New Jersey Turnpike

[paul02474]

-NJTP should be Philadelphia past the GWB to exit 6.
-South of exit 6 it should be Wilmington
-NB NJTP  should be NYC until 14
         14-Holland/Lower Manhattan
         16-Lincoln-Midtown
         18-GWB-Bronx
-80 W should be Paterson, then WB/S

I don't see how you can argue for Wilmington (a small city situated a few miles off the highway) and argue against Trenton (a small city that happens to be the state capitol, situated a few miles off the highway).

I think the Philadelphia - Baltimore scheme makes the most sense. Use Philadelphia for the portion of the southbound Turnpike that is also I-95, and sign the split for I-95 South Philadelphia and Turnpike South Baltimore.

Also, I am not a fan of Paterson as a control city for westbound I-80, but I can't think of a better choice. Parsippany? Netcong? Allamuchy Township? MUTCD would suggest Delaware Water Gap, but you need to get to Youngstown or Cleveland before you reach a meaningful city along I-80.

Meanwhile, the devilish control cities would be:
NJ Turnpike South to Newark (Delaware)
I-80 West to Jersey Shore (Pennsylvania)

[famartin]

-NJTP should be Philadelphia past the GWB to exit 6.
-South of exit 6 it should be Wilmington
-NB NJTP  should be NYC until 14
         14-Holland/Lower Manhattan
         16-Lincoln-Midtown
         18-GWB-Bronx
-80 W should be Paterson, then WB/S

I don't see how you can argue for Wilmington (a small city situated a few miles off the highway) and argue against Trenton (a small city that happens to be the state capitol, situated a few miles off the highway).

Wilmington metro (New Castle County) has almost double the population of Trenton metro (Mercer County), if that counts for anything.

Also, Trenton is now about 5 miles from I-95's closest approach to the city limits. By comparison, the end of the NJ Turnpike is only 2 miles from the Wilmington land limits (closer if you include what is the Delaware River portion of the city).

[jeffandnicole]

-NJTP should be Philadelphia past the GWB to exit 6.
-South of exit 6 it should be Wilmington
-NB NJTP  should be NYC until 14
         14-Holland/Lower Manhattan
         16-Lincoln-Midtown
         18-GWB-Bronx
-80 W should be Paterson, then WB/S

I don't see how you can argue for Wilmington (a small city situated a few miles off the highway) and argue against Trenton (a small city that happens to be the state capitol, situated a few miles off the highway).

Wilmington metro (New Castle County) has almost double the population of Trenton metro (Mercer County), if that counts for anything.

New Castle County's size is more than twice of that of Mercer County, yet doesn't have twice the population, if that counts for anything.

(it doesn't)

Personally, if it were up to me (it isn't), I would use a destination that is significant to most motorists.  Wilmington isn't it.  Baltimore is.  The Maryland House is more meaningful to motorists on the NJ Turnpike than Wilmington is, based on the questions I was asked sitting in a toll booth.  Hell, I was probably asked more how to get to Dover for the NASCAR races twice a year than I was asked how to get to Wilmington over an entire year.

[paul02474]

Wilmington metro (New Castle County) has almost double the population of Trenton metro (Mercer County), if that counts for anything.

Also, Trenton is now about 5 miles from I-95's closest approach to the city limits. By comparison, the end of the NJ Turnpike is only 2 miles from the Wilmington land limits (closer if you include what is the Delaware River portion of the city).

You are making my argument for me. By engaging in the argument of how far from the highway (2 miles to the edge of the corporate limits versus 5 miles), or the size of the county, you acknowledge the difference between Wilmington and Trenton is small enough to engage in a reasonable debate.

All I am saying is that we can debate the merits of Philadelphia - Baltimore versus Trenton - Wilmington. I don't think you can justify Trenton - Baltimore or Philadelphia - Wilmington.

[famartin]

-NJTP should be Philadelphia past the GWB to exit 6.
-South of exit 6 it should be Wilmington
-NB NJTP  should be NYC until 14
         14-Holland/Lower Manhattan
         16-Lincoln-Midtown
         18-GWB-Bronx
-80 W should be Paterson, then WB/S

I don't see how you can argue for Wilmington (a small city situated a few miles off the highway) and argue against Trenton (a small city that happens to be the state capitol, situated a few miles off the highway).

Wilmington metro (New Castle County) has almost double the population of Trenton metro (Mercer County), if that counts for anything.

New Castle County's size is more than twice of that of Mercer County, yet doesn't have twice the population, if that counts for anything.

(it doesn't)

Personally, if it were up to me (it isn't), I would use a destination that is significant to most motorists.  Wilmington isn't it.  Baltimore is.  The Maryland House is more meaningful to motorists on the NJ Turnpike than Wilmington is, based on the questions I was asked sitting in a toll booth.  Hell, I was probably asked more how to get to Dover for the NASCAR races twice a year than I was asked how to get to Wilmington over an entire year.

That's fair. Baltimore does have merit, for sure. I was just sayin'.

