If You Could Teach Driver Ed, What Would You Want to Cover?

[kphoger]

Speaking as a Wichita resident, I would say the two most appropriate suggestions (besides the ones you're already covering such as keeping right except to pass) are these:

1. The proper way to signal turns at a roundabout.  I don't think I've seen a single driver use a turn signal at all at a roundabout in Wichita.  We have a few in town to practice on.

I'm not even sure what is the right way to use a signal in a roundabout.  Anyway, with one hand on the stick and one on the steering wheel, I don't have a third hand for the turn signal stalk.

All the more reason for it to be taught in driver's ed.
Turning right?  Right turn signal.
Going straight?  No turn signal on entry, right turn signal on exit.
Turning left?  Left turn signal on entry, switch it off partway through, right turn signal on exit.

So your signal goes on before you enter the roundabout, no need for an extra hand.  To signal your exit, you only need to do so as you move the wheel from "turning left" position to "turning right" position, which puts the stalk right by your left hand as it moves past.  Sorry, no sympathy here.  Millions of drivers the world over have found a way to shift, steer, and signal–also called "driving".

[corco]

For sure- at the very, very least throw your right signal on before you leave the roundabout so cars entering know you're about to leave

[agentsteel53]

For sure- at the very, very least throw your right signal on before you leave the roundabout so cars entering know you're about to leave

this has to be institutional behavior before I learn to trust it.  people here have their right turn signals on for all kinds of conflicting or spurious reasons, so "he's got his right turn signal on" is insufficient impetus for me to turn in front of a vehicle.  he could indeed be turning before intersecting my path.  or he could be turning after.  or he just likes having his turn signal on because he's got the intelligence of a paper towel.

[kphoger]

All the more reason for it to be taught in driver's ed.

[1995hoo]

I agree 100% with kphoger, as reflected in my comment on the first page of this thread. Roundabouts work best when you don't have to guess at what other drivers will do–if everyone signals properly, then it's clear whether you need to yield or whether you can go ahead. Problem is, because some people don't signal, you never know if you're encountering someone who isn't signalling because he's going straight (taking the second exit) or because he's either ignorant or just an arsehole.

Virginia's driver's manual doesn't teach the use of the left indicator when you're going more than halfway around and it's a serious oversight. I have no idea whether roundabouts are even mentioned in driver's ed classes beyond the text in the manual.

[J N Winkler]

I don't think I've seen a single driver use a turn signal at all at a roundabout in Wichita.

I know I have seen drivers signal right on exit and I think I have seen several signal on entry when going right.  I have never seen anyone signal left on entry--I know to do that only as a result of living in Britain.

Wichita does have multiple roundabouts, but I am not aware of any outside Riverside, nor do I think we have any multi-lane roundabouts.  (The two in Riverside--one at Stackman and Nims, and the other at the bottom end of West River Boulevard--are both single-lane.)  It will get interesting when Wichita drivers try to figure out spiral markings.

Edit:  I forgot about the Delano roundabout (Douglas and Sycamore)--which is also one-lane.  A dumbbell roundabout (teardrop type) was considered for the Kellogg/Webb/Turnpike interchange, but rejected because it had poor upgradability and was at a critical location which was considered unsuitable for experimentation.  I have been told that roundabouts might be used if I-235/Zoo Boulevard is ever upgraded (again), but personally I doubt this because traffic volumes on Zoo alone are in excess of the 20,000 VPD at which roundabouts fail.

[kphoger]

[off topic]

I agree that the Zoo Blvd interchange would be a roundabout fail.  It really deserves to be something more free-flowing.

[/off topic]

[jeffandnicole]

1. The proper way to signal turns at a roundabout.

Turning left?  Left turn signal on entry, switch it off partway through, right turn signal on exit.

That's proper?  Left turn signal then curving to the right?

Sometimes, turn signals shouldn't be used. Honestly.  Almost all turning is supposed to be done using two hands (remember THAT from drivers ed??).  Since you are in a round about, you are constantly turning.  A driver simply doesn't have a hand available to keep playing with the turn signal.  I drive with someone who over-utilizes his turn signal (even going around someone parked on the curb of the roadway) and I don't think I've ever seen him use a turn signal in a traffic circle.

[jeffandnicole]

As for what I would teach:

Keep Right Except to Pass.

