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The I-676

Started by 02 Park Ave, August 20, 2014, 05:07:42 PM

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seicer

Hell, might as well stop building bridges! Can you imagine what would happen if the I-35W bridge collapse due to terr... oh wait. Oops. That was our fault.


Duke87

Capping a depressed freeway works very well as a means of softening its aesthetic impact on an urban environment. But if you are coming at this from the perspective that cars themselves have a negative impact on the urban environment, it doesn't at all address the root concern since it still permits just as many people to keep driving.

This, it seems, is a key reason why proposals to cap a freeway are opposed. It comes across as a lipstick on a pig situation, trying to hide the bad evil freeway instead of getting the wrecking ball and killing it.
If you always take the same road, you will never see anything new.

PHLBOS

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 15, 2014, 06:16:52 AMI always thought the Big Dig cost disaster was a big reason behind the lack of cut-and-cover tunnels.
Cost was indeed the main reason and still is. 

The fore-mentioned security concerns from the Inquirer article I read earlier this year (I can't seem to presently locate it in the archives; such wouldn't be the first time an article was deleted - I should've saved the hard-copy so I could've at least referenced the date and the article's author) was either a recently added concern (which was why the capping project in Dallas went forward), erroneous (which might explain why it was pulled from the archives) or an exaggeration/red herring.

Every now & then, the Inky will have an another article or two regarding Penn's Landing or I-95; if I spot another reference or new info., I'll post it... unless someone else beats me to the punch.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 15, 2014, 06:16:52 AM
Besides, in Philly, anything that has been discussed about Penns Landing has resulted in a lot of hot air.  A lot of people blame 95, but really it's people seeing how well Baltimore's Inner Harbor has done and figured that we can easily copy it, which it ain't all that easy to do.
The main differences between Baltimore's Inner Harbor & Philly's Penn Landing are that:

1.  In Baltimore, several highways that would've intruded into the Inner Harbor area (or at least approached it) were never built (I-70 & 83 extensions come to mind).

2.  In Baltimore, there are no plans to cut/eliminate I-95 in that area; it runs near the area via the Fort McHenry Tunnel. 

3.  The soon-to-gone former-I-170 corridor was an isolated orphan that never connected to existing freeways on either end.

4.  Aside from the already-canned Crosstown/South St. Expressway (I-695); there were no other highway plans near or at the Penns Landing area.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

Alps

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 15, 2014, 06:16:52 AM
I always thought the Big Dig cost disaster was a big reason behind the lack of cut-and-cover tunnels. 

Big Dig was not cut and cover. Big Dig was tunneling beneath an existing highway while maintaining traffic. With the way the Alaskan Way is going now, it's a surprise anyone would ever attempt such a thing again. Cut and cover is easy.

jeffandnicole

Well, at least a portion of the Big Dig was cut and cover.

Regardless if it's easy, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of cut and cover tunneling projects out there currently.

Duke87

The trouble with cut and cover is that while it is the easiest way to build a tunnel it is also the way that is most disruptive to everything on the surface during construction. This makes implementing it in an urban area in modern times difficult because the community will always complain.

Not to mention that given the spaghetti of utilities that is under modern urban streets, sometimes it is simply easier to just bore underneath all that crap than to try and untangle/relocate it all to make way for the tunnel.
If you always take the same road, you will never see anything new.

PHLBOS

Quote from: Duke87 on December 17, 2014, 12:00:59 AMNot to mention that given the spaghetti of utilities that is under modern urban streets, sometimes it is simply easier to just bore underneath all that crap than to try and untangle/relocate it all to make way for the tunnel.
That was one of the first undertakings in Boston's Big Dig project; massive utility relocations.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

Pete from Boston


Quote from: PHLBOS on December 17, 2014, 08:24:52 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on December 17, 2014, 12:00:59 AMNot to mention that given the spaghetti of utilities that is under modern urban streets, sometimes it is simply easier to just bore underneath all that crap than to try and untangle/relocate it all to make way for the tunnel.
That was one of the first undertakings in Boston's Big Dig project; massive utility relocations.

