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Expanded Kansas/Oklahoma/Texas toll transponder interoperability now here!

Started by route56, May 18, 2017, 04:16:28 PM

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J N Winkler

The actual position is more nuanced.  The protocol used in Kansas/Oklahoma/Texas is TransCore 6B/6C, which--compared to the current E-ZPass IAG protocol--eliminates a point of failure (batteries expiring) by using passive RFID technology.  But the actual reliability varies considerably from agency to agency within this interoperability zone.  I have a K-Tag and have had 100% accuracy on OTA and NTTA infrastructure (often under extremely unfavorable conditions), but numerous blown reads on the Kansas Turnpike.  In contradistinction, the I-Pass I use to access E-ZPass facilities has had 100% billing accuracy on the Illinois Tollway, the New York Thruway, and the Ohio Turnpike despite one read glitch (yellow light shown instead of blue at an Illinois Tollway toll gate, subsequently registered as a correct transponder read and not as a video toll; the account was nowhere near replenishment threshold).

Many years ago, when E-ZPass and the concept of interoperability in general were both still fairly new, there were problems with the New York Thruway rejecting good reads from vehicles that traversed toll gates in excess of the posted limit, and the Thruway then pursuing the drivers for toll evasion.  I suspect this (minus, at this point, pursuit for toll evasion) is what the Kansas Turnpike is now doing.  The Thruway now accepts reads regardless of vehicle speeds, and I suspect this is true throughout E-ZPassland.

This suggests to me that E-ZPass appears to be more robust mainly because the E-ZPass agencies are further along a learning curve in terms of debugging back-office billing procedures and issues with the technology underlying the protocol.  It will take time for the Kansas/Oklahoma/Texas zone to progress along the same curve and I think agencies that serve the lowest volumes will take the longest to catch up.  The Kansas Turnpike serves far less traffic than the Oklahoma turnpike system and any of the Texas regional toll authorities, so it doesn't surprise me I am seeing all of my problems in Kansas even though the transponder I have is native.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini


kphoger

Quote from: rte66man on May 04, 2019, 08:26:32 PM

Quote from: Phone_Harold on May 04, 2019, 03:36:24 PM
OTA announced expanded interoperability with all Texas toll roads on May 1st.

Here's the link:
https://spark.adobe.com/page/UiJ4aU6naiUyn/

The map on that page has red dots for the toll bridges at the Mexican border.  However, I suspect Pikepass will not work there.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

route56

Quote from: J N Winkler on May 06, 2019, 03:13:34 PM
I have a K-Tag and have had 100% accuracy on OTA and NTTA infrastructure (often under extremely unfavorable conditions), but numerous blown reads on the Kansas Turnpike.

I haven't had any issues with blown reads up here (though, I did go through the ORT lanes with a disabled K-TAG and racked up $80 in toll violations)
Peace to you, and... don't drive like my brother.

R.P.K.

J N Winkler

Quote from: route56 on May 07, 2019, 10:49:40 AMI haven't had any issues with blown reads up here (though, I did go through the ORT lanes with a disabled K-TAG and racked up $80 in toll violations)

Are you using a credit-card-sized sticker K-Tag or the newer strip-style sticker K-Tag?
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

route56

Quote from: J N Winkler on May 07, 2019, 12:03:43 PM
Are you using a credit-card-sized sticker K-Tag or the newer strip-style sticker K-Tag?

I have the larger square-shaped K-Tags for three of the four vehicles on my account. The fourth has a strip.

It was the vehicle with the new strip tag that I was driving when I received the toll violations, but like I said before, it wasn't a 'blown read.' That K-Tag had been disabled because the credit card on file had expired. At the time, my dad had a separate K-Tag account for this car - I was using it for a couple of days during some icy road conditions. After receiving the first two violations, we authorized the KTA to move the K-Tags and the remaining balance on his account to mine. I have had not indication of a "blown read" since then (I will point out that I do have the licence plates for all four vehicles on my account registered with the KTA.
Peace to you, and... don't drive like my brother.

R.P.K.

J N Winkler

Quote from: route56 on May 07, 2019, 01:47:55 PMI have the larger square-shaped K-Tags for three of the four vehicles on my account. The fourth has a strip.

