Engineering and encouraging good behavior on the road

[index]

Warning: I wrote this when I was really, really bored.

Engineering good behavior out of people is always more effective than demanding or asking it of people. Doing the latter and expecting any results is a fool's errand when it comes to things like littering, crime, and driving, and only results in more work having to take care of these things.
If we have a respectable, useful public environment with amenities that everyone uses and loves, along with frequent waste receptacles, there will be no litter.
If you create a respectable society in which everyone is truly at level with each other, and everyone has a sense of community and belonging, crime will be lower.
If a road is engineered and designed to encourage good behavior, like narrow streets in urban environments to make speeding uncomfortable, accidents will be lower.

Unfortunately, when it comes to our roads, here in the United States, this practice isn't observed. Our suburban development style encourages litter and disrespect of the community, and our stroads encourage speeding and dangerous driving. Our useless public transit encourages our bus stops in many of our cities to be littered on and pissed on, because people have no reason to care about them. They'll see no consequences to being a dick and they won't think of others, because who the hell is it really useful to? They won't have that direct thought in their head but that's an important "why" to consider in why this stuff happens.

An example of this can be found right where I live, quoting from a paper I wrote:

It may seem useless or trivial, but the atmosphere and environment can make or break a public space. Here in Boone, litter is a lot less common in Downtown and on campus, but is more rampant on the commercial strip of U.S. 321, AKA Blowing Rock Road, and there's an easy reason for that. Downtown and campus are built to be inviting, walkable environments, with public art and ornate street lights and buildings. The commercial areas of Boone, conversely, are harsh, car-centric environments–get out of your car, shop inside the strip malls, and get out. There's no beauty or aesthetic quality here, and your experience is not found outside but in the stores. As a result, to the average shopper there, who cares if the sidewalks are covered in litter?
The environment of Downtown Boone and the campus also contrasts with another environment I'm familiar with–Charlotte. In Uptown Charlotte, and the city at large, public transit is useless for most people and reaches hardly any of the population. As a consequence, many bus stops are filthy, smell like urine, and are bathed in litter and smashed bottles, even in Uptown. The same filth is true for the parking garages and alleyways in Charlotte. The public amenities just aren't useful, especially to those who don't use cars, and as such, they see zero respect from them, and I'm not even mad about it. If we want clean cities, we should make our cities respectable, rather than demand it from our citizens. Car-centrism and inadequate public transit is not respectable. Engineering good behavior is infinitely more effective than demanding it.

I was reading this article (https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/11/deadly-myth-human-error-causes-most-car-crashes/620808/?utm_source=pocket-newtab) and started to think about how else this issue present on our roads.

One obvious thing that stands out is suburban stroads. 5 lanes, wide with a center turn lane, and no design differences from a 60 MPH highway in a rural area. A lot of these center turn lanes on them are often useless and filled with debris from accidents, like bits of glass and metal. The speed limit really means nothing.

You can say "Well if you don't want accidents, just get people to drive slower" but that's, as I mentioned earlier, a fool's errand. Spending so much public money on speed cameras, police patrols, administrative costs for tickets, is just god damn stupid. Not to mention, people are fallible. Speed limits won't do anything. People may ignore, forget about, or simply not see a speed limit sign, but something like narrow lanes and thicker lines will ALWAYS be there, and will always be noticed.
Being closer to traffic and having less room for error, and just feeling penned in will encourage a slowdown, creating safer conditions. It's a one time investment and will produce infinite results, unlike speed cameras or police patrols, which can be spotty, vandalized, not work, produce false results, or simply avoided, not to mention there's continuous costs with maintaining them.

The way we approach every issue as related to personal responsibility in this country just doesn't solve everything. That being said, are there any other examples anyone else would like to bring up about how we can make our roads safer by encouraging good behavior/designing people's stupidity/stubbornness into the road? Are there any examples in your community of this being done, or examples where this should be done?

[hotdogPi]

I highly discourage intentionally slowing cars down. There are two things that I think need to be done:

1. Minor collectors or basically any through road that doesn't get 10k AADT is under capacity. Encourage more drivers to use these roads if they're a straight shot instead of using the nearest busy arterial or freeway. This will take traffic off the more congested roads.

