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Author Topic: I-66 HO/T Lanes  (Read 117278 times)

Beltway

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Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
« Reply #350 on: December 12, 2017, 12:27:18 AM »

They do a poor job of maintaining the lines, lack of tree trimming in the neighborhoods, every time there is a major storm tens of thousands of people lose power.  It was never this bad 15 to 30 years ago.  I lost power for over 12 hours in the 4 inch snowstorm a few days ago, granted it was a wet snow that caused tree branches to fall.
Regarding removal of vegetation near and along overhead lines, is that really Dominion's fault?  I get the impression that many people who live along streets and roads with Dominion distribution lines get mighty upset when utility tree contractors (such as Asplundh) show up to remove limbs and branches from near those lines, and then the branches come down on the wires during storms (including snow and ice storms and hurricanes and severe thunderstorms in  the warmer months).

I haven't heard of anyone getting upset about it, and the power company has a permanent easement along the power lines behind the houses, property owners can't do this, it is the responsibility of the power company.

I have lived here since 1994 and I have never seen power company works to trim trees, and there is a tangle of big trees along the power lines.  I have complained 3 times by phone in the last 15 years.  I need to send a letter this time.
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1995hoo

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Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
« Reply #351 on: December 12, 2017, 08:41:14 AM »

As I kind of expected would be the case, I’ve neither seen nor heard anything yesterday or so far today about the I-66 tolls. People’s initial outrage couldn’t last as their attention moved on to other things, I guess.
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jeffandnicole

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Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
« Reply #352 on: December 12, 2017, 08:51:41 AM »

As I kind of expected would be the case, I’ve neither seen nor heard anything yesterday or so far today about the I-66 tolls. People’s initial outrage couldn’t last as their attention moved on to other things, I guess.

Especially when most of the people expressing outrage weren't impacted whatsoever by the tolls.  Some of them probably don't even live in the region, but still keep tabs on the news in the area.
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1995hoo

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Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
« Reply #353 on: December 12, 2017, 02:26:52 PM »

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—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

1995hoo

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Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
« Reply #354 on: December 13, 2017, 10:43:42 AM »

As I kind of expected would be the case, I’ve neither seen nor heard anything yesterday or so far today about the I-66 tolls. People’s initial outrage couldn’t last as their attention moved on to other things, I guess.

Especially when most of the people expressing outrage weren't impacted whatsoever by the tolls.  Some of them probably don't even live in the region, but still keep tabs on the news in the area.

This comment really hits home this morning: Last night my wife’s brother called. He lives near Miami. She answered the phone, but it was pretty clear that he had seen a news report about the I-66 tolls and he was outraged, said “they” should ban “that sort of thing.” My wife tried to give him facts, but he’d already made up his mind. Maybe if we see him next week when we’re in Florida I can explain it better if it comes up. But seriously, why the heck is someone near Miami, who has not been to the DC area since September 2009, worried at all about the I-66 tolls?!
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"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

1995hoo

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Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
« Reply #355 on: December 13, 2017, 08:26:20 PM »

WTOP had two interesting articles today.

The first is a bunch of stats from the I-66 HO/T system's first four days: https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2017/12/first-4-days-66-tolling-numbers/

The second one says Virginia may use some of the toll revenue to help fund a PPTA arrangement to build a second Rosslyn Metro station and/or to rebuild the Long Bridge: https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2017/12/part-66-tolls-fund-new-rosslyn-metro-station-vre-bridge/

The Rosslyn part is interesting but sounds like a pipe dream because of the need to fund another tunnel across the District to which the new station would connect. Still, it's something WMATA should be taking seriously and making efforts to design for the future.
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"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

Beltway

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Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
« Reply #356 on: December 13, 2017, 10:00:22 PM »

The second one says Virginia may use some of the toll revenue to help fund a PPTA arrangement to build a second Rosslyn Metro station and/or to rebuild the Long Bridge: https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2017/12/part-66-tolls-fund-new-rosslyn-metro-station-vre-bridge/
The Rosslyn part is interesting but sounds like a pipe dream because of the need to fund another tunnel across the District to which the new station would connect. Still, it's something WMATA should be taking seriously and making efforts to design for the future.