Merging.

Stopping (behind the stop line.  Not on the cross walk)

Using a two-way left turn lane.

Keeping Right Except to Pass.

Paying attention to road signs.

Basic understanding of the route system.

Turning. (Don't cut the wheel to the left to turn right.)

What "Exit Only" mean.

Other things that are relative to the local/regional area.

I wouldn't go as far as to try to teach someone what driving situations one may find in other areas of the country.  The students are new drivers and are very unlikely to be making cross-country trips. If the students are in Wisconsin and area residents are frequently in Michigan, then teaching about Michigan lefts may be relative.  But telling them about road features in Texas is useless info that would only confuse them.  It's hard enough for them to figure out the pressure needed for the gas and brake pedals; much less informing them of the history of Botts Dots or something they will rarely encounter and could care less about anyway.

[J N Winkler]

I wouldn't go as far as to try to teach someone what driving situations one may find in other areas of the country.  The students are new drivers and are very unlikely to be making cross-country trips. If the students are in Wisconsin and area residents are frequently in Michigan, then teaching about Michigan lefts may be relative.  But telling them about road features in Texas is useless info that would only confuse them.  It's hard enough for them to figure out the pressure needed for the gas and brake pedals; much less informing them of the history of Botts Dots or something they will rarely encounter and could care less about anyway.

There are two reasons I can't agree with this.  First, many learners do extended driving out of state--for example, I drove several hundred miles (supervised) in Nebraska on a Kansas instructional permit.  (I told my driver education instructor about it, and he advised me that Nebraska might not recognize a Kansas permit as valid, but did not say "Don't do it.")  Second, a lowest-common-denominator curriculum in driver education classes only encourages intelligent and motivated students to disengage.

What I would hesitate to do is to make students accountable for a large amount of information on assignments, tests, and other formal assessments, since for relatively motivated students the stress of making themselves encyclopedically letter-perfect (at a time when they are also struggling with demanding core classes) only gets in the way of learning.

[agentsteel53]

Stopping (behind the stop line.  Not on the cross walk)

sometimes it is impossible to take off safely from behind the stop line - parked cars may occlude one's vision.

in that case, I stop at the stop line, look for pedestrians, then roll forward and stop again where I have the ability to see.  yeah, I'm illegally blocking the crosswalk - I'm also avoiding a collision.  it's terrible road design, but for some reason it is prevalent.

[mgk920]

I wouldn't go as far as to try to teach someone what driving situations one may find in other areas of the country.  The students are new drivers and are very unlikely to be making cross-country trips. If the students are in Wisconsin and area residents are frequently in Michigan, then teaching about Michigan lefts may be relative.  But telling them about road features in Texas is useless info that would only confuse them.  It's hard enough for them to figure out the pressure needed for the gas and brake pedals; much less informing them of the history of Botts Dots or something they will rarely encounter and could care less about anyway.

There are two reasons I can't agree with this.  First, many learners do extended driving out of state--for example, I drove several hundred miles (supervised) in Nebraska on a Kansas instructional permit.  (I told my driver education instructor about it, and he advised me that Nebraska might not recognize a Kansas permit as valid, but did not say "Don't do it.")  Second, a lowest-common-denominator curriculum in driver education classes only encourages intelligent and motivated students to disengage.

What I would hesitate to do is to make students accountable for a large amount of information on assignments, tests, and other formal assessments, since for relatively motivated students the stress of making themselves encyclopedically letter-perfect (at a time when they are also struggling with demanding core classes) only gets in the way of learning.

And besides, from what I'm aware of, the nearest true 'Michigan left™' in Michigan from Wisconsin is just west of Marquette, MI, well outside of Wisconsin.  OTOH, there is a similar type intersection (RIRO turns to/from the side road with paired 'U' turns in nearby crossovers) on WI 26 between Watertown and Johnson Creek.  It is well signed.

Mike

[jeffandnicole]

I wouldn't go as far as to try to teach someone what driving situations one may find in other areas of the country.  The students are new drivers and are very unlikely to be making cross-country trips. If the students are in Wisconsin and area residents are frequently in Michigan, then teaching about Michigan lefts may be relative.  But telling them about road features in Texas is useless info that would only confuse them.  It's hard enough for them to figure out the pressure needed for the gas and brake pedals; much less informing them of the history of Botts Dots or something they will rarely encounter and could care less about anyway.

