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Author Topic: Never-built highways of the Northwest  (Read 21169 times)

TEG24601

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Re: Never-built highways of the Northwest
« Reply #100 on: April 16, 2021, 05:45:14 PM »

Another fun one: a bridge to replace the Mukilteo-Clinton ferry, as studied in 1968 (and found to be infeasible even with tolling).

The most "feasible" route would go over Hat Island to Everett in order to avoid a 620-foot depth and instead only need to deal with a 500-foot drop. All at a cost of $160 million in 1968 dollars.



Since the Hat Island alternative crossed two channels, it would be likely that the portion over the deep/navigable channel would likely have included a suspension span across the depths (likely as lengthy as the Golden Gate or Verrazano ones to clear the 500'+ deep channel); the other longer bridge to the east could have been done as a simple viaduct with one raised section to clear the deeper portion for navigability purposes.  Nevertheless, it's better that no bridge was built; Whidbey certainly doesn't need any more casual traffic -- and the idea of a bridge today wouldn't likely get out of the starting blocks -- although the shorter high-clearance bridge might have been done today with a cable-stay span, a type that didn't see favor until around 1980.   But since the east end of the bridge would have been in Everett, there's a chance that it may have been considered to be a US 2 extension that would utilize the Port Townsend ferry to get to a US 101 terminus.

I would hardly say it is "better" that no bridge was built, it would provide a vastly superior routing to what is currently available. Building it today would have course fall prey to the usual problems with NIMBYs, special interest groups, activists, etc.


I totally understand why they wanted to build the bridges.  I could also get behind some of those ideas, back in the day.  However, today, with the Naval Base in Everett, there are few viable options, and the most logical one actually goes from Harbour Pointe to Possession Pt.


That being said, I like being isolated from the crap that goes on in Everett, I just wish I could convince my fellow Islanders, that we need to try to be more self sufficient, with adequate housing, employment, industry, and medical services.  And maybe a grocery store that is open until midnight, like they were 30 years ago.


Of course, on the north end, an alternate to Deception Pass is sorely needed.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2021, 05:47:49 PM by TEG24601 »
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jakeroot

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Re: Never-built highways of the Northwest
« Reply #101 on: May 06, 2021, 08:31:13 PM »

On the Valley Freeway (WA-167), there was originally planned to be an interchange with 32nd St in Sumner, but it was dropped in the 70s when funds ran short. There was an intersection here originally, before the freeway was finished in the late 80s. The Sumner interchange was later built slightly to the north, at 24th, and as a partial cloverleaf instead.

You can still see the outline of where the diamond interchange was to be built; the state still owns the land: https://goo.gl/maps/cKfPz24FDGYptRBA7

Here is the News Tribune article:


Original 32nd St Interchange Plans by Jake Root, on Flickr
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ErmineNotyours

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Re: Never-built highways of the Northwest
« Reply #102 on: May 12, 2021, 01:24:40 PM »

I have an undated Kroll Atlas of South Seattle, though judging from the railroad infrastructure it must have come out shortly after the Burlington Northern merger of 1970.  Here they show the area of a 509 southern extension through Des Moines as if it were a done deal.  They are only now maybe making an extension that turns quickly to I-5 and runs on either side of that to Kent-Des Moines Road.  Parts of the right-of-way have turned into nature parks.



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jakeroot

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Re: Never-built highways of the Northwest
« Reply #103 on: May 12, 2021, 02:15:00 PM »

Great scans Arthur. Thanks for sharing.

It's interesting that, apart from this short on-ramp stub and visible ROW (definitely diamond-shaped, which I never noticed before!), there really is no evidence at Des Moines Memorial Drive that 509 was to ever go further south.

