Michigan Notes

[JoePCool14]

I've been to Gaylord once back in 2020 to see family. I'd vote for either a DDI or a SPUI, probably leaning towards a DDI in order to reduce costs. Most traffic is likely interfacing with I-75, either exiting or entering. A DDI would cut down on the number of phases while not hampering through traffic on M-32 very much.

Roundabouts would be okay, but I think would be unnecessary. It would be interesting to see how roundabout costs compare to the other two. I would expect higher capital, lower long-term.

Dickerson Road on the west side makes things more challenging through. You can't have a signalized intersection that close to a DDI. That might push the other alternatives up a bit.

[Terry Shea]

M-20 (Pickard Rd) is a real mess right now between US-127 and Mission St.  Construction and lane closures will be happening for the next year and a half.

[JREwing78]

MDOT is planning replace the I-75 bridges over M-32 beginning in 2025. They are also considering modifying the interchange design as either a DDI, SPUI or traditional interchange with roundabouts.

That M-32 corridor west of the interchange has exploded in retail growth in recent years. I think it's safe to say MDOT never anticipated that; the interchange at exit 279 seemed intended for heavier traffic than the one at exit 282. Definitely the stretch of old 27 into downtown Gaylord is older retail development.

At exit 282, a DDI would probably be optimal and capable of whatever traffic flows Gaylord will throw at it. I think a SPUI would be a bit harder to navigate, particularly in poor conditions. I think the fine folks in Gaylord would serve the MDOT director's head on a platter if they seriously considered a dogbone here; it's too busy with incompetent drivers pretending they're "Big Rig" drivers in their mobile McMansions.

Fun fact: almost a year ago (May 20th, 2022) a EF3 tornado touched down in Gaylord just west and north of this interchange, and the cleanup is still in progress. I'm sure this fact will come up a lot as they negotiate construction timelines and determine how to handle traffic. A complete shutdown of the interchange here would be a non-starter.

[afguy]

Pretty cool article in today's Free Press about freeway construction in Detroit...
Free Press Flashback: The life cycle of Detroit's freeways

Freeways cutting through American cities are an endangered species these days, as the movement picks up steam to remove urban highways and replace them with people-friendly features.

Even in Detroit, Interstate 375 downtown appears doomed, likely to be filled in and replaced by a grade-level boulevard.

It is difficult to imagine the Motor City without freeways: Two million residents crowding on streetcars and buses; city officials constantly tweaking streets to alleviate traffic jams. Driving from Dearborn to Grosse Pointe? Before the ditches, motorists had no alternative but to spend an hour or more in crosstown traffic.You might remember those days – if you're pushing 90. In 1942, the first freeway, tiny Davison, opened in the hope it would relieve traffic congestion in central Detroit.

The big push for freeways came after World War II. Rejecting streetcars and plans for subways, officials decided that making Detroit hospitable for automobiles would be, not surprisingly, a top priority. In 1944, a slick city publication told residents: "Of all the various projects now under consideration, perhaps none is of greater importance to Detroiters than the proposed system of expressways, wider and straighter streets, and the elimination of traffic bottlenecks."  

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2023/03/26/metro-detroit-freeways-construction/70039370007/

[wanderer2575]

MDOT is planning replace the I-75 bridges over M-32 beginning in 2025. They are also considering modifying the interchange design as either a DDI, SPUI or traditional interchange with roundabouts.

Beginning in fall 2025, MDOT plans to replace the northbound and southbound I-75 bridges over M-32 in Gaylord and reconstruct M-32 between Edelweiss Village Parkway and Wisconsin Avenue. These bridges were built in 1961, are currently in poor condition, and will need to be replaced. This offers an opportunity to consider alternatives for this interchange that will provide safe and efficient movement of people and goods through the Gaylord area and accommodate future increased traffic.

