm. That isn't really done around here, and I'm not sure it would work at the intersection in question.

The problem is that in the morning rush, westbound backs up even as-is, without the extra wait time of the eastbound protected phase.
And in the afternoon rush, northbound backs up even as-is, without the extra wait time of the southbound protected phase.

The optimum solution would be: WB and SB get the protected phases in the AM, and EB and NB get the protected phases in the PM.
I do like the idea of the thru traffic in one direction getting two of the four phases. That would certainly be a necessity here to handle the eastbound volumes (around 1200 per hour between 4 and 6 PM).


Basically, a 4-way intersection with one lane in each direction could get stuck up with left turners.  Almost always, there is enough room for people to sneak around using the right "shoulder" (or parking lane, or just the mere widening at the intersection) assuming that only one car is turning left and that the car turning left is right on the yellow line to give the people behind him maximum room to manuever around.  In your intersection, it seems like that may only be the case in 2 of the 4 incoming directions without having to drive on grass.

(This is standard on many single lane per direction streets here.  Ofen the streets have room for parking, so there is room to pass on the right through the intersection.  IMO, this is smoother than 2 lanes per direction because the cars stuck behind the left turner would have to change lanes into another lane of moving traffic as opposed to changing lanes to the parking lane just to pass through the intersection.  Obviously at really busy points this won't work, like if there are multiple people turning, but when that is common, then the parking lanes get removed in favor of a proper turn lane.)

Is su;ch a movement considered passing on the right?  I'm not passing a vehicle moving slowly, I'm passing a vehicle that is stopped.  I beleive that if you were on a 2 lane roadway and a car has double parked, you should be able to go around a double yellow lane in order to pass the stopped vehicle (when there is no opposing traffic of course) even though it will be illegal to do that around a vehicle that is driving slow.  I believe it is also OK to pass around really slow vehicles like horse carriages and bicycles.

But as far as your question about allowing a protected left at different directions at different times, that should be OK so long as you make sure not to violate yellow trap in your signaling.  Since FYAs aren't used without a dedicated left turn lane, it means that the protected left must be leading.  I think short signal phases would also be helpful.

I know of a few intersections like that here, but they are multi-lane and even have a left turn lane.  Protected left is not triggered northbound in the AM rush, protected left is not triggerred southbound in the PM rush, at other times protected left will be triggered if there are cars in the left turn lane.  Pemitted left is always permitted.

To be honest at that intersection, there aren't too many turning left anyways, but they did not want any time taken away from the dominant movement of rush hour traffic.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0274704,-77.0765594,3a,75y,215.98h,88.07t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s70Qg62PIt0qMIJFhC0erHg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

Connecticut Ave and Knowles in Kensington, MD.  Sign reads "Left turn arrow does not operate M-F 7-9 AM".  On the opposite side it reads ""Left turn arrow does not operate M-F 4-6 PM"
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 11:47:48 AM by mrsman »
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webny99

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Re: Intersections with NO turning lanes
« Reply #55 on: July 05, 2019, 03:09:05 PM »

Basically, a 4-way intersection with one lane in each direction could get stuck up with left turners.  Almost always, there is enough room for people to sneak around using the right "shoulder" (or parking lane, or just the mere widening at the intersection) assuming that only one car is turning left and that the car turning left is right on the yellow line to give the people behind him maximum room to manuever around.  In your intersection, it seems like that may only be the case in 2 of the 4 incoming directions without having to drive on grass.

This one does get stuck up with left turners. Use of the shoulder is common in all four directions, but especially eastbound. Southbound, you also have the shoulder being heavily used as a right turn lane - at least until it's blocked by straight traffic going around someone turning left! All told, thousands and thousands of cars use the shoulder every day. We're not just dealing with single cars making left turn movements; in the eastbound direction, we're dealing with 1200 cars per hour and in excess of 300 of those turning left; an average of 5-6 per minute during the PM rush. It comes as no surprise that backups are as common as they are, even despite the use of the shoulder.
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mrsman

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Re: Intersections with NO turning lanes
« Reply #56 on: July 05, 2019, 05:12:06 PM »

Basically, a 4-way intersection with one lane in each direction could get stuck up with left turners.  Almost always, there is enough room for people to sneak around using the right "shoulder" (or parking lane, or just the mere widening at the intersection) assuming that only one car is turning left and that the car turning left is right on the yellow line to give the people behind him maximum room to manuever around.  In your intersection, it seems like that may only be the case in 2 of the 4 incoming directions without having to drive on grass.