I am curious to know when they changed the design of that southern 509 interchange into a trumpet. Clearly it's superior to a diamond, which would have had two left turns rather than all-right turns as we have now. Still, most stubs usually take the design the original design, as they are meant to be finished eventually.
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compdude787

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Re: Never-built highways of the Northwest
« Reply #104 on: May 12, 2021, 06:18:38 PM »

Interestingly enough, if you look at the aerial view in Google maps, you can see there actually is ROW for the SR 509 freeway cleared all the way down to SR 516.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2021, 01:16:19 AM by compdude787 »
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ErmineNotyours

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Re: Never-built highways of the Northwest
« Reply #105 on: May 12, 2021, 11:38:28 PM »

I looked at the map more closely and noticed my school, Earlington Elementary School, is on the map.  That opened in 1972, so that helps contain the date.  The date stamped onto the Des Moines Memorial Drive overcrossing is 1979, so they had a few years to think about it.
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Bruce

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Re: Never-built highways of the Northwest
« Reply #106 on: May 13, 2021, 12:11:22 AM »

That's a great find. I never realized that original SR 509 plan was to swing even further south...perhaps the connection with I-5 would have happened at the Midway Landfill then?

ErmineNotyours

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Re: Never-built highways of the Northwest
« Reply #107 on: May 14, 2021, 12:41:21 AM »

It might have bypassed I-5 entirely and headed straight for the Port of Tacoma.
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ErmineNotyours

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Re: Never-built highways of the Northwest
« Reply #108 on: May 14, 2021, 01:01:05 AM »

Hey, you were right, it was planned to swing through the landfill.  Then later at Federal Way it was to tap on to the end of SR 18.

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jakeroot

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Re: Never-built highways of the Northwest
« Reply #109 on: May 14, 2021, 01:57:23 AM »

Woah, more cool maps!

I'm not sure I've ever seen a map showing the 509-18 connection. I've always heard that 509 was meant to traverse then-rural King County to an interchange with 18 at I-5; seems development simply occurred too quickly for them to capitalise on the open land.

I see from this document that the beginning of 18 was officially amended from 509 to 99 in the late 80s, yet I recall some discussion of that freeway still being built even into the 90s. Nevertheless, I still cannot picture how it would have descended down to port level. That's a hell of a drop.

EDIT: the top scan also shows a one-way couplet through downtown Des Moines. I don't recall that ever happening either. But I'll be more than happy to be proven wrong.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2021, 02:54:09 AM by jakeroot »
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ErmineNotyours

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Re: Never-built highways of the Northwest
« Reply #110 on: May 31, 2021, 07:57:39 PM »

I'm surprised these haven't been posted before:


(The second one counts because of the never-built northern extension of Harbor Drive.)
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ErmineNotyours

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Re: Never-built highways of the Northwest
« Reply #111 on: June 01, 2021, 12:29:26 AM »

And here's the book shown in the two videos:

Portland Improvement, by Robert Moses (PDF)
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Bickendan

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Re: Never-built highways of the Northwest
« Reply #112 on: June 01, 2021, 06:08:56 AM »

I found both of those to be very well presented and as objective as possible in a topic that can get very very subjective.
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Stephane Dumas

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Re: Never-built highways of the Northwest
« Reply #113 on: June 08, 2021, 09:55:56 AM »

I don't know if we could include this one, since it's far northwest in Alaska, the Highway to Highway aka H2H project who was supposed to link the freeways portions of Glenn Hwy with Seward Hwy. Is it still dormant or being cancelled?  I also found the old project site on the Wayback Machine. https://web.archive.org/web/20090114130517/http://www.highway2highway.com/
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dmuzika

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Re: Never-built highways of the Northwest
« Reply #114 on: June 18, 2021, 01:15:15 AM »

Less grand than some of the cancelled freeway proposals, but I saw something that Washington considered rerouting US 395 to WA-25 north of Kettle Falls. If completed, it would have linked US 395 to Trail and Castlegar, as opposed ending at BC-3 2.5 miles north of the border.
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Bruce

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Re: Never-built highways of the Northwest
« Reply #115 on: June 18, 2021, 02:32:02 AM »

Less grand than some of the cancelled freeway proposals, but I saw something that Washington considered rerouting US 395 to WA-25 north of Kettle Falls. If completed, it would have linked US 395 to Trail and Castlegar, as opposed ending at BC-3 2.5 miles north of the border.

It went even further than that: a few other non-SR 25 corridors were proposed.