It was the vehicle with the new strip tag that I was driving when I received the toll violations, but like I said before, it wasn't a 'blown read.' That K-Tag had been disabled because the credit card on file had expired. At the time, my dad had a separate K-Tag account for this car - I was using it for a couple of days during some icy road conditions. After receiving the first two violations, we authorized the KTA to move the K-Tags and the remaining balance on his account to mine. I have had not indication of a "blown read" since then (I will point out that I do have the licence plates for all four vehicles on my account registered with the KTA).

Thanks for this explanation.

My situation is that I am the only family member with a KTA account but have active credit-card-sized transponders for all three of the family cars.  Only one of the three transponders is actually installed and in use, next to an I-Pass under the inside rearview mirror mount.

Before KTA implemented video enforcement and permanent gates-up at certain toll plazas, I routinely had blown reads where the gate would stay down.  This has happened with transponder held up to windshield and transponder actually stuck to the windshield, with and without the I-Pass.  Now that KTA has video enforcement and gates permanently up at certain toll plazas, I am now dealing with misattribution of entry and exit point (e.g., billing says I entered at K-254/K-196/El Dorado when GPS log for the same journey proves I entered at I-135/I-235/South Wichita).  All of this has been with an account that has remained continuously in good standing (no credit card expiration, etc.) and with the license plate registered soon after KTA implemented video enforcement.  (I believe they started sending out violation notices before they made self-registration possible on the website.  My license plate is registered because a blown read resulted in a violation notice and I took that to KTA HQ to express my displeasure about their failure to read a correctly installed K-Tag.  The consumer service representative I talked to asked me for the plate number and typed it in as part of that visit; I did not self-register.)

AFAICT, KTA is nowhere near close to getting out of their own way.  I am still getting "Clean up your account" emails because I have two activated transponders that are not installed in cars and do not have corresponding license plate registrations.  I am not going to ask for them to be deactivated because if I put one of them in one of the two cars and register the plate, I want it to be available for use right away.  And I am not going to register plates for the other two cars because if it is taken through a cash lane that has video enforcement, I don't want to be double-billed (I don't trust KTA not to perform plate lookup on a vehicle that pays cash).

I suspect most of my problems would go away if KTA accepted good reads from vehicles traversing toll gates at speeds in excess of the limit, but I am not sure about the best way to lobby for this to happen.  I can see KTA management taking the view that if you don't observe the speed limit going through the toll gate, you deserve all the billing aggravation you get.  I believe that separating billing from speed enforcement is an operationally more expedient and in general more grown-up approach, but it wouldn't surprise me if it took a public outcry for the New York Thruway to abandon its former practice of discarding good reads from speeding vehicles.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

Duke87

Quote from: J N Winkler on May 07, 2019, 02:56:30 PM
it wouldn't surprise me if it took a public outcry for the New York Thruway to abandon its former practice of discarding good reads from speeding vehicles.

That is exactly what it took. NYSTA was actively harassing customers who went through E-Zpass lanes "too fast", they agreed to stop doing this after the press made a stink about it. This was over 15 years ago at this point.

A key difference is that NYSTA openly admitted they were harassing people about speed - one of the things they were doing was sending people nastygrams in the mail saying "you were caught exceeding the speed limit through one of our toll plazas, keep doing this and your E-Zpass account may be suspended"

KTA hasn't done *that* and any accusations that they're deliberately letting reads blow for people who exceed the speed limit are hearsay.
If you always take the same road, you will never see anything new.

Rothman

I believe NYSTA still issues speed violations related to going too fast through the E-ZPass lanes.  The threshold to trigger one may be higher than it once was, however.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: Duke87 on May 09, 2019, 01:30:32 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 07, 2019, 02:56:30 PM
it wouldn't surprise me if it took a public outcry for the New York Thruway to abandon its former practice of discarding good reads from speeding vehicles.

That is exactly what it took. NYSTA was actively harassing customers who went through E-Zpass lanes "too fast", they agreed to stop doing this after the press made a stink about it. This was over 15 years ago at this point.

A key difference is that NYSTA openly admitted they were harassing people about speed - one of the things they were doing was sending people nastygrams in the mail saying "you were caught exceeding the speed limit through one of our toll plazas, keep doing this and your E-Zpass account may be suspended"

KTA hasn't done *that* and any accusations that they're deliberately letting reads blow for people who exceed the speed limit are hearsay.