At the CTB meeting last week one of the agenda items was an update on the plan to add 2 tracks to the 2-track Long Bridge (Potomac River, mainline railroad), that is a needed and worthwhile project.

The "second Rosslyn Metro station" would be part of a new subway line in VA and D.C. that would probably entail $5 to $8 billion in construction costs depending on the length.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 10:02:45 PM by Beltway »
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Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
« Reply #357 on: December 14, 2017, 09:41:23 AM »

Given that the Silver Line has all but emasculated the Blue Line through DC (and at the existing Rosslyn station), I think there'd be some independent utility in building a 2nd Rosslyn metro station even without the new tunnel.  The Blue Line could then terminate at Rosslyn and more Blue, Orange, and Silver Line trains could be run, with the additional Orange and Silver Line trains replacing the Blue Line from Rosslyn into/thru DC.
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1995hoo

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Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
« Reply #358 on: December 14, 2017, 11:46:12 AM »

Given that the Silver Line has all but emasculated the Blue Line through DC (and at the existing Rosslyn station), I think there'd be some independent utility in building a 2nd Rosslyn metro station even without the new tunnel.  The Blue Line could then terminate at Rosslyn and more Blue, Orange, and Silver Line trains could be run, with the additional Orange and Silver Line trains replacing the Blue Line from Rosslyn into/thru DC.


This is all a valid analysis that would merit consideration, although I do know from a practical standpoint WMATA have been against the idea of ending trains short of downtown in regular weekday operation for fear of losing passengers if people are required to change trains to get into the city. They made a big deal about providing a “one-seat ride” when the Silver Line was designed (this is why it doesn’t end at West Falls Church).

Of course, they sometimes seem to want to delete the Blue Line altogether, so maybe they’d reconsider the “one-seat” policy. The overall experience with “Rush Plus” Yellow Service from Springfield being less popular than they’d hoped should counsel caution, though. There are a lot of riders who go from Springfield to Foggy Bottom or Farragut West.
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"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

Beltway

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Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
« Reply #359 on: December 14, 2017, 12:03:02 PM »

Given that the Silver Line has all but emasculated the Blue Line through DC (and at the existing Rosslyn station), I think there'd be some independent utility in building a 2nd Rosslyn metro station even without the new tunnel.  The Blue Line could then terminate at Rosslyn and more Blue, Orange, and Silver Line trains could be run, with the additional Orange and Silver Line trains replacing the Blue Line from Rosslyn into/thru DC.
This is all a valid analysis that would merit consideration, although I do know from a practical standpoint WMATA have been against the idea of ending trains short of downtown in regular weekday operation for fear of losing passengers if people are required to change trains to get into the city. They made a big deal about providing a “one-seat ride” when the Silver Line was designed (this is why it doesn’t end at West Falls Church).
Of course, they sometimes seem to want to delete the Blue Line altogether, so maybe they’d reconsider the “one-seat” policy. The overall experience with “Rush Plus” Yellow Service from Springfield being less popular than they’d hoped should counsel caution, though. There are a lot of riders who go from Springfield to Foggy Bottom or Farragut West.

Even at 3-platform stations that were designed for sub-line turnarounds, WMATA has seen little practical utility in actually running such lines.

There is a problem in putting 3 lines on one route, in this case between Rosslyn and Stadium-Armory.  The system was well balanced with the original single line and double line scheme.  There is no really ideal way to do it, and having a line terminate in the urban core would have its own problems.
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1995hoo

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Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
« Reply #360 on: December 14, 2017, 03:46:25 PM »

Seems the I-66 toll reached $44.00 for six minutes this morning due in part to slow traffic related to an incident on the Roosevelt Bridge. I’m sure the fact that it was for only six minutes will be omitted from most news reports.
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"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

DeaconG

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Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
« Reply #361 on: December 14, 2017, 07:10:37 PM »

As I kind of expected would be the case, I’ve neither seen nor heard anything yesterday or so far today about the I-66 tolls. People’s initial outrage couldn’t last as their attention moved on to other things, I guess.

Especially when most of the people expressing outrage weren't impacted whatsoever by the tolls.  Some of them probably don't even live in the region, but still keep tabs on the news in the area.