One of the first undertakings was also to connect an elevated bridge to an elevated highway via a tunnel between them under a public square.  Connecting a depressed road to a bridge ought not be so hard   

PHLBOS

Quote from: Pete from Boston on December 17, 2014, 11:06:38 AM

Quote from: PHLBOS on December 17, 2014, 08:24:52 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on December 17, 2014, 12:00:59 AMNot to mention that given the spaghetti of utilities that is under modern urban streets, sometimes it is simply easier to just bore underneath all that crap than to try and untangle/relocate it all to make way for the tunnel.
That was one of the first undertakings in Boston's Big Dig project; massive utility relocations.

One of the first undertakings was also to connect an elevated bridge to an elevated highway via a tunnel between them under a public square.  Connecting a depressed road to a bridge ought not be so hard   
If you're referring to the work in City Square/Charlestown vicinity along US 1; that was actually a separate project (Central Artery North Area aka CANA) and not part of the overall Big Dig.  I was strictly referring to the actual Big Dig (aka Central Artery Tunnel) project itself.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

Pete from Boston


Quote from: PHLBOS on December 17, 2014, 01:34:53 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on December 17, 2014, 11:06:38 AM

Quote from: PHLBOS on December 17, 2014, 08:24:52 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on December 17, 2014, 12:00:59 AMNot to mention that given the spaghetti of utilities that is under modern urban streets, sometimes it is simply easier to just bore underneath all that crap than to try and untangle/relocate it all to make way for the tunnel.
That was one of the first undertakings in Boston's Big Dig project; massive utility relocations.

One of the first undertakings was also to connect an elevated bridge to an elevated highway via a tunnel between them under a public square.  Connecting a depressed road to a bridge ought not be so hard   
If you're referring to the work in City Square/Charlestown vicinity along US 1; that was actually a separate project (Central Artery North Area aka CANA) and not part of the overall Big Dig.  I was strictly referring to the actual Big Dig (aka Central Artery Tunnel) project itself.

Not part of the Central Artery, but I'd lump it in with the overall "Big Dig."  Regardless, this is peripheral to my point. 

Zeffy

Quote from: Pete from Boston on December 17, 2014, 12:08:01 PM
One of the first undertakings was also to connect an elevated bridge to an elevated highway via a tunnel between them under a public square.  Connecting a depressed road to a bridge ought not be so hard

Quote from: Pete from Boston on December 17, 2014, 12:08:01 PM
One of the first undertakings was also to connect an elevated bridge to an elevated highway via a tunnel between them under a public square.  Connecting a depressed road to a bridge ought not be so hard   

Did you mean to double post the same thing?
Life would be boring if we didn't take an offramp every once in a while

A weird combination of a weather geek, roadgeek, car enthusiast and furry mixed with many anxiety related disorders

SteveG1988

Quote from: Zeffy on December 17, 2014, 01:46:55 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on December 17, 2014, 12:08:01 PM
One of the first undertakings was also to connect an elevated bridge to an elevated highway via a tunnel between them under a public square.  Connecting a depressed road to a bridge ought not be so hard

Quote from: Pete from Boston on December 17, 2014, 12:08:01 PM
One of the first undertakings was also to connect an elevated bridge to an elevated highway via a tunnel between them under a public square.  Connecting a depressed road to a bridge ought not be so hard   

Did you mean to double post the same thing?

closer you get to the bridge, the closer you get to the PATCO tunnels that run between the bridge and 8th and market (next stop after the bridge, not counting the closed Franklin Square Station)
Roads Clinched

I55,I82,I84(E&W)I88(W),I87(N),I81,I64,I74(W),I72,I57,I24,I65,I59,I12,I71,I77,I76(E&W),I70,I79,I85,I86(W),I27,I16,I97,I96,I43,I41,

Pete from Boston


Quote from: Zeffy on December 17, 2014, 01:46:55 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on December 17, 2014, 12:08:01 PM
One of the first undertakings was also to connect an elevated bridge to an elevated highway via a tunnel between them under a public square.  Connecting a depressed road to a bridge ought not be so hard

Quote from: Pete from Boston on December 17, 2014, 12:08:01 PM
One of the first undertakings was also to connect an elevated bridge to an elevated highway via a tunnel between them under a public square.  Connecting a depressed road to a bridge ought not be so hard   

Did you mean to double post the same thing?

Nope.  Tapatalk stutter.

