I-95 Delaware River Scudder Falls bridge replacement (toll?)

[roadman65]

https://goo.gl/maps/YxVz7Kx2PU3PMg4k6
NYTA signs I-287 direction less where it enters NY from NJ.  There it goes from North to East and no mention of the change at all.
https://goo.gl/maps/kJ6MTpPqYQ2tRLyC7
The same going the other way.

[jeffandnicole]

Nah, I don't think it's worth going around the country, looking up every single route that had a change of directions, and try to unjustify this new sign's existence.

And we're continuing to beat a dead horse on the topic of the location of the change in cardinal directions, or what route number it should've been.   NJDOT, PennDOT and the Feds probably have spent much less time on the subject than we have.

This is not a true beltway (more like the northern half of one), so the intuition of cardinal direction changes is likely not as well understood here.  I get questions from neighbors, fellow parishioners and co-workers about this subject frequently.  I usually shrug my shoulders before trying to explain it.

To understand it, and to fully explain it, is trying to go back in time.  Without the Somerset Freeway, 95 north of Philly acted more as a spur route than a main interstate highway.  295 was never supposed to be a beltway, but rather a bypass.  The result of the lack of 95 being completed as proposed in NJ was a little surgery northeast of Trenton to tie in where 95 and 295 would've originally met. But, the net result is the functionality of the area's highways changed.  For those in Bucks County - they should be glad...there's no way 95 could've remained 2 lanes wide per direction if 95 was completed as originally designed.

In a way, there's still almost a full-fledged beltway.  Take the 295 loop around Trenton, go East on 195, pick up the NJ Turnpike going south, take the PA Turnpike Extension, and you're back at the 95/295 interchange.  Of course, there's no direct connection between the PA Turnpike and 295 North of the PA Turnpike, and the bypass would incur 3 separate route numbers and interchanges.

It's ironic that after years of Scudder Falls Bridge being 95, it was downgraded to 295 at the same time it was being widened from 4 to 9 lanes wide.  And what became 95 is stuck at 4 lanes wide!

[roadman65]

This is AARoads a discussion where we talk about things that could be better.  NJ could have done it better IMO, but I am going to live with it just like I live with a traffic light in Breezwood, PA along I-70 even though its wrong for it to be there.  I won't boycott the town though like some do on here either.

I even put up with this considering NJ to be a city and not a state as NYSTA does at Exit 15.
https://goo.gl/maps/F1LHnWSioKFWJA8y8

[Roadwarriors79]

So how many tolled crossings going from NJ to PA will have no cash option once this project is done? Just I-95 and I-295?

[PHLBOS]

So how many tolled crossings going from NJ to PA will have no cash option once this project is done? Just I-95 and I-295?

I believe those two are presently* the only cash-less Delaware River crossings thus far.

*I-295/Scudder Falls Bridge tolls go into effect this July 10th.

[akotchi]

Nah, I don't think it's worth going around the country, looking up every single route that had a change of directions, and try to unjustify this new sign's existence.

I agree.  There are operational and historical differences between the examples cited to cause the treatments to be done the way they were at each location.

This is not a true beltway (more like the northern half of one), so the intuition of cardinal direction changes is likely not as well understood here.  I get questions from neighbors, fellow parishioners and co-workers about this subject frequently.  I usually shrug my shoulders before trying to explain it.

To understand it, and to fully explain it, is trying to go back in time.  Without the Somerset Freeway, 95 north of Philly acted more as a spur route than a main interstate highway.  295 was never supposed to be a beltway, but rather a bypass.  The result of the lack of 95 being completed as proposed in NJ was a little surgery northeast of Trenton to tie in where 95 and 295 would've originally met. But, the net result is the functionality of the area's highways changed.  For those in Bucks County - they should be glad...there's no way 95 could've remained 2 lanes wide per direction if 95 was completed as originally designed.

The challenge is explaining all that both briefly and in such a way that the questioner understands . . .

[roadman]

Courtesy of Zeffy on the NJ thread:

Sorry for the garbage dash-cam photos, but I saw these lying around heading into PA on the Scudders Falls Bridge. They've actually made a fair amount of work in the past couple of months.

