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Who Still Writes Checks?

Started by Max Rockatansky, March 17, 2021, 06:55:01 PM

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Max Rockatansky

Usually I write one or two paying my taxes to the State of California and the IRS annually.  The only reason I do this is because I don't really know if I will have an overall gain for the until late in the year with my investments.  Given that I withdraw what I owe from my investments to pay any non-work relate income I don't want to do direct deposit, hence why I still write checks.  Other than this specific instance I've found check writing to essentially be completely antiquated.  Does anyone have some weird artifact use for checks or has it passed on to being something completely irrelevant?


wanderer2575

I've set most of my regular expenses up for automatic debit (mortgage, credit card, cell phone, water, home/auto insurance).  I still write checks for medical bills, donations, some fundraiser purchases, and services (furnace repair, the guy who picks up my leaves every autumn, etc.).  I don't think it's a "weird artifact use"; I write checks when I think it's the best or easiest payment method.  And, yes, I still balance my checkbook by hand every month.

gonealookin

My quarterly sewer bill is separate from the property taxes, and that agency doesn't accept online payments.  So 4 paper checks go in the snail mail per year for that.  Occasionally there's a donation to some small charity, such as the Friends of the local Library.  But those are the only paper checks I've written in the last couple years.

webny99

You'd be surprised how many companies still pay their bills by check. That's one of the main reasons USPS manages to stay afloat.

As for personal expenses, though, I don't think it's that common anymore. We're certainly past the era of paying for groceries and such by check.

cjk374

All of my monthly bills are paid by check. I do not have anything set up to pay as an automatic draft, and nothing is connected to my checking account...and I'mgonna keep it that way! I don't trust technology. There is no such thing as "hacker-proof", so I will never trust having anything technologically connected to my account. I will always write checks & help keep the post office afloat.

I, too, balance my checkbook by hand once or twice a week.
Runnin' roads and polishin' rails.

oscar

I still write out paper checks on occasion, especially for payments to the IRS (I always owe them money, want to hang on to it as long as possible) and some repair bills I can't pay with a credit card. I've long used automatic payments from my bank account or a credit card, and have lately made online credit card payments for some other things. While I agree with cjk374's concern, having as much of my finances as possible on autopilot comes in handy during long road trips, especially the ones where I drop completely out of sight (as in zero Internet access) for days at a time.

I haven't balanced my checkbook in ages. But I do check my monthly bank statements for any surprises, make sure direct deposits went through, and make sure I have an adequate cushion to cover upcoming automatic payments.
my Hot Springs and Highways pages, with links to my roads sites:
http://www.alaskaroads.com/home.html

Rothman

I used to, because my water bill required it.

Sold the house.  Don't anticipate needing to write another check for years.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

1995hoo

My mother writes paper checks regularly. She doesn't want to use the bank's bill payment service and she says her system of writing checks works for her. Doesn't make sense to me, but if it works for her....

I use checks to move money around between banks. It's ultimately faster to write myself a check and then use mobile deposit at the other bank than it is to use PayPal or some other means of electronic transfer. My wife and I both balance the checkbooks by hand, although having most bills paid electronically, and not using debit cards, simplifies that. We don't give any creditors access to our accounts–we use the banks' bill payment services where we have to authorize the amount. The electronic bill payment is much better than mailing a paper check because it's timely. There's no reward for paying bills early, so I program payments for the day before the due date. Can't do that when you mail paper checks.

I occasionally see old ladies writing checks at the grocery store. Everyone hates getting stuck behind them, to the point where if I see an old lady waiting on line, I get on line for a different checkout.

On the whole, I find it baffling and disturbing that paper checks still have both your routing number and account number on them. It makes it too easy to steal info. That happened to my wife in 2017: She wrote a large-amount personal check as a down payment on a car and two business days later someone cleaned out her bank account. She got the money back, thankfully, but setting up a new account, getting new checks, etc., was a big hassle. We're convinced it had to be someone at the car dealership who had access to the check she wrote, but we don't know for sure because we were not informed about how any law enforcement investigation, if any, turned out.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

hotdogPi

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 17, 2021, 08:22:28 PM
I occasionally see old ladies writing checks at the grocery store. Everyone hates getting stuck behind them, to the point where if I see an old lady waiting on line, I get on line for a different checkout.

