https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/florida-is-rejecting-320-million-in-federal-funding-to-reduce-emissions-calling-it-politicization-of-our-roadways/ar-AA1lE2Rr?cvid=c394b26e37544e6bb4d32b579a46d0ce&ocid=winp2fptaskbarhover&ei=38
Quote from: Otto Yamamoto on December 17, 2023, 11:08:53 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/florida-is-rejecting-320-million-in-federal-funding-to-reduce-emissions-calling-it-politicization-of-our-roadways/ar-AA1lE2Rr?cvid=c394b26e37544e6bb4d32b579a46d0ce&ocid=winp2fptaskbarhover&ei=38
What a freakin' fool...
Can't say exactly why on here, though...
Basically, DOTs know how to utilize the funding to show the benefits while still achieving established goals for their capital programs.
Taking a political stand against the funding like this is idiotic...at least in states where the populace understands that turning down $320m in loosely-regulated federal funding is stupid...
The rejection appears to be only of a pot of money earmarked for projects aimed at reducing emissions.
Still, it's $320M in free money flushed away. I'm sure the folks at FDOT could have figured out how to use that money in a way that generates other benefits if given the chance, but DeSantis is being DeSantis.
I mean, he is campaigning for president, so I suppose it isn't too surprising he'd pull a stunt like this as a campaign ad of sorts... :rolleyes:
That sure is the decision of all time (https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/one-of-the-x-of-all-time). Ron DeSantis is really gearing up to become one of the governors Florida ever had.
Quote from: Duke87 on December 17, 2023, 11:29:39 PM
The rejection appears to be only of a pot of money earmarked for projects aimed at reducing emissions.
Still, it's $320M in free money flushed away. I'm sure the folks at FDOT could have figured out how to use that money in a way that generates other benefits if given the chance, but DeSantis is being DeSantis.
There's an echo in the thread... :D
Quote from: LilianaUwU on December 18, 2023, 01:16:03 AM
Ron DeSantis is really gearing up to become one of the governors Florida ever had.
Without so much as a hint of political partisanship, I can assure you that he already is.
Quote from: kphoger on December 18, 2023, 02:23:25 PM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on December 18, 2023, 01:16:03 AM
Ron DeSantis is really gearing up to become one of the governors Florida ever had.
Without so much as a hint of political partisanship, I can assure you that he already is.
Yes, is a certainly understanding, notable, trustworthy elected official.
Quote from: formulanone on December 18, 2023, 03:23:29 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 18, 2023, 02:23:25 PM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on December 18, 2023, 01:16:03 AM
Ron DeSantis is really gearing up to become one of the governors Florida ever had.
Without so much as a hint of political partisanship, I can assure you that he already is.
Yes, is a certainly understanding, notable, trustworthy elected official.
*whoosh* ?
Quote from: Otto Yamamoto on December 17, 2023, 11:08:53 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/florida-is-rejecting-320-million-in-federal-funding-to-reduce-emissions-calling-it-politicization-of-our-roadways/ar-AA1lE2Rr?cvid=c394b26e37544e6bb4d32b579a46d0ce&ocid=winp2fptaskbarhover&ei=38
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on December 18, 2023, 05:19:19 PM
Quote from: Otto Yamamoto on December 17, 2023, 11:08:53 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/florida-is-rejecting-320-million-in-federal-funding-to-reduce-emissions-calling-it-politicization-of-our-roadways/ar-AA1lE2Rr?cvid=c394b26e37544e6bb4d32b579a46d0ce&ocid=winp2fptaskbarhover&ei=38
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Please tell me you're not praising DeSantis' decision.
Someone should tell the governor that roads have been political since at least Thomas H. MacDonald's day.
Isn't this thread too political for this forum? I wouldn't be surprised if this thread is eventually locked. In any event, it remains to be seen what effect this refusal of federal funding will have on the people of Florida.
For many years I was the director of a small state office that depended on federal grants for most of its program delivery. I served during the Clinton, Bush, and most of the Obama administrations. I can confirm that every federal grant application reflects the political thinking of the current administration. What else would you expect? The job of state managers, from the governor down to my low level, was and is to secure all the federal resources available to meet state needs, finding ways to connect those needs to the federal priorities. Turning down federal funds is not doing your job.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 18, 2023, 06:46:54 PM
Isn't this thread too political for this forum? I wouldn't be surprised if this thread is eventually locked.
I'm leaving it open for now since it does directly affect transportation. If the conversation turns acrimonious, though, it will be locked.