There are two reasons I can't agree with this.  First, many learners do extended driving out of state--for example, I drove several hundred miles (supervised) in Nebraska on a Kansas instructional permit.  (I told my driver education instructor about it, and he advised me that Nebraska might not recognize a Kansas permit as valid, but did not say "Don't do it.")  Second, a lowest-common-denominator curriculum in driver education classes only encourages intelligent and motivated students to disengage.

What I would hesitate to do is to make students accountable for a large amount of information on assignments, tests, and other formal assessments, since for relatively motivated students the stress of making themselves encyclopedically letter-perfect (at a time when they are also struggling with demanding core classes) only gets in the way of learning.

It's hardly normal to drive cross country on a road trip with a learners permit.

There are sooo many variables one might run into that it's impossible teach them all.  As noted, some states permit u-turns; some don't.  In some states it's law to keep to the right or signal between lanes, others it's not.  Some states prohibit turning right on a red arrow; some don't.  And then when you get into different things like the Jersey Jughandle, Michigan left, etc, even expert drivers aren't aware of those things until they encounter them.  Nor could anyone even on these boards keep up on all the law changes in every state.  Most people on here have years of driving experience, and have learned a great deal on these boards.  It would be impossible to provide that same knowledge to a teenager in just a few months (or less).  Thus - go for the general rules of the road; what various signs mean, etc, and the rest they'll just have to figure out on their own, and hope they get it right.

Stopping (behind the stop line.  Not on the cross walk)

sometimes it is impossible to take off safely from behind the stop line - parked cars may occlude one's vision.

in that case, I stop at the stop line, look for pedestrians, then roll forward and stop again where I have the ability to see.  yeah, I'm illegally blocking the crosswalk - I'm also avoiding a collision.  it's terrible road design, but for some reason it is prevalent.

Actually, that's proper driving.  You stopped first and looked for pedestrians.  Too many people roll directly into the crosswalk without stopping first.

[1995hoo]

The use of the signal on a roundabout is essential precisely because when you do it properly, it immediately tells the other driver whether he needs to yield to you. Your right-turn signal means "I'm taking this exit." So if I'm waiting to enter and you're on the roundabout signalling right, it means I can go because you're exiting before you reach where I'm waiting. Your left-turn signal means "I'm staying on the roundabout," so I have to wait. Not using a signal means "I'm going straight," but you're still supposed to signal right when you're preparing to exit because otherwise the driver waiting to enter should assume you're staying on the roundabout.

This diagram from the Highway Code is for a country where you drive on the left, but it shows the principle quite nicely. Notice how the green car signals right at entry and then signals left before he exits. That left-turn signal tells the driver of the red car that he can go ahead without stopping. One major point of a roundabout is that you only stop when you have to do so–basically, it's presumed that you keep moving unless you are required to yield to someone. Surely all of us can agree that it's nicer to keep moving instead of being forced to come to a complete stop every time just in case someone might be coming on the other road, right? But the "keep moving" principle only works well when drivers communicate properly.




This animation translates it for a country where you drive on the right. Notice how the red car's use of the signal tells the purple car's driver that he has to yield to the red car.




I don't buy the argument about "using two hands while turning" being a reason not to signal. I have no difficulty at all with activating or deactivating a signal at the same time I'm turning the wheel, even while keeping both hands on the wheel, and that's true regardless of which side of the car the steering wheel is on. It's no more difficult than hitting your signal to change lanes.



Regarding stuff in the rest of the country, I don't think I'd try to focus on every last unusual situation. For example, your average driver's ed student in most of the country doesn't need to know that in New York it's illegal for commercial traffic to use "parkways"–but if the driver's ed course is a CDL course, I might feel otherwise. But one thing I do think ought to be mentioned is that traffic laws do vary throughout the country and it's not reasonable just to assume that because you learned something in one place, it applies everywhere. Turning left on red might be one example–it's illegal in a few states and the District of Columbia. This issue came up on another forum I frequent a few years ago when a guy from California said that his sixteen-year-old daughter said it's OK to drive in the left lane and, as "proof," showed him the current California DMV driver's manual that says the left lane is the "fast cruising lane." He wanted to know what we all thought and our unanimous reaction was to reply along the lines of, "Tell her that (a) she has to know that's not the rule everywhere and that in some places the left lane is for passing only, and (b) regardless of what the DMV says, tell her 'fast' is ambiguous and that it's just polite to other drivers to stay to the right except when you're passing someone." I mean, shit, don't we all know people who think 65 mph is "fast" even when that's less than the posted speed limit?