This one does get stuck up with left turners. Use of the shoulder is common in all four directions, but especially eastbound. Southbound, you also have the shoulder being heavily used as a right turn lane - at least until it's blocked by straight traffic going around someone turning left! All told, thousands and thousands of cars use the shoulder every day. We're not just dealing with single cars making left turn movements; in the eastbound direction, we're dealing with 1200 cars per hour and in excess of 300 of those turning left; an average of 5-6 per minute during the PM rush. It comes as no surprise that backups are as common as they are, even despite the use of the shoulder.

I took another look at Atlantic/Five Mile.  From just looking at the GSV, it seems to be a rural intersection.  But looking at the map, once can really see how suburban the area has become and it really isn't that far from Rochester.

It really needs widening.

I would hate to recommend split-phasing, but in this situation it may be better for traffic.
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webny99

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Re: Intersections with NO turning lanes
« Reply #57 on: July 06, 2019, 04:42:56 PM »

I took another look at Atlantic/Five Mile.  From just looking at the GSV, it seems to be a rural intersection.  But looking at the map, once can really see how suburban the area has become and it really isn't that far from Rochester.
It really needs widening.
I would hate to recommend split-phasing, but in this situation it may be better for traffic.

I agree wholeheartedly. East of Five Mile Line was basically rural when I was a little kid; not so much anymore. In the last few years, a neighborhood with 80 or so houses has been built in the northeastern corner of the intersection, adding to the traffic woes. I think turn lanes on all approaches and four lanes heading east are easily warranted, but we will see how it plays out with the roundabout (crash prone modern, no doubt!  :)) supposedly being built next year.
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webny99

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Re: Intersections with NO turning lanes
« Reply #58 on: October 19, 2021, 10:35:10 AM »

I took another look at Atlantic/Five Mile.  From just looking at the GSV, it seems to be a rural intersection.  But looking at the map, once can really see how suburban the area has become and it really isn't that far from Rochester.
It really needs widening.
I would hate to recommend split-phasing, but in this situation it may be better for traffic.

I agree wholeheartedly. East of Five Mile Line was basically rural when I was a little kid; not so much anymore. In the last few years, a neighborhood with 80 or so houses has been built in the northeastern corner of the intersection, adding to the traffic woes. I think turn lanes on all approaches and four lanes heading east are easily warranted, but we will see how it plays out with the roundabout (crash prone modern, no doubt!  :)) supposedly being built next year.

Coming back to this (old) post to note that intersection improvements at this intersection are now complete! There's new left turn lanes on all approaches and a southbound right turn lane. Sidewalks, crosswalks, and striping aren't quite finished yet, but functionally it's more or less complete, and it's about time! Now a much smoother experience than the previous shoulder-bumping stop-and-go slugfest.
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Re: Intersections with NO turning lanes
« Reply #59 on: October 19, 2021, 05:12:59 PM »

Left turning lanes came late to IL-38/Roosevelt Rd [and many other busy 4 lane routes] through DuPage Co. IL. As late as 1986, traffic was dreadful, with numerous cars signaling to turn into many driveways for businesses. Finally added 5th lane in 1987.

Now, most 4 lane major roads have turning lane. But, go into west Cook Co, and it's the 1960's again, with cars dodging left turners, without signaling and near misses.  There is room in places for a lane, but too cheap, or just :crazy:  NW Cook is better, btw. In the city, most major intersections have turn lanes, but for going to a side street, alley, or driveway, no room for any.
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Re: Intersections with NO turning lanes
« Reply #60 on: October 19, 2021, 06:15:43 PM »

Oklahoma has TONNES of them. There is probably a 40/60 split between busy, signalized intersections with no turn lanes whatsoever, and left turning lanes only. Occasionally you find a right turn lane. Everywhere else Ive lived turn lanes, both left and right, are very common, if not standard.
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