Wisconsin notes

[Stephane Dumas]

There's also a non-zero chance in the future of I-41/94 needing further widening and requiring the ROW that the frontage roads occupy. It makes little sense to download them to local municipalties just to turn around and have to reclaim them with eminent domain.

Now then you mention it, I wonder if WISDOT might have some regrets to not have converted some parts of the service roads as one-way service roads like the ones on I-43 in downtown Milwaukee near Marquette University and the numerous ones in Texas?

[The Ghostbuster]

Texas is a unique state. They do things there they don't do elsewhere, such as building continuous frontage roads. While it would make sense to make the Interstate 41/94 frontage roads one-way, I doubt it will ever happen.

[JREwing78]

I agree. The area along I-41/94 isn't so built-out that one-way frontage roads are needed. WisDOT would've had to create more over/underpasses along I-41/94 to accommodate traffic attempting to navigate to their desired destination along the frontage roads. They went to considerable expense to realign and improve the frontage road alignment during the last rebuild so that one-way frontage roads wouldn't be necessary.

[peterj920]

Wisconsin is reconstructing all new freeways with the most modern designs and probably spends more on interchanges than most states. There probably won't be another cloverleaf ever built and the ones that remain will be gone when there's a major reconstruction project.

With that being said Wisconsin eliminated all of the braided ramps between I-94 and the Frontage Roads and WISDOT said that they did not meet modern design standards. Yet in Texas the braided ramps remain with the on/off ramps still fed in/out of the frontage roads. If it's a dated design how does Texas continue to have off ramps merge into the frontage roads? I understand that the frontage roads are one way but separating the frontage roads and ramps would still be safer since traffic exiting a freeway has to cross over several lanes to make a right turn if there's heavy traffic.

[mgk920]

Wisconsin is reconstructing all new freeways with the most modern designs and probably spends more on interchanges than most states. There probably won't be another cloverleaf ever built and the ones that remain will be gone when there's a major reconstruction project.

With that being said Wisconsin eliminated all of the braided ramps between I-94 and the Frontage Roads and WISDOT said that they did not meet modern design standards. Yet in Texas the braided ramps remain with the on/off ramps still fed in/out of the frontage roads. If it's a dated design how does Texas continue to have off ramps merge into the frontage roads? I understand that the frontage roads are one way but separating the frontage roads and ramps would still be safer since traffic exiting a freeway has to cross over several lanes to make a right turn if there's heavy traffic.

The biggest question in my mind as a NE WI local is the eventual fate of US 10 between I-39 and the east city limits of Stevens Point (yeah, a relatively minor local area).  The long argued and planned east bypass highway was unceremoniously NIMBYed a decade or so ago, but that traffic isn't going anywhere and that street looks like it could work as a 'Texas-style' freeway with one-way frontage roads in the urban area.

Mike

[triplemultiplex]

Different mentality up here than in Texas regarding frontage roads among engineers, I suppose.  They focus on keeping freeway traffic separated from local traffic whenever they can and bring that approach to frontage roads.  It's not just avoiding the Texas-style one-way frontage roads, WisDOT seems to swing frontage roads out farther from the ramp terminals than they used to.  They're so deferential to intersection spacing on the surface road that they'll spend more money on r/w for frontage roads to build them further from the interchange then one might necessarily need to for the new configuration to function.

This makes the frontage roads longer and carves up more property lines than keeping them tight to the freeway.  But it does accomplish the goal of keeping surface traffic away from freeway traffic.

The one real example of Texas-style frontage roads is in Milwaukee along I-43 north of downtown, but even then, that was mostly an artifact of using the existing street grid to minimize r/w in an urban setting.

[JREwing78]

One thing Texas has that Wisconsin doesn't is that requirement for property access from any road anywhere at any time. I'm quite OK with that, honestly. It's seriously expensive to build out freeways with continuous frontage roads, and the result is an endless sprawl of commercial businesses between point A and point B.