2. Prohibit left turns in more places. There are various ways to do this (Michigan left, jughandle, median U-turn, having them turn left one intersection earlier or later, etc.); two-phase signals are always faster.

[SkyPesos]

but something like narrow lanes and thicker lines will ALWAYS be there, and will always be noticed.
Being closer to traffic and having less room for error, and just feeling penned in will encourage a slowdown, creating safer conditions. It's a one time investment and will produce infinite results, unlike speed cameras or police patrols, which can be spotty, vandalized, not work, produce false results, or simply avoided, not to mention there's continuous costs with maintaining them.

I would only do this on streets where you want to encourage more pedestrian/bike traffic, but definitely not on arterial roads, which through traffic uses. And yes, I'm using Strong Town's differentiation between streets and roads here.

[kalvado]

There is one area of improvement - although it is more legislative (and good behavior)  than engineering.

Drunk pedestrians are a significant problem few people are willing to discuss.
2 out of 5 killed pedestrians are above 0.08 in 21-64 year olds. It is "just" 1 out of 5 in 16-20 year olds.
If anything, this is something to be aware of for college students... 

[index]

I highly discourage intentionally slowing cars down. There are two things that I think need to be done:

1. Minor collectors or basically any through road that doesn't get 10k AADT is under capacity. Encourage more drivers to use these roads if they're a straight shot instead of using the nearest busy arterial or freeway. This will take traffic off the more congested roads.

2. Prohibit left turns in more places. There are various ways to do this (Michigan left, jughandle, median U-turn, having them turn left one intersection earlier or later, etc.); two-phase signals are always faster.

I agree with both of these but in some places, like Blowing Rock, there's not a lot of options. They keep complaining about people speeding through town on 321, but none of the measures they propose to stop it are really productive. They peck at individual drivers, like more patrols, are basically just slaps on the wrist/yelling, like speed limit signage, etc. And some measures are continuous costs rather than one time investments.

Only calming the traffic will stop them. 321 in Blowing Rock encourages speeding by its design, have a look on gsv and you'll see what I mean. This is what the town proposed to stop speeding:

1. Painting large (i.e. 10 ft high) “35 MPH” lettering on the roadway entering Blowing Rock on Rt. 321, in both directions, and at intervals throughout the bypass.
2. Posting “Speed Radar Enforced” signs at the entrance to town on Rt. 321 as well as along the bypass.
3. Purchasing multiple, additional speed monitoring units that flash red and blue when the traveling speed exceeds the posted limit (35 MPH).
4. Training the town police officers to pull over tractor trailers, with the support of the State Police, if necessary, and making active efforts to pull over and to ticket speed violating tractor trailers.
5. Purchasing decibel meters, and training the Blowing Rock Police to correctly utilize this equipment in order to support adherence to NC Statute 20-128, and to step up enforcement actions in this regard.
6. Installing signage “Vehicles generating excessive noise violate NC statute 20-128 and will be ticketed”
7. Requesting that the DOT authorize “Entering Green Park Historic District” BROWN SIGNS at both entrances to the Historic District, and posting “speed radar enforced” signs proximate to these signs.
8. Communicating with the local judicial authorities (involving the State government, if necessary) regarding the urgency of the situation and requesting that they no longer take the position that up to 10 MPH over the speed limit is not speeding.
9. Hiring additional law enforcement personnel dedicated to patrolling the bypass (recruiting part time, off duty personnel from other localities if necessary).

And none really fix it or guarantee slow driving. I think this highlights the problem I have, our current safety approaches don't really truly work, like highlighted in the article I put in the original post.

[hotdogPi]

I'm looking at US 321 in Blowing Rock, and I see no reason why traffic needs to be slowed down. 50 mph looks perfectly fine.

[kalvado]

I highly discourage intentionally slowing cars down. There are two things that I think need to be done:

1. Minor collectors or basically any through road that doesn't get 10k AADT is under capacity. Encourage more drivers to use these roads if they're a straight shot instead of using the nearest busy arterial or freeway. This will take traffic off the more congested roads.