Maybe the turnpike could switch entirely to using "Philadelphia/Baltimore" south of the 80 junction.  I'd be fine with that if MDTA would then switch to using "Philadelphia/New York" along I-95 in Maryland

[famartin]

Wilmington metro (New Castle County) has almost double the population of Trenton metro (Mercer County), if that counts for anything.

Also, Trenton is now about 5 miles from I-95's closest approach to the city limits. By comparison, the end of the NJ Turnpike is only 2 miles from the Wilmington land limits (closer if you include what is the Delaware River portion of the city).

You are making my argument for me. By engaging in the argument of how far from the highway (2 miles to the edge of the corporate limits versus 5 miles), or the size of the county, you acknowledge the difference between Wilmington and Trenton is small enough to engage in a reasonable debate.

All I am saying is that we can debate the merits of Philadelphia - Baltimore versus Trenton - Wilmington. I don't think you can justify Trenton - Baltimore or Philadelphia - Wilmington.

Absolutely.

[Rothman]

I know this control city debate is pertinent to the Turnpike, but it'd be better if this thread was for actual developments occurring on the Turnpike rather than opinions on what should be done on it that are essentially fictional.

[paul02474]

I know this control city debate is pertinent to the Turnpike, but it'd be better if this thread was for actual developments occurring on the Turnpike rather than opinions on what should be done on it that are essentially fictional.

I am not sure what here is fictional - the Turnpike or Philadelphia?

[odditude]

I know this control city debate is pertinent to the Turnpike, but it'd be better if this thread was for actual developments occurring on the Turnpike rather than opinions on what should be done on it that are essentially fictional.

I am not sure what here is fictional - the Turnpike or Philadelphia?

neither, it's NJTA changing the control cities.

[paul02474]

I know this control city debate is pertinent to the Turnpike, but it'd be better if this thread was for actual developments occurring on the Turnpike rather than opinions on what should be done on it that are essentially fictional.

I am not sure what here is fictional - the Turnpike or Philadelphia?

neither, it's NJTA changing the control cities.

I don't think criticism of current control cities (or lack thereof), and voicing an opinion about what should be installed on the signs, would seem to be on topic,

[Alps]

I know this control city debate is pertinent to the Turnpike, but it'd be better if this thread was for actual developments occurring on the Turnpike rather than opinions on what should be done on it that are essentially fictional.

I am not sure what here is fictional - the Turnpike or Philadelphia?

neither, it's NJTA changing the control cities.

I don't think criticism of current control cities (or lack thereof), and voicing an opinion about what should be installed on the signs, would seem to be on topic,

It is. We're debating the merits of what's signed vs. what could be.

[Rothman]

I know this control city debate is pertinent to the Turnpike, but it'd be better if this thread was for actual developments occurring on the Turnpike rather than opinions on what should be done on it that are essentially fictional.

I am not sure what here is fictional - the Turnpike or Philadelphia?

neither, it's NJTA changing the control cities.

I don't think criticism of current control cities (or lack thereof), and voicing an opinion about what should be installed on the signs, would seem to be on topic,

It is. We're debating the merits of what's signed vs. what could be.

Sounds like it's more appropriate for the Control Cities thread.  It's speculation and opinion more than based upon any real proposal.

[TheGrassGuy]

The old interchange between the Turnpike and the Parkway, predating I-287 and NJ-440 and numbered 10 instead of 11.

[roadman65]

I know this control city debate is pertinent to the Turnpike, but it'd be better if this thread was for actual developments occurring on the Turnpike rather than opinions on what should be done on it that are essentially fictional.

I am not sure what here is fictional - the Turnpike or Philadelphia?

neither, it's NJTA changing the control cities.

I don't think criticism of current control cities (or lack thereof), and voicing an opinion about what should be installed on the signs, would seem to be on topic,

Baltimore is a topic similar to I-76 should be the ACE.  People have to play this one out just like the I-76 extension.  Telling them to move on is like preaching to the choir.

[bluecountry]

Wilmington metro (New Castle County) has almost double the population of Trenton metro (Mercer County), if that counts for anything.

Also, Trenton is now about 5 miles from I-95's closest approach to the city limits. By comparison, the end of the NJ Turnpike is only 2 miles from the Wilmington land limits (closer if you include what is the Delaware River portion of the city).

You are making my argument for me. By engaging in the argument of how far from the highway (2 miles to the edge of the corporate limits versus 5 miles), or the size of the county, you acknowledge the difference between Wilmington and Trenton is small enough to engage in a reasonable debate.

All I am saying is that we can debate the merits of Philadelphia - Baltimore versus Trenton - Wilmington. I don't think you can justify Trenton - Baltimore or Philadelphia - Wilmington.

Trenton is a minor city, Wilmington is a pretty big city right off I-95, and 65 miles from Baltimore.
It does not make sense to sign Baltimore in New Jersey before Wilmington.
Makes much sense to sign Baltimore after Wilmington, especially given the 65 mile gap.

[bluecountry]

Just want to say, driving the NJTP every month, I impressed with how smooth and free flowing it is.
Is it really the 6 to 9 widening that did the job?

I recall in the 2000s how in Central Jersey it would always be jammed; amazing how great the NJTP is now.