*Facepalm* on that BGS legend below the PAY TOLL 2 MILES sign. 

IMHO, it would be better to either have similar signage to what the NYS Thruway (I-87/287) has on approaching the Tappan Zee with a 2 MILES (or 2 MILES AHEAD) in the main sign legend or maintain similar to what's shown above but eliminate the additional/redundant I-295 shield and the confusing, alternating direction cardinals so that the panel simply reads:

TOLL 2 MILES              (IMHO, the term PAY implies stopping at a toll plaza)
             SOUTH
295  TO   95
Philadelphia

Actually, the placement of the “TO” is more troublesome. Shouldn’t it be above the shields?

That's been MassDOT practice for several years now, to place 'TO' between the shields of the principal route and the routes being trailblazed.

[roadman65]

In NJ that has always been the practice.  Even if the trailblazed route is acting as a control city they will leave that part blank.

Hey look at IDOT and their signing of I-255 and I-24 where the spelled out Interstate 270 and Interstate 57 are used instead of doing what others do and use a shield next to it or beneath it.

If anyone is going to lose sleep over this then look at worse signing scenarios like Illinois.

[PHLBOS]

And we're continuing to beat a dead horse on the topic of the location of the change in cardinal directions, or what route number it should've been.  NJDOT, PennDOT and the Feds probably have spent much less time on the subject than we have.

And it shows. *ducks* 
All kidding aside; did you, by any chance, mean to say that those agencies spent more time on the subject than we have?

For those in Bucks County - they should be glad...there's no way 95 could've remained 2 lanes wide per direction if 95 was completed as originally designed.

That's just it.  The Delaware Expressway in Bucks County and the original/current Scudder Falls Bridge were designated as I-95 from the get-go... decades prior to NJDOT pulling the plug on the proposed Somerset Freeway section of I-95.  With the above in mind, one has to wonder why the Bucks County stretch north of PA 413 (current Exit 39) and the original/current bridge wasn't built as a 6-laner from day one.

[odditude]

And we're continuing to beat a dead horse on the topic of the location of the change in cardinal directions, or what route number it should've been.  NJDOT, PennDOT and the Feds probably have spent much less time on the subject than we have.

And it shows. *ducks* 
All kidding aside; did you, by any chance, mean to say that those agencies spent more time on the subject than we have?

i wouldn't be surprised if we've put more man-hours on the subject just this past week then those agencies did overall.

[Beltway]

The Delaware Expressway in Bucks County and the original/current Scudder Falls Bridge were designated as I-95 from the get-go... decades prior to NJDOT pulling the plug on the proposed Somerset Freeway section of I-95.  With the above in mind, one has to wonder why the Bucks County stretch north of PA 413 (current Exit 39) and the original/current bridge wasn't built as a 6-laner from day one.

Maybe part of the same decision process that didn't provide a continuous 8 lanes between I-476 and Academy Road, but had several short 3-lane sections each way?

The current rebuilds between I-676 and Academy Road will provide a continuous 4 thru lanes each way, eliminating those annoying lane drops.

[PHLBOS]

The Delaware Expressway in Bucks County and the original/current Scudder Falls Bridge were designated as I-95 from the get-go... decades prior to NJDOT pulling the plug on the proposed Somerset Freeway section of I-95.  With the above in mind, one has to wonder why the Bucks County stretch north of PA 413 (current Exit 39) and the original/current bridge wasn't built as a 6-laner from day one.

Maybe part of the same decision process that didn't provide a continuous 8 lanes between I-476 and Academy Road, but had several short 3-lane sections each way?

It's worth noting that unlike the northern stretch in Bucks County; the stretch of I-95 in your description was likely designed & built under the presumption that other-but-ultimately-cancelled highways (I-695/Cobbs Creek & Crosstown, the Tacony/Pulaski, & 12-Mile-Loop Expressways) would eventually be built, thereby taking the traffic-pressure off I-95.

The current rebuilds between I-676 and Academy Road will provide a continuous 4 thru lanes each way, eliminating those annoying lane drops.

Absolutely.

