Francis Scott Key Bridge (I-695) complete collapse after large ship hits it

[J N Winkler]

I would say that a ferry is just not worth doing at all, even if greatly reduced capacity were accepted in exchange for quick setup, simply because three fixed links already exist and the greatest cost in detour time and distance applies only to a narrow category of vehicles (hazmat carriers).

The Crosby-Lynchburg ferry in Texas and the Kampsville Ferry in Illinois are both examples of inland waterway ferries with relatively light requirements in terms of craft and docking facilities.  However, they both serve relatively lightly travelled two-lane roads.  For a freeway with an AADT of over 30,000 VPD, such a low-capacity connection might actually function more as an attractive nuisance.  Moreover, compared to Burnet Bay, the body of water the Crosby-Lynchburg ferry crosses, the lower Patapsco estuary is a less sheltered location and thus might be more vulnerable to bad weather.

[roadman65]

I was just thinking. Now the control city of Dundalk on I-97 for I-695 EB now needs to be covered up ( removed) and the EB ramp to I-695 at MD 10's northern terminus ( providing they reopen it to the last exit before the bridge) will have to be replaced completely as to sign it for I-695 East without a control point would not be feasible there. 

Plus Key Bridge references from I-95 to Dundalk will all have to be greened out as well.

[kalvado]

How about a temporary ferry across the gap? Wouldn't that be feasible to handle cross river traffic and commerce?

Dear heavens, no.  There are no docks for a ferry.  There are no readily available ferry ships that can handle the mixed passenger/freight traffic.  The volume on I-695 was overwhelming for a ferry.  Then, you have the harbor traffic to deal with.

Might have even already been pointed out in this thread, but lots of discussion out there on the Interwebs about this and why it's infeasible for this location.

A more general question... How ferries do deal with hazmat vehicles? Quite a few comments about hazmat implications of this bridge are upthread.

[Brandon]

I would say that a ferry is just not worth doing at all, even if greatly reduced capacity were accepted in exchange for quick setup, simply because three fixed links already exist and the greatest cost in detour time and distance applies only to a narrow category of vehicles (hazmat carriers).

The Crosby-Lynchburg ferry in Texas and the Kampsville Ferry in Illinois are both examples of inland waterway ferries with relatively light requirements in terms of craft and docking facilities.  However, they both serve relatively lightly travelled two-lane roads.  For a freeway with an AADT of over 30,000 VPD, such a low-capacity connection might actually function more as an attractive nuisance.  Moreover, compared to Burnet Bay, the body of water the Crosby-Lynchburg ferry crosses, the lower Patapsco estuary is a less sheltered location and thus might be more vulnerable to bad weather.

To use a comparison, the Mackinac Straits Ferry, prior to the building of the Mackinac Bridge, was stressed at a mere 2,700 VPD, necessitating the building of the bridge.  And that was with five ferry boats carrying up to 500 vehicles together (average of 100 per ferry).  Waits of up to 10 hours during the summer months and deer season (November) were not uncommon.  So a series of ferries to carry 30,000 VPD here would be a non-starter.

[Rothman]

How about a temporary ferry across the gap? Wouldn't that be feasible to handle cross river traffic and commerce?

Dear heavens, no.  There are no docks for a ferry.  There are no readily available ferry ships that can handle the mixed passenger/freight traffic.  The volume on I-695 was overwhelming for a ferry.  Then, you have the harbor traffic to deal with.

Might have even already been pointed out in this thread, but lots of discussion out there on the Interwebs about this and why it's infeasible for this location.

A more general question... How ferries do deal with hazmat vehicles? Quite a few comments about hazmat implications of this bridge are upthread.

Depends on the ferry.  For Lake Erie ferries (e.g., to Kelleys Island), HAZMATs invoke a HUGE surcharge.

[roadman65]

Does the Cape May- Lewes Ferry allow Hazmats or even the Lake Michigan Badger allow them?

[TheOneKEA]

I was just thinking. Now the control city of Dundalk on I-97 for I-695 EB now needs to be covered up ( removed) and the EB ramp to I-695 at MD 10's northern terminus ( providing they reopen it to the last exit before the bridge) will have to be replaced completely as to sign it for I-695 East without a control point would not be feasible there. 

Plus Key Bridge references from I-95 to Dundalk will all have to be greened out as well.

I traveled the Beltway today and did not observe any temporary greenouts or patching of any of the BGSes or other colored overhead signage on the Outer Loop. I didn't observe any similar changes on I-97 North either. At least one of the VMSes on the Outer Loop south of I-70 were still in alert mode and announcing the closure of the Beltway east of Exit 1, while the VMS north of MD 648 on I-97 North had a closure message displayed only.