2. Prohibit left turns in more places. There are various ways to do this (Michigan left, jughandle, median U-turn, having them turn left one intersection earlier or later, etc.); two-phase signals are always faster.

I agree with both of these but in some places, like Blowing Rock, there's not a lot of options. They keep complaining about people speeding through town on 321, but none of the measures they propose to stop it are really productive. They peck at individual drivers, like more patrols, are basically just slaps on the wrist/yelling, like speed limit signage, etc. And some measures are continuous costs rather than one time investments.

Only calming the traffic will stop them. 321 in Blowing Rock encourages speeding by its design, have a look on gsv and you'll see what I mean. This is what the town proposed to stop speeding:

1. Painting large (i.e. 10 ft high) "35 MPH"  lettering on the roadway entering Blowing Rock on Rt. 321, in both directions, and at intervals throughout the bypass.
2. Posting "Speed Radar Enforced"  signs at the entrance to town on Rt. 321 as well as along the bypass.
3. Purchasing multiple, additional speed monitoring units that flash red and blue when the traveling speed exceeds the posted limit (35 MPH).
4. Training the town police officers to pull over tractor trailers, with the support of the State Police, if necessary, and making active efforts to pull over and to ticket speed violating tractor trailers.
5. Purchasing decibel meters, and training the Blowing Rock Police to correctly utilize this equipment in order to support adherence to NC Statute 20-128, and to step up enforcement actions in this regard.
6. Installing signage "Vehicles generating excessive noise violate NC statute 20-128 and will be ticketed"
7. Requesting that the DOT authorize "Entering Green Park Historic District"  BROWN SIGNS at both entrances to the Historic District, and posting "speed radar enforced"  signs proximate to these signs.
8. Communicating with the local judicial authorities (involving the State government, if necessary) regarding the urgency of the situation and requesting that they no longer take the position that up to 10 MPH over the speed limit is not speeding.
9. Hiring additional law enforcement personnel dedicated to patrolling the bypass (recruiting part time, off duty personnel from other localities if necessary).

And none really fix it or guarantee slow driving. I think this highlights the problem I have, our current safety approaches don't really truly work, like highlighted in the article I put in the original post.

And what is exactly the problem to be solved by slowing down through traffic? Is there a high accident rate within the village?
Would it be cheaper in the long run to discourage people people from visiting and living there? Reducing speed limit on US321 throughout can certainly achieve that.

[Max Rockatansky]

Am I the only one who gets bad vibes from terms like "engineering behavior?"

[Bruce]

The entire road system is engineered for ideal behavior.

We should absolutely be slowing down cars on everything but intercity highways, as you really aren't going to save that much time driving through a city or suburb at 50 mph versus 35 mph. You'll likely lose all those time savings at the next light anyway, but in the process put yourself and those around you at higher risk of a collision.

High speed absolutely does kill and maim more than we would like to admit.

[hotdogPi]

The entire road system is engineered for ideal behavior.

We should absolutely be slowing down cars on everything but intercity highways, as you really aren't going to save that much time driving through a city or suburb at 50 mph versus 35 mph. You'll likely lose all those time savings at the next light anyway, but in the process put yourself and those around you at higher risk of a collision.

High speed absolutely does kill and maim more than we would like to admit.

1. This is an intercity highway. (We're talking about US 321 here, not US 221.)
2. You might be stopped at the next light, but you might also make a green light that would have been red if you were going 35 mph.

[7/8]

You can say "Well if you don't want accidents, just get people to drive slower" but that's, as I mentioned earlier, a fool's errand. Spending so much public money on speed cameras, police patrols, administrative costs for tickets, is just god damn stupid. Not to mention, people are fallible. Speed limits won't do anything. People may ignore, forget about, or simply not see a speed limit sign, but something like narrow lanes and thicker lines will ALWAYS be there, and will always be noticed.
Being closer to traffic and having less room for error, and just feeling penned in will encourage a slowdown, creating safer conditions. It's a one time investment and will produce infinite results, unlike speed cameras or police patrols, which can be spotty, vandalized, not work, produce false results, or simply avoided, not to mention there's continuous costs with maintaining them.