[Beltway]

Maybe part of the same decision process that didn't provide a continuous 8 lanes between I-476 and Academy Road, but had several short 3-lane sections each way?

It's worth noting that unlike the northern stretch in Bucks County; the stretch of I-95 in your description was likely designed & built under the presumption that other-but-ultimately-cancelled highways (I-695/Cobbs Creek & Crosstown, the Tacony/Pulaski, & 12-Mile-Loop Expressways) would eventually be built, thereby taking the traffic-pressure off I-95.

But then why not just make all of it 6 lanes instead what seems to be a 8-lane corridor with these lane drops?

I will grant that the large amount of exiting and entering traffic at I-676, that 3 thru lanes each way is appropriate between those exiting and entering ramps.

[PHLBOS]

But then why not just make all of it 6 lanes instead what seems to be a 8-lane corridor with these lane drops?

I will grant that the large amount of exiting and entering traffic at I-676, that 3 thru lanes each way is appropriate between those exiting and entering ramps.

To a degree, you just answered your own question.  The 8-lane corridors (6 w/2 lane drops) at other interchanges was intended to accommodate higher volume entering/exiting traffic.

[Beltway]

But then why not just make all of it 6 lanes instead what seems to be a 8-lane corridor with these lane drops?
I will grant that the large amount of exiting and entering traffic at I-676, that 3 thru lanes each way is appropriate between those exiting and entering ramps.

To a degree, you just answered your own question.  The 8-lane corridors (6 w/2 lane drops) at other interchanges was intended to accommodate higher volume entering/exiting traffic.

I didn't notice that on the segment completed in the late 1960s between Front Street and Academy Road.

There were three lane drops in one direction and four lane drops in the other direction, at local interchanges, and there didn't seen to be enough entering/leaving traffic to warrant these lane drops.

The 6-lane segment between Broad Street and the Whitman Bridge was another matter, not sure why that wasn't built with 8 lanes, as originally the segment between Enterprise Avenue and Broad Street was painted with 4 lanes each way, and the segment between the Whitman Bridge and I-676 was built with (and still has) 8 lanes.

[PHLBOS]

The 6-lane segment between Broad Street and the Whitman Bridge was another matter, not sure why that wasn't built with 8 lanes, as originally the segment between Enterprise Avenue and Broad Street was painted with 4 lanes each way, and the segment between the Whitman Bridge and I-676 was built with (and still has) 8 lanes.

IIRC, when the Girard Point Bridge and related approaches were originally painted as 8 lanes total; there were no shoulders; which, for the bridge, was a problem in the event of vehicle break-downs/emergencies.  Not sure when it was first repainted to the current 6 lanes w/shoulders (it's been such since at least 1990); I'm guessing such coincided with the 1985 opening of the missing link between Exit 10 and Enterprise Ave., adjacent to the airport.

[jeffandnicole]

And we're continuing to beat a dead horse on the topic of the location of the change in cardinal directions, or what route number it should've been.  NJDOT, PennDOT and the Feds probably have spent much less time on the subject than we have.

And it shows. *ducks* 
All kidding aside; did you, by any chance, mean to say that those agencies spent more time on the subject than we have?

i wouldn't be surprised if we've put more man-hours on the subject just this past week then those agencies did overall.

Yep - you get it!

In NJ that has always been the practice.  Even if the trailblazed route is acting as a control city they will leave that part blank.

I believe that was in reference to the placement of the 'To'.  There is one location on Rt. 42 North where they placed it over the route, not in between the routes: https://goo.gl/maps/Svrbw8fEDK3pB2tLA .  Personally, I always thought 'To' should be placed above each route shield that the exit will lead you to.

[Beltway]

The 6-lane segment between Broad Street and the Whitman Bridge was another matter, not sure why that wasn't built with 8 lanes, as originally the segment between Enterprise Avenue and Broad Street was painted with 4 lanes each way, and the segment between the Whitman Bridge and I-676 was built with (and still has) 8 lanes.

