The flashing yellow arrow is too confusing, I wish states could go back to the old doghouse, which is waaayyyyy simpler. Where I'm at, in the Philadelphia area, they still have either normal left turn signals or doghouses, both are simple (Yellow arrow/green arrow) and are quick to get used to. Both the doghouses and the normal protected left turn signal became the PennDOT standard during the 1970s, and I don't want it to change!
I don't see how it is more complicated, it actually seems simpler:
When flashing
O
<-
O
shows, that just means
O
<- o
O O
on a dighose
What makes it more complicated, at least in my area, is that it appeared with no explanation and many drivers have no clue what it means. Especially in my home county (Oakland County, MI), which loves to do leading lefts, I've lost count of the number of times I've had to sit through an extra cycle because the person in front of me remained behind the stop line, not understanding that the flashing yellow left arrow means you can pull forward and then complete your turn when traffic clears, same as before when there was no arrow at all.
Good thing the flashing yellow arrow isn't in Maryland yet.
Quote from: traffic light guy on July 16, 2017, 10:13:06 PM
The flashing yellow arrow is too confusing, I wish states could go back to the old doghouse, which is waaayyyyy simpler. Where I'm at, in the Philadelphia area, they still have either normal left turn signals or doghouses, both are simple (Yellow arrow/green arrow) and are quick to get used to. Both the doghouses and the normal protected left turn signal became the PennDOT standard during the 1970s, and I don't want it to change!
People probably said the same thing when doghouses were first being installed.
Everyone will get used to it.
Funny enough, I know the title is wrong, but flashing yellow arrows actually prevent yellow trap if used correctly.
Quote from: RestrictOnTheHanger on July 17, 2017, 12:49:06 AM
Funny enough, I know the title is wrong, but flashing yellow arrows actually prevent yellow trap if used correctly.
Yeah, what's up with that? If he hates yellow traps, he should hate doghouses! Except in cases of railway and emergency service pre-emption, lead/lag doghouse signals are the reason that yellow trap is a thing.
traffic light guy, I understand that you like old traffic lights and standards, but times have changed. The doghouse proved itself to be an invaluable invention for many decades (and will continue to be useful for option lanes and right turn filters). But the FYA has been proven to not only be easier to understand, but safer (at least when they replace protected-only signals). They also provide a traffic engineer with greater control over the left turn phasing, allowing them to freely control when the FYA comes on, or if they want to implement lead/lag, but still allow permissive lefts.
By the way, what do you find confusing about the FYA? From what I recall reading, the FYA has time and time again proven to be easier to understand. A green orb can have two meanings (protected if going straight, un-protected if turning), whereas the FYA has only one (yield).
Quote from: jakeroot on July 17, 2017, 01:14:22 AM
Quote from: RestrictOnTheHanger on July 17, 2017, 12:49:06 AM
Funny enough, I know the title is wrong, but flashing yellow arrows actually prevent yellow trap if used correctly.
Yeah, what's up with that? If he hates yellow traps, he should hate doghouses! Except in cases of railway and emergency service pre-emption, lead/lag doghouse signals are the reason that yellow trap is a thing.
traffic light guy, I understand that you like old traffic lights and standards, but times have changed. The doghouse proved itself to be an invaluable invention for many decades (and will continue to be useful for option lanes and right turn filters). But the FYA has been proven to not only be easier to understand, but safer (at least when they replace protected-only signals). They also provide a traffic engineer with greater control over the left turn phasing, allowing them to freely control when the FYA comes on, or if they want to implement lead/lag, but still allow permissive lefts.
By the way, what do you find confusing about the FYA? From what I recall reading, the FYA has time and time again proven to be easier to understand. A green orb can have two meanings (protected if going straight, un-protected if turning), whereas the FYA has only one (yield).
Green does not mean protected if going straight. A car from the opposing direction could be turning left (either on another green orb or a flashing yellow arrow). A car could also be turning right on red on the cross street. A solid green orb also permits right turns, which again aren't protected as there may be pedestrians crossing the street.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 17, 2017, 04:38:16 AM
Green does not mean protected if going straight. A car from the opposing direction could be turning left (either on another green orb or a flashing yellow arrow). A car could also be turning right on red on the cross street. A solid green orb also permits right turns, which again aren't protected as there may be pedestrians crossing the street.