I worked at a grocery store. There were a lot of old ladies, and very few of them (very few of anyone) wrote checks.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: 1 on March 17, 2021, 08:24:01 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 17, 2021, 08:22:28 PM
I occasionally see old ladies writing checks at the grocery store. Everyone hates getting stuck behind them, to the point where if I see an old lady waiting on line, I get on line for a different checkout.

I worked at a grocery store. There were a lot of old ladies, and very few of them (very few of anyone) wrote checks.

That was a very real thing until about maybe circa 2015?   I had a nasty backup at Albertsons once when an elderly customer insisted on paying for an $8 dollar steak with a check. 

Scott5114

I was still paying all my bills with check as of October of last year. That's how my mom always did it, so that's how I learned it from her, and I never bothered to set up electronic forms of payment. However, last November, I had USPS lose an entire outgoing mailbox worth of mail: a package I sent to a friend and my electric bill payment, which caused the latter to go past due, making me subject to a late fee. Not caring to repeat the experience, I switched over all of the bills to paperless billing.

I still kind of hate it. It's way easier for a "Your bill is due" email to get lost in my inbox than it is for me to pull a paper bill out of the mailbox and set it aside. But until Louis DeJoy gets his head out of his ass, I just have to deal with it. Maybe I can set up my Gmail inbox rules to tag incoming bill emails with a special tag.

I still pay my mortgage with a check, because the documents sent out by the bank don't have any clear indication of whether paperless billing is a service they offer, and I haven't felt like hunting around on their site to see.

I don't use automatic payments, instead originating them manually each month, because I don't have enough money for that. When I pay my bills is dependent on when I get paid, which historically has always been "every 2 weeks" rather than on set dates every month, so there is no guarantee that any given day of the month won't be right before there's money in the account.

Quote from: webny99 on March 17, 2021, 07:32:42 PM
You'd be surprised how many companies still pay their bills by check. That's one of the main reasons USPS manages to stay afloat.

As for personal expenses, though, I don't think it's that common anymore. We're certainly past the era of paying for groceries and such by check.

That's mostly because of credit card fees. While consumer-oriented businesses are tolerant of them (because personal consumers will go elsewhere if they are not able to pay by credit card), business-to-business transactions tend to be a lot larger (meaning a higher fee, because they're percentage-based, as well as likelihood of exceeding transaction maximums on the card) and the customers are less likely to care about the form of payment required (large businesses have an entire department just for paying bills, and that department isn't the one who decides who the company does business with). Thus it's a lot easier to specify that payments are paid by check or ACH and not give Visa a cut of the profits.

Quote from: cjk374 on March 17, 2021, 07:50:02 PM
All of my monthly bills are paid by check. I do not have anything set up to pay as an automatic draft, and nothing is connected to my checking account...and I'mgonna keep it that way! I don't trust technology. There is no such thing as "hacker-proof", so I will never trust having anything technologically connected to my account.

The MICR line at the bottom of your check contains your full bank account number and routing number in cleartext. All that's needed to steal money out of your account is for someone to steal a single check (perhaps by grabbing it out of the mailbox before it's picked up, or for someone at the place you're paying to make a photocopy).

When I worked at the casino we had a lot of people try to cash fraudulent checks by copying the MICR line off of somebody else's check, then printing up new checks with the stolen MICR line but the fraudster's name and address on them. Would have been entirely undetectable on our end (name and address matches with the presented ID, after all) if they had not always printed them off on a home printer using the same few designs of check stock. If they'd ordered their fake checks through Walmart or Harland Clarke we would have been none the wiser.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

1995hoo

Quote from: 1 on March 17, 2021, 08:24:01 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 17, 2021, 08:22:28 PM
I occasionally see old ladies writing checks at the grocery store. Everyone hates getting stuck behind them, to the point where if I see an old lady waiting on line, I get on line for a different checkout.

I worked at a grocery store. There were a lot of old ladies, and very few of them (very few of anyone) wrote checks.

Am I supposed to conclude that somehow invalidates my comment?
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

Scott5114

#12
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 17, 2021, 08:22:28 PM
I occasionally see old ladies writing checks at the grocery store. Everyone hates getting stuck behind them, to the point where if I see an old lady waiting on line, I get on line for a different checkout.

I used to have to do that when I was in college, because I was 17 and my bank wouldn't issue a debit card to anyone under 18, though they'd happily issue checks. I would try to make it more tolerable to the people behind me by writing out the pay-to-the-order-of and signing the check before getting in line (or while in line), meaning I'd only have to write out the amount at the checkout.

