Crash prone 'modern roundabouts'

[stevashe]

I see, I was looking for someone within the circle yielding, which would be much worse. Honestly I wouldn't even consider that as breaking a rule. As far as I know, there's no rule compelling you to go as soon as you can from a yield sign  Not to mention the truck only stops for about a second, which I think is reasonable since this is a brand new roundabout, after all.

[kphoger]

As far as I know, there's no rule compelling you to go as soon as you can from a yield sign 

The rule only says you should stop to begin with "if required for safety" (UVC Art. IV, § 11-40).

[jakeroot]

I see, I was looking for someone within the circle yielding, which would be much worse. Honestly I wouldn't even consider that as breaking a rule. As far as I know, there's no rule compelling you to go as soon as you can from a yield sign  Not to mention the truck only stops for about a second, which I think is reasonable since this is a brand new roundabout, after all.

Now may be a good time to mention why I said "rule" and not "law". Stopping unnecessarily at a yield sign is not breaking a law, but it's breaking many of the "soft" rules of roundabouts, including not stopping unless you have to.

I don't mind giving drivers a free pass, especially at a new intersection, but odd roundabout behavior doesn't seem to end after that "new" period has passed.

[jeffandnicole]

I see, I was looking for someone within the circle yielding, which would be much worse. Honestly I wouldn't even consider that as breaking a rule. As far as I know, there's no rule compelling you to go as soon as you can from a yield sign  Not to mention the truck only stops for about a second, which I think is reasonable since this is a brand new roundabout, after all.

Now may be a good time to mention why I said "rule" and not "law". Stopping unnecessarily at a yield sign is not breaking a law, but it's breaking many of the "soft" rules of roundabouts, including not stopping unless you have to.

I don't mind giving drivers a free pass, especially at a new intersection, but odd roundabout behavior doesn't seem to end after that "new" period has passed.

Some of this is apprehension, wondering if the other driver will stop.  That's defensive driving, and while it's more so for some people than others, I get it.

Some of it is people just never really understanding the rules of the road...and this group is more dangerous. These are the people that will say "everyone else is an idiot", not realizing that THEY are the one that did wrong.  These are the people that will merge on a highway as soon as possible, even though they're 30 mph under the limit, and believe the person in the right lane is at fault for having not moved over already.  These are the people that will change lanes because they put their turn signal on, believing that the signal gives them the absolute right to turn and others must yield to them.   And when it comes to roundabouts, whatever they decide to do at a roundabout is the right thing, and everyone else screwed up.  These are the loudest people to complain, and there's no convincing them that they are actually the ones causing the issues.

[cjw2001]

Update on that Kentucky roundabout - now that it has actually been completed (proper lane markings, keep right signage, yield signs, etc.) it's doing better.

https://www.core77.com/posts/108602/An-Example-of-the-Importance-of-Signage-When-US-Drivers-Dont-Know-How-to-Use-a-Roundabout

[kalvado]

Update on that Kentucky roundabout - now that it has actually been completed (proper lane markings, keep right signage, yield signs, etc.) it's doing better.

https://www.core77.com/posts/108602/An-Example-of-the-Importance-of-Signage-When-US-Drivers-Dont-Know-How-to-Use-a-Roundabout

Someone needs to tell KY engineers about modern traffic control devices. They learnt about proper signage the hard way, next lesson should be about traffic lights, though.

[ErmineNotyours]

I finally got a picture of the roundabout between two bicycle trails in Lacey, Washington.  These are actually two rail trails, though they (the railroads) used to cross on different grades.

[jeffandnicole]

Update on that Kentucky roundabout - now that it has actually been completed (proper lane markings, keep right signage, yield signs, etc.) it's doing better.

https://www.core77.com/posts/108602/An-Example-of-the-Importance-of-Signage-When-US-Drivers-Dont-Know-How-to-Use-a-Roundabout

Someone needs to tell KY engineers about modern traffic control devices. They learnt about proper signage the hard way, next lesson should be about traffic lights, though.