Great post index! Yes, the speed limit issue is very frustrating. We have lots of real world data to show that lowering speed limits has minimal effect on lowering driver's speeds, and that changing the street design (ex: narrower lanes) has a much stronger effect. I was planning on making a thread about "Not Just Bikes" Youtube channel, but anyway, he has lots of great videos on transportation infrastructure and urban design. He released a video on the speed limit issue in September that criticizes the North American approach:

One comparison he mentions that really hits home is the difference between entering a town on a rural road in the Netherlands vs. Canada/US. In North America, the road looks exactly the same, but they just add signs telling you to slow down (including those guilt-tripping "your speed" flashing signs). But in the Netherlands, they narrow the road to a 1-lane chokepoint with a speed hump to force drivers to slow down at the town entrance, and it acts as a visual reminder that you're coming up to an area with pedestrians.

[7/8]

I'm looking at US 321 in Blowing Rock, and I see no reason why traffic needs to be slowed down. 50 mph looks perfectly fine.

US 321 cuts through the middle of town. Anyone who wants to walk or cycle from the east side of town to the west side (incl. downtown) has to cross the highway. An accident with a pedestrian at 50 mph is a death sentence, and I could image lots of parents not letting their kids cross that road due to it being dangerous. Lowering the speed limit over a few miles would only add maybe a couple minutes to the drive.

[kalvado]

I'm looking at US 321 in Blowing Rock, and I see no reason why traffic needs to be slowed down. 50 mph looks perfectly fine.

US 321 cuts through the middle of town. Anyone who wants to walk or cycle from the east side of town to the west side (incl. downtown) has to cross the highway. An accident with a pedestrian at 50 mph is a death sentence, and I could image lots of parents not letting their kids cross that road due to it being dangerous. Lowering the speed limit over a few miles would only add maybe a couple minutes to the drive.

From historic description found on wiki, one may argue that this is the other way around - a town was built around road and grew as a tourist destination enabled by the highway.

[index]

I'm looking at US 321 in Blowing Rock, and I see no reason why traffic needs to be slowed down. 50 mph looks perfectly fine.

I'm not saying it needs to (the limit is 35), I'm saying they want people to go slow there, and if they want to that's what they need to do.

And as 7/8 said it's also good for pedestrians to keep people slow there. It would also improve the tourist experience given how touristy Blowing Rock is. Making the road narrower and the lanes would also help to slow people down. Encouragement and guidance to the right thing to do, following the limit there, is always best.

[7/8]

I'm looking at US 321 in Blowing Rock, and I see no reason why traffic needs to be slowed down. 50 mph looks perfectly fine.

US 321 cuts through the middle of town. Anyone who wants to walk or cycle from the east side of town to the west side (incl. downtown) has to cross the highway. An accident with a pedestrian at 50 mph is a death sentence, and I could image lots of parents not letting their kids cross that road due to it being dangerous. Lowering the speed limit over a few miles would only add maybe a couple minutes to the drive.

From historic description found on wiki, one may argue that this is the other way around - a town was built around road and grew as a tourist destination enabled by the highway.

I'm sure you're right about the town growing eastward toward and past the highway. I also don't disagree that having a highway to the town has been helpful for its growth.

However, I still don't think it's helpful to have a 50 mph highway through the town. I don't believe lowering the speed limit for a few miles through town is going to cause a max exodus of visitors to the town, or even noticeable delays for through travellers.

[kalvado]

I'm looking at US 321 in Blowing Rock, and I see no reason why traffic needs to be slowed down. 50 mph looks perfectly fine.

US 321 cuts through the middle of town. Anyone who wants to walk or cycle from the east side of town to the west side (incl. downtown) has to cross the highway. An accident with a pedestrian at 50 mph is a death sentence, and I could image lots of parents not letting their kids cross that road due to it being dangerous. Lowering the speed limit over a few miles would only add maybe a couple minutes to the drive.