I am also curious to know if the highway will need to be re-inventoried, in order to change the zero milepost to a location that still exists and can be safely accessed for maintenance purposes. Have other DOTs re-inventoried highways that were severed by bridge collapses?

[Max Rockatansky]

Off forum our page has been covering the bridge collapse (mainly on Facebook).  There seems to be an insane sect of people who are convinced this was some domestic or foreign act of terrorism.  I'm not getting how any reasonable person would come to either of those conclusions.

Also popular on Facebook groups is an inordinate fear over something similar happening another bridge.  I'm also scratching my head at that notion given the last instance of a similar domestic incident to the Key Bridge collapse was in 1980 with the Sunshine Skyway Bridge.

[roadman65]

Off forum our page has been covering the bridge collapse (mainly on Facebook).  There seems to be an insane sect of people who are convinced this was some domestic or foreign act of terrorism.  I'm not getting how any reasonable person would come to either of those conclusions.

Also popular on Facebook groups is an inordinate fear over something similar happening another bridge.  I'm also scratching my head at that notion given the last instance of a similar domestic incident to the Key Bridge collapse was in 1980 with the Sunshine Skyway Bridge.

I've gotten the same as well. Some of my fellow religious believers are sending out click bait material saying that it was copied from a movie that Obama produced that he never did.  This one person who believes in the conspiracy it was planned said it was some cyber attack that caused the blackout on the boat.

I argued back, but got more click bait. 

However, every event gets conspiring theories including 9/11 where some think the World Trade Center wasn't brought down to the ground by the jet fuel but by planned bombs.  Then I heard another person theorize that Bush flew Osama Bin Laden's family out of the country the moment the terrorist attack of that fateful day happened.

You get em all from the Kennedy assasinations to the Neil Armstrong Moon Landing.


How about this different but related subject.
https://youtu.be/v-B3j83ozJk?si=uehEePegZfUfNR-Z

[freebrickproductions]

Also popular on Facebook groups is an inordinate fear over something similar happening another bridge.  I'm also scratching my head at that notion given the last instance of a similar domestic incident to the Key Bridge collapse was in 1980 with the Sunshine Skyway Bridge.

I mean, there was also technically the Big Bayou Canot derailment caused by a boat striking an unprotected bridge. Along with at least a couple of other other noteworthy incidents around the US of bridges struck by boats and collapsing as a result, even within the time since the Sunshine Skyway Bridge. A similar incident may not necessarily happen tomorrow, but starting some kind of program to better protect the bridges along navigable waters in/around the US would potentially help stop any future ones, even if they could potentially happen 44+ years into the future.

[roadman65]

Yes, bottom line is the piers need better protection and also times need to be kept up with the change in vessel designs too.

[jmacswimmer]

I am also curious to know if the highway will need to be re-inventoried, in order to change the zero milepost to a location that still exists and can be safely accessed for maintenance purposes. Have other DOTs re-inventoried highways that were severed by bridge collapses?

FWIW, the zero milepost is actually at the Curtis Creek drawbridge (even though the exit numbers reset at the Key Bridge).

[roadman65]

I think I-695 still uses sequential numbering if I'm not mistaken.

[triplemultiplex]

The time estimates in the article range form that 18 months to 7 years, but headscratchingly no one said the bridge would cost more than $1 Billion to rebuild.

I'll be shocked if it costs less than $5 billion and is finished by the end of the decade.
Hell, it'll probably cost a billion just to pull the destroyed bridge out of the harbor. 
Being somewhat facetious, but the general public needs to start wrapping their heads around the reality that this will be a mega-project that costs a buttload and takes years to design and build.

[roadman65]

The time estimates in the article range form that 18 months to 7 years, but headscratchingly no one said the bridge would cost more than $1 Billion to rebuild.

I'll be shocked if it costs less than $5 billion and is finished by the end of the decade.
Hell, it'll probably cost a billion just to pull the destroyed bridge out of the harbor. 
Being somewhat facetious, but the general public needs to start wrapping their heads around the reality that this will be a mega-project that costs a buttload and takes years to design and build.

Tell that to Joe Biden. I believe he thinks it can be done faster.

[1995hoo]

I am somewhat bemused to see this morning that Google Maps shows the bridge as "temporarily closed."

[roadman65]

I am somewhat bemused to see this morning that Google Maps shows the bridge as "temporarily closed."

I saw that also.  Plus it shows MD 173 across its Curtis Creek Drawbridge as closed as well as I-695.

[WillWeaverRVA]

I think I-695 still uses sequential numbering if I'm not mistaken.

It does, though the exit numbers are pretty close to the mileposts so it's probably not worth updating them.

Off forum our page has been covering the bridge collapse (mainly on Facebook).  There seems to be an insane sect of people who are convinced this was some domestic or foreign act of terrorism.  I'm not getting how any reasonable person would come to either of those conclusions.