It has been mentioned too many times to even bother with trying to mention again, but the first video was taken during construction when traffic control people intentionally directed people the wrong way. The video intentionally left that out.

[Flint1979]

It seems like Michigan drivers can't be bothered to learn how to use a roundabout. They are popping up in Saginaw County and people in Saginaw are all mad because they don't know how to use one. Well learn how to use one. Also there has been one at I-75 and M-81 for 15 years you can't tell me that you've never gone through that intersection if you live in Saginaw.

[tigerwings]

ODOT is going to to rework the roundabout at Cherry Street, Berdan Ave, and N Detroit Ave in Toledo.

I had the pleasure to detour around this mess, and almost got hit at the roundabout at Phillips Ave.

41.68542050894232, -83.55617826575642

https://www.wtol.com/article/news/local/cherry-street-berdan-avenue-detroit-avenue-roundabout-construction-odot-dangerous-intersection-ohio/512-e805ba44-70ff-4c6d-96f8-4dfae2a08dd0

[tradephoric]

ODOT is going to to rework the roundabout at Cherry Street, Berdan Ave, and N Detroit Ave in Toledo.

I had the pleasure to detour around this mess, and almost got hit at the roundabout at Phillips Ave.

41.68542050894232, -83.55617826575642

https://www.wtol.com/article/news/local/cherry-street-berdan-avenue-detroit-avenue-roundabout-construction-odot-dangerous-intersection-ohio/512-e805ba44-70ff-4c6d-96f8-4dfae2a08dd0

Good to see they are reworking the most crash-prone intersection in Toledo.  This has always been a confusing roundabout. To most drivers it feels completely natural to take that blue path and continue along Detroit Avenue but that movement is not allowed and you risk getting side-swiped by a vehicle in the right lane.  Just a poor design from the beginning as it doesn't reflect most drivers' expectations IMO.

[skluth]

ODOT is going to to rework the roundabout at Cherry Street, Berdan Ave, and N Detroit Ave in Toledo.

I had the pleasure to detour around this mess, and almost got hit at the roundabout at Phillips Ave.

41.68542050894232, -83.55617826575642

https://www.wtol.com/article/news/local/cherry-street-berdan-avenue-detroit-avenue-roundabout-construction-odot-dangerous-intersection-ohio/512-e805ba44-70ff-4c6d-96f8-4dfae2a08dd0

Good to see they are reworking the most crash-prone intersection in Toledo.  This has always been a confusing roundabout. To most drivers it feels completely natural to take that blue path and continue along Detroit Avenue but that movement is not allowed and you risk getting side-swiped by a vehicle in the right lane.  Just a poor design from the beginning as it doesn't reflect most drivers' expectations IMO.

I don't see a problem with following the blue path as the lane markings in the roundabout look like they prohibit those in the right lane from continuing on the roundabout and having to exit onto North Detroit. The directional guidance on the street coming from the south also indicate that. However the markings going into the roundabout from Collingwood direct differently. The roundabout has contradictory markings. It's little wonder there are accidents.

[kalvado]

ODOT is going to to rework the roundabout at Cherry Street, Berdan Ave, and N Detroit Ave in Toledo.

I had the pleasure to detour around this mess, and almost got hit at the roundabout at Phillips Ave.

41.68542050894232, -83.55617826575642

https://www.wtol.com/article/news/local/cherry-street-berdan-avenue-detroit-avenue-roundabout-construction-odot-dangerous-intersection-ohio/512-e805ba44-70ff-4c6d-96f8-4dfae2a08dd0

Good to see they are reworking the most crash-prone intersection in Toledo.  This has always been a confusing roundabout. To most drivers it feels completely natural to take that blue path and continue along Detroit Avenue but that movement is not allowed and you risk getting side-swiped by a vehicle in the right lane.  Just a poor design from the beginning as it doesn't reflect most drivers' expectations IMO.
(..clipped..)