Stuff like curbing your wheels is very important in a place like San Francisco. Here in Virginia it was mentioned in the DMV manual but was never mentioned either in the classroom or during behind-the-wheel and I didn't encounter it either time I took the knowledge test (I had to take it when I was 30 years old due to two moving violations in five years). I'm the only person I know who does curb my wheels. I do it in part because I don't 100% trust the handbrake in my RX-7. But I think teaching that sort of thing is far more useful and more important than teaching things like the "Michigan left" or the "hook turn" that's common in Melbourne, Australia. Last Saturday we were going down a steep hill in Harpers Ferry and I noted that a bunch of parked cars all had their wheels turned precisely the wrong way such that they all would have rolled into the street!

[agentsteel53]

I don't think a Michigan left is so bizarre, and potentially hazardous, that it needs to be explicitly taught anywhere.  not even in Michigan.

if one comes up to one, they can intuit how to get to their point B correctly, even when there is only regulatory signage.  "hmm, I can't turn left.  I'll just go straight, make a U-turn, and turn right."

it is important that drivers have intuition like this - as opposed to needing exact signage to be able to figure out how to get to Point B.  they're gonna come upon bizarre sets of one-ways and forbidden turns at some point in their life (i.e. the first time they try to drive in San Francisco) so it's good that they develop the skills as opposed to relying on signage that may not be present.

[1995hoo]

I don't think a Michigan left is so bizarre, and potentially hazardous, that it needs to be explicitly taught anywhere.  not even in Michigan.

if one comes up to one, they can intuit how to get to their point B correctly, even when there is only regulatory signage.  "hmm, I can't turn left.  I'll just go straight, make a U-turn, and turn right."

it is important that drivers have intuition like this - as opposed to needing exact signage to be able to figure out how to get to Point B.  they're gonna come upon bizarre sets of one-ways and forbidden turns at some point in their life (i.e. the first time they try to drive in San Francisco) so it's good that they develop the skills as opposed to relying on signage that may not be present.

I think this point also underscores something cpzilliacus said on Page 2 of this thread: driver's ed should teach how to navigate both with and without a sat-nav, and I would emphasize how to navigate without one. So many people seem dependent on the electronic aid and they need to remember that new roads and construction projects often mean that what the sat-nav tells you is not what you'll encounter out on the road.

The old left-side exit from I-495 to I-66 near me has been closed since September 2011 (it re-opened in November 2012 to serve only the HO/T lanes). Nevertheless, I still see people slowing abruptly in the left lane, then swerving wildly across four lanes of traffic to reach the new right-side exit. It's obvious they're relying solely on their sat-navs and paying absolutely no attention to the signs. When the HO/T lanes opened last fall, some of the complaints in the local media said things like, "How are drivers supposed to use these lanes when their GPS maps don't show them?" 

[agentsteel53]

I think there needs to be a distinction between using sat-nav as a map, vs. using it as a turn-by-turn set of instructions.

turn-by-turn is hideously inflexible and should be used only as a suggestion - but there is no way in Hell I can navigate without a map, whether it comes as a sat-nav app, a separate appliance, a printed map, an atlas in book form, or even something I drew up real fast the night before.

some people are savants and can get to the exact house in a given subdivision just based on the fact that "oh, well of course Fir Tree Lane is a left turn off of Tree Fir Avenue, I mean how else would you have named things?" but to me it's all a fucking labyrinth.  I can probably get to the nearest major city to your house just by knowing where the highways in the US go ... but you'd still have to tell me the name of that nearest major city.

[1995hoo]

Sure, but if I gave you a set of directions, I'm sure you could follow them by looking at the signs, right? That's what I found so frustrating about those people's comments: "Without a sat-nav, how will you know where to go?" Uh, you use your damn EYES and read the BGSs! That's why they post those things! (In fairness, the BGSs for two of the exits serving Tysons Corner just have the road names and do not mention any destinations and I think that was a design mistake–but at the same time, the exit near the largest shopping mall ought to be apparent because anyone can see the mall sitting right next to the highway!)

