North Carolina

[brownpelican]

Included in today's NCDOT STIP announcement:

"Widening of I-85 from U.S. 74 to the South Carolina line in Gaston and Cleveland counties" (Division 11) and "I-85 Widening between west of U.S. 70 in Orange County to Durham." (Division 7) is now included in the STIP. Once completed, I-85 in NC will be a minimum of 6 lanes for the first marked 179 miles, from the SC line to north of Durham. Only the northernmost 55 miles of 85 in NC will be 4 lanes.

Additionally, by the time this project is complete, SCDOT is scheduled to have finished widening their stretch of 85 from Exit 80 to the state line. This would leave just 70 miles of four-laned I-85 between Charlotte and Atlanta (GA Mile 129 with current widening project to SC Mile 19). As someone who drives this stretch a lot, I can not express how welcome a relief this will be though the missing Georgia segment is particularly annoying due to the numerous hills that slows trucks way down on the stretch.

That will be HUGE.

[sparker]

Technically I-74 is complete in Virginia as it is to follow I-77 entirely from West VA state line to NC state line. Virginia did not sign I-74 along I-77 for some reason.

 


Why should they?  NC only has about 8 miles signed south of the border, and WV has no segment of I-74 built.

Wrong. I-74 starts/ends at NC border with I-77 and then splits from I-77 and then "ends" at US 52.. that is 17 miles. They could have signed it at least to I-81.

Pretty sure he meant 8 miles independent of I-77...

While there isn't any harm in Virginia signing it to I-81 or even to WV, not sure it benefits Virginia drivers that much.

Frankly, unless there's any activity within WV toward actually constructing I-74 (as well as I-73) in that state (yeah, right!!!), everything north of the current I-74/77 interchange in NC is a useless multiplex.  This is the one instance in which VA inaction regarding Interstates is actually appropriate.     

[ARMOURERERIC]

I read some of the new STIP today, is there a summary of expedited projects?

My biggest wish list item is now on for 2025, widening I-40 to 6 lanes from 321 to 77.

Also a "study" to widen 40 from 26 to NC9 now appears, this will be needed in 10-15 years.

[bob7374]

Technically I-74 is complete in Virginia as it is to follow I-77 entirely from West VA state line to NC state line. Virginia did not sign I-74 along I-77 for some reason.

 


Why should they?  NC only has about 8 miles signed south of the border, and WV has no segment of I-74 built.

Wrong. I-74 starts/ends at NC border with I-77 and then splits from I-77 and then "ends" at US 52.. that is 17 miles. They could have signed it at least to I-81.

Pretty sure he meant 8 miles independent of I-77...

While there isn't any harm in Virginia signing it to I-81 or even to WV, not sure it benefits Virginia drivers that much.

Frankly, unless there's any activity within WV toward actually constructing I-74 (as well as I-73) in that state (yeah, right!!!), everything north of the current I-74/77 interchange in NC is a useless multiplex.  This is the one instance in which VA inaction regarding Interstates is actually appropriate.     

Agreed for now. Don't believe there's any point in VA signing I-74, whether they want to or not, until the route is completed through the Winston-Salem area. Then there would be a signed I-74 in NC for at least 140 continuous miles and potentially worthy of its extension up to I-81 in VA.

[sparker]

Technically I-74 is complete in Virginia as it is to follow I-77 entirely from West VA state line to NC state line. Virginia did not sign I-74 along I-77 for some reason.

 


Why should they?  NC only has about 8 miles signed south of the border, and WV has no segment of I-74 built.

Wrong. I-74 starts/ends at NC border with I-77 and then splits from I-77 and then "ends" at US 52.. that is 17 miles. They could have signed it at least to I-81.

Pretty sure he meant 8 miles independent of I-77...

While there isn't any harm in Virginia signing it to I-81 or even to WV, not sure it benefits Virginia drivers that much.

Frankly, unless there's any activity within WV toward actually constructing I-74 (as well as I-73) in that state (yeah, right!!!), everything north of the current I-74/77 interchange in NC is a useless multiplex.  This is the one instance in which VA inaction regarding Interstates is actually appropriate.     