Ah yes, turning down free money to "own the libs".
As a government bureaucrat, I know it's possible to make these funds into whatever the heck you want unless they have an unusual amount of restrictions. For this item, I would assume that managed/priced lanes count. Florida loves toll roads already, so this could have very easily been used to expand HOT facilities and still meet the terms of the grant. That is, stuff FDOT already does. But you can't earn campaign points that way.
If memory serves the previous Florida governor turned down billions in HSR money because it mandated that the state DOT foot the gaps in the farebox.
A lot of people got their panties in a wad over that too.
Seems it all turned out OK.
There must have been "fine print" riders in the funding bill that mandated certain activities take place as part of accepting the funding.
DeSantis wouldn't turn it down unless it had some "gotcha" in it. Perhaps more details are needed on exactly why he didn't like it.
Quote from: edwaleni on December 18, 2023, 08:58:34 PM
If memory serves the previous Florida governor turned down billions in HSR money because it mandated that the state DOT foot the gaps in the farebox.
A lot of people got their panties in a wad over that too.
Seems it all turned out OK.
There must have been "fine print" riders in the funding bill that mandated certain activities take place as part of accepting the funding.
DeSantis wouldn't turn it down unless it had some "gotcha" in it. Perhaps more details are needed on exactly why he didn't like it.
I've confirmed that this $6.4 billion is Carbon Reduction Program (CRP) funding through FHWA. As most articles point out, Florida is the only state to turn away the funding.
This is not about a "gotcha," for there is no "gotcha" with CRP.
For decades, states have also received CMAQ funding (Congestion Mitigation Air Quality), which is actually more restrictive than CRP. DeSantis didn't turn CMAQ down, which means this is just a boneheaded political move.
The Tampa newspaper reports FLDOT already was working on a truck parking plan to increase spaces with the CRP funding -- that's how flexible the stuff is. Because DeSantis pulled the plug, that project goes poof.
NYSDOT and the other states besides Florida have no problem with spending it.
But, supporters of politicians will always bend over backwards to try to rationalize when such politicians make poor decisions. The straining for a "gotcha" is just more evidence of this phenomenon.
Quote from: Rothman on December 18, 2023, 10:26:52 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on December 18, 2023, 08:58:34 PM
If memory serves the previous Florida governor turned down billions in HSR money because it mandated that the state DOT foot the gaps in the farebox.
A lot of people got their panties in a wad over that too.
Seems it all turned out OK.
There must have been "fine print" riders in the funding bill that mandated certain activities take place as part of accepting the funding.
DeSantis wouldn't turn it down unless it had some "gotcha" in it. Perhaps more details are needed on exactly why he didn't like it.
I've confirmed that this $6.4 billion is Carbon Reduction Program (CRP) funding through FHWA. As most articles point out, Florida is the only state to turn away the funding.
This is not about a "gotcha," for there is no "gotcha" with CRP.
For decades, states have also received CMAQ funding (Congestion Mitigation Air Quality), which is actually more restrictive than CRP. DeSantis didn't turn CMAQ down, which means this is just a boneheaded political move.
The Tampa newspaper reports FLDOT already was working on a truck parking plan to increase spaces with the CRP funding -- that's how flexible the stuff is. Because DeSantis pulled the plug, that project goes poof.
NYSDOT and the other states besides Florida have no problem with spending it.
But, supporters of politicians will always bend over backwards to try to rationalize when such politicians make poor decisions. The straining for a "gotcha" is just more evidence of this phenomenon.
I wasn't "straining" for a gotcha or trying to rationalize it, I was merely reflecting on what has happened in the past and see if there was other information that perhaps had not been made available. I think that is pretty reasonable.
Please don't be so anxious to put your thoughts or perspectives in my mouth, just because I asked a simple question for more information. I am quite able to reach my own conclusions.
A response that simply ended with, "there were no extra ordinary gotchas found" was adequate.
Quote from: edwaleni on December 18, 2023, 11:52:19 PM
Quote from: Rothman on December 18, 2023, 10:26:52 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on December 18, 2023, 08:58:34 PM
If memory serves the previous Florida governor turned down billions in HSR money because it mandated that the state DOT foot the gaps in the farebox.
A lot of people got their panties in a wad over that too.
Seems it all turned out OK.
There must have been "fine print" riders in the funding bill that mandated certain activities take place as part of accepting the funding.
DeSantis wouldn't turn it down unless it had some "gotcha" in it. Perhaps more details are needed on exactly why he didn't like it.