I think a lot of places don't even accept checks anymore. They're slow, and if you don't have an established account with the customer they can give you a bad check and disappear. A few years after the above story, the Burger King I worked at officially stopped accepting checks. It was just as well, we usually only got one once every few months, invariably always through drive-thru where it would hold up the line the most!
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

hotdogPi

If you're paying in person, and it's not in the thousands, why not use cash?
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

Scott5114

Quote from: 1 on March 17, 2021, 08:47:22 PM
If you're paying in person, and it's not in the thousands, why not use cash?

In my case, check was the only option, since I was going to college in a state that my credit union had no branches in. The nearest branch was at least 80 miles away.

I would occasionally write checks out to cash at the college bursar's office, but I think they limited you to $50, so the cash didn't last long.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

vdeane

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 17, 2021, 08:22:28 PM
On the whole, I find it baffling and disturbing that paper checks still have both your routing number and account number on them. It makes it too easy to steal info. That happened to my wife in 2017: She wrote a large-amount personal check as a down payment on a car and two business days later someone cleaned out her bank account. She got the money back, thankfully, but setting up a new account, getting new checks, etc., was a big hassle. We're convinced it had to be someone at the car dealership who had access to the check she wrote, but we don't know for sure because we were not informed about how any law enforcement investigation, if any, turned out.
What else would they have on them?  The banks have to be able to move money from one account to another somehow.  Whatever replaced them would have the exact same issue, so it would be a massive change for no benefit.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

1995hoo

Quote from: vdeane on March 17, 2021, 09:02:00 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 17, 2021, 08:22:28 PM
On the whole, I find it baffling and disturbing that paper checks still have both your routing number and account number on them. It makes it too easy to steal info. That happened to my wife in 2017: She wrote a large-amount personal check as a down payment on a car and two business days later someone cleaned out her bank account. She got the money back, thankfully, but setting up a new account, getting new checks, etc., was a big hassle. We're convinced it had to be someone at the car dealership who had access to the check she wrote, but we don't know for sure because we were not informed about how any law enforcement investigation, if any, turned out.
What else would they have on them?  The banks have to be able to move money from one account to another somehow.  Whatever replaced them would have the exact same issue, so it would be a massive change for no benefit.

I'm not sure what the solution is, but there has to be a better way. Obviously things like single-use numbers some credit card issuers have used over the years can't work with checks, and as you note having a dummy number (like Apple Pay or E-ZPass or similar) might open the door to a similar issue. But there has to be some way to avoid having your account info so readily available. I recall when I was in college some of the guys in my dorm had their Social Security numbers printed on their checks along with their names and addresses because it made it easier so the cashier wouldn't have to copy it from their driver's licenses. I always thought that was dumb: Why provide even more information to someone who might get ahold of your checks?
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

MikeTheActuary

Quote from: 1 on March 17, 2021, 08:47:22 PM
If you're paying in person, and it's not in the thousands, why not use cash?

My primary bank isn't local, fee-free ATMs are not conveniently located, and I don't want to go through the hassle of changing banks to improve either situation.

I still pay many bills by check, but I mostly have the bank print and mail the checks, rather than doing it by hand, for those vendors that don't accept electronic transfers.  All checks I've written "the old fashioned way" in the past year have been to transfer funds from one bank to another, as mobile check deposit seems less a headache than setting up a wire transfer.

webny99

#18
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 17, 2021, 08:40:41 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 17, 2021, 08:24:01 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 17, 2021, 08:22:28 PM
I occasionally see old ladies writing checks at the grocery store. Everyone hates getting stuck behind them, to the point where if I see an old lady waiting on line, I get on line for a different checkout.

I worked at a grocery store. There were a lot of old ladies, and very few of them (very few of anyone) wrote checks.

Am I supposed to conclude that somehow invalidates my comment?

"Invalidates" is strong, but it's safe to say that he spent considerably more time there and watched and/or handled a lot more transactions than the average person that goes shopping once or twice a week.

It could also be that old ladies take a long time for reasons that have nothing to do with how they're paying.





Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2021, 08:38:02 PM
Quote from: webny99 on March 17, 2021, 07:32:42 PM
You'd be surprised how many companies still pay their bills by check. That's one of the main reasons USPS manages to stay afloat.
...

That's mostly because of credit card fees. While consumer-oriented businesses are tolerant of them (because personal consumers will go elsewhere if they are not able to pay by credit card), business-to-business transactions tend to be a lot larger (meaning a higher fee, because they're percentage-based, as well as likelihood of exceeding transaction maximums on the card) and the customers are less likely to care about the form of payment required (large businesses have an entire department just for paying bills, and that department isn't the one who decides who the company does business with). Thus it's a lot easier to specify that payments are paid by check or ACH and not give Visa a cut of the profits.