MDOT will consider replacing the current bridges in the current configuration but will also examine other possible configurations for the interchange, including a Diverging Diamond Interchange (DDI), a Single-Point Urban Interchange (SPUI), or a traditional interchange with roundabouts. These options will be examined for suitability, but no design has been selected yet. MDOT and its consultant will share these options with the community for feedback and suggestions.

https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/projects-studies/i-route-construction/i75-m32-interchange-otsego-county

As someone who made this exit the final gas stop on I-75 northbound before crossing the Bridge into the UP, this interchange needs a LOT of work, and I'm glad they are addressing it. We would have to wait through two or more light cycles to turn onto M-32 west, and if we weren't in the front of the line to turn left onto I-75 northbound, forget it. No matter which interchange configuration they go with, there has two be at least two left turn lanes in that area. Speaking of which...

Any of those interchange modifications will definitely affect the businesses immediately around the interchange. The southbound exit ramp feeds directly into Dickerson Road, which houses a Shell station and a few restaurants and hotels. The work on M-32 itself between the roads listed should help with that.

Dickerson Road and business entrances wouldn't be altered too much with a SPUI or a DDI, but I think a dogbone would be too invasive.

A SPUI is three-phase; a DDI is two-phase.  With a traffic signal located very close to each side of the interchange, I think a DDI would better serve traffic flow.  It would also better serve a high volume of left-turn traffic.

[Terry Shea]

Does anybody know why the NB (not sure if the SB exit is closed or not) US-23 exit ramp off from I-75 Exit 188 is currently closed?  It sounds like bad planning considering that the exit was closed for most of last year to install the roundabout @ US-23/M-13, so why wasn't whatever work they're now doing, done then?  And then why did MDOT not post detour information until north of the previous exit (exit 181)?  There is a casino and other attractions located between the 2 exits, and while exiting at 181 is definitely shorter, many people, including myself, prefer the longer route which has 9 more miles of freeway and not having to slow down and stop for traffic lights in Pinconning.  With the detour notice posted after exit 181, one now has to go to exit 190 and circle back through the town of Standish.  This reminds me of last year when MDOT screwed up signage of apparently every posted freeway detour in the Lansing area: I-69, I-496 and so on.  Can't they get anything right?

[Flint1979]

Does anybody know why the NB (not sure if the SB exit is closed or not) US-23 exit ramp off from I-75 Exit 188 is currently closed?  It sounds like bad planning considering that the exit was closed for most of last year to install the roundabout @ US-23/M-13, so why wasn't whatever work they're now doing, done then?  And then why did MDOT not post detour information until north of the previous exit (exit 181)?  There is a casino and other attractions located between the 2 exits, and while exiting at 181 is definitely shorter, many people, including myself, prefer the longer route which has 9 more miles of freeway and not having to slow down and stop for traffic lights in Pinconning.  With the detour notice posted after exit 181, one now has to go to exit 190 and circle back through the town of Standish.  This reminds me of last year when MDOT screwed up signage of apparently every posted freeway detour in the Lansing area: I-69, I-496 and so on.  Can't they get anything right?

Probably because they are repaving it and rebuilding 19 bridges, they are repaving it to the north end of Standish. Going south you can us it though I'm thinking maybe they are finishing up northbound then going to do southbound after. I wouldn't go through Pinconning itself to get to the casino though, take exit 181 then make a left at Mackinaw Road, go up one mile to Cody Estey Road and make a right, then take a left at Shore Road and a right at Worth Road. The only traffic light you'd deal with is at M-13 and Cody Estey.

[wanderer2575]

Does anybody know why the NB (not sure if the SB exit is closed or not) US-23 exit ramp off from I-75 Exit 188 is currently closed?  It sounds like bad planning considering that the exit was closed for most of last year to install the roundabout @ US-23/M-13, so why wasn't whatever work they're now doing, done then?  And then why did MDOT not post detour information until north of the previous exit (exit 181)?  There is a casino and other attractions located between the 2 exits, and while exiting at 181 is definitely shorter, many people, including myself, prefer the longer route which has 9 more miles of freeway and not having to slow down and stop for traffic lights in Pinconning.  With the detour notice posted after exit 181, one now has to go to exit 190 and circle back through the town of Standish.  This reminds me of last year when MDOT screwed up signage of apparently every posted freeway detour in the Lansing area: I-69, I-496 and so on.  Can't they get anything right?