Well, it means 'protected' to the extent that any traffic signal can protect you. Which isn't very much in the grand scheme of things!
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 17, 2017, 04:38:16 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 17, 2017, 01:14:22 AM
A green orb can have two meanings (protected if going straight, un-protected if turning), whereas the FYA has only one (yield).
Green does not mean protected if going straight. A car from the opposing direction could be turning left (either on another green orb or a flashing yellow arrow). A car could also be turning right on red on the cross street.
You know I don't mean "protected" in the literal sense, Jeff. "Protected" meaning "priority over those who have not yet entered".
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 17, 2017, 04:38:16 AM
A solid green orb also permits right turns, which again aren't protected as there may be pedestrians crossing the street.
That's why I said "un-protected if turning". Left turns yield to cars and peds. Right turns yield to peds.
Yielding on left turn is the default behavior that everybody knows, regardless of whether there is a traffic light, doghouse, whatever. A red ball and/or left arrow serves to prevent left turns entirely. This is also an extension of regular rules for going straight. A green arrow means you don't have to yield (any more than you do in any situation). A flashing yellow arrow does not add any new information, and is therefore redundant (assuming there is a green ball concurrent with it).
The other situation I hate is when each direction has its own green, and it is therefore always safe to turn left without yielding, but there is no left arrow to tell you that it is safe.
Quote from: epzik8 on July 16, 2017, 11:38:11 PM
Good thing the flashing yellow arrow isn't in Maryland yet.
Yeah, but you have flashing
red arrows, which is worse because you're required to come to a full stop. :)
Quote from: epzik8 on July 16, 2017, 11:38:11 PM
Good thing the flashing yellow arrow isn't in Maryland yet.
I guess Peoria, IL was the first part of the state here to try out the Flashing Yellow. I lived there for a few months -- thought they were weird the first few times thru the intersections, but really, the local drivers end up treating it the same as a 5 Section Tower/Left Turn Yield on Green Ball phase, and I adjusted pretty quickly
That being said, I haven't noticed the Flashing Yellow (in IL) outside of the Peoria area. Southern IL, Northern IL, and East/Central IL, still seems to be using the 5 Section Towers. IL doesn't do Doghouses (typically).
Across the Mississippi in Cape Girardeau, MO, the Flashing Yellow has arrived
It seems like engineers were bored and wanted to change a light scheme somehow and the FYA came into play. LOL
When I see an arrow it means I have the right of way and a FYA could confuse people. Usually a yellow arrow means my right of way to make a left turn is coming to an end.
Making it a FYA confuses people who may turn into traffic saying "hey I had the arrow." (even tho it was blinking)
Quote from: RestrictOnTheHanger on July 17, 2017, 12:49:06 AM
Quote from: traffic light guy on July 16, 2017, 10:13:06 PM
The flashing yellow arrow is too confusing, I wish states could go back to the old doghouse, which is waaayyyyy simpler. Where I'm at, in the Philadelphia area, they still have either normal left turn signals or doghouses, both are simple (Yellow arrow/green arrow) and are quick to get used to. Both the doghouses and the normal protected left turn signal became the PennDOT standard during the 1970s, and I don't want it to change!
People probably said the same thing when doghouses were first being installed.
When doghouses were first being installed, they never made the news, unless I can fish the internet for some very very old broadcasts. Yellow traps are being shown at least a few times a year.
Quote from: traffic light guy on July 17, 2017, 09:40:10 PM
Quote from: RestrictOnTheHanger on July 17, 2017, 12:49:06 AM
Quote from: traffic light guy on July 16, 2017, 10:13:06 PM
The flashing yellow arrow is too confusing, I wish states could go back to the old doghouse, which is waaayyyyy simpler. Where I'm at, in the Philadelphia area, they still have either normal left turn signals or doghouses, both are simple (Yellow arrow/green arrow) and are quick to get used to. Both the doghouses and the normal protected left turn signal became the PennDOT standard during the 1970s, and I don't want it to change!
People probably said the same thing when doghouses were first being installed.
When doghouses were first being installed, they never made the news, unless I can fish the internet for some very very old broadcasts. Yellow traps are being shown at least a few times a year.
What does "yellow trap" mean to you? You seem to be using the term as a synonym for "flashing yellow arrow".