Agreed for now. Don't believe there's any point in VA signing I-74, whether they want to or not, until the route is completed through the Winston-Salem area. Then there would be a signed I-74 in NC for at least 140 continuous miles and potentially worthy of its extension up to I-81 in VA.

Come to think of it, signing I-74 along I-77 but limiting signage to south of I-81 may be helpful in channeling Winston-Salem (and beyond) traffic from the I-81 corridor, once the portion of I-74 along US 52, along with the W-S bypass, is fully completed.  But anything further NW than the east I-77/81 junction would be pointless without a northern/western extension of I-74, which is not likely to occur in the foreseeable future. 

[The Ghostbuster]

I doubt we'll see Interstate 74 signed in Virginia within the next 50 years, if ever. The same with 73. I have a feeling the two routes may never leave North Carolina.

[Mileage Mike]

I doubt we'll see Interstate 74 signed in Virginia within the next 50 years, if ever. The same with 73. I have a feeling the two routes may never leave North Carolina.

Agreed. I've always felt the route was mostly unnecessary even in NC so it's not surprising that the other states aren't bothering with building it.

[LM117]

I doubt we'll see Interstate 74 signed in Virginia within the next 50 years, if ever. The same with 73. I have a feeling the two routes may never leave North Carolina.

Eh...at least South Carolina has been fighting like hell to get I-73 going. They just got a permit from the Army Corps of Engineers and their senators recently met with the USDOT secretary trying to get funding, so I'll give SC credit for that. I think sooner or later they'll get the ball rolling.

Virginia, on the other hand, hasn't done jackshit except pass meaningless resolutions. The most recent bill isn't worth the paper it's printed on because it's required to be taken up for a vote again next year after this year's gubernatorial elections in November. It's basically a way of telling SW VA "there, we did something. Now STFU". Frank Wagner was the only gubernatorial candidate that gave a shit about transportation needs outside of (but not excluding) the usual urban areas (NoVA, Richmond, Hampton Roads). But as expected, he got his ass handed to him in the GOP primary. I didn't agree with him on everything, but it was very refreshing to hear a gubernatorial candidate realize that the status quo regarding infrastructure throughout the rest of the state isn't cutting it anymore.

[Beltway]

I doubt we'll see Interstate 74 signed in Virginia within the next 50 years, if ever. The same with 73. I have a feeling the two routes may never leave North Carolina.

Eh...at least South Carolina has been fighting like hell to get I-73 going. They just got a permit from the Army Corps of Engineers and their senators recently met with the USDOT secretary trying to get funding, so I'll give SC credit for that. I think sooner or later they'll get the ball rolling.

Virginia, on the other hand, hasn't done jackshit except pass meaningless resolutions. The most recent bill isn't worth the paper it's printed on because it's required to be taken up for a vote again next year after this year's gubernatorial elections in November. It's basically a way of telling SW VA "there, we did something. Now STFU". Frank Wagner was the only gubernatorial candidate that gave a shit about transportation needs outside of (but not excluding) the usual urban areas (NoVA, Richmond, Hampton Roads). But as expected, he got his ass handed to him in the GOP primary. I didn't agree with him on everything, but it was very refreshing to hear a gubernatorial candidate realize that the status quo regarding infrastructure throughout the rest of the state isn't cutting it anymore.

Virginia conducted a full location/EIS process for I-73 and that took 8 years to arrive at a FHWA-approved Final EIS and FHWA-approved Record of Decision.

Again, where is the $4 billion (actually that figure is about 5 years old now) going to come from?

The existing US-220 is a 4-lane divided highway of which 30% of the length is on limited access right-of-way.  If parts of it were only 2-lanes there would be a more compelling reason to build a new highway, but that is not the case.  If parts of it were severely congested there would be a more compelling reason to build a new highway, but that is not the case.

[WashuOtaku]

Virginia conducted a full location/EIS process for I-73 and that took 8 years to arrive at a FHWA-approved Final EIS and FHWA-approved Record of Decision.

Again, where is the $4 billion (actually that figure is about 5 years old now) going to come from?

The existing US-220 is a 4-lane divided highway of which 30% of the length is on limited access right-of-way.  If parts of it were only 2-lanes there would be a more compelling reason to build a new highway, but that is not the case.  If parts of it were severely congested there would be a more compelling reason to build a new highway, but that is not the case.