Yes, I totally understand why it is. It's mostly just surprising that companies still mail checks when ACH is free, there's no delay (although I suppose a built-in delay might be handy if cash is tight), and it's just as easy.

With that said, I can understand why someone who's been doing it the old way for 50 years might not see anything wrong with it or want to change, but what I really can't understand is companies that don't even accept payment by ACH and require checks. There's no sense in forcing everyone to do things the old way, and refusal to change will eventually end up costing you, even if it isn't now. I feel similarly about cash-only businesses.

Credit cards are another whole topic. They're advantageous for the buyer for a host of reasons, but from the sellers perspective, I can see both sides. You can usually tell quite a bit about a company (or sometimes an entire industry) from how they tend to handle credit cards.


ilpt4u

Quote from: vdeane on March 17, 2021, 09:02:00 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 17, 2021, 08:22:28 PM
On the whole, I find it baffling and disturbing that paper checks still have both your routing number and account number on them. It makes it too easy to steal info. That happened to my wife in 2017: She wrote a large-amount personal check as a down payment on a car and two business days later someone cleaned out her bank account. She got the money back, thankfully, but setting up a new account, getting new checks, etc., was a big hassle. We're convinced it had to be someone at the car dealership who had access to the check she wrote, but we don't know for sure because we were not informed about how any law enforcement investigation, if any, turned out.
What else would they have on them?  The banks have to be able to move money from one account to another somehow.  Whatever replaced them would have the exact same issue, so it would be a massive change for no benefit.
Routing numbers should be able to move away from being on checks - it wouldn't be that hard for banks/credit unions, big and small, to have a database of what banks use what routing numbers. But at the same time, any serious identity/theft thiefs would have the routing number database info, anyway

It might disuade some "small time"  check fraud, tho

Getting away from the account number? That one is harder...the receiving bank has to be able to ask for an account to take the funds from

Of course, if you really are worried about your routing and account numbers being stolen, go get a money order or a cashier's check

I don't write many paper checks personally - my rent and my car payment are paid with checks, but I have my bank send the checks to the financing credit union (for the car loan) and my LL. If I owe the IRS or the ILDOR taxes, I cut a paper check fo that, also.

Scott5114

#20
Quote from: webny99 on March 17, 2021, 10:02:27 PM
With that said, I can understand why someone who's been doing it the old way for 50 years might not see anything wrong with it or want to change, but what I really can't understand is companies that don't even accept payment by ACH and require checks. There's no sense in forcing everyone to do things the old way, and refusal to change will eventually end up costing you, even if it isn't now. I feel similarly about cash-only businesses.

Commercial bank accounts are subject to many fees that personal accounts aren't. I have a commercial account at a state-chartered bank that charges me a monthly fee for access to the ACH part of the online banking system. So I don't enable ACH, because I think I have three regular transactions a year that I don't do through a credit card, meaning it would just be wasted money to enable the ACH just to pay those three transactions. Therefore, any vendor I do a one-off large transaction with has to be paid by paper check. And, of course, if a wholesale customer wants to pay by ACH–well, again, I don't have it enabled, so send me a paper check I can deposit for free, please.

Hell, I have to pay $3 per month per account just to have online banking ("account analysis service charge"). Thus, I didn't enable online access to the savings account, so any time I have to take money out of it or put money into it, I have to go into the branch.

Banks figure that businesses make enough money that they won't notice or care about the banking fees coming out. And of course all of those fees can be written off anyway, so it's whatever. If you do that to personal checking or savings accounts, the customers will change banks. But successful businesses usually have so many transactions going in and out that changing banks would be disruptive. (Sucks to not be able to accept $500 worth of customer payments because you switched banks over a $5 fee.)
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

jeffandnicole

I use, on average, 0 checks per month.  When I write a check, it's for those rare occasions when it's a lot of money and the person/company doesn't take credit cards.  My checks have the old bank name on them, which hasn't existed for over 10 years.  But the new bank recognizes the old ABA/Routing number, so the checks are still valid.

kkt

I write 3 or 4 checks a month.  Some of my bills still charge extra to pay online.  Some of them are places I don't trust with my credit card number.  Some of them want to stop sending me paper bills, and I'm more likely to remember to actually pay the bill if I have the piece of paper to remind me.

webny99

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2021, 10:40:55 PM
Quote from: webny99 on March 17, 2021, 10:02:27 PM
With that said, I can understand why someone who's been doing it the old way for 50 years might not see anything wrong with it or want to change, but what I really can't understand is companies that don't even accept payment by ACH and require checks. There's no sense in forcing everyone to do things the old way, and refusal to change will eventually end up costing you, even if it isn't now. I feel similarly about cash-only businesses.