NJ was doing this too.

That said, it wasn't much of a nasty gram. NJ would only send it out if you were going 31+ in a 5 mph zone. In other words, you're caught going 26 over the limit, and you're given a simple letter. Not really that big of a deal. Way better than a 26 mph over the limit ticket!

The EZ Pass limit thru the traditional lanes are now 15 mph, and I don't think they've sent letters for years.

J N Winkler

Quote from: Duke87 on May 09, 2019, 01:30:32 AMKTA hasn't done *that* and any accusations that they're deliberately letting reads blow for people who exceed the speed limit are hearsay.

My thanks to you and to Jeffandnicole for sharing local perspectives on how this issue played out in New York and New Jersey.

At this stage, it is not even hearsay that KTA is performing backdoor speed enforcement in this way.  Other possible explanations I can't rule out include the use of substandard or miscalibrated reader equipment.  I do have GPS logs for all toll plaza transits with a K-Tag, so at some point I want to check what speed characteristics are associated with billing errors, failed gate raises, violation letters and other irregularities.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

kphoger

Does anyone know how it works to tow a U-Haul trailer behind a vehicle with a toll sticker?

If I call the toll agency and change the number of axles associated with my tag, will I simply be charged the higher rate apropriately at each toll booth?

Or will U-Haul still get a bill for a toll violation on the trailer regardless, because that's where the license plate is registered?
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Great Lakes Roads


Ned Weasel

Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on May 30, 2021, 01:12:17 AM
Speaking of which, the KTA awarded its first contract to convert the toll collection to AET.

https://www.wibw.com/2021/05/29/kta-awards-first-cashless-toll-construction-contract/

I'm confused.  Is this a system-wide overhaul, or just a partial conversion?  Have they even decided how system-wide conversion is going to work?  Are they going to keep the ticket-based system or convert to an open/point system?  The "Cashless Tolling" part of the KTA's website only talks about Exit 53A, which we've already discussed at great length on this forum.  https://www.ksturnpike.com/cashless-tolling
"I was raised by a cup of coffee." - Strong Bad imitating Homsar

Disclaimer: Views I express are my own and don't reflect any employer or associated entity.

J N Winkler

Quote from: stridentweasel on May 31, 2021, 08:58:34 AMI'm confused.  Is this a system-wide overhaul, or just a partial conversion?  Have they even decided how system-wide conversion is going to work?  Are they going to keep the ticket-based system or convert to an open/point system?  The "Cashless Tolling" part of the KTA's website only talks about Exit 53A, which we've already discussed at great length on this forum.  https://www.ksturnpike.com/cashless-tolling

I don't think it is possible to tell from the materials that are publicly available at this point.  However, the plans for Contract 7788 call for tolling infrastructure (overhead signbridges, equipment cabinets beside the road, and what appear to be loop detectors in the pavement) to be built at multiple locations on the mainline.  This suggests to me that KTA is contemplating a conversion to barrier tolling.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

vdeane

The article made it sound like it would be the section south of Wichita, though I'm not sure how one would do a partial conversion of a ticket system without constructing temporary booths.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Scott5114

I kind of hope they don't. Ticket systems are a lot easier to understand and less prone to abuse than barrier systems and whatever you'd call the abomination of design that is the Oklahoma turnpike system.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

sprjus4

I don't see any issues with a barrier system if toll gantries are adequately spaced between each exit. That way motorists can get on and off the highway without having to worry about tolls, those would be automatically collected on the mainline.

J N Winkler

Quote from: vdeane on May 31, 2021, 09:04:35 PMThe article made it sound like it would be the section south of Wichita, though I'm not sure how one would do a partial conversion of a ticket system without constructing temporary booths.

Yes, the hardware is going in south of Wichita.  But this is billed as the first of several contracts, and I predict the others will cover segments further north.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

Great Lakes Roads

Quote from: J N Winkler on May 31, 2021, 09:59:49 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 31, 2021, 09:04:35 PMThe article made it sound like it would be the section south of Wichita, though I'm not sure how one would do a partial conversion of a ticket system without constructing temporary booths.

Yes, the hardware is going in south of Wichita.  But this is billed as the first of several contracts, and I predict the others will cover segments further north.