Virginia dragged its feet through the eight year process.  The $4 billion is a lot of money, but nobody is talking about building all at once either; put $400 million for this section and $600 million for that section in the next 5-10 years and by 20-30 years you have an interstate like North Carolina did.

Whatever they decide with US 220 they will likely redo the environmental study again because it was years from the last.  They will again drag their feet on it while they allocate most of the highway dollars to Northern Virginia.

[wdcrft63]

I doubt we'll see Interstate 74 signed in Virginia within the next 50 years, if ever. The same with 73. I have a feeling the two routes may never leave North Carolina.

I see no point in Virginia signing I-74, even if NC builds all of its section. I do hope Virginia builds I-73 to Roanoke eventually, although I'm certainly not optimistic about seeing it anytime in the next 20 years or so.

[Strider]

I doubt we'll see Interstate 74 signed in Virginia within the next 50 years, if ever. The same with 73. I have a feeling the two routes may never leave North Carolina.

I see no point in Virginia signing I-74, even if NC builds all of its section. I do hope Virginia builds I-73 to Roanoke eventually, although I'm certainly not optimistic about seeing it anytime in the next 20 years or so.

I-74 probably will not leave NC (the southeast extension to through the swamp to MB is probably not going to be built), and all three states are solely focused on fighting for and/or building I-73. That is the reason why I think I-74 should just end at I-73 instead of the proposed 75-mile concurrency throughout the state.

[Beltway]

Virginia conducted a full location/EIS process for I-73 and that took 8 years to arrive at a FHWA-approved Final EIS and FHWA-approved Record of Decision.
Again, where is the $4 billion (actually that figure is about 5 years old now) going to come from?
The existing US-220 is a 4-lane divided highway of which 30% of the length is on limited access right-of-way.  If parts of it were only 2-lanes there would be a more compelling reason to build a new highway, but that is not the case.  If parts of it were severely congested there would be a more compelling reason to build a new highway, but that is not the case.

Virginia dragged its feet through the eight year process.  The $4 billion is a lot of money, but nobody is talking about building all at once either; put $400 million for this section and $600 million for that section in the next 5-10 years and by 20-30 years you have an interstate like North Carolina did.
Whatever they decide with US 220 they will likely redo the environmental study again because it was years from the last.  They will again drag their feet on it while they allocate most of the highway dollars to Northern Virginia.

Eight years is about what it takes to go thru a location/EIS process on major freeway project, hold public hearings, get regulatory agency reviews, and proceed to approval of Final EIS and ROD.  An EIS Reevaluation is not a complicated process and would take a year or so.

As I said before, on I-73 to build fully usable SIU you can't break it up into 8 or 10 pieces, I see at best two major SIU and one minor SIU.

Most of existing I-73 in NC paralleled a 2-lane US-220.  Not the case in VA.

"Most of the highway dollars" do not go to NOVA, never has been the case, although with 1/4 of the state's population they do get a considerable sum.

Meanwhile a more basic priority in that region is finding the $500 million to complete the 4-laning of US-58 Hillsville-Stuart.  That takes priority over I-73 IMHO.

[VTGoose]

It seems no other state wants anything to do with the Interstates North Carolina is building. Does that prove those Interstates are pure pork?

It just means that North Carolina borders on Virginia, which doesn't seem to have much of an appetite for anything outside defined metro areas (particularly in the north) these days.  The state/local jurisdictional arrangement in VA is different (commonwealth with functionally autonomous internal divisions) than NC (more conventional incorporated cities with regional MPO cooperatives as needed).  There's much more cooperation at state & local levels in NC; if a project is seen as benefiting the region, it stands a significantly greater chance of getting broad support across official strata than with VA, which tends to pit one metro area against another for allocation of statewide resources, with Northern Virginia (and occasionally Richmond/Petersburg or Hampton Roads) getting most of the developmental activity due to sheer population dominance.  The demand within a specific region tends to override any impetus for activities between those regions.  Of course, this places projects seen as providing benefits shared with other states ( i.e. I-73, I-87) at the very rear of that back shelf.