IIRC, when the Girard Point Bridge and related approaches were originally painted as 8 lanes total; there were no shoulders; which, for the bridge, was a problem in the event of vehicle break-downs/emergencies.  Not sure when it was first repainted to the current 6 lanes w/shoulders (it's been such since at least 1990); I'm guessing such coincided with the 1985 opening of the missing link between Exit 10 and Enterprise Ave., adjacent to the airport.

The Girard Point Bridge did have right and left shoulders, just they appeared to be 4 feet wide.  But then much of the elevated sections in Northeast Philadelphia were built the same way, so I surmise that the designers of the Girard Point Bridge were aware of that.

So a 56 foot wide bridge deck would mean a configuration of 4-12-12-12-12-4 or 10-12-12-12-10.

So the Girard Point Bridge was 3 lanes each way in 1990?  I am surprised that it was changed that soon.  The bridge opened I believe in 1977.  The aforementioned 6-lane segment between Broad Street and the Whitman Bridge may have had something to do with the acceptability of reducing the number of lanes on the Girard Point Bridge, but I figured that Broad Street at IIRC 8 lanes was a major feeder to and from I-95 to the southwestern part of the city and to Delaware County, so I could see the desirability of having 8 lanes on the Girard Point Bridge.

[PHLBOS]

The 6-lane segment between Broad Street and the Whitman Bridge was another matter, not sure why that wasn't built with 8 lanes, as originally the segment between Enterprise Avenue and Broad Street was painted with 4 lanes each way, and the segment between the Whitman Bridge and I-676 was built with (and still has) 8 lanes.

IIRC, when the Girard Point Bridge and related approaches were originally painted as 8 lanes total; there were no shoulders; which, for the bridge, was a problem in the event of vehicle break-downs/emergencies.  Not sure when it was first repainted to the current 6 lanes w/shoulders (it's been such since at least 1990); I'm guessing such coincided with the 1985 opening of the missing link between Exit 10 and Enterprise Ave., adjacent to the airport.

The Girard Point Bridge did have right and left shoulders, just they appeared to be 4 feet wide.

I believe that the viaducts were constructed with such.  The bridge itself had narrower shoulders if any.  Either way, such (even at 4-feet) is still a bit narrow for vehicle break-downs or emergencies.   

During a reconstruction project circa 2011-2012; the temporary striping for the Girard Point Bridge reverted close/back to their original 70s locations.  Based on the vintage GSV, such doesn't appear to have any shoulders let alone 4-foot wide ones. 

But then much of the elevated sections in Northeast Philadelphia were built the same way, so I surmise that the designers of the Girard Point Bridge were aware of that.

Most of the elevated sections in Northeast Philly are older than the Girard Point Bridge.  Construction of the bridge BTW started in 1968 and was completed by 1973.  I don't believe that shoulders, let alone wide ones, were mandated for bridges back then.

So the Girard Point Bridge was 3 lanes each way in 1990?  I am surprised that it was changed that soon.  The bridge opened I believe in 1977.  The aforementioned 6-lane segment between Broad Street and the Whitman Bridge may have had something to do with the acceptability of reducing the number of lanes on the Girard Point Bridge, but I figured that Broad Street at IIRC 8 lanes was a major feeder to and from I-95 to the southwestern part of the city and to Delaware County, so I could see the desirability of having 8 lanes on the Girard Point Bridge.

Per my earlier & above-posted comments.  The bridge was likely restriped to 6 lanes with shoulders on both sides when the last piece of I-95 (not counting last September's PA Turnpike-link ramps) opened in 1985.  At the northern ends of the bridge; the striping transitions back to 8 lanes upon approaching the PA 611/Broad St. (Exit 17) interchange with the far-right lane being an exit-only lane.  For the southbound lanes, The far-left lane starts at the entrance ramp from Exit 17 and blends in on along the actual bridge deck.

[Beltway]

The bridge was likely restriped to 6 lanes with shoulders on both sides when the last piece of I-95 (not counting last September's PA Turnpike-link ramps) opened in 1985. 

Which is surprising as that is when the 8 to 10 lane wide I-95 was completed thru the airport area, which would have greatly increased traffic on the bridge, considering the minimal 4-lane arterial connection that Enterprise Avenue provided previously to that.