From historic description found on wiki, one may argue that this is the other way around - a town was built around road and grew as a tourist destination enabled by the highway.

I'm sure you're right about the town growing eastward toward and past the highway. I also don't disagree that having a highway to the town has been helpful for its growth.

However, I still don't think it's helpful to have a 50 mph highway through the town. I don't believe lowering the speed limit for a few miles through town is going to cause a max exodus of visitors to the town, or even noticeable delays for through travellers.

It really depends on traffic. Such slow down can easily create a backup at the time of high demand.
And setting up clots on a highway can easily cut it's attractiveness as a tourist throughfare once there is enough of such clots, especially with punitive measures OP is advocating.

[sprjus4]

Given the straight, well designed of nature of US-321 through there, having a proper median divider, sidewalks and controlled intersections, it easily seems like it should be at least 45 mph. That's not an unreasonable ask.

It seems like it's a speed trap asking to be set up - if it already isn't.

[index]

Given the straight, well designed of nature of US-321 through there, having a proper median divider, sidewalks and controlled intersections, it easily seems like it should be at least 45 mph. That’s not an unreasonable ask.

It seems like it’s a speed trap asking to be set up - if it already isn’t.

Oh it pretty much is. Every time I pass through during the evening there's always like, two cars pulled over in the same spot. When there aren't cops the traffic regulates its own speed to 45, but I never take any chances.

I know that the low speed limit isn't just for speed trapping though, given the townspeople's constant complaints of noise pollution due to faster cars and jake braking traffic going through town.

[index]

I'm looking at US 321 in Blowing Rock, and I see no reason why traffic needs to be slowed down. 50 mph looks perfectly fine.

US 321 cuts through the middle of town. Anyone who wants to walk or cycle from the east side of town to the west side (incl. downtown) has to cross the highway. An accident with a pedestrian at 50 mph is a death sentence, and I could image lots of parents not letting their kids cross that road due to it being dangerous. Lowering the speed limit over a few miles would only add maybe a couple minutes to the drive.

From historic description found on wiki, one may argue that this is the other way around - a town was built around road and grew as a tourist destination enabled by the highway.

I'm sure you're right about the town growing eastward toward and past the highway. I also don't disagree that having a highway to the town has been helpful for its growth.

However, I still don't think it's helpful to have a 50 mph highway through the town. I don't believe lowering the speed limit for a few miles through town is going to cause a max exodus of visitors to the town, or even noticeable delays for through travellers.

It really depends on traffic. Such slow down can easily create a backup at the time of high demand.
And setting up clots on a highway can easily cut it's attractiveness as a tourist throughfare once there is enough of such clots, especially with punitive measures OP is advocating.

I'm not trying to be snarky here but I'm curious on how narrower lanes/thicker lines to calm traffic would be harmful for tourism, or unattractive (a narrower road would likely be more attractive, because there's more space for greenery and pedestrians). I ask in good faith, tone isn't easily conveyable on the internet.

The tourist experience in Blowing Rock isn't derived from driving. Somewhere like the Parkway sure, but Blowing Rock wants people to "stop and smell the roses", quoting one of their citizens, with their complaint about speeding traffic.

There also isn't any traffic in Blowing Rock, AADT is only 9,000-10,000 per day on 321 I believe. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

[7/8]

There also isn't any traffic in Blowing Rock, AADT is only 9,000-10,000 per day on 321 I believe. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

I checked the NCDOT AADT interactive map (a pretty cool tool!) and it says the 2019 AADT's are 11 000 at the south end of town and 16 000 just north of US 221/321 intersection.

In comparison, Lackner Blvd in Kitchener (a two-lane arterial with a 60 km/h limit) has 2015 AADT's between 9000 and 15 000 (source PDF), which is in the same ballpark. I drive this road a lot, including rush hour, and the traffic is never that bad. And I'm sure the traffic counts are higher now since more houses are being built on the east side of the City.

[kalvado]

I'm looking at US 321 in Blowing Rock, and I see no reason why traffic needs to be slowed down. 50 mph looks perfectly fine.