Quote from: jakeroot on July 17, 2017, 11:50:37 PM
Quote from: traffic light guy on July 17, 2017, 09:40:10 PM
Quote from: RestrictOnTheHanger on July 17, 2017, 12:49:06 AM
Quote from: traffic light guy on July 16, 2017, 10:13:06 PM
The flashing yellow arrow is too confusing, I wish states could go back to the old doghouse, which is waaayyyyy simpler. Where I'm at, in the Philadelphia area, they still have either normal left turn signals or doghouses, both are simple (Yellow arrow/green arrow) and are quick to get used to. Both the doghouses and the normal protected left turn signal became the PennDOT standard during the 1970s, and I don't want it to change!
People probably said the same thing when doghouses were first being installed.
When doghouses were first being installed, they never made the news, unless I can fish the internet for some very very old broadcasts. Yellow traps are being shown at least a few times a year.
What does "yellow trap" mean to you? You seem to be using the term as a synonym for "flashing yellow arrow".
Yes.
Quote from: traffic light guy on July 18, 2017, 01:18:12 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 17, 2017, 11:50:37 PM
Quote from: traffic light guy on July 17, 2017, 09:40:10 PM
Quote from: RestrictOnTheHanger on July 17, 2017, 12:49:06 AM
Quote from: traffic light guy on July 16, 2017, 10:13:06 PM
The flashing yellow arrow is too confusing, I wish states could go back to the old doghouse, which is waaayyyyy simpler. Where I'm at, in the Philadelphia area, they still have either normal left turn signals or doghouses, both are simple (Yellow arrow/green arrow) and are quick to get used to. Both the doghouses and the normal protected left turn signal became the PennDOT standard during the 1970s, and I don't want it to change!
People probably said the same thing when doghouses were first being installed.
When doghouses were first being installed, they never made the news, unless I can fish the internet for some very very old broadcasts. Yellow traps are being shown at least a few times a year.
What does "yellow trap" mean to you? You seem to be using the term as a synonym for "flashing yellow arrow".
Yes.
Why? That's needlessly confusing.
Quote from: bzakharin on July 17, 2017, 03:41:48 PM
A flashing yellow arrow does not add any new information, and is therefore redundant (assuming there is a green ball concurrent with it).
But it's not always redundant. How do you say "through traffic must stop but left turns may proceed after yielding" without an FYA or a convoluted programmable lens setup?
Quote from: Jet380 on July 18, 2017, 09:05:41 AM
Quote from: bzakharin on July 17, 2017, 03:41:48 PM
A flashing yellow arrow does not add any new information, and is therefore redundant (assuming there is a green ball concurrent with it).
But it's not always redundant. How do you say "through traffic must stop but left turns may proceed after yielding" without an FYA or a convoluted programmable lens setup?
And this is why I wish we could have the FYA in Ontario. There's an intersection near my house that often gives the opposing direction a green ball and left arrow, even if no one is going straight or right. With a FYA, I could legally make a left turn. But with the current situation, I have to wait for the green ball to show on my side.
Quote from: Jet380 on July 18, 2017, 09:05:41 AM
Quote from: bzakharin on July 17, 2017, 03:41:48 PM
A flashing yellow arrow does not add any new information, and is therefore redundant (assuming there is a green ball concurrent with it).
But it's not always redundant. How do you say "through traffic must stop but left turns may proceed after yielding" without an FYA or a convoluted programmable lens setup?
I cannot think of any situation when such a phase would be needed.
Quote from: 7/8 on July 18, 2017, 09:09:19 AM
And this is why I wish we could have the FYA in Ontario. There's an intersection near my house that often gives the opposing direction a green ball and left arrow, even if no one is going straight or right. With a FYA, I could legally make a left turn. But with the current situation, I have to wait for the green ball to show on my side.
In my area doghouses with left turn sensors are common. If both directions have left-turning vehicles then there is a left-only in both directions phase followed by a green ball in both directions. If only one direction has left-turning vehicles, that direction gets a green ball and left arrow, followed by a green ball in both directions. If there are no left turning vehicles, the green ball comes on right after red. I imagine this would work at your intersection assuming there is a dedicated left-turn lane.