[J N Winkler]

There are sooo many variables one might run into that it's impossible teach them all.  As noted, some states permit u-turns; some don't.  In some states it's law to keep to the right or signal between lanes, others it's not.  Some states prohibit turning right on a red arrow; some don't.

I am not suggesting that students be held responsible for every fiddly state-by-state difference, especially when the legal landscape changes with every legislative session in every one of the fifty states and even the AAA and commercial mapmakers have difficulty keeping up.  However, an awareness that these differences do exist most definitely does have a place in the driver education curriculum.

And then when you get into different things like the Jersey Jughandle, Michigan left, etc, even expert drivers aren't aware of those things until they encounter them.

It still does not take that long to teach them in driver education--I would not expect an unit on unconventional intersection and cross-section designs, such as the Michigan left, CFI, jughandles, 2+1 roads, DDIs, etc. to take more than one class period out of the 90 that are available for a typical one-semester driver education class.  The main objective here is not to teach every possible variation (some of which are quite experimental), but to prepare new drivers to encounter these unusual designs in the field by explaining that they exist and identifying the problems they are supposed to solve.

Some of the oddities that are encountered on the highway system need to be seen to be believed, so it isn't really helpful to try to cover them encyclopedically through classroom instruction, even if such a thing could be done within the time constraints of a standard driver education course (which, at a typical urban public high school, is often an exercise in crowd control).  But it is important to prime students to continue learning rather than to leave them with the assumption that a very basic curriculum gives them everything they need or might find useful to negotiate the highways safely.

[jeffandnicole]

Your left-turn signal means "I'm staying on the roundabout," so I have to wait. Not using a signal means "I'm going straight," ...

So if I'm waiting to enter the circle, I could encounter a vehicle already in the circle that may be signaling left or no signal.  In both cases I would have to wait since the vehicle is already in the circle

And graphics and animations are fine and all, but the real world is much different - such as a roadway with 3 lanes entering a circle being this empty.  (I know it's only an example.)

The reality is, if I'm waiting to enter the circle, all I really care about is if the car already in the circle is exiting or not.  If he's exiting, then yes, he should use a right turn signal.  Otherwise, no turn signal is necessary because the natural curve of the road will take him to the left.  It doesn't matter to me at what point he's exiting...the fact he's in the circle prohibits me from entering. Likewise, if I'm behind someone entering a circle, his left/right turn signal doesn't mean a thing to me at that point.  Chances are another vehicle already in the circle will cause me to yield, and thus I won't be behind the vehicle that was in front of me entering the circle anyway. 

I would challange anyone that knows these signal choices by heart to follow and be followed by someone, and see if the signals helped or hurt their ability to get thru the circle.  Especially when using the left signal.

[agentsteel53]

the exit near the largest shopping mall ought to be apparent because anyone can see the mall sitting right next to the highway!)

this could be fallacious.  California loves fencing and curbing things off in such a way that it is not easily determined how to actually get to something within plain sight.

this mall, for example:
http://goo.gl/maps/3MXiR

it is cut effectively in half by the trolley tracks, so you can see a lot of things that - as you will soon find out - you cannot get to in a straight line.

"Navigating through Developer Whimsy" would be a grad-level course.

[WichitaRoads]

Speaking as a Wichita resident, I would say the two most appropriate suggestions (besides the ones you're already covering such as keeping right except to pass) are these:

1. The proper way to signal turns at a roundabout.  I don't think I've seen a single driver use a turn signal at all at a roundabout in Wichita.  We have a few in town to practice on.

2. Pedestrians have the right of way in crosswalks.  People don't seem to get the concept here.  Just yesterday, my wife and two boys and I were walking/jogging under the canal route, and came to where the path crosses 9th Street.  That crosswalk has white lines across the pavement and big yellow signs.  We had already crossed half the road, and were standing in the median about three inches from the other travel lanes–a family of four with a stroller–and not a single driver even slowed down to let us across.  I wonder if they would even have stopped if we'd simply walked out into the road.  Now, I'm sure the topic of crosswalks is covered, but be very clear about what consitutes a crosswalk, both marked and unmarked.

