Minnesota Notes

[Molandfreak]

Dang, the first three are the simplest (and the best) ones IMO. Are the condo residents just being NIMBYs about having the ROW right in front of them? Those three (and maybe 4 as well) are the only ones that should be considered, the rest are convoluted. Alternative 9 is the most confusing to me.

[froggie]

I'm surprised Alternative 7 got killed.

I'm not.  It's the only one that directly impacts Hidden Falls Park.  Also challenging bridge construction that's close to 100ft up from the valley floor, high-tension power line impacts, and goes directly over a memorial (that small area on the intersection corner).

Dang, the first three are the simplest (and the best) ones IMO. Are the condo residents just being NIMBYs about having the ROW right in front of them?

That's part of it, though given that the revised roadway would have almost 40K daily traffic next to the sidewalk, I can understand their concern.  Meanwhile, that alignment would completely take out several bungalows and a housing development on the south side of Norfolk Ave.

I came up with a conceptual proposal about 6 weeks ago that's similar to Alternate 2.  I addressed the condo resident concerns by burying the roadway under and just south of Norfolk Ave.  This would give the option of air rights development on one of the two blocks, and a park-like lid on the other block.

Of the remaining official alternatives, I'd lean towards Alt 4, though I think the Edgcumbe/West 7th ramps could be cleaned up further, and I still think West 7th could be closed between Edgcumbe and Davern.

[Molandfreak]

Of the remaining official alternatives, I'd lean towards Alt 4, though I think the Edgcumbe/West 7th ramps could be cleaned up further, and I still think West 7th could be closed between Edgcumbe and Davern.

Agreed. It's the only reasonable one that has high speed access on Shepard Road from both directions.

I won't bicker about any of them other than number 9, however.


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[texaskdog]

This is Minnesota. They never do the simplest thing that makes sense

[Molandfreak]

I really hope it's not number 9... all those low-speed ramps...


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[texaskdog]

I really hope it's not number 9… all those low-speed ramps…


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Why do you ever expect them to make sense?  #1 was a true thing of beauty.

[froggie]

I've been in regular email contact with one of the project team members (a St. Paul city planner).  She said the first few alternatives were dropped "not only because of the opposition, but because of access issues, concerns about the intersection with Davern, bridges that would need to be constructed, and the way that the road would create an additional barrier in the middle of a residential community."

I'm not sold on the access issues, but I understand the barrier concern.  The "bridges" concern is mitigatable via better design, but the intersection at Davern would be problematic...that's a very valid concern, though I still think it'd be doable with Alt #3.

I sent her my concerns with Alts 5, 6, and (especially) 9.  The response was that most of my concerns will be looked at in the next phase of the study, which will go into more technical detail of the remaining alternatives.

[flowmotion]

My folks are NIMBYing it up on this MN-5/Shepard Road thing, and I have to agree the entire premise of this project is completely flawed.

The existing interchange is not congested at all. The idea seems to be "If we build it, they'll come", without any consideration that Shepard Road simply doesn't serve many people's desired destination. MnDOT has not produced any sort of origin-destination study which shows this will reduce traffic on Fort Road/W Seventh, or if they have, they haven't shown it to the public. Although, a significant portion of traffic gets onto I-35E, so if they wanted to make a real improvement, they'd follow Froggie's suggestion of making I-35E/Shepard a full interchange.  (Or better yet, turn MN-110 into a freeway.)

My guess the entire idea is based on Saint Paul's farts and wishful thinking that people will accidentally take a highway ramp and end up downtown to spend money.

Edit: And thank you for posting the alternatives! -- I hadn't seen the actual plans, only some NIMBY photocopies.

[texaskdog]

What is funny is that they oppose Ayd Mill road being connected and want traffic on the city streets, yet they are okay with Shephard road getting people off of West 7th.

[SSOWorld]

What is funny is that they oppose Ayd Mill road being connected and want traffic on the city streets, yet they are okay with Shephard road getting people off of West 7th.

Welcome to America - home of the double standard

[froggie]

Different neighborhoods, so not exactly the same people.

And it should be noted that not everyone further up opposed opening Ayd Mill Rd to 35E.  Several residents, especially those along Lexington, supported the move.

[texaskdog]

Really froggie?  Shepard Road (which ALL of it would have more traffic) is only about a mile from the end of Ayd Mill as the crow flies. 

[flowmotion]

The Ayd Mill Road situation is simply not comparable. Had it been completed, it would have functioned as a regional bypass largely for suburban commuters (similar to MN-280). Shepard Road is only useful for destinations in Saint Paul.

Also, this Shepard Road thing seems to be something that City Hall wants, not something the neighbors are clamoring for.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

Effective tomorrow MNDot is increasing the speed limit from 65 to 70 on I-94 between 494/694 in Woodbury and the WI border. Wasn't sure if they would since Hudson is still a 65 zone and one of the reasons that stretch never went to 70 before, but they are.

[bugo]

Good. Any time a speed limit is raised it is a good thing. The recent trend has been toward higher speed limits. With the eastern part of the midwest going to 70, does that mean that a little further west and south will be going to 75 or even 80?