[roadman65]

Wilmington metro (New Castle County) has almost double the population of Trenton metro (Mercer County), if that counts for anything.

Also, Trenton is now about 5 miles from I-95's closest approach to the city limits. By comparison, the end of the NJ Turnpike is only 2 miles from the Wilmington land limits (closer if you include what is the Delaware River portion of the city).

You are making my argument for me. By engaging in the argument of how far from the highway (2 miles to the edge of the corporate limits versus 5 miles), or the size of the county, you acknowledge the difference between Wilmington and Trenton is small enough to engage in a reasonable debate.

All I am saying is that we can debate the merits of Philadelphia - Baltimore versus Trenton - Wilmington. I don't think you can justify Trenton - Baltimore or Philadelphia - Wilmington.

Trenton is a minor city, Wilmington is a pretty big city right off I-95, and 65 miles from Baltimore.
It does not make sense to sign Baltimore in New Jersey before Wilmington.
Makes much sense to sign Baltimore after Wilmington, especially given the 65 mile gap.

The NJTA is not the first to use minor cities over bigger ones. Benson is popular on I-95 in NC and so is using Naples on I-75 south in all ramps south of Wesley Chapel.  The latter is a minor one compared to previous Fort Myers which is a major one in SW Florida.

[famartin]

Just want to say, driving the NJTP every month, I impressed with how smooth and free flowing it is.
Is it really the 6 to 9 widening that did the job?

Yes.

[sprjus4]

Wilmington metro (New Castle County) has almost double the population of Trenton metro (Mercer County), if that counts for anything.

Also, Trenton is now about 5 miles from I-95's closest approach to the city limits. By comparison, the end of the NJ Turnpike is only 2 miles from the Wilmington land limits (closer if you include what is the Delaware River portion of the city).

You are making my argument for me. By engaging in the argument of how far from the highway (2 miles to the edge of the corporate limits versus 5 miles), or the size of the county, you acknowledge the difference between Wilmington and Trenton is small enough to engage in a reasonable debate.

All I am saying is that we can debate the merits of Philadelphia - Baltimore versus Trenton - Wilmington. I don't think you can justify Trenton - Baltimore or Philadelphia - Wilmington.

Trenton is a minor city, Wilmington is a pretty big city right off I-95, and 65 miles from Baltimore.
It does not make sense to sign Baltimore in New Jersey before Wilmington.
Makes much sense to sign Baltimore after Wilmington, especially given the 65 mile gap.

The NJTA is not the first to use minor cities over bigger ones. Benson is popular on I-95 in NC and so is using Naples on I-75 south in all ramps south of Wesley Chapel.  The latter is a minor one compared to previous Fort Myers which is a major one in SW Florida.

Just make I-75 South Miami south of Tampa and call it a day, vice versa with Tampa out of Miami.

[SignBridge]

Aren't the control cities on Interstates supposed to be major cities? You can drive on the I-405 northbound in Los Angeles and see Sacramento as the control city, which is hundreds of miles away.

[Roadgeekteen]

The southbound NJ Turnpike control cities should be Philadelphia when on I-95 and Baltimore south of there. No Trenton, no Wilmington. NYC should always be signed going north.

[roadman65]

Wilmington is prominent as it's the crossroads to the Delmarva and I-95 heading south.  Trenton is the capital of the state. Sign it with Philly out of North Jersey. Leave Wilmington south of Mansfield.

[sprjus4]

Wilmington is prominent as it's the crossroads to the Delmarva and I-95 heading south.  Trenton is the capital of the state. Sign it with Philly out of North Jersey. Leave Wilmington south of Mansfield.

Baltimore, Philadelphia, and New York City are much more prominent, well known cities and more proper long distance control cities than the others.

[jeffandnicole]

Wilmington is prominent as it's the crossroads to the Delmarva and I-95 heading south.  Trenton is the capital of the state. Sign it with Philly out of North Jersey. Leave Wilmington south of Mansfield.

Wilmington is bypassed by 295 to 95 on the south side. 

Non-stop arguments are made on these forums that 95 shouldn't even go thru Wilmington, and should be switched to the faster bypass.  This is probably one of the most common contradictions I see written - people want to use Wilmington as a control city, cities should be used only on highways that go thru cities, but then route its only 2 di interstate highway around the city (yes, sure, it will still 'touch' the city, but only because the city's borders extend into the river).

On Northbound 95, no one ever makes the argument that Wilmington should be signed in Maryland, and even Delaware doesn't sign 95 for Wilmington until you're north of DE 1.

If Wilmington was nearly any place else in the country, it would be of greater importance.  And if we were talking about other subjects, it would be of greater importance.  But in terms of roads and highways and destinations, Wilmington as a control city doesn't "drive" people to the city, and more often than not people look for highways to avoid the city.

[Roadgeekteen]

Wilmington is prominent as it's the crossroads to the Delmarva and I-95 heading south.  Trenton is the capital of the state. Sign it with Philly out of North Jersey. Leave Wilmington south of Mansfield.

The NJ Turnpike goes through neither Wilmington nor Trenton and unlike Baltimore they are not big enough to justify signed them indirectly (Trenton you even have to leave freeways to get there).