I don't see a problem with following the blue path as the lane markings in the roundabout look like they prohibit those in the right lane from continuing on the roundabout and having to exit onto North Detroit. The directional guidance on the street coming from the south also indicate that. However the markings going into the roundabout from Collingwood direct differently. The roundabout has contradictory markings. It's little wonder there are accidents.

If you look closer, you may realize that blue path is considered a right turn movement for 4 o'clock entrance. So no right turn from inner lane, e.g. no blue path.
To make things more interesting, both lanes at  7 o'clock entrance allow "straight"  movement - straight meaning exit at 12 o'clock from both lanes. So there is still a possibility of collision even with full compliance to the signage.
(yawn) year 10 of a learning curve, nothing to see here.

[jamess]

Those arrows do indeed look very confusing. Add to that, its poorly designed so the exit is perfectly straight, meaning both vehicles are accelerating.

[tradephoric]

Kelley Squre in Worcester in my opinion is a good example of a roundabout that simplified traffic movements:

[jakeroot]

^^^
One thing confusing to me about the change was the modification of the one-way system south of the roundabout.

Both Harding and Millbury had their directions switched, and I can't for the life of me figure out why this was necessary.

[swiftdo]

It seems like Michigan drivers can't be bothered to learn how to use a roundabout. They are popping up in Saginaw County and people in Saginaw are all mad because they don't know how to use one. Well learn how to use one. Also there has been one at I-75 and M-81 for 15 years you can't tell me that you've never gone through that intersection if you live in Saginaw.

You should hear people around Traverse City complain about the new roundabouts being built in the area. I think it was only a few days after it opened that a truck plowed through a new one on M 37 south of Chums Corner. Drivers up here just like to complain instead of learning how to use them.

[civilmaher]

Is there an upper limit for roundabout AADT? I'm looking into the feasibility of a multi-lane roundabout that would have an AADT of about 70,000 vehicles, and side street traffic would be approx. 12% of that share. I'm looking for a hard national guideline or standard that would tell me that this would/wouldn't be feasible. Thanks!

[kalvado]

Is there an upper limit for roundabout AADT? I'm looking into the feasibility of a multi-lane roundabout that would have an AADT of about 70,000 vehicles, and side street traffic would be approx. 12% of that share. I'm looking for a hard national guideline or standard that would tell me that this would/wouldn't be feasible. Thanks!

I would say infeasible. FHWA charts go up to 3500 VPH, not as a hard standard, but a reasonable link. More qualified sources I cannot find right now gave 30k/day at most.
https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/research/safety/00067/000674.pdf

[civilmaher]

Is there an upper limit for roundabout AADT? I'm looking into the feasibility of a multi-lane roundabout that would have an AADT of about 70,000 vehicles, and side street traffic would be approx. 12% of that share. I'm looking for a hard national guideline or standard that would tell me that this would/wouldn't be feasible. Thanks!

I would say infeasible. FHWA charts go up to 3500 VPH, not as a hard standard, but a reasonable link. More qualified sources I cannot find right now gave 30k/day at most.
https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/research/safety/00067/000674.pdf

Thanks kalvado!

[jakeroot]

I would have to agree. I am not familiar with roundabouts along roads with 70,000 AADT, at least in the United States. So my hunch would certainly lean towards infeasible.

It is possible that it could work with partial signalization during peak hours, whereby one or more approaches are metered, allowing the otherwise-burdened entry additional uninterrupted entry flow for brief periods. WSDOT installed a ramp meter to improve the flow of a roundabout in Richland, WA a couple years ago; you can read about it here.

But, ultimately, I see that more as a band-aid than a new-build solution. I think the only proper modification to this kind of intersection is an interchange.

[jeffandnicole]

I'm not going to find volume counts from 25-30 years ago, but along NJ 70 today, the traffic counts are around the 50,000-55,000 vehicle mark, and the Cherry Hill traffic circles (granted, not roundabouts) were removed in the early 1990's because they were overwhelmed with traffic.  And they used a metering system for many years prior to their removal.