US 321 cuts through the middle of town. Anyone who wants to walk or cycle from the east side of town to the west side (incl. downtown) has to cross the highway. An accident with a pedestrian at 50 mph is a death sentence, and I could image lots of parents not letting their kids cross that road due to it being dangerous. Lowering the speed limit over a few miles would only add maybe a couple minutes to the drive.

From historic description found on wiki, one may argue that this is the other way around - a town was built around road and grew as a tourist destination enabled by the highway.

I'm sure you're right about the town growing eastward toward and past the highway. I also don't disagree that having a highway to the town has been helpful for its growth.

However, I still don't think it's helpful to have a 50 mph highway through the town. I don't believe lowering the speed limit for a few miles through town is going to cause a max exodus of visitors to the town, or even noticeable delays for through travellers.

It really depends on traffic. Such slow down can easily create a backup at the time of high demand.
And setting up clots on a highway can easily cut it's attractiveness as a tourist throughfare once there is enough of such clots, especially with punitive measures OP is advocating.

I'm not trying to be snarky here but I'm curious on how narrower lanes/thicker lines to calm traffic would be harmful for tourism, or unattractive (a narrower road would likely be more attractive, because there's more space for greenery and pedestrians). I ask in good faith, tone isn't easily conveyable on the internet.

The tourist experience in Blowing Rock isn't derived from driving. Somewhere like the Parkway sure, but Blowing Rock wants people to "stop and smell the roses", quoting one of their citizens, with their complaint about speeding traffic.

There also isn't any traffic in Blowing Rock, AADT is only 9,000-10,000 per day on 321 I believe. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

Big question is how things would work out. Is there any public transportation to the town? Is driving the only (main) way of getting in? Hard to say without being local.
If there is seasonal (weekend) significant through traffic, once induced backup starts affecting it for real - tourist experience may go into "not worth it" territory. If there are a few towns in a row along the highway, first one may get an advantage.

[skluth]

I'm one of the more urban-friendly posters here and I think 35 mph is ridiculous along that stretch. 50 mph is a bit too much for my tastes, but I've seen similar areas out west posted at 45 mph. You'll discover more people will stick close to the speed limit if it's, as it states in the old Montana speed limit guide, "reasonable and proper." It will also encourage more drivers to stick to the slower speed limit of 25 mph on US 321/421 as they've seen reasonable limits elsewhere. When drivers, and people in general, are accustomed to keeping to the speed limit elsewhere they're more likely to respect it when they really should slow down.

I really hate middle left-turn lanes; they tend to increase speed on roads.  Even worse, there is no gap between the highway and the sidewalk. US 321 should be converted to a proper boulevard using a grassy center divider with left turns only at corners and important entry points. There is a psychology to how people drive when they see five lanes across vs a boulevard with left turns at key points, especially when cities beautify them with trees (Please, no ugly concrete barriers filled with seasonal flowers. They don't provide the visual break that even smaller trees do.). Boone is already doing this on the US 421 for the few blocks it's not cosigned with another X21, though I would recommend a few more trees along the sides of the road. (Seriously, the businesses have names like Juniper and Kingswood so it's not like trees would look out of place.) You might be able to justify a 40 mph speed limit through the area with that, but honestly 35 mph is unrealistic if most drivers are ignoring it. (The best highway engineering won't slow that unless ridiculous measures line speed bumps are taken.)  Lanes could also be reasonably narrowed if through trucks were prohibited though 35 would still be ridiculous with all that. (See next paragraph)

I'm curious about the use of NC 105 bypass. There are signs directing trucks to bypass Boone using the bypass, but I only saw one truck on the Google imagery. Not that I expect to see many trucks on Appalachian highways compared to interstates. It may upset local businesses but rerouting all US 321 traffic onto the 105 bypass may also help some, especially if it's upgraded to completely four lanes and US 421 traffic is also rerouted. If you look at European maps, you'll see many smaller cities have all the major highways bypassing the city center. (Note: Just for fun, every word is another example) There is nothing wrong with directing drivers to bypass a center city as traffic will always get much worse if you don't. You don't need a freeway to bypass. But there should be four lanes the entire length as the bypass is handling both local and through traffic. It's not US 8 bypassing Rhinelander.