This newspaper clipping has a map of them: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/79780710/highway-395-plan-controversial/

sparker

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Re: Never-built highways of the Northwest
« Reply #116 on: June 18, 2021, 04:50:04 AM »

Less grand than some of the cancelled freeway proposals, but I saw something that Washington considered rerouting US 395 to WA-25 north of Kettle Falls. If completed, it would have linked US 395 to Trail and Castlegar, as opposed ending at BC-3 2.5 miles north of the border.

It went even further than that: a few other non-SR 25 corridors were proposed.

This newspaper clipping has a map of them: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/79780710/highway-395-plan-controversial/



When was this reroute proposed; was it a WashDOT proposal or floated elsewhere; and what was the stated rationale behind the concept?  One would think that BC interests might have propagated the notion to put US 395's border crossing considerably closer to the resort/populated areas (i.e. Trail, Castlegar, and Nelson) in the Columbia watershed than the current crossing to the west. 
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dmuzika

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Re: Never-built highways of the Northwest
« Reply #117 on: June 29, 2021, 03:49:31 PM »

Does anyone have any insight as to why that alignment and border crossing was originally chosen?
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KEK Inc.

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Re: Never-built highways of the Northwest
« Reply #118 on: June 30, 2021, 05:47:44 PM »

Kelowna BC is growing rapidly. Could there be a Spokane-Kelowna-Kamloops freeway connection in the near future?
Chelan and Wenatchee are growing; however, I donít see blewitt pass getting a freeway or expressway.

International travel in Osoyoos is still not justified.  Omak and okonagen are still tiny towns.  I could see an upgrade to US-97 alt between Wenatchee and chelan in the next few decades, and upgrades to WA-28 and a better link to I-90 in Grant county might happen.


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dmuzika

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Re: Never-built highways of the Northwest
« Reply #119 on: July 02, 2021, 04:24:21 PM »

Kelowna BC is growing rapidly. Could there be a Spokane-Kelowna-Kamloops freeway connection in the near future?

Maybe the first step could be a more direct two lane highway between Kelowna and Castlegar, from there traffic could head south to Spokane. I don't think the demand would be there for a 4 lane highway between the two cities.
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sparker

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Re: Never-built highways of the Northwest
« Reply #120 on: July 02, 2021, 09:48:21 PM »

Kelowna BC is growing rapidly. Could there be a Spokane-Kelowna-Kamloops freeway connection in the near future?

Maybe the first step could be a more direct two lane highway between Kelowna and Castlegar, from there traffic could head south to Spokane. I don't think the demand would be there for a 4 lane highway between the two cities.

Aside from some regional deliveries, including cross-border runs, US 395 north of Spokane isn't much of an interregional commercial corridor; the closest to that would be US 95 over in Idaho, which features more long-haul traffic, particularly from Seattle/Tacoma ports to Calgary and Edmonton.  There's a lot of LCL (less-than-carload) merchandise traffic that goes direct truck rather than a rail transfer, including a lot of higher-ticket electronics and other consumer merchandise (it tends to get to its destination sooner rather than dwell in a railyard); and 95/93 to either BC/AL 3 or even TC-1 over to Calgary (then up AL 2 to Edmonton as needed) is considerably shorter than schlepping through Montana.  There's a reason ID is gradually improving US 95 north of I-90, and it's cross-border commercial traffic.  Spokane isn't a major distribution hub at present; so there aren't too many large trucks heading NNW up US 395 to the smaller inland BC cities and towns.  A 4-lane facility probably isn't warranted there, and unlikely to be in the near term.  While Kelowna may be growing, it is likely to be adquately commercially served from the Vancouver distribution hub; traffic south to E. WA will be primarily recreational or incidental, which doesn't portend well for significant capacity increases.     
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Bruce

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Re: Never-built highways of the Northwest
« Reply #121 on: September 14, 2021, 01:03:45 AM »

A new one I just unearthed while digging around newspaper archives in Lewiston: Will new bridge link highways, or streets? (Oct. 20, 1979)

The Washington Legislative Transportation Committee considered creating a "SR 130" for the road leading to the Southway Bridge between Clarkston and Lewiston. It describes a new road that would follow what is now Fleshman Way and then cut across to US 12.