I-41/94 is more of an artifact of old-time planning than a blueprint for how a major Interstate highway *should* be built out. It was built before the Interstate system as US-41, before Interstate design standards were developed and people understood the need for limited access on such a roadway. Much of the 4-lane "expressway" US-41 was built out this way; the lessons learned from that and from roads like Madison's Beltline Highway guided how WisDOT handled later expressway builds. Namely, they give homes and businesses more space, and more aggressively practice access management.

Subsequent conversion of US-41 to an Interstate required the buildout of the frontage roads because that was cheaper than buying out every home, farm, and business along the right-of way. But the section south of Milwaukee was done in the late 1950s, when design standards were still rather lax. Continuous frontage roads with exits onto and off the main freeway aren't necessarily dated, but the design used on I-41/94 was dated. Worse, it left no room to expand the Interstate years later when it was clear even 6 lanes wasn't going to cut it. 

Wisely, I think, WisDOT made the investment to reconstruct the frontage roads properly when I-41/94 was rebuilt. While WisDOT could have emulated the Texas model, in a lot of places there simply wasn't room, and in many places they had to move the frontage roads behind properties or else buy them out. That's a seriously expensive proposition.

It made more sense to maintain the frontage roads as 2-way roadways and separate out that traffic from traffic entering and exiting the Interstate.

[SEWIGuy]

One thing Texas has that Wisconsin doesn't is that requirement for property access from any road anywhere at any time. I'm quite OK with that, honestly. It's seriously expensive to build out freeways with continuous frontage roads, and the result is an endless sprawl of commercial businesses between point A and point B.

I-41/94 is more of an artifact of old-time planning than a blueprint for how a major Interstate highway *should* be built out. It was built before the Interstate system as US-41, before Interstate design standards were developed and people understood the need for limited access on such a roadway. Much of the 4-lane "expressway" US-41 was built out this way; the lessons learned from that and from roads like Madison's Beltline Highway guided how WisDOT handled later expressway builds. Namely, they give homes and businesses more space, and more aggressively practice access management.

Subsequent conversion of US-41 to an Interstate required the buildout of the frontage roads because that was cheaper than buying out every home, farm, and business along the right-of way. But the section south of Milwaukee was done in the late 1950s, when design standards were still rather lax. Continuous frontage roads with exits onto and off the main freeway aren't necessarily dated, but the design used on I-41/94 was dated. Worse, it left no room to expand the Interstate years later when it was clear even 6 lanes wasn't going to cut it. 

Wisely, I think, WisDOT made the investment to reconstruct the frontage roads properly when I-41/94 was rebuilt. While WisDOT could have emulated the Texas model, in a lot of places there simply wasn't room, and in many places they had to move the frontage roads behind properties or else buy them out. That's a seriously expensive proposition.

It made more sense to maintain the frontage roads as 2-way roadways and separate out that traffic from traffic entering and exiting the Interstate.

Very well stated.

[The Ghostbuster]

Originally, US 41 started at the state line and followed existing STH 31 to STH 50, went west on 50 to 88th Ave./CTH H, went north on H to 38th St./CTH S (then STH 43 and later STH 142), and went west along present-day S to the existing Interstate 41/94 freeway before continuing north from there. The portion along the present-day Interstate 41/94 corridor was CTH W. Then in 1936, CTH W became a relocation of US 41's route, with old 41 becoming STH 31, although the portion along 88th Ave. became STH 192 in 1947 (192 become H in 1990), when 31 was relocated to follow its present-day alignment to a new terminus at STH 38. It wouldn't be extended to STH 42 (became STH 32 in 1951) until 1950.

[Big John]

Looks like the Wis 54/Mason Street Bridge is possibly going to be replaced in the next decade. On the NE Region project site there's a new page on a study on the bridge. No alternatives have been decided on yet. By the time the project begins the bridge will be 60 years old.

If there is reconstruction a new bridge should stay close to the current configuration with some changes. An auxiliary lane extended from Ashland Ave would be helpful since there's way more traffic from that entrance than Broadway. The Broadway half interchange probably isn't needed.

The other 2 Downtown bridges have issues with bridges opening for boats and long trains that backup traffic. Mason St is the only bridge that passes over the railway and is high enough to avoid opening for most boats, although it has to open for the occasional large ship. If the current short freeway works, why mess with it?