You didn't say when you went through there, but right now the MI Drive map shows both 188 exits open with a lane closure in each direction at Melita Road (just east of I-75).  Maybe there was a short-term closure for bridge demolition or some such.  I don't remember if this is one of the bridges with a recent truck hit.

[Terry Shea]

Does anybody know why the NB (not sure if the SB exit is closed or not) US-23 exit ramp off from I-75 Exit 188 is currently closed?  It sounds like bad planning considering that the exit was closed for most of last year to install the roundabout @ US-23/M-13, so why wasn't whatever work they're now doing, done then?  And then why did MDOT not post detour information until north of the previous exit (exit 181)?  There is a casino and other attractions located between the 2 exits, and while exiting at 181 is definitely shorter, many people, including myself, prefer the longer route which has 9 more miles of freeway and not having to slow down and stop for traffic lights in Pinconning.  With the detour notice posted after exit 181, one now has to go to exit 190 and circle back through the town of Standish.  This reminds me of last year when MDOT screwed up signage of apparently every posted freeway detour in the Lansing area: I-69, I-496 and so on.  Can't they get anything right?

You didn't say when you went through there, but right now the MI Drive map shows both 188 exits open with a lane closure in each direction at Melita Road (just east of I-75).  Maybe there was a short-term closure for bridge demolition or some such.  I don't remember if this is one of the bridges with a recent truck hit.

It was closed on Sunday, March 26 when I went through there.  No reason they can't put a warning before exit 181 so people can exit there.

[Terry Shea]

Does anybody know why the NB (not sure if the SB exit is closed or not) US-23 exit ramp off from I-75 Exit 188 is currently closed?  It sounds like bad planning considering that the exit was closed for most of last year to install the roundabout @ US-23/M-13, so why wasn't whatever work they're now doing, done then?  And then why did MDOT not post detour information until north of the previous exit (exit 181)?  There is a casino and other attractions located between the 2 exits, and while exiting at 181 is definitely shorter, many people, including myself, prefer the longer route which has 9 more miles of freeway and not having to slow down and stop for traffic lights in Pinconning.  With the detour notice posted after exit 181, one now has to go to exit 190 and circle back through the town of Standish.  This reminds me of last year when MDOT screwed up signage of apparently every posted freeway detour in the Lansing area: I-69, I-496 and so on.  Can't they get anything right?

You didn't say when you went through there, but right now the MI Drive map shows both 188 exits open with a lane closure in each direction at Melita Road (just east of I-75).  Maybe there was a short-term closure for bridge demolition or some such.  I don't remember if this is one of the bridges with a recent truck hit.

Does anybody know why the NB (not sure if the SB exit is closed or not) US-23 exit ramp off from I-75 Exit 188 is currently closed?  It sounds like bad planning considering that the exit was closed for most of last year to install the roundabout @ US-23/M-13, so why wasn't whatever work they're now doing, done then?  And then why did MDOT not post detour information until north of the previous exit (exit 181)?  There is a casino and other attractions located between the 2 exits, and while exiting at 181 is definitely shorter, many people, including myself, prefer the longer route which has 9 more miles of freeway and not having to slow down and stop for traffic lights in Pinconning.  With the detour notice posted after exit 181, one now has to go to exit 190 and circle back through the town of Standish.  This reminds me of last year when MDOT screwed up signage of apparently every posted freeway detour in the Lansing area: I-69, I-496 and so on.  Can't they get anything right?

Probably because they are repaving it and rebuilding 19 bridges, they are repaving it to the north end of Standish. Going south you can us it though I'm thinking maybe they are finishing up northbound then going to do southbound after. I wouldn't go through Pinconning itself to get to the casino though, take exit 181 then make a left at Mackinaw Road, go up one mile to Cody Estey Road and make a right, then take a left at Shore Road and a right at Worth Road. The only traffic light you'd deal with is at M-13 and Cody Estey.