Commercial bank accounts are subject to many fees that personal accounts aren't. I have a commercial account at a state-chartered bank that charges me a monthly fee for access to the ACH part of the online banking system. So I don't enable ACH, because I think I have three regular transactions a year that I don't do through a credit card, meaning it would just be wasted money to enable the ACH just to pay those three transactions. Therefore, any vendor I do a one-off large transaction with has to be paid by paper check.

Yes, I get that. And of course, most companies would be doing way more than three transactions per year - they might be doing ten times that per day. Even if there is a fee (I believe it depends on the bank), it would certainly be worth it for any medium-sized or larger company. Postage isn't free, either, and once you have ACH, you have it - your costs don't change based on how much you transfer, to how many recipients, or with what frequency.


Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2021, 10:40:55 PM
And, of course, if a wholesale customer wants to pay by ACH–well, again, I don't have it enabled, so send me a paper check I can deposit for free, please.

That's fine for a small company, but increasingly, a lot of customers expect to be able to pay by ACH, so it's certainly an option you'd want to offer them, and at some point (either as it becomes the norm, or you get more requests for it, or both) it's likely to become more of a necessity than a possibility.

Scott5114

#24
Quote from: webny99 on March 17, 2021, 11:31:54 PM
Yes, I get that. And of course, most companies would be doing way more than three transactions per year - they might be doing ten times that per day. Even if there is a fee (I believe it depends on the bank), it would certainly be worth it for any medium-sized or larger company.

Far from certain–it really depends on the business and the industry the business is in. There are some businesses that require you to do business by fax machine, even now, because everyone in the industry just does stuff by fax so it doesn't seem as weird and out-of-date to them as it does everyone else.

QuotePostage isn't free, either, and once you have ACH, you have it - your costs don't change based on how much you transfer, to how many recipients, or with what frequency.

Depends on the bank. Some may charge per transaction. Mine may even, actually; the only reason I know they charge for access to the ACH portal is because I accidentally activated it once. I noticed the ACH fee, called them up and asked about it, and they re-disabled the portal for me and waived the fee.

As for the postage, the nice thing about that is that it's the customer paying it, not the seller. But as for the postage...

Quote
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2021, 10:40:55 PM
And, of course, if a wholesale customer wants to pay by ACH–well, again, I don't have it enabled, so send me a paper check I can deposit for free, please.

That's fine for a small company, but increasingly, a lot of customers expect to be able to pay by ACH, so it's certainly an option you'd want to offer them, and at some point (either as it becomes the norm, or you get more requests for it, or both) it's likely to become more of a necessity than a possibility.

I think you're overvaluing how much a business-to-business customer really cares about the method of payment. Sure, if I sell someone $23 worth of playing cards, if I don't take a convenient method of payment like a credit card, they are going to turn to another company that does. If I sell a business $23,000 worth of playing cards, they are making enough of a commitment to my product that they are really not going to kill the whole sale because I want to be paid by check instead of ACH. ("Damn, Mark, I was just about to sign this five-figure purchase agreement, but then I realized that 55¢ stamp would put us in the red for the year!") Especially because the guy that makes the decision to buy usually isn't the same guy who is going to be printing and mailing the check. In a large enough company Accounts Payable and the purchasing executive may not even have their offices on the same floor of the building.

Don't forget that a lot of these large transactions are the result of doing the legwork of going around and getting custom quotes from multiple companies. That alone can take a month. Then in a large company, there are meetings with various people in the company that have different concerns (price, merits of the product, does it do what the company needs to do, is it good value for the money, etc). Making a decision to turn a particular quote into a purchase agreement is a big commitment. Throwing away all of the hours of legwork that went into reaching a deal just because of a stamp would be a pretty big waste of manpower.

I don't do business-to-business sales often, but I have never had anyone ask to pay by ACH. The largest sale I ever did, I asked for payment by check, they offered PayPal instead, I kind of complained because I didn't incorporate PayPal fees into the quote they agreed to, so they just sent extra to cover the fees.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef



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