For all the good it's capable of doing, social media is a cancer. There were idiotic conspiracy theories and faked videos spreading like wildfire within hours of the collision - "there were explosions", "it was Russia", "it was Ukraine", "it was Israel", "it was Palestine", "it was Biden", "it was the Flying Spaghetti Monster", etc.

[wanderer2575]

I am somewhat bemused to see this morning that Google Maps shows the bridge as "temporarily closed."

Nothing is more permanent than that which is called temporary.  Let's hope that's not the case here.

(Of course, the corollary is:  Nothing is more temporary than that which is called permanent.)

[1995hoo]

I am somewhat bemused to see this morning that Google Maps shows the bridge as "temporarily closed."

Nothing is more permanent than that which is called temporary.  Let's hope that's not the case here.

....

Heh. While it's not related to the bridge, there is this in Reston, Virginia. It's had that name since 1985. The explanation is that apparently the county required that all roads on a map of a proposed development have a name, so someone wrote "Temporary Road" as a placeholder in order to avoid any delays in submitting the paperwork, intending to update it later, and then nobody ever wanted to be bothered doing the work to rename it.

[epzik8]

How about a temporary ferry across the gap? Wouldn't that be feasible to handle cross river traffic and commerce?

Sounds good in theory, but I imagine that a ferry crossing would still be slower than detouring via the tunnels and wouldn't get much use. Not to mention that once the shipping channel is reopened, these ferries would conflict with cargo & cruise ship traffic.

On an unrelated note, I realized going thru my photos that I unintentionally got a distant photo of the Key Bridge back on New Year's Eve, where it snuck into the background of a photo I took of the I-895 K-Truss bridge shortly before the toll plaza & tunnel. Which would make this my most recent photo of the Key Bridge rather than 2022 as I previously thought.

This had to be the most essential view of the bridge besides on the bridge itself.

[MASTERNC]

The time estimates in the article range form that 18 months to 7 years, but headscratchingly no one said the bridge would cost more than $1 Billion to rebuild.

I'll be shocked if it costs less than $5 billion and is finished by the end of the decade.
Hell, it'll probably cost a billion just to pull the destroyed bridge out of the harbor. 
Being somewhat facetious, but the general public needs to start wrapping their heads around the reality that this will be a mega-project that costs a buttload and takes years to design and build.

Tell that to Joe Biden. I believe he thinks it can be done faster.

The key will be all the permitting.  Bloomberg mentioned that if he can waive or shorten a lot of the red tape you normally see with a project, that will be good for everyone (including himself).

[roadman65]

The time estimates in the article range form that 18 months to 7 years, but headscratchingly no one said the bridge would cost more than $1 Billion to rebuild.

I'll be shocked if it costs less than $5 billion and is finished by the end of the decade.
Hell, it'll probably cost a billion just to pull the destroyed bridge out of the harbor. 
Being somewhat facetious, but the general public needs to start wrapping their heads around the reality that this will be a mega-project that costs a buttload and takes years to design and build.

Tell that to Joe Biden. I believe he thinks it can be done faster.

The key will be all the permitting.  Bloomberg mentioned that if he can waive or shorten a lot of the red tape you normally see with a project, that will be good for everyone (including himself).

That would be nice. I wish we can get things done quickly.

[ixnay]

I think I-695 still uses sequential numbering if I'm not mistaken.

It does, though the exit numbers are pretty close to the mileposts so it's probably not worth updating them.

How about a temporary ferry across the gap? Wouldn't that be feasible to handle cross river traffic and commerce?

Sounds good in theory, but I imagine that a ferry crossing would still be slower than detouring via the tunnels and wouldn't get much use. Not to mention that once the shipping channel is reopened, these ferries would conflict with cargo & cruise ship traffic.

On an unrelated note, I realized going thru my photos that I unintentionally got a distant photo of the Key Bridge back on New Year's Eve, where it snuck into the background of a photo I took of the I-895 K-Truss bridge shortly before the toll plaza & tunnel. Which would make this my most recent photo of the Key Bridge rather than 2022 as I previously thought.

This had to be the most essential view of the bridge besides on the bridge itself.

Traffic reporters on WBAL radio tend to call that 895 K-truss the "steel bridge".

[1995hoo]

This had to be the most essential view of the bridge besides on the bridge itself.

It's been quite some time since I've been to Fort McHenry, but I thought the view of the bridge from the harbor side of the fort was pretty impressive (and also made me appreciate the wisdom of putting I-95 in the Fort McHenry Tunnel, rather than building a bridge as had been proposed). Google Street View doesn't really do it justice, but I can't find any pictures I may have taken—maybe it was long enough ago that I was using a film camera.

The fort is well worth the visit if you're in Baltimore and you have time. The movie in the visitor center is worth seeing just for the way it ends.