I've confirmed that this $6.4 billion is Carbon Reduction Program (CRP) funding through FHWA. As most articles point out, Florida is the only state to turn away the funding.
This is not about a "gotcha," for there is no "gotcha" with CRP.
For decades, states have also received CMAQ funding (Congestion Mitigation Air Quality), which is actually more restrictive than CRP. DeSantis didn't turn CMAQ down, which means this is just a boneheaded political move.
The Tampa newspaper reports FLDOT already was working on a truck parking plan to increase spaces with the CRP funding -- that's how flexible the stuff is. Because DeSantis pulled the plug, that project goes poof.
NYSDOT and the other states besides Florida have no problem with spending it.
But, supporters of politicians will always bend over backwards to try to rationalize when such politicians make poor decisions. The straining for a "gotcha" is just more evidence of this phenomenon.
I wasn't "straining" for a gotcha or trying to rationalize it, I was merely reflecting on what has happened in the past and see if there was other information that perhaps had not been made available. I think that is pretty reasonable.
Please don't be so anxious to put your thoughts or perspectives in my mouth, just because I asked a simple question for more information. I am quite able to reach my own conclusions.
A response that simply ended with, "there were no extra ordinary gotchas found" was adequate.
Fair enough, but I wasn't pointing you out individually with that statement, but rather supporters of politicians who make bad decisions in general.
personally thats just dumb as hell. like this is why we probably should just leave the infrastructure of the US to the private sector, and have them do our public works for a few decades.
yes regulation would be needed, but good lord this tribalist banter of both parties has got to stop. our roads need fixing and widening, we need passenger trains linking the metros of the us together, and we definitely need better water and electricity services, especially out west! our infrastructure is in need of upgrades and updating.
Quote from: civilengineeringnerd on January 25, 2024, 12:48:28 AM
personally thats just dumb as hell. like this is why we probably should just leave the infrastructure of the US to the private sector, and have them do our public works for a few decades.
yes regulation would be needed, but good lord this tribalist banter of both parties has got to stop. our roads need fixing and widening, we need passenger trains linking the metros of the us together, and we definitely need better water and electricity services, especially out west! our infrastructure is in need of upgrades and updating.
Given another post you've made in another thread calling for increased taxes, your many posts are becoming like messy collages of transportation policy-related cliches.
DeSantis will leave office in 2027 (due to term limits). Perhaps the next Florida Governor will not be so quick to reject federal funding. I hope he/she supports building new toll roads and new toll lanes.
Quote from: civilengineeringnerd on January 25, 2024, 12:48:28 AM
personally thats just dumb as hell. like this is why we probably should just leave the infrastructure of the US to the private sector, and have them do our public works for a few decades.
yes regulation would be needed, but good lord this tribalist banter of both parties has got to stop. our roads need fixing and widening, we need passenger trains linking the metros of the us together, and we definitely need better water and electricity services, especially out west! our infrastructure is in need of upgrades and updating.
Privatizing things doesn't make the politics go away.
Quote from: Rothman on January 25, 2024, 07:39:35 AM
Quote from: civilengineeringnerd on January 25, 2024, 12:48:28 AM
personally thats just dumb as hell. like this is why we probably should just leave the infrastructure of the US to the private sector, and have them do our public works for a few decades.
yes regulation would be needed, but good lord this tribalist banter of both parties has got to stop. our roads need fixing and widening, we need passenger trains linking the metros of the us together, and we definitely need better water and electricity services, especially out west! our infrastructure is in need of upgrades and updating.
Given another post you've made in another thread calling for increased taxes, your many posts are becoming like messy collages of transportation policy-related cliches.
maybe the case, but still. something has to be done.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 25, 2024, 10:37:37 AM
DeSantis will leave office in 2027 (due to term limits). Perhaps the next Florida Governor will not be so quick to reject federal funding. I hope he/she supports building new toll roads and new toll lanes.
Aside from northeastern states, well, and my home state, isn't Florida already like one of the toll road capitals? And didn't the state just propose a massive toll road expansion that was shut down by environmentalist?
And without trying to be too political, I disagree with DeSantis on a lot of issues, and unless this carbon reduction study, comes with some sort of strings attached type thing where they're required to act on it, I'd just do the study, and move on, and accept the money. But I can also kind of see where he's coming from here. Having this requirement attached to federal money for road expansions or preservation makes no sense to me but whatever.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 29, 2024, 12:55:28 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 25, 2024, 10:37:37 AM
DeSantis will leave office in 2027 (due to term limits). Perhaps the next Florida Governor will not be so quick to reject federal funding. I hope he/she supports building new toll roads and new toll lanes.