Quote from: bzakharin on July 18, 2017, 11:33:45 AM
Quote from: Jet380 on July 18, 2017, 09:05:41 AM
Quote from: bzakharin on July 17, 2017, 03:41:48 PM
A flashing yellow arrow does not add any new information, and is therefore redundant (assuming there is a green ball concurrent with it).
But it's not always redundant. How do you say "through traffic must stop but left turns may proceed after yielding" without an FYA or a convoluted programmable lens setup?
I cannot think of any situation when such a phase would be needed.
Quote from: 7/8 on July 18, 2017, 09:09:19 AM
And this is why I wish we could have the FYA in Ontario. There's an intersection near my house that often gives the opposing direction a green ball and left arrow, even if no one is going straight or right. With a FYA, I could legally make a left turn. But with the current situation, I have to wait for the green ball to show on my side.
In my area doghouses with left turn sensors are common. If both directions have left-turning vehicles then there is a left-only in both directions phase followed by a green ball in both directions. If only one direction has left-turning vehicles, that direction gets a green ball and left arrow, followed by a green ball in both directions. If there are no left turning vehicles, the green ball comes on right after red. I imagine this would work at your intersection assuming there is a dedicated left-turn lane.
OK but then you have to wait longer, when there's no real reason why it's not safe to make the left turn (just you have a red ball, and no FYA). Might even have to wait a full cycle. I mean, technically, I could say "I cannot think of any situation when permissive lefts would be needed" because technically every intersection could use protected only. But that would be stupid. It's not
needed, but it's definitely advantageous.
Quote from: 7/8 on July 18, 2017, 09:09:19 AM
Quote from: Jet380 on July 18, 2017, 09:05:41 AM
Quote from: bzakharin on July 17, 2017, 03:41:48 PM
A flashing yellow arrow does not add any new information, and is therefore redundant (assuming there is a green ball concurrent with it).
But it's not always redundant. How do you say "through traffic must stop but left turns may proceed after yielding" without an FYA or a convoluted programmable lens setup?
And this is why I wish we could have the FYA in Ontario. There's an intersection near my house that often gives the opposing direction a green ball and left arrow, even if no one is going straight or right. With a FYA, I could legally make a left turn. But with the current situation, I have to wait for the green ball to show on my side.
Are the lights offset (ie: NB first, then SB next)? I don't see how a FYA would help here if you're not getting a green light to begin with. Almost sounds like that direction is the default movement, and when traffic comes from the other directions, it trips the light to cycle.
Quote from: doorknob60 on July 18, 2017, 01:08:57 PM
Quote from: bzakharin on July 18, 2017, 11:33:45 AM
Quote from: Jet380 on July 18, 2017, 09:05:41 AM
Quote from: bzakharin on July 17, 2017, 03:41:48 PM
A flashing yellow arrow does not add any new information, and is therefore redundant (assuming there is a green ball concurrent with it).
But it's not always redundant. How do you say "through traffic must stop but left turns may proceed after yielding" without an FYA or a convoluted programmable lens setup?
I cannot think of any situation when such a phase would be needed.
Quote from: 7/8 on July 18, 2017, 09:09:19 AM
And this is why I wish we could have the FYA in Ontario. There's an intersection near my house that often gives the opposing direction a green ball and left arrow, even if no one is going straight or right. With a FYA, I could legally make a left turn. But with the current situation, I have to wait for the green ball to show on my side.
In my area doghouses with left turn sensors are common. If both directions have left-turning vehicles then there is a left-only in both directions phase followed by a green ball in both directions. If only one direction has left-turning vehicles, that direction gets a green ball and left arrow, followed by a green ball in both directions. If there are no left turning vehicles, the green ball comes on right after red. I imagine this would work at your intersection assuming there is a dedicated left-turn lane.
OK but then you have to wait longer, when there's no real reason why it's not safe to make the left turn (just you have a red ball, and no FYA). Might even have to wait a full cycle. I mean, technically, I could say "I cannot think of any situation when permissive lefts would be needed" because technically every intersection could use protected only. But that would be stupid. It's not needed, but it's definitely advantageous.
I personally have a hard time seeing how a permissive left gets treated any differently from a straight. It just feels weird.
Quote from: Mergingtraffic on July 17, 2017, 09:07:31 PM
It seems like engineers were bored and wanted to change a light scheme somehow and the FYA came into play. LOL
When I see an arrow it means I have the right of way and a FYA could confuse people. Usually a yellow arrow means my right of way to make a left turn is coming to an end.