This comment really hits home this morning: Last night my wife’s brother called. He lives near Miami. She answered the phone, but it was pretty clear that he had seen a news report about the I-66 tolls and he was outraged, said “they” should ban “that sort of thing.” My wife tried to give him facts, but he’d already made up his mind. Maybe if we see him next week when we’re in Florida I can explain it better if it comes up. But seriously, why the heck is someone near Miami, who has not been to the DC area since September 2009, worried at all about the I-66 tolls?!

Because FDOT and Florida's Turnpike Enterprise might decide to do the same thing with the I-95 and I-595 HOT lanes in Miami? "Well hell, it works for Virginia and we can use the money, so why the hell not?" Mind you, we're a state that's opening HOT lanes on a TOLL ROAD...
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Beltway

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Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
« Reply #362 on: December 14, 2017, 08:33:33 PM »

Seems the I-66 toll reached $44.00 for six minutes this morning due in part to slow traffic related to an incident on the Roosevelt Bridge. I’m sure the fact that it was for only six minutes will be omitted from most news reports.

The Drive-By News Media is just as bad in its reporting of local transportation issues.

It hoses bullets all over the place and then drives away and lets someone else clean up the mess that it made.
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Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
« Reply #363 on: December 15, 2017, 10:34:58 AM »

Given that the Silver Line has all but emasculated the Blue Line through DC (and at the existing Rosslyn station), I think there'd be some independent utility in building a 2nd Rosslyn metro station even without the new tunnel.  The Blue Line could then terminate at Rosslyn and more Blue, Orange, and Silver Line trains could be run, with the additional Orange and Silver Line trains replacing the Blue Line from Rosslyn into/thru DC.

Send money. Lots of money.  And don't expect to be seeing any money from MDOT to support this.
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Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
« Reply #364 on: December 15, 2017, 10:39:39 AM »

Funding just a 2nd Rosslyn station is well within the realm of possibility from NoVA funding sources.  And if Maryland doesn't want to fund extra Orange/Silver Line trains east of Stadium-Armory...well...that's their business.
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Beltway

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Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
« Reply #365 on: December 15, 2017, 11:38:18 AM »

Funding just a 2nd Rosslyn station is well within the realm of possibility from NoVA funding sources.  And if Maryland doesn't want to fund extra Orange/Silver Line trains east of Stadium-Armory...well...that's their business.

How to build "just a 2nd Rosslyn station"?  It needs to be connected to the route in D.C., and I don't think that could be done without building transition tunnels extending under the river.
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cpzilliacus

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Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
« Reply #366 on: December 15, 2017, 11:24:35 PM »

Funding just a 2nd Rosslyn station is well within the realm of possibility from NoVA funding sources.  And if Maryland doesn't want to fund extra Orange/Silver Line trains east of Stadium-Armory...well...that's their business.

Maryland did not contribute anything to the construction cost of Dulles Rail, but they are willing to (and do) Nfund operating losses from Maryland residents riding that line.

On the other hand, I don't think D.C. and Virginia contributed to the cost of building the Blue Line extension from Addison Road to Largo Town Center either. 
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Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
« Reply #367 on: December 17, 2017, 12:21:51 AM »

It only took less than two weeks for James Bacon to change his mind on I-66 HOT lanes:

Quote
Yikes, the I-66 Toll Hits $44, http://baconsrebellion.com/41540-2/
(15 December)
Quote
Politically, $44 tolls for a 10-mile ride will be hard to sustain.

Compare that to:

Quote
Actually, Travel Times Are Faster on I-66, VDOT Says, http://baconsrebellion.com/41474-2/
(8 December)

Quote
Hey, I-66 Whiners: Join a Friggin’ Carpool!, http://baconsrebellion.com/41450-2/
(5 December)

I don't know what capping the tolls would do, seeing as it would by definition make things less free-flowing. As unpopular as $44 max tolls may theoretically be, I doubt many people are paying them, so what political constituency is there? Besides, I'd rather pay $44 and get free-flowing conditions than have a $20 cap and still be stuck in traffic.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2017, 12:28:13 AM by AlexandriaVA »
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Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
« Reply #368 on: December 17, 2017, 07:53:03 AM »

I was under the impression that the $44 toll only existed for 6 minutes.
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1995hoo

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Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
« Reply #369 on: December 17, 2017, 08:49:16 AM »

I was under the impression that the $44 toll only existed for 6 minutes.