[tradephoric]

Since opening in May 2020, the roundabout at Highway 95A and U.S. 50 in Silver Springs, Nevada has been the site of two fatal crashes.  The latest fatality occurred on Labor day.

Driver dies in fiery Silver Springs wreck - Preliminary investigation shows that both a red 1998 Peterbilt semi tractor-trailer car hauler and a gray 2000 Honda Accord were traveling southbound on U.S. 95A approaching the roundabout with U.S. 50.  The driver of the Peterbilt was unable to slow his vehicle due to suspected mechanical failure and the front of the Peterbilt struck the rear of the Honda, the release said. Both vehicles continued southbound and entered the raised decorative rock median of the roundabout. Both vehicles caught fire.  The driver of the Honda, who is currently unidentified due to the extent of burn damage, was pronounced deceased on scene.  https://www.nevadaappeal.com/news/2021/jun/07/driver-dies-fiery-silver-springs-wreck/

Fallon Man Dies in Crash Near U.S. 50 Roundabout in Silver Springs - Nevada Highway Patrol has identified the driver killed in a rollover crash on U.S. 50 near the roundabout in Silver Springs early Monday morning.  The crash happened just before 5:15 a.m. on Monday at U.S. 50 and U.S. 50A. NHP says a preliminary investigation shows that a gray 2007 Chevrolet Silverado was heading west on U.S. 50 when the driver failed to slow down for the roundabout and hit the decorative rock wall and went over it. At that point, NHP says the pickup flipped, landed on its roof and slid across the road before stopping.  The driver of the Chevrolet, 21-year-old Anthony King died on scene. https://www.ktvn.com/story/44675667/fatal-crash-slows-traffic-near-us-50-roundabout-in-silver-springs

[TheHighwayMan3561]

Since opening in May 2020, the roundabout at Highway 95A and U.S. 50 in Silver Springs, Nevada has been the site of two fatal crashes.  The latest fatality occurred on Labor day.

Driver dies in fiery Silver Springs wreck - Preliminary investigation shows that both a red 1998 Peterbilt semi tractor-trailer car hauler and a gray 2000 Honda Accord were traveling southbound on U.S. 95A approaching the roundabout with U.S. 50.  The driver of the Peterbilt was unable to slow his vehicle due to suspected mechanical failure and the front of the Peterbilt struck the rear of the Honda, the release said. Both vehicles continued southbound and entered the raised decorative rock median of the roundabout. Both vehicles caught fire.  The driver of the Honda, who is currently unidentified due to the extent of burn damage, was pronounced deceased on scene.  https://www.nevadaappeal.com/news/2021/jun/07/driver-dies-fiery-silver-springs-wreck/

Um, unless I'm missing something, the roundabout had absolutely nothing to do with the fatal accident. He wouldn't have been able to stop for a red light and the other driver still would have died.

[tradephoric]

Since opening in May 2020, the roundabout at Highway 95A and U.S. 50 in Silver Springs, Nevada has been the site of two fatal crashes.  The latest fatality occurred on Labor day.

Driver dies in fiery Silver Springs wreck - Preliminary investigation shows that both a red 1998 Peterbilt semi tractor-trailer car hauler and a gray 2000 Honda Accord were traveling southbound on U.S. 95A approaching the roundabout with U.S. 50.  The driver of the Peterbilt was unable to slow his vehicle due to suspected mechanical failure and the front of the Peterbilt struck the rear of the Honda, the release said. Both vehicles continued southbound and entered the raised decorative rock median of the roundabout. Both vehicles caught fire.  The driver of the Honda, who is currently unidentified due to the extent of burn damage, was pronounced deceased on scene.  https://www.nevadaappeal.com/news/2021/jun/07/driver-dies-fiery-silver-springs-wreck/

Um, unless I'm missing something, the roundabout had absolutely nothing to do with the fatal accident. He wouldn't have been able to stop for a red light and the other driver still would have died.

How are you so sure the light would have been red?