Making it a FYA confuses people who may turn into traffic saying "hey I had the arrow." (even tho it was blinking)
Actually, a considerable amount of research and actual field evaluation (as opposed to relying on lab simulators) went into the FYA to demonstrate it actually provided a safety improvement BEFORE it went to interim approval and eventually became an MUTCD standard. Unlike other things (cough - APL signs - cough) that somehow immediately went from a conceptual design to mandatory standard with limited development beforehand, and not even the benefit of an interim approval period to vet it in the field.
Quote from: bzakharin on July 18, 2017, 11:33:45 AM
Quote from: Jet380 on July 18, 2017, 09:05:41 AM
But it's not always redundant. How do you say "through traffic must stop but left turns may proceed after yielding" without an FYA or a convoluted programmable lens setup?
I cannot think of any situation when such a phase would be needed.
1) Certain preemption situations for traffic signals at railroad crossings and near fire stations
2) Coordination with protective-permissive lead-lag lefts
3) Locations with closely space intersections where it may be beneficial to stop traffic before it builds back into the first intersection - Example intersection in Illinois where this seems to be done (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0807214,-87.9368756,3a,53.2y,66.77h,86.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdrUx4g_HRXW_mbFypH_jSg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en)
The flashing yellow arrow has more flexibility in signal head placement than using a visibility limited head via louvers or programmable sections, make it easier to provide redundant heads away from the turn lane (such as far left side heads) and is also easier to be used for span wire installations.
Quote from: bzakharin on July 18, 2017, 11:33:45 AM
Quote from: Jet380 on July 18, 2017, 09:05:41 AM
Quote from: bzakharin on July 17, 2017, 03:41:48 PM
A flashing yellow arrow does not add any new information, and is therefore redundant (assuming there is a green ball concurrent with it).
But it's not always redundant. How do you say "through traffic must stop but left turns may proceed after yielding" without an FYA or a convoluted programmable lens setup?
I cannot think of any situation when such a phase would be needed.
To prevent a yellow trap. Which is what this thread is all about, supposedly.
NB has green ball and green left arrow. (lagging protected, initiated because the sensors did not see any oncoming SB traffic) SB has red ball and flashing yellow arrow - if it didn't have FYA, there would have been a yellow trap.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 18, 2017, 01:16:09 PM
Quote from: 7/8 on July 18, 2017, 09:09:19 AM
Quote from: Jet380 on July 18, 2017, 09:05:41 AM
Quote from: bzakharin on July 17, 2017, 03:41:48 PM
A flashing yellow arrow does not add any new information, and is therefore redundant (assuming there is a green ball concurrent with it).
But it's not always redundant. How do you say "through traffic must stop but left turns may proceed after yielding" without an FYA or a convoluted programmable lens setup?
And this is why I wish we could have the FYA in Ontario. There's an intersection near my house that often gives the opposing direction a green ball and left arrow, even if no one is going straight or right. With a FYA, I could legally make a left turn. But with the current situation, I have to wait for the green ball to show on my side.
Are the lights offset (ie: NB first, then SB next)? I don't see how a FYA would help here if you're not getting a green light to begin with. Almost sounds like that direction is the default movement, and when traffic comes from the other directions, it trips the light to cycle.
No, I'll explain it again to be more clear.
Here's the intersection from my perspective: https://goo.gl/maps/f6BYahq9G1z (https://goo.gl/maps/f6BYahq9G1z)
I'm trying to make a left onto Fairway Rd. Since there are usually several cars trying to turn left from the opposing direction (coming down Lackner Blvd), they usually get the left arrow. For my direction, either
a) if there's a few cars behind me, I'll also get the arrow
b) if it's just me, I won't get the arrow
Since there's no actuation sensors for the through lanes on Lackner, the lights will often assume there's a few cars going straight/right, and therefore will give Lackner the arrow+ball. However, there's often only 1 car (sometimes none) going straight. Therefore, with an FYA I could safely turn left, but without it, I have to wait for the green ball.
I'll admit the time savings is small, so maybe this sounds petty, but considering the lights are already capable of green flashing arrows and yellow solid arrows (on a single lens), it seems easy for them to also do FYA's. Of course, the MTO would have to approve them first, but hey, that time savings adds up :)