I just don't understand why they couldn't do it last year when they already had that exit closed down for several months.  And yeah, that's the route I take when I exit at 181, but there are probably a lot of people that don't know how to avoid Pinconning.

[Flint1979]

Does anybody know why the NB (not sure if the SB exit is closed or not) US-23 exit ramp off from I-75 Exit 188 is currently closed?  It sounds like bad planning considering that the exit was closed for most of last year to install the roundabout @ US-23/M-13, so why wasn't whatever work they're now doing, done then?  And then why did MDOT not post detour information until north of the previous exit (exit 181)?  There is a casino and other attractions located between the 2 exits, and while exiting at 181 is definitely shorter, many people, including myself, prefer the longer route which has 9 more miles of freeway and not having to slow down and stop for traffic lights in Pinconning.  With the detour notice posted after exit 181, one now has to go to exit 190 and circle back through the town of Standish.  This reminds me of last year when MDOT screwed up signage of apparently every posted freeway detour in the Lansing area: I-69, I-496 and so on.  Can't they get anything right?

You didn't say when you went through there, but right now the MI Drive map shows both 188 exits open with a lane closure in each direction at Melita Road (just east of I-75).  Maybe there was a short-term closure for bridge demolition or some such.  I don't remember if this is one of the bridges with a recent truck hit.

Does anybody know why the NB (not sure if the SB exit is closed or not) US-23 exit ramp off from I-75 Exit 188 is currently closed?  It sounds like bad planning considering that the exit was closed for most of last year to install the roundabout @ US-23/M-13, so why wasn't whatever work they're now doing, done then?  And then why did MDOT not post detour information until north of the previous exit (exit 181)?  There is a casino and other attractions located between the 2 exits, and while exiting at 181 is definitely shorter, many people, including myself, prefer the longer route which has 9 more miles of freeway and not having to slow down and stop for traffic lights in Pinconning.  With the detour notice posted after exit 181, one now has to go to exit 190 and circle back through the town of Standish.  This reminds me of last year when MDOT screwed up signage of apparently every posted freeway detour in the Lansing area: I-69, I-496 and so on.  Can't they get anything right?

Probably because they are repaving it and rebuilding 19 bridges, they are repaving it to the north end of Standish. Going south you can us it though I'm thinking maybe they are finishing up northbound then going to do southbound after. I wouldn't go through Pinconning itself to get to the casino though, take exit 181 then make a left at Mackinaw Road, go up one mile to Cody Estey Road and make a right, then take a left at Shore Road and a right at Worth Road. The only traffic light you'd deal with is at M-13 and Cody Estey.

I just don't understand why they couldn't do it last year when they already had that exit closed down for several months.  And yeah, that's the route I take when I exit at 181, but there are probably a lot of people that don't know how to avoid Pinconning.

Same thing a few years ago with I-475 in Genesee County. They had northbound closed for an entire winter.

[afguy]

Beginning in late spring, MDOT will be kicking off a 3-year, $160 million resurfacing project along I-75 from M-15 to the Oakland/Genessee County Line. I honestly wish they would remove some of the remaining left lane exits, such as the ones at Exit 93 and 106.

The multi-year project includes three years of construction and will include milling and resurfacing three lanes of I-75 in both directions, reconstruction of shoulders, culvert replacement, signs and guardrail replacement, and significant improvements on 11 bridges. The bridge work includes deck patching, overlays and some full deck replacements, painting, substructure repairs and superstructure repairs.

Beginning in May 2023 through late fall — temporary crossovers will be constructed along with bridge work and pavement repairs on northbound and southbound I-75 between M-15 and the Genesee County line.

2024 — milling and resurfacing of northbound I-75 from M-15 to the county line. There will be two lanes of northbound and southbound traffic sharing the existing southbound roadway.