Virginia is also heavily gerrymandered when it comes to General Assembly (House and Senate) districts to keep republicans in office -- most of them tax-adverse (but they have yet to meet a fee they had no problem increasing). Even though there have been calls to increase the gas tax to support increased highway maintenance (and new construction), the General Assembly weaseled out of doing what needed to be done by passing only a small increase in the wholesale tax (which was passed on to consumers anyway -- but the delegates could with a straight face tell voters they DID NOT vote to increase the gas tax). The last major push to add money for roads was under Gov. Jerry Baliles (1986 to 1990).

Bruce in Blacksburg

[sparker]

It seems no other state wants anything to do with the Interstates North Carolina is building. Does that prove those Interstates are pure pork?

It just means that North Carolina borders on Virginia, which doesn't seem to have much of an appetite for anything outside defined metro areas (particularly in the north) these days.  The state/local jurisdictional arrangement in VA is different (commonwealth with functionally autonomous internal divisions) than NC (more conventional incorporated cities with regional MPO cooperatives as needed).  There's much more cooperation at state & local levels in NC; if a project is seen as benefiting the region, it stands a significantly greater chance of getting broad support across official strata than with VA, which tends to pit one metro area against another for allocation of statewide resources, with Northern Virginia (and occasionally Richmond/Petersburg or Hampton Roads) getting most of the developmental activity due to sheer population dominance.  The demand within a specific region tends to override any impetus for activities between those regions.  Of course, this places projects seen as providing benefits shared with other states ( i.e. I-73, I-87) at the very rear of that back shelf.

Virginia is also heavily gerrymandered when it comes to General Assembly (House and Senate) districts to keep republicans in office -- most of them tax-adverse (but they have yet to meet a fee they had no problem increasing). Even though there have been calls to increase the gas tax to support increased highway maintenance (and new construction), the General Assembly weaseled out of doing what needed to be done by passing only a small increase in the wholesale tax (which was passed on to consumers anyway -- but the delegates could with a straight face tell voters they DID NOT vote to increase the gas tax). The last major push to add money for roads was under Gov. Jerry Baliles (1986 to 1990).

Bruce in Blacksburg

While Republicans are, at least in their present iteration, almost pathologically tax-averse (they tend to see taxes as essentially redistribution of income/resources, while fees are seen as much less so -- the functional equivalent of a "flat tax"), statewide road projects, especially those in rural or outlying areas, don't fare particularly well under a Democratic regime.  When the D's hold sway (unless there's a healthy dose of rural ones in the mix), they tend to funnel most transportation expenditures into urban-based mass transit projects as part of their own knee-jerk dismissal of roads and driving as either intrinsically harmful or at least outdated. 

No "win-win" situation to be seen here regardless of who wields the strings of both power and purse!  But VA's not unlike other states with a distinct urban/rural dichotomy; to get anything out of each faction's mainstream accomplished, a groundswell of project support from the area affected needs to be loud, continuous -- and, at times, just plan obnoxious (at least to those in power).  Sometimes sneaky works as well (bill "riders", backroom deals -- all the things associated with quasi-corrupt politics that actually kept the system rolling in days gone by).  It won't be nostalgia that brings effective politicking back -- just the accumulated detritus/shit from years of inaction.  Whether that happens sooner or later in any given jurisdiction is anyone's guess!

[Beltway]

Virginia is also heavily gerrymandered when it comes to General Assembly (House and Senate) districts to keep republicans in office -- most of them tax-adverse (but they have yet to meet a fee they had no problem increasing). Even though there have been calls to increase the gas tax to support increased highway maintenance (and new construction), the General Assembly weaseled out of doing what needed to be done by passing only a small increase in the wholesale tax (which was passed on to consumers anyway -- but the delegates could with a straight face tell voters they DID NOT vote to increase the gas tax). The last major push to add money for roads was under Gov. Jerry Baliles (1986 to 1990).
Bruce in Blacksburg

The state supreme court disagrees with that first claim about gerrymandering, per several recent rulings in the last decade.  Of course the Democrat Party ruled the General Assembly thru gerrymandering from about 1900 to 1990, often with 85-90% supermajorities in both houses, effectively one-party rule; since then the General Assembly has been much more balanced proportionally between the two parties.  [state Senate district boundaries can be and are periodically changed based on population distribution, unlike with the U.S. Senate which is based on entire states]

Virginia transportation tax funding has increased more than 50% over where it was 5 years ago --

http://www.virginiadot.org/newsroom/statewide/2017/commonwealth_transportation_board_approves six-year115943.asp
COMMONWEALTH TRANSPORTATION BOARD APPROVES SIX-YEAR IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM
$18.6 billion in road, bridge, rail and public transportation improvements
...