I hear you on roundabouts. We always cover proper signaling... Delano is a fav of mine to use. Of course, I always get, "Why do I have to signal? They don't!" My answer: "Just because they are an idiot doesn't mean you need to be. It's the law, follow it."

I make my students chant after me every day: "PEDESTRIANS ALWAYS HAVE RIGHT OF WAY, NO MATTER WHEN, WHERE, or WHAT."

ICTRds

[WichitaRoads]

For sure- at the very, very least throw your right signal on before you leave the roundabout so cars entering know you're about to leave

this has to be institutional behavior before I learn to trust it.  people here have their right turn signals on for all kinds of conflicting or spurious reasons, so "he's got his right turn signal on" is insufficient impetus for me to turn in front of a vehicle.  he could indeed be turning before intersecting my path.  or he could be turning after.  or he just likes having his turn signal on because he's got the intelligence of a paper towel.

My lesson: "Never trust another driver completely. As for signals, they might not be too bright in use. So, use your OTHER visual cues... slowing down, general movemenr, etc. Signals can be liars."

ICTRds

[1995hoo]

the exit near the largest shopping mall ought to be apparent because anyone can see the mall sitting right next to the highway!)

this could be fallacious.  California loves fencing and curbing things off in such a way that it is not easily determined how to actually get to something within plain sight.

....

Very true, and I thought of that after posting but I was away from my PC and so didn't edit it before you replied. I was thinking of a specific example, obviously–Tysons Corner, and in that case the exit is right next to the mall.

But my overall point remains that people need to be able to navigate without putting complete faith in an electronic crutch. I think that's still a valid point.

Of course, some of the helpful navigation principles that initially pop into my mind as things some people don't know, such as the exit tab being positioned to correspond to whether the exit is on the right or the left, aren't necessarily universal either–New York often puts them in the center.

[J N Winkler]

Sure, but if I gave you a set of directions, I'm sure you could follow them by looking at the signs, right?

Actually, as a general rule, that is not true.

*  Not just any old set of directions will do:  the specific ones have to be chosen to maximize relatability to the guide signing that is actually available.  Preferably, the instructions should be short enough to memorize easily, so that the driver can execute maneuvers smoothly and in good time without taking his eyes off the road or his mind off ordinary driving tasks.

*  Many signs (including most of the D-series signs for which design guidelines are laid out in MUTCD Chapter 2D) do not meet minimum engineering criteria to allow drivers to carry out maneuvers safely and legally while relying solely on them.  The classic example is street name signs, which cannot be read until you are almost on top of the intersection, well beyond the point where you have to give the legally required 100' minimum advance notice of a turn by signalling.

The sad truth is that a lot of the Chapter 2D signing that is used inside subdivisions is just an alibi and the underlying design assumption is that most drivers will be local and will be relying on familiarity, which is generally based on landmarks rather than signing.  Chapter 2D signing works for non-local drivers only to the extent that advance signing is provided on high-speed roads (e.g., junction assemblies well in advance of the actual intersection) and drivers can be relied on to study their route well in advance.

That's what I found so frustrating about those people's comments: "Without a sat-nav, how will you know where to go?" Uh, you use your damn EYES and read the BGSs! That's why they post those things! (In fairness, the BGSs for two of the exits serving Tysons Corner just have the road names and do not mention any destinations and I think that was a design mistake–but at the same time, the exit near the largest shopping mall ought to be apparent because anyone can see the mall sitting right next to the highway!)

Traffic density is high in northern Virginia, which squeezes the time available to pay attention to a navigational source like the signing or a GPS.  From your description it sounds like, for many drivers, it was a case of a totally incompetent navigational source squeezing out another that was only fractionally better.  On a high-speed road, especially one that has heavy traffic with flow that can change rapidly and unpredictably, the typical driver's cone of focus narrows sharply, so the fact that the mall can be seen from the highway is neither here nor there; a driver would be able to spot it only if he had the training to recognize a freeway-junction mall from features (such as parking lot illumination) that fall within his cone of vision on the freeway.

If you are a horny 18-year-old heterosexual male and trying to handle your car safely at 70 MPH in LOS D traffic, you won't even notice the platoon of naked women lying just outside your cone of vision.