2025 — milling and resurfacing of southbound I-75 from the Genesee County line to M-15. Traffic will share the existing northbound roadway.

2026 — removal of the temporary crossovers and remaining miscellaneous work.

https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2023/03/31/i-75resurfacingproject-m-15-geneseeco-line

[Flint1979]

New roundabout at M-13's northern terminus.

[Terry Shea]

The overpass made much more sense.

[sprjus4]

The overpass made much more sense.

If the overpass was deteriorating / in poor condition, and the traffic volumes are low, there's no reason to retain it.

[Flint1979]

The overpass made much more sense.

If the overpass was deteriorating / in poor condition, and the traffic volumes are low, there's no reason to retain it.

It was an old overpass that needed to be replaced so instead of replacing it they demolished it and built the roundabout.

Here's a GSV of the old setup:
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.948293,-83.9665289,3a,15y,0.93h,89.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_5Z22KQ_vVcn27ziWA8STA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

[Terry Shea]

The overpass made much more sense.

If the overpass was deteriorating / in poor condition, and the traffic volumes are low, there's no reason to retain it.

It was an old overpass that needed to be replaced so instead of replacing it they demolished it and built the roundabout.

Here's a GSV of the old setup:
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.948293,-83.9665289,3a,15y,0.93h,89.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_5Z22KQ_vVcn27ziWA8STA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Yeah, but now the roundabout needs to be replaced by sanity.

[Flint1979]

Not that this really has anything to do with the roundabout being there or the old overpass. I was thinking yesterday when I went and took those pictures that M-13 should have ended at the connector and US-23 split off I-75 at exit 164 and follow the current M-13 north to connect with current US-23 where the roundabout is. The connector between Exit 188 and M-13's northern terminus could have either been demolished and let nature take over or they could have built a two lane roadway between I-75 and the roundabout because to be honest that area really doesn't get that much traffic. You'll have people going up to Au Gres, Tawas, Oscoda, Alpena, Rogers City and so on but as we all know US-23 is not the quickest or shortest route between there and Mackinaw City that'd be I-75 but still I think US-23 should have even went up M-65's corridor and had another shoreline highway. Oh well though that will never happen but it makes more sense than what they have now IMO at least.

[Terry Shea]

Not that this really has anything to do with the roundabout being there or the old overpass. I was thinking yesterday when I went and took those pictures that M-13 should have ended at the connector and US-23 split off I-75 at exit 164 and follow the current M-13 north to connect with current US-23 where the roundabout is. The connector between Exit 188 and M-13's northern terminus could have either been demolished and let nature take over or they could have built a two lane roadway between I-75 and the roundabout because to be honest that area really doesn't get that much traffic. You'll have people going up to Au Gres, Tawas, Oscoda, Alpena, Rogers City and so on but as we all know US-23 is not the quickest or shortest route between there and Mackinaw City that'd be I-75 but still I think US-23 should have even went up M-65's corridor and had another shoreline highway. Oh well though that will never happen but it makes more sense than what they have now IMO at least.

A long business route would do.

[wanderer2575]

Not that this really has anything to do with the roundabout being there or the old overpass. I was thinking yesterday when I went and took those pictures that M-13 should have ended at the connector and US-23 split off I-75 at exit 164 and follow the current M-13 north to connect with current US-23 where the roundabout is. The connector between Exit 188 and M-13's northern terminus could have either been demolished and let nature take over or they could have built a two lane roadway between I-75 and the roundabout because to be honest that area really doesn't get that much traffic. You'll have people going up to Au Gres, Tawas, Oscoda, Alpena, Rogers City and so on but as we all know US-23 is not the quickest or shortest route between there and Mackinaw City that'd be I-75 but still I think US-23 should have even went up M-65's corridor and had another shoreline highway. Oh well though that will never happen but it makes more sense than what they have now IMO at least.