AMLNet49

As mentioned earlier, the Big Dig was far more extensive than a cut-and-cover tunnel. You basically had an elevated freeway that had a bunch of exits connect via preexisting tunnels, and that actually turned into a tunnel at one end, replaced by an extension of that tunnel which also had to tie in with all of the preexisting tunnels and ground level ramps WHILE still maintaining the original elevated freeway and ramps that sat directly above the new tunnel. And I'm not sure if they count as part of the Big Dig, but you also built two brand new underwater tunnels (Fort Point Tunnel and Ted Williams Tunnel) WITH a spaghetti maze of associated underwater ramps connecting to them.

Pete from Boston


Quote from: AMLNet49 on December 21, 2014, 10:14:36 AM
As mentioned earlier, the Big Dig was far more extensive than a cut-and-cover tunnel. You basically had an elevated freeway that had a bunch of exits connect via preexisting tunnels, and that actually turned into a tunnel at one end, replaced by an extension of that tunnel which also had to tie in with all of the preexisting tunnels and ground level ramps WHILE still maintaining the original elevated freeway and ramps that sat directly above the new tunnel. And I'm not sure if they count as part of the Big Dig, but you also built two brand new underwater tunnels (Fort Point Tunnel and Ted Williams Tunnel) WITH a spaghetti maze of associated underwater ramps connecting to them.

Is this in response to my comment about the City Square tunnel?  My point was that even that relatively minor part of the Big Dig was more complicated than this 676 connection, and was still quite doable.

SteveG1988

Roads Clinched

I55,I82,I84(E&W)I88(W),I87(N),I81,I64,I74(W),I72,I57,I24,I65,I59,I12,I71,I77,I76(E&W),I70,I79,I85,I86(W),I27,I16,I97,I96,I43,I41,

PHLBOS

GPS does NOT equal GOD

odditude

Quote from: PHLBOS on December 29, 2014, 09:51:25 AMIs there a reason why you're posting a SEPTA map?
he was illustrating his previous comment about the PATCO tunnels at the base of the bridge.

SteveG1988

Quote from: odditude on December 29, 2014, 09:58:54 AM
Quote from: PHLBOS on December 29, 2014, 09:51:25 AMIs there a reason why you're posting a SEPTA map?
he was illustrating his previous comment about the PATCO tunnels at the base of the bridge.

Yes, i thought i typed something beneath it, but yeah, that entire area is a snarl of tunnels
Roads Clinched

I55,I82,I84(E&W)I88(W),I87(N),I81,I64,I74(W),I72,I57,I24,I65,I59,I12,I71,I77,I76(E&W),I70,I79,I85,I86(W),I27,I16,I97,I96,I43,I41,

Roadrunner75

Quote from: SteveG1988 on January 14, 2015, 03:32:13 PM
Quote from: odditude on December 29, 2014, 09:58:54 AM
Quote from: PHLBOS on December 29, 2014, 09:51:25 AMIs there a reason why you're posting a SEPTA map?
he was illustrating his previous comment about the PATCO tunnels at the base of the bridge.

Yes, i thought i typed something beneath it, but yeah, that entire area is a snarl of tunnels

SteveG1988

basically, underneath the franklin square is the PATCO station that has been potentially put on the "refurbish for use" program. Honestly, the best thing to do would be to leave it be, and use that money towards fixing I-76
Roads Clinched

I55,I82,I84(E&W)I88(W),I87(N),I81,I64,I74(W),I72,I57,I24,I65,I59,I12,I71,I77,I76(E&W),I70,I79,I85,I86(W),I27,I16,I97,I96,I43,I41,

Chris19001

Would you not like the Franklin Square station reopened, or do you doubt that PATCO will ever stop the studies to do so??

SteveG1988

Quote from: Chris19001 on January 15, 2015, 01:12:18 PM
Would you not like the Franklin Square station reopened, or do you doubt that PATCO will ever stop the studies to do so??

I meant use the money that could be spent to fix the road configuration and put it towards making i-76 better. I want that station reopened.
Roads Clinched

I55,I82,I84(E&W)I88(W),I87(N),I81,I64,I74(W),I72,I57,I24,I65,I59,I12,I71,I77,I76(E&W),I70,I79,I85,I86(W),I27,I16,I97,I96,I43,I41,



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