WisDOT is holding a public information meeting on November 14 at Washington Middle School with alternatives and public input.

[Revive 755]

There's also a non-zero chance in the future of I-41/94 needing further widening and requiring the ROW that the frontage roads occupy. It makes little sense to download them to local municipalties just to turn around and have to reclaim them with eminent domain.

IMHO, if I-41/I-94 needs further widening south of Milwaukee beyond auxiliary lanes between some of the interchanges then WisDOT needs to look at making another north-south corridor more attractive such as US 45; a WI 83/WI 164 combo; or a Lake Parkway extension.  Otherwise it starts to become a repeat of the 'eggs in one basket'/funnel situation that exists with the Borman in NW Indiana where maintenance or an incident that causes a long term closure is or will be very painful.

[hobsini2]

There's also a non-zero chance in the future of I-41/94 needing further widening and requiring the ROW that the frontage roads occupy. It makes little sense to download them to local municipalties just to turn around and have to reclaim them with eminent domain.

IMHO, if I-41/I-94 needs further widening south of Milwaukee beyond auxiliary lanes between some of the interchanges then WisDOT needs to look at making another north-south corridor more attractive such as US 45; a WI 83/WI 164 combo; or a Lake Parkway extension.  Otherwise it starts to become a repeat of the 'eggs in one basket'/funnel situation that exists with the Borman in NW Indiana where maintenance or an incident that causes a long term closure is or will be very painful.

One could make the case that Hwy 31 is that road as an alternate. It already is a 4 lane divided highway through Kenosha and Racine. I do like the idea of the Lake Parkway coming into Wisconsin. Perhaps tie it into Hwy 36 around Burlington and Waterford. I will work on that in the fantasy section.

[JREwing78]

There's also a non-zero chance in the future of I-41/94 needing further widening and requiring the ROW that the frontage roads occupy. It makes little sense to download them to local municipalties just to turn around and have to reclaim them with eminent domain.

IMHO, if I-41/I-94 needs further widening south of Milwaukee beyond auxiliary lanes between some of the interchanges then WisDOT needs to look at making another north-south corridor more attractive such as US 45; a WI 83/WI 164 combo; or a Lake Parkway extension.  Otherwise it starts to become a repeat of the 'eggs in one basket'/funnel situation that exists with the Borman in NW Indiana where maintenance or an incident that causes a long term closure is or will be very painful.

One could make the case that Hwy 31 is that road as an alternate. It already is a 4 lane divided highway through Kenosha and Racine. I do like the idea of the Lake Parkway coming into Wisconsin. Perhaps tie it into Hwy 36 around Burlington and Waterford. I will work on that in the fantasy section.

The chances that Illinois would play ball with a new N-S freeway are on par with pigs taking flight. I also doubt Wisconsin is all that interested in building another freeway to nowhere (like the US-12 freeway between Elkhorn and the IL state line).

[peterj920]

Looking at the US 10 passing lanes project I found this map of designated passing lanes corridors. I wonder how many of these roads will see additional passing lanes in the future?

https://wisconsindot.gov/Documents/projects/by-region/ne/10pass/plc10.pdf

[The Ghostbuster]

Since they are likely never going to expand any additional portions of US 10 from two to four lanes, they probably should build more passing lanes along Wisconsin's two-lane roadways. Also, that map is dated January 2000, so maybe some (or all) of those passing lanes projects have already been implemented.

[invincor]

Well, I see Pierce County has some passing lanes listed on that map, and nothing has happened with that yet. 

US 10 from Prescott to Ellsworth is supposed to get redone soon.  I haven't seen passing lanes listed for that anywhere in its project files, but I guess we'll find out next year (if they stay on schedule).

[peterj920]

Well, I see Pierce County has some passing lanes listed on that map, and nothing has happened with that yet. 

US 10 from Prescott to Ellsworth is supposed to get redone soon.  I haven't seen passing lanes listed for that anywhere in its project files, but I guess we'll find out next year (if they stay on schedule).