[texaskdog]

The Ayd Mill Road situation is simply not comparable. Had it been completed, it would have functioned as a regional bypass largely for suburban commuters (similar to MN-280). Shepard Road is only useful for destinations in Saint Paul.

Also, this Shepard Road thing seems to be something that City Hall wants, not something the neighbors are clamoring for.

So it's better to have traffic on Lexington than Ayd Mill? 

[Roadguy]

Effective tomorrow MNDot is increasing the speed limit from 65 to 70 on I-94 between 494/694 in Woodbury and the WI border. Wasn't sure if they would since Hudson is still a 65 zone and one of the reasons that stretch never went to 70 before, but they are.

Well Done MnDOT!!!
Despite what people say, MnDOT continues in many ways to be one of the more progressive state DOTs.

Now WisDOT needs to realize they are being stupid leaving 3 miles through Hudson at 65.  Very few drivers are going to drop their speeds for that short stretch.  Enforcement in that area will be difficult due to traffic volumes and a lack of median crossovers.  They need to do a speed study and up that speed to 70 versus leaving a more dangerous speed trap.

[mgk920]

Effective tomorrow MNDot is increasing the speed limit from 65 to 70 on I-94 between 494/694 in Woodbury and the WI border. Wasn't sure if they would since Hudson is still a 65 zone and one of the reasons that stretch never went to 70 before, but they are.

Well Done MnDOT!!!
Despite what people say, MnDOT continues in many ways to be one of the more progressive state DOTs.

Now WisDOT needs to realize they are being stupid leaving 3 miles through Hudson at 65.  Very few drivers are going to drop their speeds for that short stretch.  Enforcement in that area will be difficult due to traffic volumes and a lack of median crossovers.  They need to do a speed study and up that speed to 70 versus leaving a more dangerous speed trap.

Also the the hills as the highway transits the Saint Croix River valley, especially on the Wisconsin side.

Mike

[froggie]

Given the mostly urban nature (especially around Carmichael Rd), the bluff climb, and the close interchange spacing, I see no problem with keeping 94 at 65 MPH from west of MN 95 North to the US 12 interchange.  I'm actually somewhat surprised that MnDOT bumped that segment to 70, though it does have wider interchange spacing than most of the Metro or in Hudson and is (relatively) newer vintage (completed ca. 1985).

[invincor]

I was curious so I went up to investigate just now.  I drove westbound on I-94 from Hwy 65 in Wisconsin (exit 10) into Minnesota as far as Manning Avenue, then went back home heading eastbound, going through Hudson both ways.

The speed limit signs in Wisconsin are all now at 70 mph, those in Hudson included, in both directions.  The signs in the Minnesota section that I drove were still at 65. 

The Wisconsin signs are all brand new too.  They didn't just slap a 70 on top of the 65. 

[TheHighwayMan3561]

I got things mixed up. MNDot isn't increasing the limit until tomorrow (Wednesday).

[flowmotion]

So it's better to have traffic on Lexington than Ayd Mill? 

I seriously doubt anyone in their right mind does this. If you want to go the 'wrong way' between I-94 and I-35E, Kellogg Blvd is probably the best exit, despite the longer distance.

(Or Snelling-Shelby-Ayd Mill, but you have to ignore the misleading signs put up by the devious Saint Paulites.) 

[Mdcastle]

The great LED conversion has begun. Three contracts have been let to convert all the conventional sodium fixtures under Mn/DOT jurisdiction to LED. Work has started in the Northeast metro (which was due for relamping so they let that one first before deciding to do all of them), with I-694 already converted and work happening on MN 36 and I-94.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

Final EIS released for the US 53 relocation in Virginia. Public comment period through July 6; the E-2 was the option selected, which will reroute US 53 well to the north over a man-made lake and require relocating MN 135 slightly as well.

http://www.dot.state.mn.us/d1/projects/hwy53relocation/

[The High Plains Traveler]

MN 5 likely to be turned back to Washington County between MN 120 and MN 36 (its present east terminus) this summer.

http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_28194176/mndot-handing-over-stretch-minnesota-5-washington-county

The article mentions something a little more curious though: MNDot is apparently trying to hand over a section of MN 60 in Worthington. What is this section and why would they hand it over?

Turning MN-5 back requires a little creative routing for the now-bypassed Constitutional Route 45. This begins where MN-5 crosses the east city limits of St. Paul, and for now it could be routed up MN-120 and east on MN-36. This might work with the existing description of Legislative Route 118 (36), which "begins at a point on Route 45 southwest of Stillwater."

It could also go south and follow I-94 and MN-95 to Stillwater. Either route touches Lake Elmo, one of the locations in the route description. (I'm surprised Lake Elmo was noteworthy in 1920 when this amendment was passed).

In the future, though, if the state turns back MN-120, it would probably have to turn back MN-5 in Ramsey County west of 120 as well, at least as far as the St. Paul city limits, or change the description of the corresponding Legislative Route 109 for MN-5 in St. Paul. I wouldn't be surprised to see MN-5 eliminated east of downtown St. Paul anyway, since it's just on city streets.