At the northern ends of the bridge; the striping transitions back to 8 lanes upon approaching the PA 611/Broad St. (Exit 17) interchange with the far-right lane being an exit-only lane.  For the southbound lanes, The far-left lane starts at the entrance ramp from Exit 17 and blends in on along the actual bridge deck.

That last image looks exactly like what was originally carried across the bridge in both directions.  If the shoulders aren't 4 feet wide they are at least 3 feet and while obviously not wide enough for a car, at least the parapet isn't right up against the edge of the traffic lane.

[mrsman]

And we're continuing to beat a dead horse on the topic of the location of the change in cardinal directions, or what route number it should've been.  NJDOT, PennDOT and the Feds probably have spent much less time on the subject than we have.

And it shows. *ducks* 
All kidding aside; did you, by any chance, mean to say that those agencies spent more time on the subject than we have?

i wouldn't be surprised if we've put more man-hours on the subject just this past week then those agencies did overall.

Yep - you get it!

In NJ that has always been the practice.  Even if the trailblazed route is acting as a control city they will leave that part blank.

I believe that was in reference to the placement of the 'To'.  There is one location on Rt. 42 North where they placed it over the route, not in between the routes: https://goo.gl/maps/Svrbw8fEDK3pB2tLA .  Personally, I always thought 'To' should be placed above each route shield that the exit will lead you to.

With regard to this thread and the 95/Tpke Interchange thread, many of us proposed ideas as to how to deal with the situation of renumbering the old 95 between US 1 north of Trenton and the 95/Tpke interchange.  Ideas involving numbering this as 195, 295, or a new number like 695.  Ideas regarding how to delineate the change of direction so that we don't have two north-south 295's on both sides of the river.  The state authorities did not listen and put in place what many feel is confusing signage.

The only remedy for this situation -- as well as other examples of confusing signage like where an E-W highway goes for several miles in the N-S direction (example: I-278 in Brooklyn and Queens)-- is that all of the relevant signage must use appropriate control cities.  So far, it seems like that is happening, at least on the highway mainlines.  Trenton, Princeton, Camden, and Philadelphia are used in an appropriate fashion at least at the highway mainline BGSes.  So kudos to the state DOTs.

But I'm afraid there is not the same level of investment at on-ramps from local streets.   A sign like these are woefully inadequate:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.2884144,-74.7586971,3a,75y,244.81h,91.54t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srs_NsF4UWJ_qniJD4pkEiQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.2867267,-74.8112345,3a,75y,23.75h,77.92t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1slsoZsFY4BN3SAYOktP4S4w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I-295 south.

It means toward Camden, but wouldn't going to Philadelphia also be to the south.  No, you need to go north then west then south.

Confusing.

[Zeffy]

New permanent guide sign put up for Exit 76/NJ 29. Unlike most NJ freeway signs, this one is missing the black border around the 29 shield (which is kinda hard to tell from my dashcam, but believe me).



They also threw up the other sign that I posted, covering up the PAY TOLL legend.

[jeffandnicole]

New permanent guide sign put up for Exit 76/NJ 29. Unlike most NJ freeway signs, this one is missing the black border around the 29 shield (which is kinda hard to tell from my dashcam, but believe me).

It's going on 3 or 4 years now since they stopped putting the black border around the shield.

[akotchi]

^^^ To the comment above regarding the inadequacy of only trailblazer signing on the interchange crossroads ... when the section was still I-95, there were small guide signs with destinations.  For whatever reason, most were removed when the resigning work was performed.  Some said New York and Camden, but they should at least have been replaced.  The one piece of guidance that would be mostly unchanged was removed ... shaking my head over that ...

[Verlanka]

And we're continuing to beat a dead horse on the topic of the location of the change in cardinal directions, or what route number it should've been.  NJDOT, PennDOT and the Feds probably have spent much less time on the subject than we have.

And it shows. *ducks* 
All kidding aside; did you, by any chance, mean to say that those agencies spent more time on the subject than we have?

i wouldn't be surprised if we've put more man-hours on the subject just this past week then those agencies did overall.

Yep - you get it!

Well played.