Aside from northeastern states, well, and my home state, isn't Florida already like one of the toll road capitals? And didn't the state just propose a massive toll road expansion that was shut down by environmentalist?
And without trying to be too political, I disagree with DeSantis on a lot of issues, and unless this carbon reduction study, comes with some sort of strings attached type thing where they're required to act on it, I'd just do the study, and move on, and accept the money. But I can also kind of see where he's coming from here. Having this requirement attached to federal money for road expansions or preservation makes no sense to me but whatever.
CRP isn't for road expansions or preservation.
Like I said above, the fact that he turned CRP (a new federal program) down while accepting CMAQ (a quite old federal program), when both programs have similar goals and requirements makes this a purely stupid political play at the cost of not being able to fund ped/bike/transit improvements.
Quote from: Rothman on January 29, 2024, 07:13:41 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 29, 2024, 12:55:28 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 25, 2024, 10:37:37 AM
DeSantis will leave office in 2027 (due to term limits). Perhaps the next Florida Governor will not be so quick to reject federal funding. I hope he/she supports building new toll roads and new toll lanes.
Aside from northeastern states, well, and my home state, isn't Florida already like one of the toll road capitals? And didn't the state just propose a massive toll road expansion that was shut down by environmentalist?
And without trying to be too political, I disagree with DeSantis on a lot of issues, and unless this carbon reduction study, comes with some sort of strings attached type thing where they're required to act on it, I'd just do the study, and move on, and accept the money. But I can also kind of see where he's coming from here. Having this requirement attached to federal money for road expansions or preservation makes no sense to me but whatever.
CRP isn't for road expansions or preservation.
Like I said above, the fact that he turned CRP (a new federal program) down while accepting CMAQ (a quite old federal program), when both programs have similar goals and requirements makes this a purely stupid political play at the cost of not being able to fund ped/bike/transit improvements.
I'm guessing the name of the CRP program was "too woke" or something.
Quote from: vdeane on January 29, 2024, 12:52:16 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 29, 2024, 07:13:41 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 29, 2024, 12:55:28 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 25, 2024, 10:37:37 AM
DeSantis will leave office in 2027 (due to term limits). Perhaps the next Florida Governor will not be so quick to reject federal funding. I hope he/she supports building new toll roads and new toll lanes.
Aside from northeastern states, well, and my home state, isn't Florida already like one of the toll road capitals? And didn't the state just propose a massive toll road expansion that was shut down by environmentalist?
And without trying to be too political, I disagree with DeSantis on a lot of issues, and unless this carbon reduction study, comes with some sort of strings attached type thing where they're required to act on it, I'd just do the study, and move on, and accept the money. But I can also kind of see where he's coming from here. Having this requirement attached to federal money for road expansions or preservation makes no sense to me but whatever.
CRP isn't for road expansions or preservation.
Like I said above, the fact that he turned CRP (a new federal program) down while accepting CMAQ (a quite old federal program), when both programs have similar goals and requirements makes this a purely stupid political play at the cost of not being able to fund ped/bike/transit improvements.
I'm guessing the name of the CRP program was "too woke" or something.
I know...consideration of people traveling without cars or in wheelchairs is just too woke for them down there..despite it being God's waiting room.
Right because Florida doesn't invest in any alternative transit other than cars.
DeSantis is not running for president anymore and doesn't have anywhere else to go politically other than primarying a sitting senator, so maybe he'll play out the string by actually governing instead.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 29, 2024, 05:07:16 PM
Right because Florida doesn't invest in any alternative transit other than cars.
Since they do, all the more reason why they shouldn't turn down CRP funding.
Quote from: Rothman on January 29, 2024, 05:35:27 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 29, 2024, 05:07:16 PM
Right because Florida doesn't invest in any alternative transit other than cars.
Since they do, all the more reason why they shouldn't turn down CRP funding.
Maybe they have more than enough crp?
Quote from: formulanone on January 29, 2024, 07:13:16 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 29, 2024, 05:35:27 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 29, 2024, 05:07:16 PM
Right because Florida doesn't invest in any alternative transit other than cars.
Since they do, all the more reason why they shouldn't turn down CRP funding.
Maybe they have more than enough crp?
They turned it all down. And, Florida has plenty of ADA non-compliance to rectify, which would be CRP eligible.