There are quite a few sections of US 63 that have passing lanes between US 8 and US 2. I feel like US 63 is the most underrated US highway in Wisconsin. It carries a good amount of traffic and serves quite a few northern vacation areas such as Hayward, Spooner, and Cumberland.

As for US 10, never say never on expansion. It does connect Appleton and Manitowoc. The Ariens have a goal of growing my hometown of Brillion to 5,000. I feel like that's a dream but if they'd somehow do that it would put more traffic on US 10.

[mgk920]

Well, I see Pierce County has some passing lanes listed on that map, and nothing has happened with that yet. 

US 10 from Prescott to Ellsworth is supposed to get redone soon.  I haven't seen passing lanes listed for that anywhere in its project files, but I guess we'll find out next year (if they stay on schedule).

There are quite a few sections of US 63 that have passing lanes between US 8 and US 2. I feel like US 63 is the most underrated US highway in Wisconsin. It carries a good amount of traffic and serves quite a few northern vacation areas such as Hayward, Spooner, and Cumberland.

As for US 10, never say never on expansion. It does connect Appleton and Manitowoc. The Ariens have a goal of growing my hometown of Brillion to 5,000. I feel like that's a dream but if they'd somehow do that it would put more traffic on US 10.

For a long time now,  I have been considering it to be a complete 'natural' that US 10 between Appleton and Manitowoc become a mirror of WI 23 between Fond du Lac and Sheboygan, With it being rerouted to feed into the WI 441 freeway with a new 'piggybacked' directional 'T' and street interchange at College Ave on Appleton's eastern edge, then to follow present-day Outagamie County 'CE' eastward past Kaukauna (I can't help but think of that road being a great future US 10 whenever I drive it), continuing cross-country as an upgradable 'Super-two' freeway past Hollandtown to rejoin the existing US 10 at Forest Junction.  To me, it is so 'natural' a reroute that I am very surprised that it has not yet even been talked about at informal levels locally.

Mike

[SEWIGuy]

Well, I see Pierce County has some passing lanes listed on that map, and nothing has happened with that yet. 

US 10 from Prescott to Ellsworth is supposed to get redone soon.  I haven't seen passing lanes listed for that anywhere in its project files, but I guess we'll find out next year (if they stay on schedule).

There are quite a few sections of US 63 that have passing lanes between US 8 and US 2. I feel like US 63 is the most underrated US highway in Wisconsin. It carries a good amount of traffic and serves quite a few northern vacation areas such as Hayward, Spooner, and Cumberland.

As for US 10, never say never on expansion. It does connect Appleton and Manitowoc. The Ariens have a goal of growing my hometown of Brillion to 5,000. I feel like that's a dream but if they'd somehow do that it would put more traffic on US 10.

It's probably been about 15 years since I have been on US-63 between Spooner and Ashland, but it is a very nicely built and maintained road. I also think there isn't a highway in Wisconsin that has remained as close to its original routing.

[Great Lakes Roads]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBQdJcDN9lk

Completion of WIS 15 expansion - Outagamie County

[mgk920]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBQdJcDN9lk

Completion of WIS 15 expansion - Outagamie County

The long planned and anticipated Hortonville bypass.



The WI 15/US 45 'Old' road through town is now a westward extension of Outagamie County 'JJ'.

Mike

[The Ghostbuster]

The completed Hortonville bypass now shows up on Google Maps: https://www.google.com/maps/@35.7471584,-81.3682678,3235m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu. The Street View for the corridor was last updated in August 2018, so we'll have to wait to see the completed four-lane roadway.

[Big John]

^^ Link leads me to a Hwy 321 in Hickory NC

[The Ghostbuster]

DAMN GOOGLE MAPS! I was looking at US 321 in response to a thread in the Southeast Forum. Let me know if this shows Hortonville and it's new bypass: https://www.google.com/maps/@44.3360799,-88.683795,9652m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu.

[Big John]

^^ Yes that is the new route, but the bypass shows no route indication and the old route, including new pavement  near the roundabouts, still is shown as hwy 15.