Found a link to the presentation on this project, and I'll run down the most important parts of the presentation:
-Adds 36 toll zones and reusing 6 toll zones for a total of 42 toll zones (21 each way)
-Convert the existing toll zones (Southern, East Topeka, and Eastern) with new tolling equipment and add 36 new mainline toll zones
-It will be a "closed" system with some zones operating in one direction only and other zones having adjacent toll zones to capture both directions
-Schedule on slide 20. Splits the contract into four different construction packages in three years (South of Wichita (2021), North of Wichita to Emporia (2022), East of Topeka to Kansas City (2022), and between Emporia and Topeka (2023))
-The ones east of Topeka on I-70 will have space for a future outside lane in each direction
-Scheduled to go live in January 2024 and will have a separate contract for demolition of all of the existing toll plazas on the system

Link: https://www.ksturnpike.com/assets/uploads/content-files/KTA_CashlessTollingPh2_Pre-Proposal_Mtg.pdf

CtrlAltDel

As I mentioned in another thread, I'll be traveling along the Kansas Turnpike in a few weeks. Does it still accept cash? Or should I prepare for other options?
Interstates clinched: 4, 57, 275 (IN-KY-OH), 465 (IN), 640 (TN), 985
State Interstates clinched: I-26 (TN), I-75 (GA), I-75 (KY), I-75 (TN), I-81 (WV), I-95 (NH)

ozarkman417

At times between tomorrow and Thursday, I'll be travelling on the Will Rogers, Turner, and Cimarron Turnpikes.  So, I'll ask a similar question to the one above: Which payment methods are available on these turnpikes, especially after COVID? I do not have any type of toll pass/transponder.

Scott5114

As far as I'm aware cash is still accepted throughout the Kansas and Oklahoma toll systems (except at Kansas Turnpike exit 53A).
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Ned Weasel

Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on May 31, 2021, 10:32:09 PM
Found a link to the presentation on this project, and I'll run down the most important parts of the presentation:
-Adds 36 toll zones and reusing 6 toll zones for a total of 42 toll zones (21 each way)
-Convert the existing toll zones (Southern, East Topeka, and Eastern) with new tolling equipment and add 36 new mainline toll zones
-It will be a "closed" system with some zones operating in one direction only and other zones having adjacent toll zones to capture both directions
-Schedule on slide 20. Splits the contract into four different construction packages in three years (South of Wichita (2021), North of Wichita to Emporia (2022), East of Topeka to Kansas City (2022), and between Emporia and Topeka (2023))
-The ones east of Topeka on I-70 will have space for a future outside lane in each direction
-Scheduled to go live in January 2024 and will have a separate contract for demolition of all of the existing toll plazas on the system

Link: https://www.ksturnpike.com/assets/uploads/content-files/KTA_CashlessTollingPh2_Pre-Proposal_Mtg.pdf

Thanks!  This is really interesting and informative!
"I was raised by a cup of coffee." - Strong Bad imitating Homsar

Disclaimer: Views I express are my own and don't reflect any employer or associated entity.

CtrlAltDel

Quote from: Scott5114 on May 31, 2021, 11:59:51 PM
As far as I'm aware cash is still accepted throughout the Kansas and Oklahoma toll systems (except at Kansas Turnpike exit 53A).

Excellent. Thank you.
Interstates clinched: 4, 57, 275 (IN-KY-OH), 465 (IN), 640 (TN), 985
State Interstates clinched: I-26 (TN), I-75 (GA), I-75 (KY), I-75 (TN), I-81 (WV), I-95 (NH)

kphoger

Quote from: kphoger on May 28, 2021, 04:43:19 PM
Does anyone know how it works to tow a U-Haul trailer behind a vehicle with a toll sticker?

If I call the toll agency and change the number of axles associated with my tag, will I simply be charged the higher rate apropriately at each toll booth?

Or will U-Haul still get a bill for a toll violation on the trailer regardless, because that's where the license plate is registered?

The reason for my necro-post has, I think, gone unanswered.  Does nobody have any experience with this type of situation?

In a few weeks, I'll be helping my friend move storage units, and we'll be taking both KTA and OTA turnpikes as part of our trip.  Shunpiking is a possibility, but it would add fairly significant time to a 700-mile one-way journey.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.



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