Despite the number, it wouldn't be too far-fetched as a US 12 spur, as SR 131 was designated in 1991.

Bonus find: a relic of Idaho's attempted conversion to metric in 1977: Metrics: The conversion will be 'hard' indeed (May 22, 1977).

« Last Edit: September 14, 2021, 01:23:21 AM by Bruce »
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Quillz

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Re: Never-built highways of the Northwest
« Reply #122 on: September 14, 2021, 03:37:40 AM »

I-82 was originally planned to go to Seattle.  I always wondered about the backstory on that one.

Rick

The original plan was Ellensburg to Pendelton, but Washington wanted to add the rest of the US 410 corridor to Tacoma and ultimately Aberdeen in 1959 (see this news report). A key part of the plan would have been a tunnel under Naches Pass, which obviously didn't pan out.

Similarly, Oregon threw out proposals to have I-80N (later I-84) extend up to Astoria.


When I was in middle school, the library had been donated an old, leather bound, road atlas from the 1960s. In it, the road over Snoqualmie Pass was designated I-82.  I also recall seeing images of plans to convert US-12, to I-82, all the way to Aberdeen.


It is too bad that Oregon doesn't have a safe way to get to the coast, as all the routes are massively undersized for the traffic that uses them.
I vacation to Oregon a lot, I don't live there, but US-20 seems pretty adequate to me. I just drove it a couple weeks ago and it's four lanes all the way to Philomath, and the speed limit is generally 55-60 or so. Compared to other crossings such as OR-126 or OR-34, it seems a lot better. But I'm barely seeing any real traffic patterns because I'm usually on there for a couple weeks at a time.
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Bickendan

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Re: Never-built highways of the Northwest
« Reply #123 on: September 14, 2021, 03:47:55 AM »

I-82 was originally planned to go to Seattle.  I always wondered about the backstory on that one.

Rick

The original plan was Ellensburg to Pendelton, but Washington wanted to add the rest of the US 410 corridor to Tacoma and ultimately Aberdeen in 1959 (see this news report). A key part of the plan would have been a tunnel under Naches Pass, which obviously didn't pan out.

Similarly, Oregon threw out proposals to have I-80N (later I-84) extend up to Astoria.


When I was in middle school, the library had been donated an old, leather bound, road atlas from the 1960s. In it, the road over Snoqualmie Pass was designated I-82.  I also recall seeing images of plans to convert US-12, to I-82, all the way to Aberdeen.


It is too bad that Oregon doesn't have a safe way to get to the coast, as all the routes are massively undersized for the traffic that uses them.
I vacation to Oregon a lot, I don't live there, but US-20 seems pretty adequate to me. I just drove it a couple weeks ago and it's four lanes all the way to Philomath, and the speed limit is generally 55-60 or so. Compared to other crossings such as OR-126 or OR-34, it seems a lot better. But I'm barely seeing any real traffic patterns because I'm usually on there for a couple weeks at a time.
I like OR 126... once you clear Veneta. That's not a difficult Coastal crossing, in terms of driving or traffic. US 20 is better now with the Crystal Creek Loop bypass, but it's also busier.
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Alps

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Re: Never-built highways of the Northwest
« Reply #124 on: September 14, 2021, 07:41:05 PM »

A new one I just unearthed while digging around newspaper archives in Lewiston: Will new bridge link highways, or streets? (Oct. 20, 1979)

The Washington Legislative Transportation Committee considered creating a "SR 130" for the road leading to the Southway Bridge between Clarkston and Lewiston. It describes a new road that would follow what is now Fleshman Way and then cut across to US 12.

Despite the number, it wouldn't be too far-fetched as a US 12 spur, as SR 131 was designated in 1991.

Bonus find: a relic of Idaho's attempted conversion to metric in 1977: Metrics: The conversion will be 'hard' indeed (May 22, 1977).


k/h? We don't talk about 40 m/h.

 


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