I wasn't impressed with your city cleanliness comparison of Boone to Charlotte. I've never been to either, but there are a lot of extenuating reasons far beyond the number of available trash containers. You're comparing a college town to a major city; Madison is a much cleaner city than Milwaukee and Ann Arbor vs Detroit is even more extreme. I suggest you visit a city like Toronto which is cleaner than any major American city I've visited. And most smaller ones.

[Dirt Roads]

I'm curious about the use of NC 105 bypass. There are signs directing trucks to bypass Boone using the bypass, but I only saw one truck on the Google imagery. Not that I expect to see many trucks on Appalachian highways compared to interstates.

Fun fact:  For those not paying attention, "NC-105 Bypass" is not a bypass of NC-105 but rather an extension of NC-105 the bypassed the routing of Truck US-421 along Hardin Street (US-321/US-221).

The "NC-105 Bypass" has been quite helpful for folks from the Triangle/Triad to access the vacation paradise areas of Blowing Rock, Grandfather Mountain and Banner Elk.  But trucks haven't found that to be so useful.  First off, NC-105 was Truck US-321/US-421 for many years before the NC-105 extension and westward truck traffic still tended to go downtown anyway.  I think the main issue is that although NC-105 has more lanes, it tends to be equally congested and has a much longer westbound upgrade (in addition to being much longer).  Trucks coming from the south on US-321 do tend to use NC-105 as a truck route, since it doesn't add so much more distance.  Quite frankly, Truck US-421 doesn't provide any speed benefits that would encourage truckers to avoid downtown.

Now to the "NC-105 Bypass" part.  It's a narrow ride for truckers, as well as being a roller coaster.  Having driven this in deep snows several times, it's also a bunch of fun trying to stop after the long westward downgrade with no "landing zone" at the bottom for the intersection with Blowing Rock Road (US-321/US-221).  I also suspect that the presence of college kids on King Street (US-421/US-321) through Downtown Boone is an "attractive nuisance" that encourages truckers to go that way.

[thspfc]

I'm curious about the use of NC 105 bypass. There are signs directing trucks to bypass Boone using the bypass, but I only saw one truck on the Google imagery. Not that I expect to see many trucks on Appalachian highways compared to interstates.

Fun fact:  For those not paying attention, "NC-105 Bypass" is not a bypass of NC-105 but rather an extension of NC-105 the bypassed the routing of Truck US-421 along Hardin Street (US-321/US-221).

The "NC-105 Bypass" has been quite helpful for folks from the Triangle/Triad to access the vacation paradise areas of Blowing Rock, Grandfather Mountain and Banner Elk.  But trucks haven't found that to be so useful.  First off, NC-105 was Truck US-321/US-421 for many years before the NC-105 extension and westward truck traffic still tended to go downtown anyway.  I think the main issue is that although NC-105 has more lanes, it tends to be equally congested and has a much longer westbound upgrade (in addition to being much longer).  Trucks coming from the south on US-321 do tend to use NC-105 as a truck route, since it doesn't add so much more distance.  Quite frankly, Truck US-421 doesn't provide any speed benefits that would encourage truckers to avoid downtown.

Now to the "NC-105 Bypass" part.  It's a narrow ride for truckers, as well as being a roller coaster.  Having driven this in deep snows several times, it's also a bunch of fun trying to stop after the long westward downgrade with no "landing zone" at the bottom for the intersection with Blowing Rock Road (US-321/US-221).  I also suspect that the presence of college kids on King Street (US-421/US-321) through Downtown Boone is an "attractive nuisance" that encourages truckers to go that way.

So in short, NCDOT wants truckers to use NC-105 between Linville and Boone, but they choose to take US-221 instead?

[skluth]

I'm curious about the use of NC 105 bypass. There are signs directing trucks to bypass Boone using the bypass, but I only saw one truck on the Google imagery. Not that I expect to see many trucks on Appalachian highways compared to interstates.