You are correct. The same was true of the $40 and $34.50 tolls the previous week.
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—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
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"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

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Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
« Reply #370 on: December 17, 2017, 09:16:58 AM »


I don't know what capping the tolls would do, seeing as it would by definition make things less free-flowing. As unpopular as $44 max tolls may theoretically be, I doubt many people are paying them, so what political constituency is there? Besides, I'd rather pay $44 and get free-flowing conditions than have a $20 cap and still be stuck in traffic.

IIRC only 39 people paid the highest toll on the first day it was up and running.

The point of the extremely high tolls at the busiest times is to keep people out and the traffic flowing.  For the few people who are choosing to pay the highest tolls, they will learn the pattern of how well 66 moves at the given toll levels and will make educated decisions about cost vs. reward of riding 66.
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Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
« Reply #371 on: December 17, 2017, 12:04:29 PM »


I don't know what capping the tolls would do, seeing as it would by definition make things less free-flowing. As unpopular as $44 max tolls may theoretically be, I doubt many people are paying them, so what political constituency is there? Besides, I'd rather pay $44 and get free-flowing conditions than have a $20 cap and still be stuck in traffic.

IIRC only 39 people paid the highest toll on the first day it was up and running.

The point of the extremely high tolls at the busiest times is to keep people out and the traffic flowing.  For the few people who are choosing to pay the highest tolls, they will learn the pattern of how well 66 moves at the given toll levels and will make educated decisions about cost vs. reward of riding 66.
If only 39 cars paid the highest tolls, I am sure the toll lane had more capactiy than that.  Toll was set too high.
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Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
« Reply #372 on: December 17, 2017, 12:30:14 PM »


I don't know what capping the tolls would do, seeing as it would by definition make things less free-flowing. As unpopular as $44 max tolls may theoretically be, I doubt many people are paying them, so what political constituency is there? Besides, I'd rather pay $44 and get free-flowing conditions than have a $20 cap and still be stuck in traffic.

IIRC only 39 people paid the highest toll on the first day it was up and running.

The point of the extremely high tolls at the busiest times is to keep people out and the traffic flowing.  For the few people who are choosing to pay the highest tolls, they will learn the pattern of how well 66 moves at the given toll levels and will make educated decisions about cost vs. reward of riding 66.
If only 39 cars paid the highest tolls, I am sure the toll lane had more capactiy than that.  Toll was set too high.

They paid tolls at the peak of traffic on the two to four toll lanes in their direction. The peak didn't last long, but doesn't demonstrate that there was unused capacity during those few minutes.

Keep in mind that HOV-2+ users were in those lanes as well, toll-free.

With more experience, users will figure out when the tolls will be highest, and avoid those times if they can.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2017, 01:58:56 PM by oscar »
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Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
« Reply #373 on: December 17, 2017, 01:33:06 PM »

Left unsaid in many discussions is the fact that I-66 was probably always at/over capacity during rush hour, so the toll in those cases should absolutely be a divide-by-zero asymptotic situation where the price is tending towards infinity, or some other god-awfully high number, like $100 or whatever, essentially saying "there is no more room on this road, do not drive on it".
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Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
« Reply #374 on: December 17, 2017, 04:29:41 PM »


If only 39 cars paid the highest tolls, I am sure the toll lane had more capactiy than that.  Toll was set too high.

If only 39 cars paid the highest tolls, I am sure the toll lane maintained the capacity that it had.  Toll was set more appropriately.

Also in a way the 39 cars thing is mis-interpreted, as there were additional cars that paid the maximum toll from wherever they entered during that same time period.  Just those who entered west of the beltway got the full $34.50.

The Beltway actually had the opposite problem when it first started its toll lanes.  A $13 toll would occur and the lanes weren't free-flowing.  They actually adjusted the tolls upward and while it is now more expensive, it is still free flowing and 20 minutes faster on most days than the regular beltway lanes.
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