Splitting off US-23 at the Kawkawlin connector (exit 164) may make more sense now.  But I think that when I-75 was built, the connector at exit 188 was included because even then the plan was to continue a US-23 freeway some distance north, as evidenced by the westbound ghost lanes and the alignment of the (now removed) eastbound bridge at the US-23/M-13 interchange.  Demolishing the exit 188 connector now would be an unnecessary expenditure of limited funds.  But I can see MDOT considering it when the pavement becomes too poor to feasibly continue repair and/or the exit 188 bridges over I-75 reach the end of their service life.

As for swapping the routes of US-23 and M-65 ...  what's the point?  Because the US route should be the fastest route between two arbitrarily-selected towns?  It would seem a more plausible explanation that the US-23 designation was given to the more scenic highway (my guess; I don't know whether that really was the reason).

[JREwing78]

This is a whole lot of change-for-the-sake-of-change being thrown out there.

US-23 north of Standish didn't suddenly lose importance because MDOT figured (correctly) the existing interchange with M-13 was way overkill. I suspect the fine folks of Standish appreciate the reminder to folks that they're driving through a town and need to slow accordingly. Had MDOT finished the Standish bypass, I'd understand the keyboard warrior gnashing over a roundabout. But it never was and likely never will be, so no sense keeping it around. Since it's also (still) the through route to Oscoda and Alpena, which are at least geographically important (if not so much economically anymore), US-23 still justifies its existence despite it not being the quick way to Mackinac City.

It also seems silly to force US-23 to downgrade to a lesser highway for 30 miles of its length because "3 highway designations on 2 roads in the same area is just too damn many!" The tourist trade along M-13 probably appreciates fewer heavy trucks panic braking because they didn't see Bob and Midge trying to turn left into the cheese shop!

The M-13 connector gets enough traffic (low 5-figures) to justify remaining 4-lanes. That continues northward to Pinconning. While I would pursue 5-laning to reduce danger to left-turning traffic and to give some margin of error to wayward head-on traffic, it's fine as-is.

I'm not in a hurry to demote/remove US-23 from the map just because it shares 70 miles of pavement with I-75. It's an important enough route on its own.

[Flint1979]

A lot of flooding going on in the Saginaw and Thumb area.

[Terry Shea]

This is a whole lot of change-for-the-sake-of-change being thrown out there.

US-23 north of Standish didn't suddenly lose importance because MDOT figured (correctly) the existing interchange with M-13 was way overkill. I suspect the fine folks of Standish appreciate the reminder to folks that they're driving through a town and need to slow accordingly. Had MDOT finished the Standish bypass, I'd understand the keyboard warrior gnashing over a roundabout. But it never was and likely never will be, so no sense keeping it around. Since it's also (still) the through route to Oscoda and Alpena, which are at least geographically important (if not so much economically anymore), US-23 still justifies its existence despite it not being the quick way to Mackinac City.

It also seems silly to force US-23 to downgrade to a lesser highway for 30 miles of its length because "3 highway designations on 2 roads in the same area is just too damn many!" The tourist trade along M-13 probably appreciates fewer heavy trucks panic braking because they didn't see Bob and Midge trying to turn left into the cheese shop!

The M-13 connector gets enough traffic (low 5-figures) to justify remaining 4-lanes. That continues northward to Pinconning. While I would pursue 5-laning to reduce danger to left-turning traffic and to give some margin of error to wayward head-on traffic, it's fine as-is.

I'm not in a hurry to demote/remove US-23 from the map just because it shares 70 miles of pavement with I-75. It's an important enough route on its own.

MDOT circa 1960: "Let's waste taxpayer money by over planning and over building."
MDOT circa 2020: "Let's waste taxpayer money tearing down what we shouldn't have been planned/built in the first place.  We'll fool the taxpayers by including a merry-go-round to amuse them." 

[sprjus4]

^ Either tear it down or spend even more money rehabilitating it. Tearing down was the better option.

[KelleyCook]

MDOT sent out a survey for potential fixes to the I-96 / M-39 four level stack.

https://metroquestsurvey.com/5uj2