"The Virginia Department of Transportation's (VDOT) annual budget for Fiscal Year 2018 is $5.4 billion".

By far the largest budget of any VA state agency.

[Mapmikey]

NCDOT has added I-42 and I-87 to their "proposed route changes" page.  No estimated dates and no indication of what they are waiting on (sometimes these will say AASHTO or Ordinances...these just say future).

Only info is diagrams of the full corridors.  The I-42 one is still labeled as I-36...


https://connect.ncdot.gov/resources/safety/Pages/Route-Changes.aspx

[CanesFan27]

Are changes coming to how the NC Turnpike Authority collects tolls? 

http://surewhynotnow.blogspot.com/2017/07/are-changes-coming-to-triangle.html

[plain]

Are changes coming to how the NC Turnpike Authority collects tolls? 

http://surewhynotnow.blogspot.com/2017/07/are-changes-coming-to-triangle.html

Not sure why NC would even consider a FLEX option on this road. The road is nowhere near congested and the whole reason it's tolled in the first place is to recoup the cost of building it. I wouldn't take that blog too seriously

[froggie]

^ You realize "that blog" is written by CanesFan27, right?  Who lives in the Raleigh area and has been an online roadgeek since the days of MTR...

[CanesFan27]

Are changes coming to how the NC Turnpike Authority collects tolls? 

http://surewhynotnow.blogspot.com/2017/07/are-changes-coming-to-triangle.html

Not sure why NC would even consider a FLEX option on this road. The road is nowhere near congested and the whole reason it's tolled in the first place is to recoup the cost of building it. I wouldn't take that blog too seriously

I'm not saying they are.  When the news hit my Twitter feed, i was trying to think what possible changes could be made.  I've reached out to the person that posted on Twitter to see if they would share any additional information.  If they do or don't, it's something I think worth following.

[plain]

Sorry, I didn't know that it was created by someone on here... my response to it is still the same though. What exactly is wrong with the toll structure that's currently in place for this road?

[CanesFan27]

Sorry, I didn't know that it was created by someone on here... my response to it is still the same though. What exactly is wrong with the toll structure that's currently in place for this road?

Easy - shortening the length of time to pay. If 40% are non-tag holders and it's taking on average 25 days to pay they may be looking at new payment options to improve that time period.

They also could be looking at what other options can be done to increase the number of user that have transponders.

[HazMatt]

Sorry, I didn't know that it was created by someone on here... my response to it is still the same though. What exactly is wrong with the toll structure that's currently in place for this road?

Easy - shortening the length of time to pay. If 40% are non-tag holders and it's taking on average 25 days to pay they may be looking at new payment options to improve that time period.

They also could be looking at what other options can be done to increase the number of user that have transponders.

It seems counter-intuitive to me when you consider they charge non-tag holders 50% more.  That twitter account also states that the 40% are OCR'd (by a human). Uh...what?  Humans would have to check the very small percentage of plates it couldn't read accurately.  Maybe they meant 4%?

[cpzilliacus]

pilotonline.com: New Bonner Bridge is bigger, stronger, taller and able to withstand the worst OBX climate offers

Bonner Bridge engineer Pablo Hernandez slowly motored the boat near a T-shaped structure rising almost 100 feet above Oregon Inlet.

Size matters in this unforgiving environment.

"Everything is bigger and heavier,"  he said. "Nothing here is routine."

Men and machines up top, appearing miniature, lifted into place a 100-ton segment of concrete similar in shape to a roof truss, adding another piece to the road bed.

The $250 million span 2.8 miles long is built to last a century. Engineers ran the design through more than 100,000 computer simulations of the 45 worst storms to strike the Outer Banks in the past 160 years. The models included the worst possible inlet currents, the biggest waves and highest water levels. They even accounted for a big, out-of-control barge slamming into its supports.