Fun fact:  For those not paying attention, "NC-105 Bypass" is not a bypass of NC-105 but rather an extension of NC-105 the bypassed the routing of Truck US-421 along Hardin Street (US-321/US-221).

The "NC-105 Bypass" has been quite helpful for folks from the Triangle/Triad to access the vacation paradise areas of Blowing Rock, Grandfather Mountain and Banner Elk.  But trucks haven't found that to be so useful.  First off, NC-105 was Truck US-321/US-421 for many years before the NC-105 extension and westward truck traffic still tended to go downtown anyway.  I think the main issue is that although NC-105 has more lanes, it tends to be equally congested and has a much longer westbound upgrade (in addition to being much longer).  Trucks coming from the south on US-321 do tend to use NC-105 as a truck route, since it doesn't add so much more distance.  Quite frankly, Truck US-421 doesn't provide any speed benefits that would encourage truckers to avoid downtown.

Now to the "NC-105 Bypass" part.  It's a narrow ride for truckers, as well as being a roller coaster.  Having driven this in deep snows several times, it's also a bunch of fun trying to stop after the long westward downgrade with no "landing zone" at the bottom for the intersection with Blowing Rock Road (US-321/US-221).  I also suspect that the presence of college kids on King Street (US-421/US-321) through Downtown Boone is an "attractive nuisance" that encourages truckers to go that way.

Thanks for the info. That's a great help. All the more reason to implement changes to encourage drivers to use the bypass. I've thought about it overnight and these would be my recommendations.

• Make the entire bypass four lanes. Boone is not going to encourage trucks and other drivers out of the downtown unless the other option is better. This is #1 and none of the other changes will make much difference if drivers don't feel like this is the best main route. I realize this is expensive, but it's a lot cheaper than a freeway bypass like Danville or Martinsville. Dirt Roads, you make an excellent point about the roller coaster quality of the bypass; mitigating this somehow (I can't say more without experiencing it myself) should be a priority, if possible. I was raised in Wisconsin and my career was mostly in St Louis so I know how tough hills can be in snow and ice.
• Add a couple pedestrian light-activated crossings on King between the lights like this. Cherry Drive and the Turchin Center may be good locations for pedestrian crossings but the locations should be chosen where students are already crossing King St, especially if there are known locations of pedestrian/vehicle accidents.
• Rebuild US 321 as a boulevard like US 421 to replace the five lane stroad. Move the sidewalks on US 321 away from the street to encourage pedestrian traffic at this time.
• There is a pedestrian walkway at the west end of Pine going down to US 321. If this is a popular walkway, there may be a need for a pedestrian light-activated crossing across US 321 here. I just noticed there is one at Dogwood Hall, so Boone should already know the cost.
• Rebuild the intersections at each end of King St (NC 105 Bypass and US 221 N) so through traffic automatically uses the bypass with left turns required to enter King St from the west and leave it on the east end. Westbound traffic should not have straight access to/from King but instead each right turn should have a slight curve. The entire bypass also needs to have no left turns with drivers needing to turn left off the bypass to access westbound NC 105. Bypasses need to feel like bypasses, not just a collection of roads to avoid downtown.
• Make sure crosswalks are painted at all intersections on King St and US 321, not just at stoplights and activated crosswalks. This helps drivers to understand that these are places pedestrians will cross. Don't forget to maintain the paint so it shows better in rain and fog.

Some of this could be done cheaply and quickly. The pedestrian crossings cost a few thousand each to buy and install. The highway modifications are costly; they will also likely need the approval of NCDOT and possibly other authorities. It would probably be best to first build the four lane bypass and pedestrian crossings then implement the other changes incrementally.

A few things not to do.

• Don't replace stop lights on King with four-way stops. I used to live in St Louis and that was their solution. It encourages drivers to roll through stop signs rather than stop on busy streets and that rolling behavior spreads through the rest of the city.
• Don't keep the speed on US 321 at the unrealistic 35 mph. It just encourages bad behavior elsewhere.
• Speed bumps on King. Just don't. There's always an idiot who thinks these are great. Chances are they don't own a vehicle.